Red Pill TheoryThe Five Stages of Red Pill, and how to read r/TRP textposts. (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by TRP VanguardWhisper

I'm probably not the first person to observe that taking the red pill is a gradual process, and that the loss of illusions, like any other loss, initiates a grieving process.

But it's worth pointing out that psychology's general "five stages" model of the grieving process applies to TRP.

  1. Denial: "Women aren't like that! They're people just like everyone else! Treat them all as individuals, and you're sure to find the right one!"

  2. Anger: "WTF! Bitches are all like this! They have no honour, no loyalty, and they don't really love anyone but themselves! Fucking cunts!"

  3. Bargaining: "If I work real hard and learn all the pickup moves, then at least I'll get laid."

  4. Depression: "Getting laid by shallow, obnoxious women has become dull and unrewarding. And there's no sense looking for a unicorn. Maybe I'll just be MGTOW for a while."

  5. Acceptance: "Women aren't bad. My expectations of them, and theirs of me, were based on faulty premises. They are creatures of instinct, just like I am... but of different instincts. If I learn what those instincts are, and teach them about mine, we can develop realistic expectations of each other and get along just fine."

If we really want to understand what gets written here, in its proper context, we need to understand that most "Red Pill Theory" posts will belong to one of these five stages. Each stage has value, because to reach a later one, you must go through the earlier ones. And, as in grieving, the progress through is seldom linear, smooth, uniform, and one-directional.

But to understand each post in context, it helps to mentally decide which stage it belongs to, and read it with that in mind.

This is why concern trolling and tone policing have no place here. Not because extremism is our banner (we have no banner, we are not a crusade), but because venting, discussing and understanding anger is a legitimate part of phase 2. Saying that women aren't worth hanging about with, even for sex, is part of phase 4.

If I were to say "don't be so angry" to someone who comes here to say "all women are bitches and whores", then I would be interrupting his process of coming to terms with the loss of his illusions. It would be far better for me to tell him that his feelings are important (because feels actually sometimes are important), and that his anger is not bottomless, and that it will eventually run dry.

So when I read a text post here, some red pill theory, some rant, I just say to myself "stage 2". Or "stage 3". Or "stage 5". And then I continue reading. Because they are all useful. Even if I am (mostly) over my own anger, understanding other men's anger helps me, because it teaches me more about where the disconnect between reality and our expectations occurs.

But to anyone who doesn't understand that TRP posts come from different stages of the process... well, a lot of what's written here just isn't going to make sense.

[–]throwaway-o 125 points126 points  (7 children)

This should be on the sidebar.

[–]TRP Vanguardscottishredpill 33 points34 points  (3 children)

Part of the required reading is Rational Male - Year One series which includes The 5 Stages of Unplugging

[–]rogueman999 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, but newcomers reading this is somewhat more urgent in the context of this subreddit. I'd even go as far as say it should be permanently stickied.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Seconded. I read all of those articles, and most of year 2 as well... great read! It was a thorough introduction to TRP.

OP originally commented this somewhere else and I really like his break down of the 5 stages.

[–]PetrichorJunkie 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I didn't see this in the sidebar (blind maybe, who knows) but I'm reading through it now. Thanks for posting this 5 months ago ;-)

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)


[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It's a brilliant summary of what I went through. I was always looking for the correct way to say expressing frustration is okay in this context and is a way of people finding their way - and here we have it.

[–]Endorsed ContributorDoxasticPoo 45 points46 points  (22 children)

I've thought about this before as well. So I'd like to offer a little bit more analysis that's helped me regarding each stage and how I deal with them.

Stage 1: Denial - This is in some way dissociation. You WILL view your GF as "loving". You WILL view her as "loyal". You WILL project your image of a woman onto her.

But somewhere in you that's not true. And you know it.

The best thing you can do is read TRP material and reality match. The more you read up on TRP and SEE how reality matches what's being said, the harder it is to dissociate. Your false reality will be forced out of your head.

This will hurt. A fucking lot.

Stage 2: Anger - Anger is often thought of as a feeling and is commonly confounded with loathing. But it's not. Anger, hate, rage... they are emotions. And the difference between an emotion and a feeling is emotions drive us to DO something. An action usually follows an emotion.

So what is Anger motivating us to DO? Well, that's up to you to decide since it's your head. But for me, my anger, hate and rage ALWAYS motivate me to protect. It's literally the driving force that gets me to stand in the way of something.

So what am I protecting when in Stage 2? Myself. From the pain of seeing reality. That shit hurts.

But you can't run from that. You have to feel it. Understand that by "protecting" yourself from reality you're not living in reality. So the best thing you can do for yourself is process the hate, and see reality. Because it's not that bad.

