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So I have this problem of talking to everybody the same. I met a few girls at orientation and introduced myself but I noticed that I talk to them the same way I talk to guys. I ask where they're from, sports they play, majors and interests, etc. I feel really uncomfortable getting sexual during the first interaction I have with them especially because it's during orientation groups.

Once I get to know them and be around them for a while I have no problem getting sexual but as the great Pook says "As a friend she sees you, a friend you will be" so this ends with me in the friendzone with her(?).

Any advice?

[–]Senior ContributorOmLaLa 173 points174 points  (55 children)

Do NOT talk to them like you'd talk to men. Do NOT talk to them like you've previously talked to women. Talk to them in their language.

I'll explain.

Women communicate through actions and body language. What she says isn't inherently important. It's what she does that matters.

That being said, she's watching your body language and actions moreso than she's listening to your words.

Act like you don' want her, the rest'll follow. Let her rationalize things on her own. Don't try to think or conclude for her. It'll come off as pleading or compensating.

This is all considered establishing frame. You must maintain this even after you've met in person. DO NOT pay attention to the words she says. Watch how she acts, her body language. Is she positioning herself closer to you than normal? Is her body pointed towards you more oft than not? Does she keep eye contact? Does she smile more oft than usual? Does she touch you occasionally?

ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE VERY INTENTIONAL. Women communicate this way i.e. covertly. They "talk" with actions and body language and read yours for responses.

If YOU'RE constantly keeping eye contact, sitting too close for no reason, randomly touching her, etc. she'll read you as too interested. Too invested. Too desperate.

Watch her and dial your body language two notches behind hers. Let her touch you more than you touch her. Touch her once to establish you're physically interested. This is required for some women so they know to proceed. Do it early so she has enough time to consider it.

If you're not juggling plates, let her believe you are. Look at your phone from time to time and smirk. Look at other women with her around and let her know you're looking. Let her know she's not the only women you're considering WITHOUT OUTRIGHT SAYING IT. All of this should be communicated without having to say it aloud.

Remember (please remember because this is literally the most important point here), women do not DO NOT communicate through words. Men do that. Women communicate through ACTIONS, BODY LANGUAGE AND INTENTIONS.

Meaning if you say you just wan't to be friends but your actions and body language show you want to bend her over the railings, she'll read into that and consider you a liar. Just like if she acts disinterested, turns away from you and checks her phone every 2 seconds instead of talking to you yet says she loves you, you'll take her words at face value because men weigh words heavily.

Break eye contact more oft than her. Let conversations die. Feel comfortable keeping silence between you two and don't worry about what she thinks about it or if she'll leave. Trust me, she won't. Make her start conversations more oft than you. Be blunt but not too forward. Don't smile often, only when it's deserved (i.e. when you actually think somethings funny). These are ALL strong frame indicators. THESE ARE WHAT SHE'S LOOKING FOR. This is why most girls'll say they "want to be friends first" on dating sites; they have to see signs like this before they can be sexual.

It's kind of like if you were dating in Israel and every woman you came across wore one of those sheet covering their entire body. You wouldn't know what you were dealing with until you got to the bedroom. Heck, some could even be guys! So you might meet for coffee first to get a chance to check for curves under the sheet or a casual slip revealing some details of what's underneath.

THIS IS WHAT WOMEN ARE DOING THROUGH SHIT TESTS. Attractiveness is only half of it. You need strong frame as well, which isn't inherently apparent like physicality is for men. The more she likes from what she sees underneath that sheet, the more likely she is to fuck you.

[–]laere 55 points56 points  (7 children)

The main sub needs more of this and less awalt shit

[–]Senior ContributorOmLaLa 34 points35 points  (5 children)

Working on it now.

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[–]Senior ContributorOmLaLa 3 points4 points  (2 children)

This shouldn't depress you. This should open your eyes to a better way of obtaining what you want.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Point taken, but there's a positive way of talking about the same news, and you're good at framing things in that context. The majority of AWALT posters don't frame their field reports in that way.

[–]Senior ContributorOmLaLa 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I try my hardest to make my message as enjoyable and easy to swallow as possible.

[–]Myrpl 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And that book about low and high reward lifestyle. hint hint

[–][deleted] 17 points18 points  (1 child)

this is single handedly the most important piece of advice that will improve 80%+ of the results most men struggle with.

[–]Senior ContributorOmLaLa 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Already started working on the next "RP Guide to Defeating the Enemy" with this as its focus.

