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ScienceFemale researcher gets Red-pilled while studying why 25% of men are now childless in Norway -- and it's steadily rising and mostly involuntary (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by Reven311

Fertility figures from Statistics Norway show that fewer and fewer men in Norway are fathering children.

The share of men who are childless at age 45 rose from 14 percent in 1985 to 23 percent in 2013.

The share of women who had not become mothers by age 45 increased from 10 percent in 1985 to 13 percent in 2013.

So to put this in perspective, women's childlessness has only risen by 30%, but men's childlessness has risen by a dramatic 64% in comparison (2 to 1). In raw percentage gains it's 3 to 1 (+9% vs +3%).

And apparently according to the researcher most of it is involuntary.

Men want to have children too

Why do so many men in Norway never have kids?

The development is paradoxical:

Norway is one of the countries in the Western World with the highest birth rates. More children are born per capita than nearly anywhere else.

Norway is also known to be a vanguard country with regard to equal rights for women and men.

“Both men and women in Norway answer in studies that having children is an important part of life. Few men or women consciously decide against having them. The desire to have kids has not changed,” says An-Magritt Jensen.

Norway is an interesting case, because it's basically like an egalitarian dream come true, the gold standard feminist model they want for America. But people (mainly men) are increasingly not able to meet their most basic desires in life.

Jensen, a sociology professor at the Norwegian University of Science and Technology (NTNU) in Trondheim, concludes that something else must have changed in Norwegian society.

She has conducted research on this issue for several years, especially through interviews with men.

“Expectations of Norwegian men have rocketed,” explains Jensen.

When women do give birth to children, it turns out that it can often be with men who have kids from previous relationships.

This is really important to recognize, and she should be commended for courageously stating the obvious.

“When Norwegian men from the working class have children, it is more often by chance,” explains Jensen.

She stresses that one often finds the most delighted and devoted fathers in this group.

So income seems to be a key driver of men's lower chances of reproducing in our modern egalitarian world, but that's probably not the whole story.

What actually happens often is that men who are already fathers get recycled.

Nevertheless, she ascertains that feminism and equal opportunity ideology have had an unequal impact on men and women in Norway.

“In other Western countries too there are men who never become fathers. But the proportion is especially high in Norway.”

What this basically means is with near perfect egalitarianism about 25% of the male population is simply obsolete (at least in a biological sense), and that number may continue to rise for the foreseeable future. Men have always been the disposable gender, so this is just a reversion back to our roots prior to the advent of agriculture, which precipitated a desire/need to promote monogamy (partly through religion) to extract beta male productivity for economic/societal gains. But our modern world simply doesn't need the bottom 25% anymore. They're essentially a waste of space. Females have re-established a sexual dynamic via education and birth control that strongly favors their reproductive strategies again after centuries of repression.

http://sciencenordic.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/300x/Barnloshet-statistikk-2_None.ipadFull.jpg

http://sciencenordic.com/quarter-norwegian-men-never-father-children


[–]ApexmanRP 433 points434 points  (106 children)

"What actually happens often is that men who are already fathers get recycled."

Men who have fathered children have already proven that they are reproductively successful.

Its just another way for women to share the "best" men.

[–]Hjalmbere 291 points292 points  (53 children)

In some cases these guys are your typical IDGAF losers. Case in point would be my cousin who fathered four different kids by two different women before he drank himself into an early grave. The welfare state has removed many of the negative consequences for both women and men who make poor reproductive choices.

[–]Cheveyo 83 points84 points  (41 children)

I know someone who, at one point, had several women fighting for his affections. He's short, balding, and very self-absorbed. And yes, each of the women has had at least one of his kids.

I've honestly never understood it.

[–]omega_dawg93 50 points51 points  (8 children)

don't waste your time trying to understand it... women are weird when it comes to who they choose to spray inside them.

i know multiple losers, druggies and alcoholics who have kids in the double digits. once women hear of a guy putting down good dick and making kids, it's like they go "dumb" and line up to have the guy do them too.

can't explain it... can't understand it... and i doubt the women understand it themselves.

[–][deleted] 37 points38 points  (5 children)

i know a guy who wasnt a druggie or anything, but he, back in high school, learned how to act like a bad boy and had sex with a lot of girls. he started lifting and building a image, and they flocked to him to get his dick. that year, was also the year he had sex for the first time. while he didn't have kids, he was able to get all these girls. they got word that all the girls fucked him, they wanted to see why he was so great.

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[deleted]

    [–]memphisjohn 14 points15 points  (1 child)

    Sociopaths, assholes, and selfish narcissists would have been bred out of the gene pool a LONG TIME ago if woman didn't love to spread their legs for them so much.

    Go back to pre-civilization days... when you are living in anarchy, every day is a fight for survival against predators (human and non human)... you want your male mate to be the baddest of the bad.

    [–]Chaddeus_Rex 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    perverted

    I dunno why you use a word with negative connotations like "pervert".

    Women LOVE perverts. The "dirtier" the better.

    [–]Imakesensealot 7 points8 points  (1 child)

    There's nothing to be 'understood' about it. That's the core RP theory. I don't even know what some of you are doing on this sub? RP is a state of mind. The most attractive trait in any man of any kind is the ability to not give a fuck. When you we'll and truly deeply do not give a fuck, nothing, from insecurities to chicks thinking they're better than you gets you down. That's why these guys are successful. You sitting here on your high horse is exactly the opposite of what you're supposed to be doing.

    [–]Hoodwink 44 points45 points  (7 children)

    I think two of the most important personality traits women look for in marriage partners when not properly socialized within 'patriarchy' is 'self-absorption' (or narcissism or the ability to be selfish with resources) and cluelessness (or the bluepill or easily controlled by women).

    That's a bit messy, but the reason why I had have so many parenthesis is that the ideas crossover. Overall, the main characteristics show that the man will be selfish which increases resources of the man, and then the no-options/cluelessness/blue-pill means the women can squeeze resources out of the man.

    Essentially, the reason he's the perfect candidate is because he's seen as the perfect mark. He's the guy that will fuck over his friends and family to pay back his debts or sell shitty crap to.

    [–]Coptek91 25 points26 points  (3 children)

    EXACTLY THIS. Women always bitch about how there are no "good/nice men around," well sweetie, assholes and Narcissists would have been bred out of the gene pool if you didn't love fucking them so much.

    Typical Female: "I had an abusive boyfriend/husband for 6 years that would beat me and abuse me and degrade me"

    Me: Why did you stay with him for 6 years?

    Typical Female: "Because I LOOOOOOOVE HIM!!!"

    Women are the gatekeepers of reproduction. Selfishness, narcissism, and sociopathy would have been wiped out a long time ago if women would stop spreading their legs for them.

    [–]Soultrane9 13 points14 points  (0 children)

    When I did the exit interview after a 4 years LTR:

    Me: You will tell the next guy you were used and abused right?

    Her: Yes that's for sure!

    Me: Will you share that you were asking for it and enjoyed every minute of it?

    silence

    [–]Endorsed ContributorAuvergnat 10 points11 points  (12 children)

    You haven't fully understood TRP theory until you've understood the fact that (and why) women are looking to partner up with beta providers, instead of alpha stallions.

