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Red Pill TheoryThe Problem With Nice Guys (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by 1roadmaptonowhere

Look in the mirror. If you see a saint, there is something deeply wrong with yourself and your self-perception. There is no such thing as "being a saint". Being human means having a dark side, that which Carl Jung called the "Shadow", that which grows stronger if repressed. Being human means having pervertions, feeling hatred or envy. There is nothing wrong with those things - on the contrary, they are perfectly normal, but they have to be incorporated into your life, or else they will destroy you.

In this sense, "being nice" is not being nice. It is playing a character, putting on a facade, performing an act - usually with the subconscious expectation and pretext of getting something back for putting everyone else on a pedestal. Also common, the belief that you have to be nice and upset noone. In reality, you're just a manifestation of a man who was brainwashed into being meek and, in the process, you lost connection with who you are. You grew up to the Disney utopia.

Maybe you put everyone else's opinions and priorities above your own, thinking that there is some kind of universal karma that will pay back to you in the form of a pussy who will love you forever and unconditionally. Because your perspective of the world is so delusional, you think that everyone else is just like you - special snowflakes - and that that girl who was too busy to go on a date with you must be telling the truth.

Your empathy is rewarded with contempt.

Eventually, there comes a time when you realize that something is wrong with you and, when that time comes, every resentment you ever denied feeling will punch you in the face. Your awakening will make you collapse. You will be not so nice then, will you?

This is the most important step into true masculinity. As Jordan Peterson puts it, "turn into a monster, but a civilized one".

"You gotta let them know what kind of guy you are, so they know what kind of girl to be. - Ken Cosgrove, Mad Men

A nice guy treats every women as a virgin princess. That's his frame. That's how you want them to be, so that's how they are to you. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

Get in touch with yourself once again. Realize the darkness that lingers inside you and embrace it. Redirect it. That's your edge - use it wisely.


[–][deleted] 438 points439 points  (40 children)

If only there was a book that pointed out how nice guys get fucked, and how to not be a nice guy any more.

"No More Mr. Nice Guy"

Now that's a catchy title. I should write a book.

[–]Work_In_Progress92 214 points215 points  (7 children)

Only a Rational Male would write such a book.

[–][deleted] 145 points146 points  (5 children)

first rule of fight club don't try to unplug The Manipulated Man.

[–]mrbfs 72 points73 points  (4 children)

The manipulated man needs to understand how to become a rational male by becoming no more mr nice guy first. After that he will need to use all his knowledge of the sex god methods to keep up.

[–]eccentricrealist 21 points22 points  (0 children)

And not give a fuck. Artistically. Subtly.

[–]Temptationn 19 points20 points  (1 child)

and after he becomes a sex god he’ll need to know the 48 laws of power

[–]Ivabighairy1 25 points26 points  (0 children)

Any Models for this?

[–]RedHoodhandles 9 points10 points  (0 children)

And he'd be waging sperm wars world wide.

[–]arrayay 2 points3 points  (0 children)

ening will make you collapse. You will be not so nice then, will you?

This is the most important step into true masculinity. As Jordan Peterson puts it, "turn into a monster, but a civilized one".

"You gotta let them know what kind of guy you are, so they know what kind o

And so you start a cheesy-but-aren't-we-so-clever-and-cute pun thread... in TRP...

[–]Picanhaloko 15 points16 points  (4 children)

The ultimate female fantasy: “date a bad boy, that cheqts, get all the girls. Than tame him into a nice guy.” End of story, its burnt into their minds.

[–]chrishagins 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Then divorce him, take half his shit and repeat the cycle.

[–]TucktheSnake 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This should not be down voted, it's true. You just never let them tame you and they are stuck needing "the bad boy" aka you.

[–]trapaik 1 point2 points  (0 children)

nice guys down voting this comment lmao, all facts.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A post should be made about this. This is war, gentlemen.

[–]bl1871 11 points12 points  (6 children)

Alright dude how do you manage this while keeping in mind that they don't want to "appear" to be whores so you can't always just say I want to fuck bend over bitch

[–]1YouLoveThisBTW 42 points43 points  (5 children)

They don’t want to be seen as whores by people who will judge them. You show them that you’re a player who has seen the slut come out in every woman he’s ever met, she will gladly show you her dark side. Then you get to fuck her in the ass.

