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So I just had one of my sadly too common shouting matches with my dad where the 20 years of abuse that I had received from him violently surfaced verbally and in the middle of it I saw my life from an outsider's perspective and it left me confused about a lot of things in life. Coincidentally I was also watching this film called Chef and a major theme of that film is the bond of a father and a son and it made me think about what it means to be a man and how much of an impact having a good strong male role model has in a young boy's life.

Now I'm a gay man so I think that puts me even farther in the dark as to what it means to be a man in the traditional sense, because of brain chemistry and other factors like not being around other boys as child. I have no doubt in my mind that my relationship with my father has had a huge impact on me as a person. More than I would like to admit.

Sob story aside, I was really wondering, how have the male role models in your life impacted your development? Were you taught "how to be a man?" what do you interpret that to mean? What were you taught specifically? I don't even know if this is the right question to be asking to try to get closure on my own relationship with my dad but it's a start.

I hope to get some genuine responses, thanks.


[–]kempff3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Stop arguing with people for whom arguing changes nothing. You will never have the relationship with your father that you want. Accept that fact and move on. You won't get closure.

...brain chemistry? what other excuses are you confabulating for yourself?

I learned how to be a man from watching other men. It's not that complicated. But at the same time I know the power of a bad example from childhood. Don't despair.

[–]speed3_freak1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep, I agree with all of this. Also, I would like to point out that the opposite of Love is apathy, not hate. If You father is really as bad as he comes across in your post, sever ties with him. If that's not possible, just ignore the fact that he exists. Hating someone just wastes energy

[–]Goldfulgore3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Becoming a man is the inner belief in yourself. You value your opinion above all others. You don't argue with people whos opinion doesn't match yours even if it's your loved ones.

Most gay men are flamboyant in nature. They run around behaving like women and are governed by their own emotions. People who let their emotions govern their life tend to change opinions easily and do not appear at all reliable. To become a man means to be stoic. You have mastered your own mind's insecurities and are able to make rational decisions. You have stopped seeking approval of others and only consider your own.

In the old days becoming a man used to be through a ritual. A ritual that taught you self reliance by going through emotional and physical pain.

Some gay men have overcome this, while most of them have not. Women can never achieve this because they lack the mental capacity. From what I personally know gay men are more in the gray area between men and women.

However I have seen gay men that have toughen up, being called faggots all their lives and have achieved heights that straight men only dream of.

But that's just my own personal opinion.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Everyone has hurdles growing up, whether it's abuse, bullying, or something else. You need to learn to be your own man and not let your childhood dictate what kind of person you'll be growing up.

[–]tpfr0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

If you haven't already, you need to read The Way of Men by Jack Donovan. Easily one of the best books I've ever read about what it means to be a man. I didn't find out till after I had read it, but the author is openly gay.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

No, I was not taught, at least not someone giving me personal directions. Since we are talking about being a 'man' and not being a 'human' that inevitably means what is different about being a man rather than a woman. That takes me straight to virtue. I don't mean in the modern sense of the word, as in 'goody-goody virtuous', but in the original Greek sense. Virtue comes from the Latin word vir (man). It meant something more like character strengths.

Jack Donovan says that the manly virtues are strength, courage, mastery and honour. That is not a bad list, but I prefer the classical Stoic (or Socratic) virtues: Practical Wisdom, Justice, Self Discipline, Courage. Courage is the same in both, but the rest of Donovan's virtues are really derivatives of these, I think. For example, mastery (of a skill or subject) is what you get when you have self discipline. I would add loyalty, as this is clearly a masculine virtue, which women commonly have difficulty with.

[–]Dragodar1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Practical wisdom (prudence), justice, courage (fortitude), and self-discipline (temperance). Interesting how the four stoic virtues are also the four Cardinal virtues of the Church. I hadn't made that comparison until just now.

[–]monzzter2210 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I had a piece of shit dad, and what's funny is I idolized him til my mid 20s. Kinda like how kids do their single moms, but mine was a dad.

He raised me. I didn't realize what a piece of shit he was, I was sort of in a bubble with him and just didn't see it.

Growing up I was insecure, afraid to fight, wary of ladies, all of it. And it all came from feeling small because of how he was. Looking back, he did not teach me a god damn thing about anything. Not life, women, manhood, not even how to cook beans. Nothing. And now I realize why he didn't teach me shit, it was because he didn't know shit, he wasn't shit. He was a piece of shit loser.

Everything I've learned about being a man and who I am as a man comes from adulthood. Trial and error, feeling helpless, having to figure shit out from scratch without a clue. You guys know it exactly, that day to day grind through life. Its like playing a puzzle with square pieces.

[–]monzzter2210 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

"That and a pair of testicles".

Really though, I wasn't taught as a kid. My dad is really just a loser. He never taught me a single valuable thing in my life. And I resent him for it. But I'm sure all of that has had its effect on me even if I don't see it.

I don't know man, I just kind of realized one day, I'm dying by the second. I don't have time for bullshit. I can't wait around for a role model or whatever. I'm just gonna have to figure this shit out from scratch.

And I started by scrubbing all my beliefs as I noticed them unless they were helpful to my growth. Growth has to be tangible or you can rationalize anything as helpful.

Even ones that you cling to and identify with must go if they don't serve you and make your life better. Even ones that you consider the only moral way to look at something must go if it doesn't make your life more fruitful.

And then i had to realize that only i am in charge and only i can do anything about my life, and that I owe nobody anything whatsoever.

[–]neptronix-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm in the same boat, homey. 34 and still don't have it down. Raised around strong femenist women, and my dad was a verbally abusive asshole when he was home, which was about 10% of my waking hours as a child.

I cannot offer you any advice, but i can say.. keep on asking and keep on learning. Thanks for prompting this discussion.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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