    [–]Avesatanie 2 points3 points  (3 children)

    Care to explain why? The only think that comes in mind are post wall women.

    [–]Layback 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    Betas are safer because they don't have the ability to get a girl like an alpha does.

    [–]Endorsed ContributorAuvergnat 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    Rollo's post "schedules of mating", or the post currently on TRP's front page "elucidating alpha and beta" are a good start.

    AF;BB is TRP 101, but you need to spend time outside of this sub and on the rest of the manosphere to learn it now

    [–]ssr401 2 points3 points  (2 children)

    We've all seen cases like that. It disproves the claims of incels who complain that they'll never find a girlfriend just because they're short or have poor facial bone structure or whatever.

    [–]Cheveyo 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    There are some people who are born with an unfortunate appearance, but most incels aren't like that. What they tend to lack is social. I think there are some that recognize this, but too many refuse to take responsibility for themselves.

    [–]1ozaku7 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Most losers use circumstances as excuses. They could do a ton to be more attractive but they rather wallow in self pity so they don't have to spend any effort into anything. Incels are creatures hoping that everything falls right onto their lap and it's good that these losers are filtered out of the gene pool.

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]gopher_glitz 68 points69 points  (7 children)

      My half brother is a homeless, junkie, jobless, high school drop out and has fathered 4 kids from three different ham beasts.

      [–]SkaTSee 66 points67 points  (3 children)

      hmm, i smell the beginning to idiocracy

      [–]ThomasHobbesROK 11 points12 points  (0 children)

      Ham beasts? Well I suppose he deserves our sympathy rather than jealousy

      [–]zephyrprime 5 points6 points  (0 children)

      Idiocracy is prophecy, not entertainment

      [–]TominatorXX 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      LOL. Could you do a separate post on him? I want to hear more.

      [–]kronos415 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Making light/fun of men unaware of their stupidity does nothing to better our gender as a whole and deters other men that are blue pilled from potential enlightenment. Worsening our current status in society and potentially detering any legitmate arguments someone from this sub could make to revert current social stigmas. Please think before doing. In your haste to prove to others that you arent some beta by belittling other betas, you are proving that at the very least you are not an alpha.

      [–]ApexmanRP 2 points3 points  (2 children)

      Yes i get that.. But clearly he had something that these women wanted...

      [–]greeb666 34 points35 points  (3 children)

      People say best and forget that serial killers like Bundy had kids on death row. The green river killer gets tons of fan mail and so on. Women are attracted to a lot of things, best is not always one of them. There are plenty of worthless dudes with multiple baby mommas. I know quite a few.

      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

      [deleted]

        [–]greeb666 9 points10 points  (0 children)

        Oh I agree. Best is probably not a good word though.

        [–]ApexmanRP 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        Yes, it depends how you define "best". In this case I was meaning proven fertile.

        [–]Endorsed Contributorredpillbanana 112 points113 points  (17 children)

        "What actually happens often is that men who are already fathers get recycled."

        Recycled father = the most clinical euphemism I've ever heard for a Chad.

        [–]Endorsed ContributorAuvergnat 15 points16 points  (15 children)

        On the contrary, I'd say what's attractive about men being fathers is primarily that they have demonstrated they are prime beta material.

        [–]Endorsed Contributorredpillbanana 13 points14 points  (4 children)

        You're absolutely right when women are operating in a more traditional society where there are social consequences for sleeping around and having kids out of wedlock.

        In Norway, where single motherhood is incentivized by the government, the women are not going to worry about how well the fathers can support or raise their children.

        [–]BunnyPoopCereal 2 points3 points  (4 children)

        Probably the only way to know for sure is to look at these "recycled men" and see if they're actually Chads as far as looks are concerned.

        [–]1z1z2x2x3c3c4v4v 8 points9 points  (3 children)

        as far as looks are concerned.

        Its not about their looks, its about their IDGAF attitude combined with their assertive take risks personality.

        Simply said, they approach and hit on everyone, and could care less if they get someone pregnant or get an STD.

        If you acted like that, you could get all the girls you wanted too...

        Stop thinking its about looks.

        Its about attitude and assertiveness.

        [–]1ozaku7 2 points3 points  (2 children)

        Finally someone talking sense. Women are just a numbers game. Hit on them and 1 out of 200 will definitely bite. 1 out of 10 of you are good, 1 out of 2 if you are a god.

        Incels are incels because they can't talk to girls without fainting. Even if the girl would do all the work they would still not manage to get their dick wet.

        [–]WolfgangBreitweit 44 points45 points  (13 children)

        It’s a sequencial harem. The old model in a new interpretation. Old wine in new bottles.

        [–]Reven311[S] 9 points10 points  (10 children)

        That's an interesting way of analyzing it.

        [–]Unrealenting 40 points41 points  (8 children)

        No amount of social posturing can usurp basic biological urges. With the dissolution of monogamy these trends will continue to rise as women fulfill their hypergamous drives in the absence of economic and ethical repercussion. This literally happens every time there's an abundance of resources. Equitable societies free women from the need to be dependent on men and therefore they choose only to mate with the man with the most provisional and genetic value possible, often preferring to die alone rather than settle for anything less than their masculine ideal if she needn't be dependent upon a man she perceives as weak in order to survive. This is the price we pay for becoming soft and agreeable pursuant to the advent of the abundance procured from our military and industrial enterprises.

        [–]Reven311[S] 17 points18 points  (7 children)

        Monogamy is still a useful device to entrap certain high value men higher on the agreeableness scale of the Big 5 and monopolize their high quality sperm and resources for their own high value reproduction, to the exclusion of other women (the competition). Even in extreme socialistic structures like Norway, the absence of economics is never going to become a reality, unless automation puts half of men out of work or something. But that's entirely speculative at this point.

        You are correct that equitable structures favor female reproductive strategies, which is why they tend to recycle the higher value men willing to reproduce with many women and discard the rest. If the cost of living continues to rise, this will only become more pronounced, since only about 40% of college students are men.

        What I see happening is the bottom 40-50% of men banding together and sparking a political revolution of some kind, similar to the way white men without a college degree banded together and voted for Trump in 2016 in a way they haven't done in many years, perhaps in living memory. This will continue and expand, and if their demands are not met, then all hell will break loose eventually.

        [–]Unrealenting 18 points19 points  (5 children)

        At best, women will use monogamy to extract your resources and dip out with your kids. Monogamy is a losing game for men if women don't require their resources, unless the level of inequity in your favor is so high that she'd suffer severely in provisional procurement relatively speaking if the relationship ends due to an inability to branch swing to a man of similar social/financial standing.

        Welcome to the r-selection mating market.

        Indeed. For instance, "White Nationalism" is on the rise and a direct consequence of this rise in equity and relative abundance that has allowed Women to shirk motherhood and monogamy with little to no consequence due to a preponderance of safety nets and economic opportunity that makes dependence on a relatively mentally and physically weak male obsolete, especially since there are a myriad of men with similar provisional value she can easily branch swing to with little to no economic or social consequence. The best course of action is to enjoy the decline and hone your non-wealth related advantages over other men in terms of bravery, intellect, and muscularity through the mastery of frame, game, and lifting so that you are ready for the inevitable economic implosion that will undo hundreds of years of previously established order and class systems.