[–]Chinny4daWinny[S] 10 points11 points  (2 children)

Oh damn. I've been trying to say the right things instead of doing them. Thanks a whole lot man.

[–]KingoftheAssholes 7 points8 points  (1 child)

What Every BODY is Saying by Joe Navarro is a great book on reading body language.

[–]account_rp 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Thanks, I'm also downloading a copy of his other book "The Art of Influence."

[–]Merwebb 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Womanese 101

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[–]Senior ContributorOmLaLa 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Depends on how you do it.

If you're looking down a lot or if your eyes jolt around sporadically, sure. If you casually catch her eye only when you speak or she says something that interests you while looking around the room at other women in between, moving your eyes slowly, turning your head instead of just moving your eyes it invokes "assumed nonchalance".

Yes this is important to turn your head along with your eyes. Don't believe me? Record yourself moving just your eyes towards things then turning your head with your gaze. The latter will come across a lot more confident. And yes, girls pick up on cues like this.

The difference here is dominance of the situation and displayed confidence.

[–]RICCIedm 5 points6 points  (1 child)

dude, you are fucking great

[–]Senior ContributorOmLaLa 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Thanks cough cough I know.

[–]SwallowRP 3 points3 points [recovered]

I love this post, though I'm a bit confused. I've always read in many places in TRP areas about how the man is the one who's going to escalate and to just assume attraction on her part. I finally went on my first hanging-out with a woman from OKC for the first time in many months and it was confusing... like who's the one who does the escalating?

[–]Senior ContributorOmLaLa 5 points6 points  (3 children)

You do, but WHEN you escalate and the DEGREE TO WHICH you escalate is determined by whether she's willing to receive it.

Escalating on a woman whose unreceptive because of the reasons I've listed will only destroy what chances you have left. But if you can recognize her "communication" and adjust herself mid-date, she'll warm back up to you.

I've saved a ton of dates this way. I was too excited, too into her, too stunned by her appearance that it leaked through my body language and they'd pick up on it.

I'd go to the bathroom, reassess, picture them as some fat slob I work with, then slowly but surely they'd warm back up.

Once you've left her (drove away, parted ways) and in turn have left her perception, the damage is done. You've then been assessed and categorized and it'll be near impossible to re-position yourself in a short duration with attempts to try only worsening your case (too tryhard).

[–]catgirlmasterrace 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Great advice, but what do you do if you see she is disinterested? Do you act disinterested too?(nonverbally) I feel that has sofar killed the situation for me tbh.

[–]Senior ContributorOmLaLa 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You move on and reassess your SMV. If she's disinterested, your SMV isn''t high enough compared to hers, no matter what you may think on the matter. It doesn't have to be justifiable, just don't try and combat it. Leave. Leaving should always be your best option in cases like this. Like physically walking away. If they see you voluntarily walk out of their perception, they may reassess your SMV in absence. May.

[–]Dsdcimyc 2 points3 points  (1 child)

This all sounds great while on a date. But what if you're stopping a girl during day or night game and you're just meeting her? The first approach is my main problem, I'd like to read your thoughts on it.

[–]Senior ContributorOmLaLa 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This should especially be applied when meeting for the first time. She'll see you in a light no girl thus far has seen you in.

[–]itsjustbantaman 3 points4 points  (4 children)

I understand this, but you need some talking on the surface level surely. How would you go about getting stronger at the sort of surface level conversations? Going from small talk to actually meaningful conversation to stop the conversation just dying.

[–]Senior ContributorOmLaLa 10 points11 points  (3 children)

Sure, there's talking. What I'm saying is the actual words don't matter as much if at all. I've talked to women about Excel and bedded her.

You DO NOT have in-depth conversations about thoughts or feelings women women if you want to fuck them. Save that for men. You keep it as basic as possible, EVEN IF they ask you in-depth questions. I swear on my grave, women don't fuck for your mind.

[–]dooblegoo 3 points4 points  (1 child)

They marry you for your mind. Which /= fucking.

[–]Senior ContributorOmLaLa 0 points1 point  (0 children)


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[–]Senior ContributorOmLaLa 2 points3 points  (5 children)

Online dating has become a specialty of mine. If you need some advice in the future, send me a PM. I check my inbox throughout the day.

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[–]Senior ContributorOmLaLa 2 points3 points  (0 children)

PUA is purely a numbers game. A shotgun. You keep it constant and shoot 100 times, ~10 are successful.

It's simple. It's easy. But it's short term and uncontrollable. There'll be times 3 women come in a row, other times you come up short 30 times solid.