Biggest mistake I made with my ex was reading her junior hs yearbook, where several people mentioned in notes to her that she had 11 guys that year. I found this very unsettling and couldn’t hide it. She knew I was judging her. She said “I thought you could handle it, I guess I was wrong”.

After that the sex was less intense, her submission harder to trigger and it took a while to get back to where we were. I’m not sure we ever did.

Good lines:

You’re such a slut, I love it.

Don’t hide that shit from me little girl, I know what a slut you are.

I love all the little parts of you, even the dirty ones.

They show you they are a slut, you reward it. Best reward? Fuck her like a whore.

I’d even go so far as to say that if some girl says to me “I’m not like that” when I try to finger her in public on our 2nd date, I drop her because she’s either repressed and no fun, or she’s “Saving the Best” aka not turned on enough by me to do it.

[–]mishasam89 27 points28 points  (3 children)

junior hs yearbook

u mean she fucked 11 guys in middleschool? lol

jesus, i feel like such a late bloomer.

[–]ShotgunTRP 23 points24 points  (0 children)

Girls can get into night clubs and fuck 30 year olds when they’re 15.

There’s almost no dude who is capable of this at 15

[–]1YouLoveThisBTW 6 points7 points  (0 children)

11 guys her junior year of hs

[–]Swelfie 11 points12 points  (0 children)

The greatest line ever, for me, is that every time she does something that you can sense for her was a little awkward and scary, you say powerfully "good girl." She begins to learn that the thing isn't judged, whatever that thing is. Her willingness to show you is judged as good, always. Then a flood of the sexiest stuff starts coming out and she can relax and give you what she wanted to but couldn't.

[–]EdmLoverReturns 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Also , Models: Attracting women through Honestly

[–]blkMGTOW07 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Absorbing all this info will put you on The Way of the Superior Man lol

[–]lookoutitscaleb -1 points0 points  (7 children)

I can't seem to find it. Who is the author of this book?

[–]ButteredPastry 86 points87 points  (15 children)

A little more context to that Jordan Peterson quote in your post

TL;DW: he quotes a bible verse that says "the meek shall inherit the world", but he could never understand it because it just didn't make sense, he then went to this bible internet forum where people would discuss the true meaning, and it turns out that "meek" is a poor translation. A more correct translation would be "those who have swords, and know how to use them, but keep them sheathed, will inherit the world"

[–]VaultGuy1995 13 points14 points  (7 children)

I'm the son of a former pastors and I never heard about that. Doesn't surprise me though, verses of the bible have been untranslated before.

[–]shadofx 8 points9 points  (6 children)

Because it's utter blasphemy. Here or here is the location on the biblehub website. No mention of swords, and the context is pretty clear that the emphasis is "meek" receiving good in contrast with "wicked" receiving punishment by God.

[–]ResponsibleSteak 7 points8 points  (1 child)

A lot of those quotes say humble instead of meek. Being humble implies you are capable but practice restraint.

[–]shadofx -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

humble

Only in relatively modern usage. Root word of "humble" is latin "humus" which means "ground", where the humble place their foreheads in subservience.

[–]VaultGuy1995 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Not a Christian myself, but I learned a lot about the bible from my dad growing up. He talked about mistranslations in other areas, but I don't remember him ever covering that one.

[–]Mojiitoo 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This reminds me of the 'be cruel' piece of Jordan Peterson.

Basically, you have to be able to be cruel. You cannot expect in life that nobody will be cruel to you, as opposed to what a nice guy would think. Knowing that you can be cruel, will prevent you from being walked over. For example, if you know martial arts/MMA it gives you an ability to be cruel when needed, so you wont get obliterated by somebody who is cruel. This can also be applied in other areas, not necessary physical. Basically being able to in any given situation you can stand your ground.

[–]IDJOM 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Read Nietzsche. The Christian conception of morality is based on being a pussy.

[–]Kafkaevsky 8 points9 points  (1 child)

Really? You think you know Nietzsche ?

[–]IDJOM 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Uh yes. He was pretty critical of Christian morality.

[–]WatashiContraMundum 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Until you realize that Christian tradition is filled with stories of people who were anything but pussies

[–][deleted] 198 points199 points  (73 children)

Nice guys aren't nice. Their behavior is born from weakness. Actual kindness comes from a place of strength and power, an absolute ability to destroy, but choosing not to.