        Welcome to one of the last refuges of rational thought brother.

        [–]whine_and_cheese 3 points4 points  (0 children)

        But I tell you this, man, I tell you this. I don't know what's gonna happen, man, but I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames
        Alright!

        [–]untonyto 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        Well put. A comprehensive manifesto with a concrete strategic plan.

        [–]WolfgangBreitweit 5 points6 points  (0 children)

        Thanks, But it’s obvious. She’d rather share a millionaire with five other chicks, than having a poor guy on her own.

        [–]ApexmanRP 4 points5 points  (1 child)

        Ha! I was looking for a word to link it to harems, thanks man. Exactly.

        [–]tempolaca 19 points20 points  (1 child)

        I have a child and it hasn't turned out to be the hindrance I though it would be. No women, from 19 to 35, has ever turned me down when they found out I'm a father.

        [–]ApexmanRP 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        Yes, I think if you have a high enough SMV, women see this as a positive or at least a neutral.

        [–]Troll_Name 32 points33 points  (1 child)

        Marriage has a remarkable synergy with female hypergamy.

        [–]ApexmanRP 3 points4 points  (0 children)

        Marriage is one tool in women's sexual strategy.

        [–]1Entropy-7 6 points7 points  (1 child)

        It's what I call "serial polygamy".

        [–]ApexmanRP 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        Yes, and its coming to a town near you..

        [–]etherealembryo 3 points4 points  (1 child)

        I see this as they both are in the same place with their lives. I dated single mothers and there are things i dont do that guys with kids do automatically. I like my life with no kids.

        [–]ApexmanRP 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        I get you. I love my time without my kids now. I don't think i could live with them full time now.

        Men are meant to have a mission, not be nursemaids.

        [–]SKRedPill 2 points3 points  (1 child)

        No, it looks like this is a case of sharing beta providers.

        [–]ApexmanRP 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        I didn't say "sharing alphas" I said sharing the "best" men, and in Norway, yes that's betas with proven sperm.

        [–]dulkemaru51 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Just the 80/20 rule of forwarded genes...

        [–]UselessBrakes 135 points136 points  (10 children)

        I am norwegian and I would like to point out some things that could help explain why such a large porportion of men are deemed unattractive by women.

        1) The cost of living, and especially housing, is extremely expensive in Norway. It is impossible to buy a house with enough space for children unless both partners have a decent, full time job. This would give working-class men a huge disadvantage, because women are aware of the fact that the family would not be able to cope financially if a she chose such a man.

        2) Education is free and avalible to everyone in Norway (allthough students compete for the most attractive courses using grades from high school.) This means that hardworking men with good cognitive skills can easily make their way to good jobs. This causes both money and cognitive abilities to get concentrated in the top tier of society, making some men so attractive they get "recycled" by women.

        Any person could however get into a course that would give them a high-salary job, (not law, medicine or engineering, but still good high-paying jobs), but not everyone is able to complete the degrees. Working class men in Norway typically lack the mental capacity to get any education at all, and this is why they are stuck in the working class. Women value skills that are worth passing on to children as well as the ability to provide for said children when choosing a man. So the working class males lack both the cognitive skills as well as the money required to afford children at all. This makes them "twice" as uninteresting to women as a partner.

        3) Women perform better than men in school, so most students in courses like law and medicine in Norway are female. Since women prefer to date "up", this makes it difficult for some women to get a mate. The child-less 14% of norwegian women are often well educated and belong to the "cultural" upper tier of society. The 24% of childless men do however belong to the uneducated "underclass" of society. Even if both these groups wanted to find a partner and have a family, the "cultural" and class differences between them would make them a missmatch, not to mention they probably would not be able to provide for the family financially.

        4) Not only do women perform better than men in education. They are also a lot better at looking after their health, eating right, exercing and managing their money than men. This causes women to have better health, higher life life expectancy, (presumably better looks), and so on than men. Since women prefer to date "up" this makes the "mechanism" from point 3 even stronger.

        5) Women in Norway are a lot more social than men, and also make up the majority of students. This means that men who are students and also are outgoing will get in touch with a lot of women and probably have more luck in dating as a result. These men get "recycled" as boyfriends/sexual partners by many women.

        Men who are not students, and spend a lot of time at home or in male-dominated professions lack the platform for getting in touch with women at all. This makes the "gap" between working class males and females yet bigger.

        I hope this made sence. Apologies for my english :)

        [–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 11 points12 points  (1 child)

        They are also a lot better at looking after their health, eating right, exercing and managing their money than men.

        Health yes - women don't hesitate to turn to others for health. Managing their money? Really? Are Norwegian women different to the rest of the world? Because in the US/UK, women have less expenses and men pay for more dates. Women get better social support and men pay more tax. Women don't save because they know they'll get married. Men build their lives hoping to attract a mate.

        This causes women to have better health, higher life life expectancy, (presumably better looks), and so on than men.

        Women likely have a higher inherent biological life expectancy, due to pursuing a lower risk life strategy. Workplace death is higher in men which contributes to lower life expectancy.

        Are you sure you're not being misled by a narrative that blames men?

        Not only do women perform better than men in education.

        Women perform better in the current gynocentric education system. Men used to perform better, but they changed all the education types. When women underperformed, the world screamed "change the education system, it must be wrong!". Now that men underperform, we simply blame men for under performing.

        Women get support. Men get blame.

        [–]Kinbaku_enthusiast 17 points18 points  (3 children)

        Previous studies have shown that in the West on average, men pay taxes and women get benefits over the course of their life. It's net theft from men and given to women. Without this, women would want working class men for their money.

        But the state is already giving them their money, so why would they have to offer anything in return like fertility?

        And I expect that in Norway, like in other feminist countries (aka the west), education has been restructured for female performance, which is why women perform better in school.

        I reckon the gap of where men and women meet is the tiniest of all these effects; if it was in women's interest they would find the men.

        [–]UselessBrakes 12 points13 points  (1 child)

        Allthough there might be some truth in this, the 25% bottom of men will typically be in low income-jobs, on wellfare or unemployed, and have worse health than average. So these men are also typically net recievers of benefits in society.

        If anything, lack of state benefits would give women an extra incentive to «share» a top, wealthy male instead of getting a poorer/less healthy man for themselves.

        [–]Kinbaku_enthusiast 5 points6 points  (0 children)

        All accurate, but I still think you miss the bigger picture.

        Only those who manage to attract from the top get to share the top.

        When survival is at stake, a low income male is desirable because at least it is an income-male.

        And there's an inherent risk to trying to share a man; you might easily fall out of favor and support. Now the risk isn't so big, because it just means she has less money. But when the risk is starvation or complete destitution instead as it was before the welfare state, then plenty of cautious women wouldn't have gambled after mr. christian grey, but taken security with Bob from around the corner.

        After all, when given a choice, women will choose security over opportunity nearly every time. But when they get security for free, with no duties or responsibilities, they'll take opportunity as well.