What I'm proposing is constant adjustment to better your results. A sniper. Shoot 5, miss 4, figure out why you missed, adjust, shoot 5, miss 2.

It's difficult, it takes time, and it can be very humbling. But it's long term. You know what to expect from 90% of encounters with women, and when it fails you know exactly why and how to adjust for the next encounter.

Your success/attempt ratio may start very slowly, but when it picks up, it'll rise exponentially.

[–]Monkey_Jerk 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hope he replies because this has also been my experience due to social anxiety and because I'm not a hyperactive extrovert.

My theory is that with his technique it comes down to if the woman finds you physically attractive (or status). It's the only explanation I can think of the few times women were clearly interested in me.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

OmLaLa isn't saying to not approach. You're saying that you've been not engaging women due to social anxiety. That is the opposite of OmLaLas advice, he is saying engage all you want but you seal the deal (pass shit tests) with assumed mastery.

Women aren't ever going to open you.

[–]FarOrAMess 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Lol no worries dude we don't have many of this kind in Israel. Solid advice BTW, noted.

[–]SilentForTooLong 1 point2 points  (5 children)

You didn't list any actions to take though?...

I also don't really get this. It seems like every woman I've ever won over in my life has been through words. As a man, I've always mainly dealt in actions, which are specifically been the death of many relationships with women actually, as they have told me they needed me to say more words to them, as opposed to doing things to show them I loved them.

So I am bewildered by this world looks the exact opposite to the one you are describing. It feels like I'm reading something from a parallel universe.

[–]Senior ContributorOmLaLa 1 point2 points  (3 children)

It seems like every woman I've ever won over in my life has been through words.

It seems like that because as a guy that's what makes logical sense to you. I'm saying they didn't. You can NOT talk your way into bed. Or "convince" some girl with words to sleep with you. Your intention, confidence, body language, etc. lead you to those results but you may be accrediting the wrong thing for these successes.

If I got a girl's number every time I wore "lucky boxers" through trial and error I may think the boxers themselves are to be accredited to my success. But that'd be foolhardy. The real reason for success would be the assumed confidence gained by accrediting the "undisputed success" of the boxers; I put them on, I know they will get me numbers, so I behave in a way that in turn gets me numbers. Paradoxical in the positive way here, negative way by accrediting words.

I've always mainly dealt in actions, which are specifically been the death of many relationships with women actually, as they have told me they needed me to say more words to them, as opposed to doing things to show them I loved them.

It depends on the "actions" you're taking. I think there's a lot more at play in your situation. What type of relationships? Were you dating? If so, was your SMV constant? Did it drop? Be honest here. They said they want more words, but you're supposed to watch what they do. They'd want more words if they considered you a provider. Were you sweet and kind and affectionate? And what were your actions? Were they sweet too? Did you do things for them? Buy them things? Take them places? Hold hands? Touch affectionately and frequently? These aren't the actions I'm implying.

[–]SilentForTooLong -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

So how exactly did I manage to get women to sleep with me purely with text over the Internet then? Where was the body language exactly?

Were you sweet and kind and affectionate? And what were your actions? Were they sweet too? Did you do things for them? Buy them things? Take them places? Hold hands? Touch affectionately and frequently? These aren't the actions I'm implying.

The literal exact opposite of all that lol

[–]Senior ContributorOmLaLa 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I think you're misinterpreting a lot of what I'm trying to explain.

That or you're purposefully misrepresenting the obvious explanation I've put here.

[–]SilentForTooLong -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm not doing either thing. Just saying my personal experience runs directly counter to what you are saying as far as I can tell, so idk if you are preaching gospel truths really.

[–]THE__USURPER -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Can agree to an extent. I have had chicks around my finger because I am a good talker, and capable of stimulating conversation. They find me "interesting." Then there have been other times I have been an aggressive brute. Depends on the intelligence level of the female.

[–]getRedPill 1 point2 points  (1 child)

This deserves a post by itself. More of this and less whinery, which has become very common here.

[–]Senior ContributorOmLaLa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Working on it now. Expect it early next week.

[–]Snufek 1 point2 points  (2 children)

You said 'Break eye contact more oft than her.' Isn't it contrary to trp teachings about always breaking eye contact last? Or as I understand it now, just show her once or twice that I'm not afraid to eyefuck her and later don't bother?

[–]Senior ContributorOmLaLa 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Or as I understand it now, just show her once or twice that I'm not afraid to eyefuck her and later don't bother?