What we're experiencing is very much like walking out of house in the middle of a summer day when you've been asleep for hours in a completely dark room. Shit's gonna hurt your eyes.

Do it slowly. And you'll see that you don't actually need to protect yourself. You can open your eyes.

Stage 3: Bargaining - after reality starts to set in, you don't want it. You want to go back. The outside world is too bright and frightening, so you want to run back inside, into the dark room, and go back to sleep.

This stage usually involves me imagining a conversation with a woman. In this conversation she is usually caring, loving, nurturing, etc... And your mind is very stupid. It will believe that what you're imagining IS real.

Don't let it. When I catch myself doing this I say to myself, "This conversation isn't happening... it's never happened... and it's never going to happen... and that's ok."

I don't want to change myself back into some beta pussy, and that wouldn't matter anyway because I can never change who women are. So fuck it.

Stage 3 is your brains way of pushing you back into Stage 1. Don't let it.

Stage 4: Depression - What I've realized about depression, despair, loss... is it's a gap. It's the result of the difference between reality and what I WISH reality was like. The fact that reality isn't how I want it depresses me. The gap fills me with despair. And it's that gap that causes stage 4.

What I do in this situation is tell myself to quite being a fucking baby. Not everything in life is designed by me. I'm the author of my Self but not the author of others. They are their own. So what if I'm not tall? So what if she doesn't love me? So what if.....? I can't control the fact that something doesn't exist!

It's far healthier to see reality first, then make your choices. Most of the time depression sets in it's because you made your choice, then expected reality to live up to it. And that frame of mind is backwards.

So when I'm in stage 4 I just realize that I'm not seeing reality first, then choosing. I'm just being a child.

Stage 5: Acceptance - This stage has yet to set in fully for me. However, I have experienced it. And once you get a taste of it, don't forget the feeling. Because the memory of life in stage 5 is EXTREMELY useful if you get stuck in another stage. Sometimes when I'm in stage 4, I think about life in stage 5, and how important it is to see reality before I make my choices. And that can help me close the gap that's causing the depression.

And also, this isn't a specific process. You will likely jump between stages, get to stage 5 then fall backwards, maybe not even experience a stage, whatever you NEED to do.

So don't expect it to happen in a certain way. Don't worry if you don't experience it how "everyone else does".

Just let it happen. It's pretty amazing, but your brain knows what to do if you let it.

[–]heist_of_saint_graft 9 points10 points  (18 children)

This comment and Whisper's OP are invaluable. I hope all you guys here realize we are very likely saving guys' lives. Y'all doin' God's work.

[–]Hardparty 1 point2 points  (16 children)

We need a checklist or a 12 step program for this shit, because I feel I'm all over the board

[–]Endorsed ContributorDoxasticPoo 1 point2 points  (15 children)

That's totally normal.

You're mind's "stuff" (memories, emotions, feelings, thoughts, sense of humor, etc...) all exists as RNA, electrical clouds, chemical reactions, etc...

Going through this process has to be done for each physical piece of "shit" that needs to get processed.

So if you believe that being nice gets you laid, you have to go through these steps regarding the literal strands of RNA, electrical clouds and chemical reactions that involve being a Nice Guy.

However, all this physiological shit is connected. So if you get to stage 4 with regard to being nice, you may uncover something new that needs to be processed. Or it might bring up an old memory with a lot of emotions that has to be redefined.

And these associations can send you flying between stages. Because at one moment you're depressed about all the time spent as a "nice" guy (processing the "nice guy" belief), the next moment you're remembering a time in a bar when a girl went home with an asshole and you're back in Stage 2 (processing a memory).

So you will bounce around until everything's pretty much cleared out.

[–]Hardparty 0 points1 point  (14 children)

So you're saying that I'll have to relive every woman interaction with the red pill filter on, and rewire my brain for each type of belief? Thanks for the reply!

[–]Endorsed ContributorDoxasticPoo 10 points11 points  (13 children)


But not that extreme. You have to relive every memory, belief or emotion you still hold onto.

And here's why. That shit is still being stored in your limbic system. And it's affecting everything you do.

This is because there is NO direct link between your frontal lobe and your body. Everything you DO comes from signals in you limbic system. Your frontal lobe can send signals to your limbic system, but at the end of the day your limbic system controls what you do.

If you have a memory stored in your limbic system that has a massive red flag attached to it, you will do things based on this memory. And you probably won't even realize it because the memory is not near your awareness center, which is in the front of your brain... far away from the limbic system.