        [–]WelfareWarriorZ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        Norwegian american here, Jeg kommer du fra kristiansand. I learned a lot from what you've stated in your near perfect english. Now laugh at my norsk. Tusen takk :)

        [–][deleted]  (21 children)

        [deleted]

        [–]Reven311[S] 4 points5 points  (13 children)

        Yes, but a higher proportion of men are not reproducing in Norway vs other Western nations. This is a problem for the useless middle-aged men of society that will inevitably die alone.

        [–][deleted]  (7 children)

        [deleted]

          [–]Reven311[S] 8 points9 points  (6 children)

          Lots of western countries have high taxes and prices. It's the extreme egalitarianism and feminism that creates a larger group of useless males. Women rule Norway to a large extent, so they have imposed a system that favors their reproduction to a large extent as well.

          Sure, but its not my problem.

          By your own admission it will eventually be a problem that will affect your life when the mass of useless men grows too large, it will reach a breaking point and chaos will ensue.

          [–]bob13bob 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          I think this has more to do with behavioral economics than human attraction. rich baby daddy vs poor baby daddy. the decision to abort or keep a child or even to get pregnant might have 1m incentive to it, and many know it. if we saw who was having sex vs who was having kids, then we might see better data on attraction.

          many if not most industrialized nations have VATS or some other kind of tariff. that actually work to protect the middle class. I advocate one in the USA to have one as well.

          there are things happening at hte bototm and top of the spectrum. at the poor end of the spectrum there is truth to welfare state suporting a certain tier of lifestyle. one might argue that public school itself is a social welfare (it is) and middle class people wouldn't be able to have 4 kids without it. The state and tax base is definitely getting cucked. However in USA, the problem is is more than child welfare (a non voting base), it's social security and military and other corporate welfare, 50% military and 25% social security of our fed budget. it's my incentive to grow tax paying paying smart americans, while i'm paying lockheed for bombers to blowup shanty towns in the middle of nowhere. aso social secuirty is not self-paid, is always paid for by the next generation.

          at the top end, a "decent" life will need a rather well off man.

          how do we define "outcompete". we know how many offspring, but many men now are refusing to have kids how might have 10x the sexual partners as a median man.

          i won't criticize women for wanting to pair up with a well off man. As a man, I select for earning power, as do most men in silicon valley.

          [–][deleted]  (62 children)

          [deleted]

          [–]Reven311[S] 80 points81 points  (42 children)

          I don't think the majority of it is voluntary, it's involuntary because men are less attractive with less money in comparison to women who can support themselves to a large extent.

          [–]ucfgavin 60 points61 points  (7 children)

          That, and because women still shoot for men on a higher rung of the ladder, the bar is automatically set higher to that bottom 25%.

          [–][deleted] 51 points52 points  (6 children)

          This is the truth. If median income for women rises, then we can easily assume the median woman will see a shrinking pool of "acceptable" men to breed with. As women would choose to only breed with men who make more or are of higher social status. Women won't breed down.

          [–]Unrealenting 16 points17 points  (5 children)

          Keep in mind that wealth is a merely an ascetic to genetic value. As equity rises women require men less and thus select to mate with men who have high genetic value regardless of wealth, eroding the ethical consequences of such pursuits through misdirection and social destabilization until it is normalized. Wealth is a man's concession in courtship to supplement his masculine phenotypical expression and genetic value, not a woman's. If they can do without a man's money they will gladly do so and pursue their masculine ideal through their hypergamous impetus.

          [–]Hoodwink 5 points6 points  (1 child)

          genetic value, not a woman's

          Just a note that this can be complicated with enough wealth. Women can 'buy' beauty through surgery, make-up, and healthy-living. It's not guaranteed, and it's a choice they make with their money, but the connection between money and beauty is there.

          [–]Unrealenting 8 points9 points  (0 children)

          Guys aren't too picky when they're horny and want something to fuck and no one will find out about it, even, and perhaps especially, Alphas. Women have a MUCH higher standard for physical aesthetics when it comes to sexual selection than males. No matter how she looks there will almost always be an Alpha Male willing to fuck down that she can get sex from.

          [–]mcbenzene 39 points40 points  (33 children)

          This makes me feel bad for incels...

          [–]Reven311[S] 51 points52 points  (30 children)

          It should, because you have a normal level of empathy for people who don't deserve to be forever alone through no fault of their own.

          [–][deleted]  (29 children)

          [removed]

            [–]upyoars 39 points40 points  (4 children)

            Losing the genetic lottery doesn't mean there's no hope. Thats a horrible mindset. Hard work 100% trumps everything. A guy who learned red-pill and trained specifically to become an alpha after being a beta for many years can exceed a "natural alpha" who got everything good going for him since birth in regards to reproductive success and all the traits an alpha should have. "Natural" alphas tend to take things for granted and havent developed a strong work ethic to overcome hardships and adversity in life.

            [–]Reven311[S] 20 points21 points  (3 children)

            That's true, hard work goes a long way, but you have to fight past the depression and push forward no matter what. That takes real grit, which unfortunately a lot of weak men are lacking in.

            [–]Yourstruly777 2 points3 points  (1 child)

            That is also in the genetic lottery, obviously.

            [–]Reven311[S] 2 points3 points  (17 children)

            If society collapses there is hope... and that may be exactly what happens.

            [–]Unrealenting 7 points8 points  (16 children)

            No there isn't. Collapse would equalize everyone and leave most men out of the gene pool, as is already happening now through the slow and inevitable collapse of the republic. However, being in this sub and being aware of this information puts you closer to the winning side of this inequity.

            [–]Reven311[S] 10 points11 points  (12 children)

            Collapse means women can no longer support themselves economically or feed their own children or protect themselves. This is why society imposed monogamy on the world in the first place, it's the only stable form of reproduction in the long run, unless you live as hunter/gatherers (which cannot support a large population, only farming can).

            [–]Unrealenting 5 points6 points  (11 children)

            Neither will men. And women don't find men that are equal to them, especially in terms of scarcity, sexually viable.

            Chaos is, above all else, fair and equal. Chaos is the enemy of the male mating strategy. As we creep further into economic collapse women will require men less and less, accelerating their hypergamy and allowing them to mate solely with men who have an inequitable advantage in terms of genetic value, which is largely unchangeable. The inability of men to usurp this mating strategy and the Chaos it feeds on is through the Order created by financial inequity, wherein a man can work hard and overcome his genetic inequities by greatly increasing his provisional value through monetary acquisition that is far higher than what a woman can achieve, allowing her to enter into the civic contract of monogamy and rearing children without the fear that your provisional value will falter and leave her and her offspring incapable of surviving without having to labor at an equal level to you. It's what the whole damn system is built on. It's why men build technology and form armies, to establish order through Patriarchal Rule wherein the Man has enough resources relative to the woman that she needn't ever worry about your ability to protect and provide for her and her children.

            As this Order collapses Women will go back to the old days of r-selection mating strategies, choosing to mate only with those that have the highest genetic value in terms of being able to deal with the ever present physical threats of a Chaotic environment. Most men can't compete under this Matriarchal Rule and will be cast out of the gene pool by women due to the exploitability of their genetic weaknesses by braver, smarter, and stronger men in the absence of the protection that high provision capabilities and resource abundance affords them in an Ordered society with well-defined social/financial classes that reject and shame those who do not conform to them.