Stick with this. Right now I'm mindfully of my audience, and knowing a lot of guys reading this are new, it's better to start off this way. We are talking feigned confidence. You can't feign "breaking eye contact last" because if the confidence isn't genuine or if your SMV is lower than your pride'll let you see, you'll come off as "thirsty".

Isn't it contrary to trp teachings about always breaking eye contact last?

Picture a fat guy staring a chick down until she looks away. Technically, he's following the instructions correctly. But he'll misunderstand her break of eye contact for dominance when it was actually disgust or disinterest.

There's no mistaking a guy whose looking at other women instead of the one in front of him as anything other than disinterest. That's the key here. It's a lower tier RP methodology, sure. But it's also harder to misconstrue.

[–]willowhawk 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Small point. When you do break eye contact look up or to the side, this communicates superiority and or disinterested whereas looking down signals submissive behaviour.

It's why women normally look down and then back up with a smile. They're displaying there submission to you.

[–]Gawernator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do you mean Saudi Arabia? Lol. Not to nitpick. Good post!

I'm really trying to deal with balancing keeping "the frame" even though I'm getting really strong feelings for my girl. Or does this only apply for picking up girls? I mean we are at the point where it's happy go lucky and smiling at each other a lot

[–]RocketManV 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I hate that there isn't a save function on mu mobile app.

[–]red_pill_throw_away 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How then, does one escalate or as you mentioned establish interest? I am fairly good at what you outlined but where I fuck up is crossing that line between sexual tension in a smooth and successful way. Do I tell her verbally? Kino is not easy when the girl is shy and you're being aloof.

[–]afroose 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Comment saved.

[–]robotghow -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Nobody wears sheets in Israel.

[–]FrameWalker 12 points13 points  (10 children)

/u/OmLaLa gives solid advice. It works. Feigning disinterest is the first thing guys usually learn, but it's not the whole story. The real challenge is communicating sexual interest while communicating abundance and zero neediness.

Playing coy might get some girls to chase but for the ordinary man it will lead to a whole lot of nothing. OmLaLa probably exudes so much confidence and sex pheromones that women already know he's a sexual being and automatically start thinking about sex. For you more sexual intent must be demonstrated.

Women get turned on largely by how turned on you are. If you are very turned on by them and they sense it they'll get wet. If you act needy they get dry.

What OmLaLa does: touch them once and then back off is a good approach. You can Escalate more as they warm up. The interaction can be broken down into two exchanges

  1. Building comfort / supplicating (pull)
  2. Escalating / Breaking rapport (push)

Nice guys go 100% pull and it's needy. Too much push will scare 90% of girls. You do a bit of both. It's all very subtle. Since it's not the words that count go ahead and have the same sports convo, but physically push them away and pull them back in. You can warmly tease them and then validate them for the same effect. Start small and build up

[–]Senior ContributorOmLaLa 6 points7 points  (7 children)

Women get turned on largely by how turned on you are.

For you more sexual intent must be demonstrated.

Feigning disinterest is the first thing guys usually learn

Yes, yes, yes. New guys if you want to have sex with multiple women as easily as possible, ingrain this deep deep into your skulls.

Women mimic the mood of the moment. If you're disinterested, she'll want to become more interesting to repair the "mood". If you're sexual, she turn sexual to match the "mood".

Even if you're crazy attracted to her, you HAVE to pretend you're not. Even I get choked up by women from time to time. The key is they'll never know from the way I present myself.

[–]MovieCommenter09 4 points5 points  (6 children)

Women mimic the mood of the moment. If you're disinterested, she'll want to become more interesting to repair the "mood". If you're sexual, she turn sexual to match the "mood".

Statement 1 = "Women do the opposite of what you do."

Statement 2 = "Women do the same as you do."

Only one of these can be true as a guiding principle, as they are contradictory.

So which is it?

[–]Senior ContributorOmLaLa 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Statement 1: Women do the opposite.

Wanting to become more interesting isn't the opposite of you acting disinterested, it's a result of it. Her acting interested would be the opposite. Most women feel like their attractive and the center of attention 90% of the time because of the high degree of validation they're surrounded by.

By acting disinterested in your body language, you convey that you consider her of a lower SMV than you. She'll want to know why first. Shit test. After that, she'll want to prove you wrong as you're now contradicting everything she's witnessed thus far regarding men's interests. She'll want to become whatever you are interested in in order to revert back to what she's come to expect from men. "Poker with Black Widows" was a good example of this.