So, here's what happens when you "reprocess". You take a strand of RNA, shove it into your hippocampus, "relive" the memory, then tell your amygdala to "restamp" the memory as not a big deal. That way the strand of RNA just goes to the recycling bin rather than being stored.

The hippocampus and amygdala work together. The hippocampus is like an "experience" assembly line and the amygdala its workers. The hippocampus sends our current and past experiences to either "long term" memory or the recycling bin. And the amygdala puts a stamp on the experience. This stamp can be things like "dangerous", "interesting", "useful", etc... But the stronger the stamp, the more likely it will affect your future behavior. And anything with a stamp goes to long term memory.

By doing what I've described above, you're removing and changing stamps. But now you're doing it on your terms. Most of the "stamps" we currently have came from a time when your consciousness wasn't fully developed. This is why children are so fragile. Their amygdala stamps solely based on emotions and it's the parent's job to ensure the correct experiences get stamped in the correct way.

These experiences aren't just memories though. They're beliefs about yourself. Emotions you never processed (so chemical byproducts you just left sitting around in your brain). And memories that need to be restamped.

Relive. Reprocess. And always remember, "It's not that big of a deal."

[–]j_arbuckle2012 2 points3 points  (11 children)

God damn dude. Fuckin' saved.

Mindfulness practice also helps speed this process up by making you aware of it happening. Meditation doesn't get bandied about on TRP and I think it's an incredibly useful tool for self-development.

[–]Endorsed ContributorDoxasticPoo 2 points3 points  (10 children)

Exactly. Part of what I'm describing here can happen through meditation.

In fact, I sometimes tell people to "Imagine a monster in your head while meditating. What does it say to you? Do you really believe it? Fight the monster. Defeat it."

In doing that you connect your "consciousness" to your "subconsciousness" through your imagination. And you're pulling out a belief (monster), reprocessing it (imagining it) and restamping it (fighting it).

I can sometimes go through this process with mindfulness. I can literally feel a memory in my head that needs to get reprocessed, I chase it around (because the fuckers don't want to get caught sometimes), and force it through my hippocampus.

Another way to do this is working out. People don't notice but when you workout, you're also working out your brain. You are pushing yourself mentally as well as physically. And in your head, what's happening is you're processing shit that's stored up. Your using that unprocessed emotion to drive your workout. So when you're done working out, you feel better partly because you just processed a bunch of emotions you weren't dealing with.

[–]Hardparty 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This thread should be best of'd red pill

[–]enticingasthatmaybe 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Another way to do this is working out. People don't notice but when you workout, you're also working out your brain. You are pushing yourself mentally as well as physically. And in your head, what's happening is you're processing shit that's stored up. Your using that unprocessed emotion to drive your workout. So when you're done working out, you feel better partly because you just processed a bunch of emotions you weren't dealing with.

This is why I run. At first I ran to get into shape, but the meditative energy keeps me going out everyday (that and probably being addicted to endorphin). To me there is nothing more calming than when my conscious mind simply shuts off after about 6 miles and I become a passenger in my own body. Thoughts are slow and memories are nearly impossible to access.

It's hard to describe, but my body is literally running on autopilot. I don't need to make any conscious efforts.

Absolutely nothing that I'm stressing out about will survive a long run... nothing.

[–]Endorsed ContributorDoxasticPoo 1 point2 points  (2 children)

You read The Power of Now?

[–]j_arbuckle2012 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yup. Which is why physical exertion is so important when you want to get over something. I went from bouncing between stage 1 and stage 2 in OP's post to bouncing between stage 4 and 5 after six weeks of hard lifting, running, and meditating every day.

Really great stuff dude. Thanks!

[–]Hardparty 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I gather we'll know a memory is re-stamped properly when it doesn't surface again. Is meditation the only means of re-stamping or can we actively do it throughout the day? I do enjoy meditation, I never thought it would be brought up in the red pill hah

[–]Endorsed ContributorDoxasticPoo 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Anything is far game in TRP. And meditation can be extremely helpful for guys who've just swallowed the pill. Because you have to find a way to process all this shit.

And yes, you can do this without meditation. I'm at the point now where I sometimes "batch" process shit. Where I can feel a ton of memories, beliefs, thoughts, etc... And I just force it all through my hippocampus. And I just say to myself, "Fuck all this shit. It doesn't matter. I don't care about the details. Just restamp and dissolve it all. I don't need any of it."

This can be tough to do though. And if you don't get it all out, sometimes things get stuck.

But yes, I do this throughout the day. Like I said, I can literally feel these things in my head. Like the wind on a cold day or stepping on a nail or spider crawling on your arm, I can FEEL the memories.