            [–]Reven311[S] 5 points6 points  (9 children)

            If it's unsafe for a female to leave the house without being raped during this chaos, it sounds like they will need a man to protect them, even if it's a beta. One alpha isn't going to protect a harem of women during chaos. Women need to extract male protection and provisioning via sex during chaotic times, which basically dominated through most of the dark ages of Europe. When women are stripped of capacity to provide for themselves their only choice is a dependable beta that won't leave her to die. Mating with just the highest value males during chaos won't help when he disappears to fuck another woman. You're underestimating how helpless women really are absent an efficient and technological police state protecting them from the cold hard reality of this world.

            [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorRian_Stone 1 point2 points  (1 child)

            feel bad for this:

            1 charismatic leader can tap into their grievances to get all manner of things done, usually not to help the status quo

            [–]Linoran 38 points39 points  (5 children)

            Maybe then women will put in some effort again to be desirable. Just look at the UK, the women are garbage.

            [–]Guardian_of_Justice 3 points4 points  (4 children)

            I've heard this so much. Why is that?

            [–]DodgedAFew 7 points8 points  (1 child)

            Get fat very quickly. Then get tattoos and fake tan to counterbalance that.

            [–]Guardian_of_Justice 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            And still shoot for a top Chad 8/10?

            [–]atlastic1 3 points4 points  (0 children)

            Viking raids centuries ago of what is now Britain took the best looking girls, leaving behind our 'genetically inferior' ancestors, who produced ugly kids for generations.

            We really need some better genetic stock to immigrate, but the xenophobia makes this impossible.

            [–]1TheDreadnought1 13 points14 points  (0 children)

            This is the second sexual revolution

            [–]Parara_papapapaVeis 9 points10 points  (0 children)

            A supermodel that won't betray you, and won't feel disdain if you can't pay the bills

            [–]Throwaway_Old_Guy 5 points6 points  (0 children)

            They will likely incorporate a special receptacle to keep the deposited sperm viable so it can be harvested for IVF to waiting patients.

            You won't have to deal with women, but you'll still have to pay.

            [–]NSFWIssue 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            It will never be exactly voluntary, just stronger and stronger bait to the NEET side of masculinity

            [–]Joey_Lopez 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            It's probably more due to the fact that females have less need for a BB. So when they don't need a BB it's only the Alpha Fuxs that reproduce. I just wonder what will happen to society once the red pill goes mainstream and men decide that there is no point in being a BB. Why become an account or scientist when you can get more pussy by going to the gym instead?

            [–]Kinbaku_enthusiast 3 points4 points  (5 children)

            Why fuck a "real" girl when you could have a supermodel identical to the real thing?

            Because every sense in your body will tell you it is as fake as your hand.

            [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

            Good point actually, a lot of the pleasure comes from mentally knowing you’ve achieved sex with a desirable chick. But sex robots would still stave off the general thirst of the male population

            [–]Federkiel 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Maybe to get out of society and get enlightened? To have the chance to get to see that´s all one laughable game.

            [–]Wrath_of_Trump 30 points31 points  (36 children)

            Sometimes you have to force people to be free. Their individualist ideology masquerades as freedom, but they live in misery. You are watching the birth of fascism around the world as men face the crisis of oblivion and feel powerless in their own world, they will embrace someone who channels their frustration and promises to fix it even if it means a radical, top-down reorganization of society at the barrel of a gun. They would rather serve than die, and they're not wrong.

            [–]Reven311[S] 21 points22 points  (32 children)

            This is why white men without a college degree voted for Trump overwhelmingly in record numbers. They're voting like they're under threat, and they're not wrong. They're seeking a peaceful resolution to the current state of affairs, but it doesn't appear likely they will be satisfied in the current political dynamic.

            [–]Wrath_of_Trump 12 points13 points  (28 children)

            It's also how Iran went from bikinis to burkas in the 70's. I don't think the US will get to that point, but it will become inhospitable for many people. Concessions will be made in order to keep the gravy train rolling, we may see more conservative leaders roll back laws to give the impressions things are changing, but in reality its water under bridge. Men have to learn to reject feminism, and reject being told that their nature is evil and has no place in the world. And they will, it's a foregone conclusion, even if that means all the betas have to die. The offspring of alphas in a hypergamous world means an increase in masculine men (with no fathers) who will lead the world into renewed conflict for superiority once modern history begins to fade into irrelevancy.

            [–]Reven311[S] 6 points7 points  (27 children)

            I'm not a fan of Iran, but they did recognize the threat that feminism poses to infect their society and destroy it from within. I'm not a fan of Islam, but at least they got rid of the feminism. They didn't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater and become a regressive regime though. But maybe that unavoidable. I don't precisely know.

            [–]Wrath_of_Trump 4 points5 points  (24 children)

            The regime has to reflect the views of the people, people are comfortable keeping their culture at the expense of being not being exposed to foreign influence. The west has a problem in that feminism was born out of it and can't disown it, it can only radically change the conditions that allow for it by reverting or creating a new social order. Whatever it chooses will be the will of the next 2 or 3 generations who are the offspring of the highly-selected males.

            [–]Reven311[S] 6 points7 points  (22 children)

            The percentage of muslim men in Norway expanded by 50% in the last 6 years (before the recent Syrian migration). This is going to end by cultural replacement by men who will not put up with women who demand equality. Then the displaced white men will maybe join Islam in solidarity with the newcomers who seek to overturn the old order and establish patriarchy once again.

            [–]Wrath_of_Trump 2 points3 points  (21 children)

            I only see the betas joining Islam, making it more impotent after they perversely try to westernize it. By the time they actually have any numbers, a good portion of them will be LGBT friendly. They won't feel the existential crisis, they won't feel a need to fight for Islam or the west. They aren't fighters, period, and the ones who left their country did so in cowardice not as conquerors. When it gets hot, they'll leave just like they did before.

            [–]Reven311[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

            I dunno, it will certainly be fascinating to see how it all unfolds. I don't see Muslim men giving up their way of life and embracing a faggot's way of life.

            [–]Wrath_of_Trump 4 points5 points  (0 children)

            A generation of boomers who have it good can ruin everything. The Muslims who really wanted to live what they believed all got exterminated, it's really cruel how the west built them up to murder them.

            [–]Europe4ever 4 points5 points  (1 child)

            Freedom can be so much, for example this degenerate world we live in today. Men are cast aside, western leaders replacing their own kin, flamboyant/degenerate = brave etc. I don't know what the best option is, but Fascism is better than where we are and where we are heading. It's not the boogeyman.

            The freedom fetish we have seen the last 70 years have done tremendous damage to our world because children have been taught all and any freedoms are good no matter what. Freedom is a neutral term with positives and negatives, but when society solely focuses on the positive aspects of freedom the negative can flourish. Freedom to destroy cultures from within, freedom to do what ever we want despite the cost on everything which made our lives possible in the first place. Freedom to destroy the heritage we are leaving or descendants and the freedom to celebrate ourselves as progressives as we do it. Freedom to do whatever we want includes negatives. Liberalism is degeneracy.