Nice guys don't have that choice because they are mainly cowards that don't invest in themselves. So they adopt this strategy that relies on covert contracts. Nice guys have no frame, they continually adopt somebody else's in the hope that this will get them what they want.

But women are masters of covert contracts, and a nice guy always falls through. This is why they don't get laid. And they shouldn't get laid either, they are entirely unworthy.

[–]tybyday 109 points110 points  (51 children)

As a former nice guy and someone who is working through the reality of waking up to this horrible truth, what now? I look around me and realize how fucking shallow and self serving and shitty I am and others are most of the time. It’s been a year and all of my relationships have changed. I still act like my former self too often but I see now. When a girl asks me something in a kind way, all I feel now is manipulation. When a friend says ya we should do something soon but never calls, fuck him now. I’ve gone from a nice guy to seeing life as a dystopian nightmare. I don’t feel capable of connecting with others anymore. I don’t want to hear myself say a single word I don’t mean anymore. I don’t give a fuck about being nice when someone else is being shitty. And now I feel completely isolated. What now?

[–]BluPillMaster-bater 26 points27 points  (26 children)

In addition, there is a strong desire to revert to your weakness.. it's what's known and it's muscle memory. I struggle with old, still alive me, and the man I want to be everyday. Very tough and time demanding, to go from covert contracts and niceness to out and out power. There's no recipe either - you work, test, observe, conclude, rinse and repeat over and over.

First time I've heard "man up" in an appropriate context.

[–]tybyday 35 points36 points  (21 children)

One of the most basic things had been trying to correct my posture. Going from a hunched over, head forward and down position, to trying to walk with my chest up and shoulders back position has been eye opening. 99% of the time i had shitty posture. Now aiming for 93% (figuratively speaking). It’s borderline maddening trying to correct unconscious behavior. There is no difference between my posture and personality. Equally as fucking difficult to improve.

[–]BluPillMaster-bater 22 points23 points  (17 children)

And this is the fascinating thing.. how differently the redpill impacts us, and the path of recovery we all take.

My posture is good, actually, I'm an arrogant asshole, fully confident, and cheerfully confront intellectual inferiors without hesitation. I'm very muscular, well off, good looking and full of myself...

And yet.. terrified of women, a pussy through and through, a fraud on many levels, powerless, afriad, and if a man where to physically confront me, I could wet my pants.

My "action plan" currently testing is martial arts, further investment/business knowledge, and not being such a bitch to my wife who has only know me as a bluepull fag. aka "the male action plan"

[–]ajbrooks192 32 points33 points  (9 children)

"cheerfully confront my intellectual inferiors" are you sure neckbeards isn't the right place for you? Being arrogant to yourself about your own abilities will never help you. You have steered too far into the skid. There are many different types of intelligence and thinking someone is intellectually inferior to you because you think you know more about a topic than him, when in reality he might be way better at banging broads than you, isn't red pill brother. It's blue pill as Fuck.

[–]BluPillMaster-bater 4 points5 points  (8 children)

No denying, but do note, I did say that I "overstated" this. My point is that, outward, Im full of confidence, but that it's a lie.

Not that I should explain myself, a second time, but wanted to clarify.

[–]Swelfie 20 points21 points  (5 children)

Why aren't you confident? You will never be confident showing some facade and drying to percieve those around you as inferior in order to feel Superior and confident is a trick that you can't fool yourself with for long (nor those around you.) It all points to the fact that you don't like yourself and you are insecure in that knowledge.

Soooooo. Why don't you like yourself? Stop trying to be better than others and shine that light on you. There's 2 categories of things in you to like or not like. First is the stuff you can't do shit about: your height or blemishes or innate mental traits. Fuck those and learn to like them like any quirky movie character can be likeable. The other stuff you can work on. So pick something and work on it. Be proud that you are becoming the person you want to be.

But don't compare that to others. You aren't better or worse. Everyone has their own demons and everyone is pretty good at some shit. It's not a race. Enjoy them for their own character and quit being so goddamn judgemental of yourself and others. It makes you a dick.

[–]BluPillMaster-bater 5 points6 points  (2 children)

thanks dude, thoughtful, smart comment. Saved off to evernote.