I call them my "bubbles". Cuz at first, that's what they were like; bubbles moving around in my head. And by directing my attention to them, they would keep moving. And I would keep my attention on them as they moved until they ended up in my hippocampus.

Getting to this point took me a lot of work though. And there's a phase just before the bubbles that feel like your brain is unthawing.

All of this just sort of starting happening on its own after I did the meditation. The meditation is the best way to start. If you connect your consciousness to your subconsciousness through you imagination, you'll hunt down the shit that's built up and start doing this. If you keep practicing it, you're brain's neuroplasticity will take over and you'll just start doing it naturally.

And you'll know when something's gone. It literally dissolves. And after it dissolves you feel like... well, I've pushed shit through that after it dissolved, it felt like I just blew my load. Maybe not quite as orgasmic, but very similar. Letting go of all this shit feels good. It's like a weight being lifted off your shoulders.

You'll know when something is "restamped" and dissolved.

[–]I_Ejaculate_Clowns 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Holy shit that was the best eli5 about how memories are processed and learning happens that there has ever been. Forget TRP that was amazing. Congratulations.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)


Who would have thought that I would stumble upon some of the most impactful, profound, life altering information on a collection of blogs and fucking reddit!

I don't know if I've ever felt such a connection with people across the internet. We are sharing an experience that we all know is incredible.. and in the cold realm of TRP, I need you fuckers.

[–]KnopflerisGod 1 points1 points [recovered]

Holy shit! Are you Jackson Browne and is this 1971? Great post!

Doctor, my eyes have seen the years And the slow parade of fears without crying Now I want to understand

I have done all that I could To see the evil and the good without hiding You must help me if you can

Doctor, my eyes Tell me what is wrong Was I unwise to leave them open for so long

'Cause I have wandered through this world And as each moment has unfurled I've been waiting to awaken from these dreams

People go just where there will I never noticed them until I got this feeling That it's later than it seems

Doctor, my eyes Tell me what you see I hear their cries Just say if it's too late for me Doctor, my eyes

Cannot see the sky Is this the prize for having learned how not to cry

[–]Endorsed ContributorDoxasticPoo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I am not Jackson Browne.

But a link to that song would be nice. Great lyrics.

[–]KidGrizz 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you!! New member here 28 black male. This helps a lot.

[–][deleted] 65 points66 points  (1 child)

This is an excellent point. I find myself getting frustrated at some stuff on here, but you framed it well.

[–]rpking 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I agree with you. This cleared up a lot of the frustration I had with people in different stages than me.

[–][deleted] 49 points49 points

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[–][deleted] 27 points28 points  (4 children)

Once you have the proper mindset it becomes natural. Our biological ancestors didn't require "learning game" to be alphas. It arose as a natural product of their lifestyles. Game is something we must now teach ourselves because society is structured nothing like it used to be. Living in modern times we aren't fighting for survival, engaging with many people on a daily basis, forming tribes, etc. So now we have to "fake it till you make it". The faking it part might seem a little tedious, but when you make it, it becomes natural.

[–][deleted] 3 points3 points

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[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I find myself bouncing around the 5 stages

For me the depression isn't really hitting hard. I'm single and never been in love, so I think for me the loss of the fantasy isn't so bad because I wonder if I ever really believed it the begin with.

For me its the anger thats hard to kick.. once I can put the anger aside I'll hit acceptance pretty quick I think.

anyone have any tips for the anger stuff? I'm trying not to be a dick to my friend's wives and shit, but its consuming me.

[–]Hardparty 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Great answer and question. Thank you guys

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Agreed, and was exactly my thought. I dealt with the problem by just accepting the fact that at some point she will act like all women and bounce. Might be 5 years, might be 10. So, I just decided to do/be whatever the fuck I want. I mean, she is going to leave anyway so i should at least be happy until then.

[–]Offensive_Brute 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I bounce back and forth between those stages several times a month. Almost weekly really. Different experiences with different women cause different reactions. Like some times I feel all pussy beggar romantic, afterall thats what I was raised on. 90s R&B and romcoms. Other times i see women and just sneer.

[–]tallwheel 5 points6 points  (2 children)

This is gonna sound MRAish (actually, more MGTOWish), but the problem with settling at Stage 5 as the ideal outcome is that even if the individual achieves acceptance of men and women's true nature, there are still going to be laws made by people who don't understand which favor women's whims and take advantage of men's natural good tendencies. Unless changes occur, I can see how one might rationally conclude that remaining at stage 4 for the rest of one's life is not such a bad idea. Just sayin'.