            [–]Reven311[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Freedom has to be balanced by responsibility. If people shirk their responsibilities, then they have to be forced to comply. It's as simple as that. Dark days are ahead, but there's light at the end of the tunnel eventually.

            [–]Hjalmbere 58 points59 points  (5 children)

            I would really like to see details on ethnicity. It might very well be that recent immigrants bring the total of non-reproducing males down since many of them are in arranged marriages. Among ethnic Norwegians it's probably higher.

            I would also be really interested in seeing stats on the correlation between men not reproducing and factors such as body fat percentage, iq, geography (bigger or smaller cities), alcohol consumption, gaming, drug abuse, whether non-reproductive men are sons of single mothers, have sisters, and porn consumption.

            [–][deleted] 38 points39 points  (4 children)

            I'd say the opposite. Immigrants tend to have many kids; they're your social stability when you can no longer work. If you have no pension, you rely on your kids.

            As a result, among ethnic Norwegians, I'd say the percentage of men who are fatherless is much higher.

            [–]chinawinsworlds 9 points10 points  (0 children)

            Probably correct. Many of us CHOOSE to not get kids. I could easily be a father in 9 months if I wanted to, but why would I? I like spending time without kids there.

            [–][deleted]  (1 child)

            [deleted]

              [–]Hjalmbere 9 points10 points  (0 children)

              Immigration to Scandinavian countries have shifted from European neighbors to far off clan cultures that are considerably more resistant to the allure of secularism and birth control. I think you will find that the birth rate of the second generation of today’s newcomers will not drop as much as the birth rate of second generation Greek or Yugoslav immigrants that came in the 70s or 80s did.

              [–]HerbertRTarlekJr 29 points30 points  (3 children)

              Yeah, but the most worthless males in the US have babies like mad, and their baby mamas get money from the taxpayers.

              [–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (1 child)

              Thats because they are too stupid to use birth control. The majority of Chads aren’t knocking girls up because they and the girls they bang are upper middle class people who can put on a condom or eat a fucking pill once a day. If birth control disappeared tomorrow and we didn’t adjust our behavior upper middle class Chads would be popping out kids left and right.

              [–]Reven311[S] 15 points16 points  (0 children)

              That's too far down the rabbit hole and beyond the scope of this discussion.

              [–]bob13bob 32 points33 points  (26 children)

              interesting, wonder if we'll return to the 2:1 reproduction ratio rate that's been that way for most human history. I'd like to see this from economic terms. Women in the states are very strongly incentivized to have a richer baby daddy thanks to higher child support.

              is this a mental calculation, in violation of a women's old lizard brain to be attracted to strong?

              Also, imo gym is a smaller part of the equation than perceived intelligence, which is why college professors have women throwing themselves at them.

              [–]Incel9876 62 points63 points  (18 children)

              gym is a smaller part of the equation than perceive intelligence, which is why college professors and have women throwing themselves at them.

              College profs have women throwing themselves at them, because Beta Bux, women taking the path of least resistance to pass their classes, not because of any perception of intelligence. For women in the military, it is their drill sergeants, for women at work, their bosses.

              [–]justtenofusinhere 38 points39 points  (0 children)

              That's likely only a small part, the larger part is the contextual alpha. The professor is king of his class. He stands up in front and commands all attention, and grants all grades based on his perception of worth. So, he has status, power and ability and all the girls have to cowtow to him giving him instant social proof.

              [–]bob13bob 30 points31 points  (15 children)

              there is definitely sexual strategy, but it's more than that. IMO women are attracted to pwer, whether that is physical, mental, or financial strength more than just beta bux. they like musicians even though that means poor for the most part. women's top fantasies are vampires, werewovles, billionairs, doctors. you don't need to sexually fantasize about a billionaire who has zero chance of taking care of you.

              correction/clarification: as peterson states in the link below, women are attracted to people at hte top of the.dominance hierarchy. most typical google searches for harlequin stories are piarate, werewolves, vampires, surgeons, billionaires.

              [–]Troll_Name 45 points46 points  (0 children)

              Women's sexual strategy is the core of their power strategy.

              Men's power strategy is the core of their sexual strategy.

              [–]ChadwickChadington 5 points6 points  (13 children)

              women's top fantasies are vampires, werewovles, billionairs, doctors

              Is this a proven thing?

              I'm really surprised if it is, but the world is full of surprises.

              [–]Proto_Sigma 13 points14 points  (12 children)

              Right here, bucko.

              The link is a video summarizing the findings of the data, but there's another link to the book proper in the description. It's called ' A Billion Wicked Thoughts' and supposedly it summarizes search history of different demographics with regards to porn, amongst other things.

              [–]ChadwickChadington 3 points4 points  (2 children)

              That's really crazy.

              I kind of get vampires, especially with all the teen-vampire-soap-operas (though is an effect or the cause I wonder), but werewolves ... very curious.

              ::Edit:: You forgot pirates.

              [–]WarViper1337 4 points5 points  (1 child)

              I would imagine the movie series "twilight" made werewolves quite popular. There was a small explosion of werewolf based teen dramas that hit streaming services not long after the twilight movies.

              [–]Solitary_Solidarity 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              But thats shit not even real, I don't understand.

              [–]financialwar 2 points3 points  (1 child)

              what the fuck is 2:1 reproduction ratio?

              [–]Origami84 5 points6 points  (3 children)

              Maybe, but only in the short term. While i hope it will take as long as possible, war between major powers will eventually come back. It can be easily imagine what the destruction of the welfare state (due to lack of funds now needed for war operations) and a dramatic reduction in the number of man will reinstate a civilization more similar to that of the last century.

              That, or islam will conquer europe - with a forced monogamy for women, that will help in equalize the number of couples.

              [–]Hjalmbere 20 points21 points  (1 child)

              Forced polygamy you mean? And lots of poor dudes who don't get laid and decide to blow themselves up so they can get access to Alan Snackbar's 48 virgins.

              [–]Parara_papapapaVeis 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              Well it really depends from the sect.

              [–][deleted] 46 points47 points  (8 children)

              Don’t worry, this is all according to plan, 30 year old Abdullah and the rest of the refugees of peace will be arriving shortly to spread cultural enrichment in the form of gang rape and no go zones! Prepare to meet the ‘New Norwegians’.

              [–]Unrealenting 27 points28 points  (5 children)

              It's the Norwegians' fault for becoming gaping pulsating pussies.

              Edit: Women don't like weak men who make concessions to please them. Don't downvote me for stating the truth you retards.

              [–]Parara_papapapaVeis 5 points6 points  (3 children)

              Well they voted for radical feminist to get the power, naturally they got feminized, soon the muslins in Noway will get as well.

              [–]Venny_1 3 points4 points  (2 children)

              Are you insinuating that muslims are prone to being effected by feminism? Very few of them sure, but that's about it. Muslim communities tend to open closed: open in the sense that they welcome outsiders to step in and get a peek, maybe become part of the community themselves (conversion), yet closed in the sense that they don't allow outside culture/ ideology to compete with theirs, be it in dialog or debate.