Statement 2: Women do the same.

This is tried and true due to ASD. Women rarely make the first move for fear of being considered a slut in the societal eye. You can't talk them out of this fear; it's built over years of societal pressure not to be openly sexual.

Your comfort with your sexuality and with hers will loosen her up to the idea of being sexual with you as discretion and openness are implied by your behavior (and not by your words, as discussed earlier).

Think of it like this. If I told you eating steak was wrong for your entire life and people would judge you for eating steak, you'd never eat it in public or in front of people you didn't trust with discretion.

Now let's say you respect John and value his opinion of you. Even if he told you eating steak in front of him was okay, you'd still be skeptical. But if he simply just started eating steak right there, knowing full well the social ramifications of it, and you look up to him to some degree, you'd feel a lot more comfortable eating it around him.

Really loose analogy, but you get the picture.

[–]meuglerbull 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Emotional communication is more complicated than you're implying by wanting a "guiding principle".

There are 2 levels: you should project sexual interest and concurrently communicate a lack of neediness, as /u/FrameWalker said.

Be fun and goal driven instead of ego driven, regarding your game with this girl. Be thinking "I'm going to have fun and be sexual soon and often. You, Ms Thang, are welcome to join me if you're fun as well per my judgement. I don't care about your judgement."

[–]MovieCommenter09 1 point2 points  (1 child)

A guiding principle in terms of understanding behavior is what I meant, not in terms of guiding your own behavior.

Either women mirror you, or they do the opposite of you. They cannot do both at the same time.

Not sure how that isn't obvious?

[–]meuglerbull -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Ah, I see. "Women mimic the mood of the moment" is wrong. There are two different "moods" with mostly opposite matching effects, I guess, but still, we're being too cut and dry.

[–]FrameWalker 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I don't think mood mimicking can be extrapolated too far beyond sexual desire.

With sexual arousal it's pretty much involuntary. If you come in neutral no response. If you go in horny and hot she gets polarized. Her ovaries will tug at her brain and say danger this guy's creepy don't get pregnant or it will say oh he's got good genes I'll lubricate for you.

Once she's wet she'll start testing. Is he really good enough? Any neediness will dry her up. When you break rapport once she's already turned on she starts to get desperate. Fuck he does have good genes but he's getting away. I'd better invest.

  1. Show sexual intent
  2. Feign indifference or otherwise eliminate all neediness

Physically touching girls is the best way to figure out where they stand. Don't go straight for their tits, something socially acceptable like the outside of their arm, shoulder, bump knees. If they recoil or wince back off. Maybe try again but probably next.

[–]king_of_red_alphas 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is the clearest explanation honestly way more valuable than the OP, which kind of makes it sound like all you have to do is go sit at a bar next to a hot girl and act disinterested to get her to see you as "mysterious" and high value because "why isn't he talking to me??"

The truth is, That will get you jack shit unless you are already good looking enough to have her attention in the first place (Thundercock).

All of the stuff in OP works if and only if you have her tingling already. Which is of course the hard part that is largely out of your control. Shit, it's even hard to know if you've induced tingles in some girls in the first place (ie finding out she was DTF when she seemed uninterested)

[–]2niczar 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Ostensibly ogling another woman's butt while she's talking to you might be a thing to do.

[–]gqtrees 1 point2 points  (0 children)

excellent advice

[–]Senior Endorseddr_warlock 13 points14 points  (2 children)

Listen to /u/OmLala. Also, never view women as your equals, because they aren't. Not physically, not mentally. They want a man to be superior to them and for him to think so. They want to be inferior, but they have to test to see whether that power lies within you.

Have you ever played a sport with a woman involved and treated her like a man, passing the ball at the speed you would a man? Ever tried to joke and banter with them like a man and see them uncomfortable? This why women try to tone police the atmosphere and male spaces, they cant handle it. They want to be treated like a woman, garnering the special priveledges that come with it, while having the power of a man. Some familiar? Children

Read Hypergamy 102: Her Perception and Contexts Means Everything for more details.

Always view them as children, no matter how old they are or if they're older than you. Never take them seriously and never argue with them. This is a subject I will get to in my my upcoming Chad post.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If I'm intellectually superior to a man, watering things down for the sake of his ego would be a disservice to me.

I won't do the wide-eyed thing for a mouth-breather. Come on.

[–]waynebradysworld -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I love swatting a female on the basketball court. Knock her down and throw that shit out of bounds, grunting loudly. Maybe even stand over her for a second.

Dang I miss college