[–]TRP VanguardCyralea 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Conversely, some might look at the inherent disadvantages and still decide to play the game. The cost-benefit analysis plays out a little differently for each individual.

That said, each newly minted MGTOW aids every other active male by lowering the price of pussy via dropped demand, so it's to each sides benefit to look upon MGTOW favourably.

[–]tallwheel 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Absolutely. And, in fact, lowering the price of pussy is exactly one of the things MGTOW hope to do. They start by lowering the price of pussy in their own minds, and go from there.

Also, I wanted to add, that in MGTOW's case, naming stage 4 "Depression" might not be a suitable name. MGTOW often live happily in stage four for the long term. I can tell you that in the last couple years, since deciding I am MGTOW, I have never been happier, and am ironically getting more pussy than ever before - not that I care much about that, of course. Pussy seems to come the least to those who pine for and worship it.

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[–]TRP VanguardWhisper[S] 24 points25 points  (3 children)

I really hope this 'stage 2' anger doesn't become a component of TRP.

It is, and necessarily so.

One of the reasons we need a place like TRP is that it's pretty much taboo everywhere else to say negative things about women, especially if those things are generalizations.

The only way we can have a productive discussion is to be able to explore whatever thoughts we have, and examine them for truth or falsity. That means this needs to be a zero white-knighting zone. Which means it's okay to say mean things about women, advocate trolling them, whatever.

Now, that's not to say we have to agree. But if we disagree, we must do so by saying "that's false", not "that's angry/mean/hostile".

Or even "that's juvenile". Because what is juvenile? It's a stage in the process of growing up. There are people who come in here, who have never, in their whole lives, been free to say negative things about women without fear, despite the fact that women do have many obvious negative attributes.

Now the chains are off. Of course they're going to run their mouths a bit. Some just for the heady feeling of newfound freedom, some to look edgy, some to try to look more "alpha" than more moderate voices.

And if you try to stop that, you are recreating the problem. It is knowledge, not nagging, that extinguishes anger. No one is angry at that which he can control.

[–]ilike2partyhowaboutu 6 points7 points  (0 children)

One of the reasons we need a place like TRP is that it's pretty much taboo everywhere else to say negative things about women, especially if those things are generalizations.

It's pretty much an arrest-able offence now a days!

Women like shoes, shopping and cutting each other apart for sport!

fuck that felt GOOOooooOOOOOdddd

[–]Hardparty 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Knowledge, not nagging extinguishes anger. Genius. Quality posts, all of them

[–]Inexplicably_Hostile 21 points22 points  (17 children)

Cool post except that the idea of psychological stages as a phenomenon has been dead for a long time now. There are no stages and suggesting that all of us go through the same ones when we come to TRP is probably going to do far more harm than good in the long run.


Here's a good takeaway quote:

"[What's wrong with stages] is the guilt and pressure the theories impose on people who are not feeling what they think they should. This is why consumers of any kind of psychotherapy or posttraumatic(sic) intervention that promulgates the notion of ‘inevitable’ stages should be skeptical and cautious.”

Why don't we treat the guys who come here like they're adults instead of babying them about everything? It's OK to be upset, it's not OK to let the guys here withdraw from the whole world into a shell because "it's only a stage, they'll get over it".

[–][deleted] 21 points22 points  (10 children)

This kind of nit picky stuff rubs me the wrong way. What's wrong with putting other people's behavior into a quick classification system so that we can accept them and move on? Why do we need to see an angry guy and calm him down? Maybe he has a right be angry, maybe some woman tore his heart our and pissed in his chest hole. Or a guy withdrawing from everything, why do we need to force him out? Maybe it will do him good to take some time off women for a while.

Emotions are ephemeral by their very nature. Let people deal with them in their own way. Just because A dude felt angry and it didn't come right after denial doesn't mean the guidelines above aren't useful. The bigger picture here is don't judge, just let people be who they are, and I completely agree. Women tut tut at each other and express concern that someone isn't feminist in the perfectly correct way. They eat their own. Fuck that.

[–]Inexplicably_Hostile 6 points7 points  (0 children)

It's OK to be upset.

I literally said that in my closing paragraph. Being emotionally fragile is completely fine. What's harmful is stupid pseudoscience and psychological feel good bullshit. The stages of grief literally don't exist and are there are plenty of studies that demonstrate that believing in them HURTS PEOPLE. Whisper posts stuff like this all the time. Stuff that makes you feel good but has no basis in rationality or fact. I guess it's like being religious, if you want to believe in something that's fine with me. But don't come into inappropriate places trying to convert everyone to your poorly thought out sophistry.

Let people deal with them in their own way.