              [–][deleted]  (1 child)

              [deleted]

                [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                When one recognises the vast corrupting forces at work behind the scenes, one shouldn’t react in anger toward those who fall prey to it. A great man once said this about Socialism, a builder breaks his back for little pay, and the unions use his bitter resentment for their own aims.

                A blue pilled European man is simply a product of a vile and sinister cultural narrative, and while it is pointless to try and save him, your scorn should be directed at the weak philosophy that made him, your kinsman, the pitiable creature he is.

                [–]iLoveReddit32 51 points52 points  (18 children)

                Fuck getting married and fuck having children. No thanks.

                [–]miserablesisyphus 15 points16 points  (11 children)

                Do you mind explaining why you don't want children? To each his own, but i feel one of the low resolution purposes of life is to pass your genes on, if you are worthy.

                [–][deleted]  (4 children)

                [deleted]

                  [–]iLoveReddit32 5 points6 points  (3 children)

                  I am depressed and go through bouts of wanting to kill myself. I couldn't leave a possible wife and children with the possibility of living without me. Better to just not get involved. Furthermore, the world is super fucked up and miserable, why bring another human into the world?

                  [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                  IMO, I would never have a child unless I could be totally sure I’d have the proper time, effort, and resources to devote to its upbringing.

                  I think it’s immoral to just pop out a kid with no real plan and hope everything turns out okay.

                  [–]StandardBoilerplate 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                  Without kids you have time to accrue certain knowledge that parents don't have the time for, then passing that knowledge on can give a worthwhile purpose.

                  [–]U-94 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                  I dislike children and every time I sit on an airplane that point gets hammered home further.

                  [–]iLoveReddit32 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  I am depressed and go through bouts of wanting to kill myself. I couldn't leave a possible wife and children with the possibility of living without me. Better to just not get involved. Furthermore, the world is super fucked up and miserable, why bring another human into the world?

                  [–]amedeo_modigliani 7 points8 points  (0 children)

                  Good. Lesson 2: Fuck LTR and fuck living with a woman.

                  [–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (3 children)

                  Great post. There’s one quality post like this that actually teaches us stuff for every 100 “pulled a number at the gym” stories.

                  The more power women get, the more fucked we are. The primary foundation of all civilization is men agreeing to take one wife so that everyone can reproduce. Unrestrained female sexuality leads inexorably to harems and the collapse of motivation to maintain the civilization. Men are civilization. Women are just here for the ride.

                  [–]Reven311[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                  Thank you. This is why feminists are not opposed to millions of Muslim immigrants who want to keep women under control. They are shit testing the beta men that are going along with this, and finding them unworthy of reproduction, so society collapses and/or gets replaced by masculine men who put feminists in their place again.

                  [–]yeaiwearkhakis 3 points4 points  (1 child)

                  Well said.

                  The reason betas even exist is because even though they lose against alpha chad one in one in sexual competition, beta heavy societies crush societies where sexual selection is more r-selection, harems, and polygamy.

                  [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  Yep. Nothing motivates a man to work more than the promise of being rewarded some pussy in the end.

                  [–]ROLLTIDE4EVER 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                  The Ballad of Mt. Naryama mentions of sexless men who were basically at the bottom of societal totem pole. This was in pre-modern Japan.

                  [–]The_Chiselnator 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                  The paper literally writes itself. This is not good. Because the only reason betas go to work their three shit jobs for 18 hours a day is because they were promised a woman by the Patriarchy if only they keep their heads down, work hard and don't upset the system.

                  Fucking with the world's betas (as is happening everywhere) is counter-productive. Who is going to do your taxes? Dig your ditches? Mine your coal? keep your books? Buy your football jerseys?

                  You see, women being the perpetual victims they are think that patriarchy was designed to oppress them. It was actually intended to help Betas make up for what they lack in personality/physique/temperament and elevate their other qualities so that they can pair up with an average woman, have a couple of kids and society thrives.

                  Now you have feral women who can't shag Billy the Beta at least so that he can continue building the next app/gadgetry.

                  [–]victordmor 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                  And we keep going downhill, fellas. Brace yourselves.

                  [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorRian_Stone 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                  I jokingly called this a "crowd sourced modern eugenics program."

                  The most I see, the less of a joke it seems to be.

                  [–]Reven311[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  Eugenics is just positive evolution, but regression is possible via dysgenics too.

                  [–]ItsCold_ItsCold 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                  TL;DR More and more women are entering harems with Chads and taking turns having their babies.

                  [–]redpilledcuck 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                  Women are nature's breeding vats and to some degree selection filter. Men are nature's genetic experimental testing ground, where she can go wild and free with new configurations that can either fuck up badly or be wildly successful. Since it only takes 1 dick to impregnate 99 wombs rather than the other way around, you can extrapolate what this means for women and successful males.

                  [–]Reven311[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  Yes, precisely correct, but this breeding style destroys civilizations if left unchecked by men who build civilizations.

                  [–]wanderer779 3 points4 points  (3 children)

                  The basic argument is that the bar is being raised for men to have mating rights. You'd think that should be a good thing for society. But there's a few problems:

                  1. The bar isn't being raised for women. Wouldn't it do even more to raise the quality of our stock if we also had some sort of competitive pressure on women?
                  2. The women are doing the selecting and they suck at it. Women aren't attracted to intelligence, otherwise the robotics club dudes would be drowning in pussy while the football team sat at home jacking off. Instead women just keep chasing tall handsome dudes. When it comes to mate selection software, they're still running version 1.0 from 10,000 years ago. Men naturally are dancing to the tune the women are calling. Look at the advice here, it's mostly peacocking. Not knocking it, it works for getting laid, but I can't say that it's the most pro-social program we could have come up with.
                  3. What are we going to do with all these men? VR porn, video games? Remove the stigma for suicide? What if that doesn't work? Drum up another war every generation to kill them off? So far we've tried ignoring them, and lecturing them about being nice (as if that was going to work) and now it looks like plan b is going to be insulting and belittling them. Not sure what that's going to do, but it seems to be the approach we're going towards.

                  [–]Reven311[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                  Women's sexual selection is still programmed like we all live in caves and hunt and gather fruit from trees every day to survive. That's the depth of their selection criteria, and it's inherently destructive to civilizations, which is why men built concepts like monogamy and disallowed sex before marriage to ensure beta males had access to sex which encourage social stability and productivity.

                  [–]danielj61373 3 points4 points  (1 child)

                  "Females have re-established a sexual dynamic via education and birth control that favors their reproductive strategies again after centuries of repression." Finally an evolutionary psychology based answer to this modern cultural shift

                  [–]1v1crown 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                  At one point in human history it was 1 father for 17 mothers. The alpha/beta dynamic seen in animals such as lions is very strong in humans. The only reason we see birth rates by both men/women in similar numbers now is because we created an artificial and sterile environment where anyone can get lucky and have sex. If this crumbles, we will go back to increased alpha/beta dynamics and female hypergamy will go further unchecked, with the females clamoring for the attention of the top alpha male in droves.

                  [–]xXxsnabelmannxXx 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                  Norwegian here. The women here are also very slutty, in their high school years they fuck around with all the local chads before they move to the cities to study, at this point they are already affected by alpha widow syndrome. I personally think this is the main reason we see so many beta males not having sex and children here. Also, most of the beta males are pretty blue pilled who dosen't understand women at all, all a result of our society push to make masculinity seem like a unfavourable trait and a negative view of men in general - men should act more like women is the mantra. And it all boils down to socialism, the root of decay of any society.

                  [–]Nergaal 4 points5 points  (15 children)

                  You have it all wrong. WHEN agriculture was invented, a single male would have offsprings for every 3017 females with offsprings. That means that only 6% of males had viable offsprings (that had kids who further had kids and didn't die of starvation). That was a huge driving force for evolution when agriculture was invented. TBH, I would not be surprised if most of population differences today occur because in certain parts of the world, agriculture, and women-driven selection has been happening since earlier, and thus, has lead to average individuals today with [inset_phenotype] that are present in certain parts.

                  Christianity only in the past 2k years has advocated monogamy and made sure that most males get offsprings. With the averages from before, only like 40% of males who ever lived have left offsprings today, while for women is like 80%.

                  edit: chimps and apparently earlier human societies were very socialistic in their setup; agriculture enabled the competence hierarchy to dominate any other hierarchy, which led to human society greatly changing in the past 8k years compared to any other period Homo Sapiens and its interbreeding cousins have existed. COmpetence hierarchy means if you are a male who can sustain 17 females, all those females will instinctually (from natural selection of their ancestors) flock to you.

                  [–]turpin23 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                  You're confusing the odd, rare massive military conquest with the typical situation.

                  [–]bob13bob 5 points6 points  (3 children)

                  that 17:1 one period there is a lot of unknowns on why that happened, only speculation. IT only happened during a very short period. could have been a disease that wiped out 90% of men for all we know.

                  [–]Senior Contributordr_warlock 5 points6 points  (5 children)

                  That's because polygamy was the norm for most of human history (as many as you could afford). P re-agriculatural conditions just made it limited because of the 'resource ceiling' from hunting and gathering. When agriculture came about, it lifted the 'resource ceiling' allowing for the SAME top men to accumulate more women and more children from each. Old men at the top hoarded tons of women as they each reached puberty, adding to their harem throughout their whole life-time, kicking out the boys once they became a sexual threat. That's devastating to the gene pool.

                  [–]Nergaal 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  That's devastating to the gene pool.

                  And perfectly great for artificial selection

                  [–]Reven311[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

                  And their farms were probably burnt down by thousands of men who became roaming warlords.

                  [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                  [deleted]

                    [–]Nergaal 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                    https://psmag.com/environment/17-to-1-reproductive-success

                    Apparently it was 17-to-1 only. Not sure why I recalled 30-1.

                    [–]chinawinsworlds 7 points8 points  (29 children)

                    Norwegian here, I don't want kids. Want to get a vasectomy, but I'm too young and the doctors here are not kind enough to make an exception. Considering Germany.

                    [–]solstone109 1 point2 points  (6 children)

                    I don't understand the wording of the last paragraph of OP's post. Can someone explain it to me like I'm 5?

                    [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (3 children)

                    I think OP’s characterization of the shift is anachronistic (i.e. it isn’t “re-establishing” some primordial matriarchal paradigm). When a social animal has unlimited resources and no predators it degenerates into full dysgenics until it collapses, removing the security of unlimited resources/no predators (nature or enemies) and men re-establish dominance by being the source of security. This quickly culls the useless men and disobedient women who refuse to fall into the new pecking order. Transgender/homosexuality, liberal sexuality, low marriage rates, single motherhood, open borders immigration, destruction of national heroes/language are all typical symptoms of a system in collapse.

                    This is a cyclical process of collapse that has happened in literally every empire to exist. Nature isn’t dumb. It’s just brutal.

                    [–]zaparans 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    So essentially there is no need for red pill beta Mayes. Shocking.

                    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                    [deleted]

                    [–]Reven311[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                    Find a woman in Hungary or Poland, go on vacation there, don't use a service.

                    [–]FANAT1CAL_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    A lot of comments are correlating childless guys with incels when if it's anywhere like where I live, there's lots of girls who want kids but can't find a guy who can be bothered. Most guys are chadding it up in hookup culture and are not trying to form families. So the women who want one are just picking guys with track record of happily paying child support. I could have had kids with 20+women had I chosen to put the"let's have kids" moves on them but I prefer a very high income and a soft harem with variety. I'm not some exception, consider every girl you've dated and you'll have a couple you know would have happily been your baby momma...

                    [–][deleted]  (3 children)

                    [deleted]

                    [–]Reven311[S] 3 points4 points  (2 children)

                    Feminism is a shit test on whether society deserves to survive or not and/or be replaced by anti-feminist cultures and masculine men from more primitive lands and cultures that will tear down and destroy everything their fathers and grandfathers built for them.

                    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                    [deleted]

                      [–]Reven311[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                      Stay strong and keep supporting politicians like Trump and we might just achieve that someday.

                      [–]VanityKings 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                      I'm more and more entertaining the idea of paying an attractive and healthy woman to carry my child but to also have her remove herself entirely from the child's life as soon as it is born.
                      Probably going to go this route if I ever get wealthy enough to make it happen

                      [–]BroMuch 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                      I love redpill but I not everything has to do with redpill. I believe this has to do with developed nations. Poorer nations have higher birthrates then developed nations, that's a no brainier.

                      Even in the US we have seen a decline in birthrates, and when you see a poorer nations, third world countries, become more developed their birthrates will decline and equalize.

                      It's a biological emparative to reproduce in times when there is uncertianty that your children will survive. Just look at England during the industrial revolution.

                      Every species has this. For example, Mice and bats have similar metabolism but the life span of a bat far out weighs that of a rat, because there are no real predititors of bats there is no need to have an urgency to reproduce, and their biology can focus more on life expectancy.

                      I don't believe redpill is at work here bruh

                      [–]tux68 2 points3 points  (5 children)

                      As long as women are picking the strongest and best males to reproduce, wont this problem take care of itself in a few generations? The weakest males wont reproduce but future generations will be comprised of stronger seed so to speak. Unless I'm missing something.

                      [–]zaparans 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                      Women are picking the strongest and best males to reproduce and they aren’t beta male red pill dbags

                      [–]tux68 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                      Yeah, a success in Red Pill is inherently self limiting in an evolutionary sense. The guys most inclined to follow it will not be reproducing offspring of similar temperament.

                      Edit: I guess this would apply more to MGTOW than Red Pill, although I saw quite a few RP saying "hell no" to marriage and children.

                      [–]Rene-Girard 3 points4 points  (2 children)

                      Yes, you're missing something. Women in Niger have more than 6 children on average. Is the genes of the Nigerian man 4 times stronger than the genes of the Norwegian man?

                      [–]tux68 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                      Well granted it's tremendously complex. The mortality rate for offspring in Niger is a lot higher, so there won't be 6 successful reproducing offspring on average. But really the main point is, only people who are able to attract a mate will be reproducing, which should decrease the pool of unattractive mates in future generations within any given community.

                      [–]merkucjo 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                      What is percentage of gay people in Norway ? Should be excluded so math is correct

                      [–]Reven311[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                      There's about equal gays vs lesbians, so it doesn't matter, it balances out on both sides.

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