That's exactly what the "five stages of grief" are designed not to do. They tell people that they should be feeling this or that even though everyone experiences things differently. We should be actively trying to get members to come around to the appropriate way of seeing things, not coddling them. There are studies on group therapy that show that the time for trauma recovery can be lengthened by a huge amount just by the presence of multiple people with similar trauma reinforcing negative behavior. Sound familiar?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree, it's just mindless hair splitting for the sake of nothing.

There are many lessons to be learned from creating a classification system such as this. So what if it isn't 100% accurate 100% of the fucking time. In my experience at TRP it's spot on more than half the time, which makes it correct often enough to draw useful conclusions and relate to what other people are going through.

[–]VodkaTankerSpill 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This good as I am experiencing several stages at once.

[–]AlmostRP 4 points5 points  (3 children)

Is this really complicated, meta-complain-trolling? It doesn't matter, this post is great :-)

Stage 6 is starting your blog.

Stage 7 is putting out a book.

Stage 8 is living off your manosphere blog.

Stage 9 is a zenlike inner peace.

Stage 10 you dive into your own belly button and escape the world to live with the other enlightened beings.

[–]Endorsed ContributorDoxasticPoo 1 point2 points  (0 children)


Oddly enough, that's not far off from what I was hoping.

[–]TRP VanguardWhisper[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

My navel is full of enlightened beings?


[–]libglip 1 point2 points  (0 children)

'Course, to the uninitiated they look like lint.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Side bar

[–]Uedukai 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Great post, and very true. This needs to be permalinked somewhere.

[–]The_Turbinator 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I am stage 4. The realization that there really is no love, there never was, and that there will never be, is quite depressing to say the least. The fact that you constantly have to game your life partner, and that there is no stage where you are now past all the bulshit and the games and officialy in love, it's... dark.

Oh well, fuck women.

[–]bgny 2 points3 points  (4 children)

I'm MGTOW but I don't feel depressed about it. In fact, I'm happier than I've ever been after over two decades of LTRs, short flings, and ONSs. After acceptance at stage 5 a man can either go MGTOW, which is a rational response to the misandric society, or continue playing the game with eyes wide open.

Placing MGTOW in the depression stage feels a little constricting to me. An angry stage man may decide to go MGTOW, a depressed stage man, or an accepting stage man. Even a bargaining man can be MGTOW, since MGTOW doesn't exclude chasing women at it's first two levels.

[–]Endorsed ContributorDoxasticPoo 5 points6 points  (3 children)

I think there are different "types" of MGTOW.


Then you're really in stage 2.

If you're like, "Well, I don't really want these bitches cuz they're not the bitches that I want...."

Then you're in stage 4.

If you're like, "Well, that's who they are. And I value my time too much to spend it in a way that's taxing. Woman are only taxing, so I don't see the point in having one around."

Then you're in stage 5.

[–]TomHicks 0 points1 point  (2 children)

The second one doesn't sound depressed, it sounds rational.

[–]Endorsed ContributorDoxasticPoo 1 point2 points  (1 child)

It's not. That person is going to be depressed about not getting what they want.

They haven't fully accepted who women are because they still "want" something that doesn't exist.

I wouldn't live my life based on the non-existence of Unicorns. That doesn't make sense. They don't exist, so why make decisions based on something that doesn't exist.

However, there are horses. And they can be plenty fun to ride. They're not Unicorns, but at least they're real.

The second guy is hung up on Unicorns and rejecting horses. The last guys is just rejecting horses.

[–]TomHicks 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Maybe he isn't looking for a unicorn, but has really high standards for horses. Maybe there aren't a lot of 10s or 9s in his area and he can't be arsed to go looking for them. So he doesn't want the 5s or 6s that DO live near him. That's just what I get from how you worded it.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Is there a post with a list of unrealistic expectations from stage 5? I am curious to find out what's on there.

[–]1 TRP SupporterFred_Flintstone 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Realistic expectations: men are polygamous, women hypergamous. Men don't care about their wives falling in love with someone else if she doesn't fuck them. Women tend to care little about a man sleeping with other women as long as he loves her and won't drop commitment. But sex has risk of causing love so actually they do mind. Also potential resources to other offspring mean less to hers. But at age 20 girls like a guy sleeping with other women, as long as they don't expect his commitment.

Anyway by understanding the dynamics you can have a better relationship. You can figure out reasons for emotional turmoil that brainwashed betas cant. You can also have submissive wife and dominant leader husband. The only possible combination that keeps both happy long term.

[–]Crackertron 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Rollo already did this.

[–]dudebro48 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I've been trapped in stage 2 for a couple years now.

[–]Coz7 2 points3 points  (7 children)

So.. what happens if I have symptoms of stages 2 to 5?

[–]randarrow 6 points7 points  (5 children)

[–]RojoEscarlata 2 points3 points  (4 children)

A Hellsing loved that show

[–]randarrow 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Was one of my omega stage guilty pleasures.... sometimes I still miss it all.

[–]RojoEscarlata 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I still permit myself the pleasure of follow an anime, because god damns imitation have being reading it fir ten years and I want closure.

I also may buy a ps3 to play dark souls 2.

Nothing wrong with a little need hobby if it.does not.take much time from you

[–][deleted] 3 points3 points

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[–]RojoEscarlata 0 points1 point  (0 children)

didn't think I would find another Soulbro here.

And you are spot on, damn those souls games are good

[–]Endorsed ContributorDoxasticPoo 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Realistically these stages aren't a process. They just occur.

You can bounce between stages (I do all the time). And sometimes experience multiple stages at once.

The main takeaway is you will experience all stages until the final is fully complete.

There are times when I think I'm in stage 5, then suddenly I'm in some other stage. That's just because I haven't finished processing all my stored up emotions.

Remember, emotions/feelings have LITERAL physical presence. It's all RNA, chemical reactions and electrical clouds. If you don't process the them, they stay there.

So until you've really reprocessed everything, you'll bounce around. Then one day, it'll all be processed, you'll be ok with reality, and you'll just live in Stage 5.

[–]SwimmingDutch 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Great post

[–]Glenbert 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Love this and right in time too... I was starting to wonder if there was a stage 5 to all of this. I feel like I'm may be entering it... just tired of being angry and sad about all of this.

I already knew all of this stuff in my 20s... and went through some of the stages then. Just still a little sad that I had to relearn it in my 30s.

[–]tenin2010br 0 points1 point  (0 children)

By this frame I'm not as far as I thought I was, between two and three. Need some re-evaluation I guess to fully swallow the pill. Thanks for the wake up, OP!

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This could be integrated into the posting rules. I think following this advice would reduce concern trolling (for those that would read it).

[–]evenlouder 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks my friend, I'm very new to this and still very optimistic

[–]adamlikesprettygirls 0 points1 point  (0 children)

wisdom. to the sidebar -->

[–]sh1v 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well said.

[–]1FloranHunter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That doesn't sound like bargaining. Bargaining would be self-improving in the expectation that you'll find and keep a unicorn. Your description of bargaining sounds more like depression.

[–]alcockell 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I need to ask - what if your brain-chemistry is such that you just can't be Machiavellian? Take me for instance - committed Christian, and Asperger Syndrome. Knocked back offers in the past as I was not ready for them - but also always having her and my best interests at heart.

Basically a chaste Natural Dad mindset...

Or is it just a case of "abandon hope and go MGTOW for my own sanity"?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

how about if the mods add the stages to the thread labels along the lines of:

BP example (stage 1)

rant&venting (stage 2)

RP theory (stage 3)

RP examples (stage 4)

FR (stage 5)

[–]ajvenigalla 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This explains a lot for me, as well as explaining the rich diversity in the Red Pill manosphere.

Thanks a lot.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

how to correctly identify current stage?
ex. one day I can say/think/feel stage 2 things, the next stage 4.
how to promptly move onto the next stage?

[–]Endorsed ContributorDoxasticPoo 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Are you asking for advice? See my comment above. Let me know if that helps.

If you could still use more, I'll write a more detailed summary of each stage.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for pointing me in the direction. That makes sense and can relate.

[–]Ceekoe 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for illustrating what I've been thinking.

[–]lu95 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Very insightful post, I can really connect with these five stages and recognize that I went through them.

Another thing that I might want to add out of my own experience is that, being in stage 5, according to your definitions, I might sometimes find myself fall back to other stages say 3 and 4. However eventually I find myself returning to stage 5.

[–]SgtSplacker 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nice to know what stage i'm in. I have to agree with this..

[–]bama79rolltide 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Golden Rules.

[–]darthcamronius 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have been attempting to swallow the red pill for...less than a week, I think, and I completely skipped stage 1, spent about 2 days on stage 2, and then kind of fell out of the reach of the stages. I'm not sure where I lie, but it is none of those. I know none of you know me, but are there stages in between stages, or perhaps alternatives to this route that I could have taken?

[–]ALexusOhHaiNyan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Which brings us to the biggest problem of /r/redpill.

Lack of "5's".

It's a demographics thing though. Reddit is mostly school aged white males. What is really needed is more 30+ something's that bring leadership to this. And that leadership being comprised of actual average guy experience, not just some seduction "expert" trying to promote his 'system' and wares.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Stage 5 is MGTOW, at least barbarossaaaa/stardusk variant of MGTOW.

[–]samnson 0 points1 point  (1 child)

So the blue pill's would be considered stuck on ''stage 3" while everyone else is on any other stage of the process. Is this the argument you are trying to make or have I gone completely off base?

[–]Sharawy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wouldn't the blue pill be stuck at stage 1?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've experienced so much before comming here that most of these stuff were already known by me, so reading this just made my idea rock solid.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think that "acceptance" of female hypergamy or female opportunistic love is actually emotional suppression or the denial of male idealistic love. Its actually a fallacy that men have built out of that very idealistic love which brings them back full circle underneath the feminine imperative or collective female hypergamy. I would even wager that the alpha male exists mostly due to relation to the female desire for that archetype, and that he mostly damages civilization.


To be really honest with oneself about these gender differences is to make the extremely painful realization that they are too radical to be accepted; so this isn't about acceptance, its about pain management to a consistent, logical realization about the nature of humanity. You don't have to talk to anyone about emotional pain, but you should never try to hide it from yourself, you have to continually face it and continue to grow.

[–]Evers89 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is an excellent way to frame the men here. There a small problem with this however and it explains the whole MGTOW movement. Lots of guys never progress through and get stuck over at anger. Some never get past denial.

The issue with coddling these guys is that some of them will remain here and simply be bitter. They won't read the posts and see information to harvest. They'll bombard them with "Yeah bitches are all crazy". They are a huge example of why we get labeled as misogynistic. Now I'm not one to give a shit what the rest of reddit thinks, but it's not progress. They're just stuck and it becomes noise and poison for new members.

Were all grown men here. A little bit of pain that some men won't let go of isn't heathy. I think the majority of the pain these guys are handling is their own doing and use hatred of women as an excuse not to let it go.

[–]pony1108 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Great post!

[–]nninja 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good post.

[–]reigorius 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Jesus fucking christ. Where the fuck am I. How did I ended up here in the first place. This pill you guys talk about, this bitter pill, is on the complete opposite side of the spectrum I operate at. I know I am needy as fuck, craving mummy-love I never fully got as a child, but this, this redpillthing is something near impossible to digest.

I'm at stage 1 and 4. Done 2 and 3. 5 seems like an unattainable illusion, don't even know what it is about.

[–][deleted] -4 points-4 points

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[–]TRP VanguardWhisper[S] 4 points5 points  (3 children)

I take issue with the oft-cited "5 stages." You seem to think they are linear.


And, as in grieving, the progress through is seldom linear, smooth, uniform, and one-directional.

I think we're done here.

[–][deleted] 6 points6 points

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[–]1 TRP SupporterFred_Flintstone 0 points1 point  (1 child)

He is explaining vague terms concepts and feelings which depend on the individual and their environment. It is not a mathematical proof he just wants to convey a useful framework for others to use to explain a phenoma a few of us had noticed but not put together. Writing everything to be fully technically accurate would have made it verbose and lacking punch required to deliver the point

[–]Doctor_Mayhem -4 points-3 points  (2 children)

You forgot the step 6, or "Jaded/MGTOW" step. You skip all that and, due to disgust with modern women, just drop out. At least, that's how I remember one of these 5 stages articles going.

[–]TRP VanguardWhisper[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

That's step 4.

[–]8HourPower 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're right. It's like that in Rollo's post on Rational Male for the classification. There will be variations to it on the manosphere naturally.

[–]Poetasters -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

separate but equal is never equal

[–]Indianbro -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Feel like im in between 2 & 3....and I hate this sub for that reason

[–]straylittlelambs -5 points-4 points  (4 children)

You could switch this around and this could be a post from a woman about men.

[–]Offensive_Brute 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Thank You Dr. Equality.

[–]straylittlelambs 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Such a brute...

[–]SystemicSubversion 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Interesting point. If there were a female equivalent of trp, what would they be saying?

[–]gg_s 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You could go ask them: /r/RedPillWomen

[–]fx-115es -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

what if being angry is a part of your frame?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Go with it. There's nothing wrong with anger. Angry people change things and get shit done. Scared people cower in place and whine. Why do you think the media is full of stories trying to scare you?

[–]Veritisia 3 points4 points  (1 child)

don't be angry, be evil. Evil will die protecting what is important to it, same as a white knight if she can change evil, lol.

[–]fx-115es -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Evil, i think im starting to understand, what trp is all about. I like it!