[–]monadyne 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I think the martial arts thing is a good idea. I think it will help you internalize some valuable insights.

Please see my comment above about IDGAF. It appears you're placing a lot of emphasis on what others think of you. Who gives a shit about that! It's what you think of you that matters. What can you do that would impress you you magnificent bastard!

[–]deadanxiety77 1 point2 points  (1 child)

innate mental traits.

could you expand on this a bit please?

[–]Swelfie 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I meant things that can't really be "fixed" in the mind. ADHD, Aspie, stutter maybe, stuff like that where you can get better at managing it but your never going to fix it.

[–]ajbrooks192 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I don't think clarifying your thoughts is a sign of weakness. I get what you mean, and I would guess over time that will seep into your internal thoughts about yourself. But the danger you face is being overconfident and being one of those dudes the rest of the world make fun of, like the guys who wear a hat to peacock etc

[–]BluPillMaster-bater 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the response.. I can assure you that being overconfident, if possible, would be years and many accomplishments away...

Thanks again for your thoughts.

[–]tybyday 5 points6 points  (1 child)

God damn you man. I hope you get where your going.

[–]BluPillMaster-bater 7 points8 points  (0 children)

i'm overstating it some.. but yeah dude..after 44 years of an alternate reality. Toss in a few very painful, sadistic experiences with women.. and, well, you find yourself broken. Recovey's a bitch.

I just focus on work, martial arts and my other hobbies. Lot's of faith in the redpill adage "if you build it, they will come" and they being the attitude and not the tits and ass.

[–]ThrowFader 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Fucking bullshit. You not an arrogant asshole you are just a shitty liar. You want to be that guy. You arent.

Dont be terrified of women ffs. Just talk to them. They overgrown children.

Read the sidebar.

[–]BluPillMaster-bater 5 points6 points  (3 children)

LOL. For the record, I've read the side bar, and all of Rollo, and all of illimited, etc. Much of it several times. I have an evernote notebook where I save all good comments and lines.

I can tell you, categorically, that there's a huge chasm between KNOWING something and then FEELING that something. Or between theory and reality.

All I can do is to keep on my "male action plan," keep my head down, keep reading, and keep trying.

I have a lot working against me - a lot.

[–]RPmatrix 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I have a lot working against me - a lot.

"argue for your limitations and they will surely be yours"

it's easier to change than you think bro, and it all starts with a thought. Life is a journey, it's 'destination' is death, so learn to enjoy 'where you are' ... or make 'where you are' enjoyable ... you've still got heaps of time so long as you stay healthy

44 is young mate .. in 15 yrs you'll be agreeing with me! And you can do a hell of a lot in 10yrs even, "the journey of a thousand miles starts with a step"

sounds to me like you need to "find yourself", that guy in you who truly DGAF becoz he doesn't need to, he's "ok".

[–]ThrowFader 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Ok then my apologies. I figured youd be able to handle my words if what you said was true.

In any event, with hard in yourself and your weaknesses man. That's what we are here for. You can do it.

[–]BluPillMaster-bater -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Oh dude, no reason to apologize! I meant "LOL" in that the directness was awesome and it did make me 'lol'.

[–]OkHydrofluorocarbons 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I'm a recovering nice guy and a long time lurker. One of the things TRP helped me was to deal with my shitty posture. I saw this video in the comments. It works, but takes consistency.

[–]tybyday 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I remember seeing this 18 months or so ago when I first became aware of how bad it was. Thank you! Holy shit have wanted to incorporate this into the morning routine.

[–]Ihatemoi 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It is hard to correct ourselves and strive to be as we want to become. I still find myself talking in a slightly condescending tone, I still find myself acting in a validation-seeking way, and sometimes I remember my fucking ex in BP eyes.

I have started meditation in order to become more aware of my thoughts and emotions, it definitely helps.

[–]longjeep2005 10 points11 points  (3 children)

Deadlifts are the best thing you can do to unconsciously improve your posture

[–]RedDeadlift 4 points5 points  (0 children)

So much this. I’m on a computer 8-12 hours a day. Started noticing a hunched over posture about 6 years ago. Started deadlifting 1-2 times a week and it has made a huge difference.

[–]Spets87 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

and swimming

[–]Thehaaps 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Kettlebells help quite a bit too...swings specifically.

[–]monadyne 8 points9 points  (0 children)

It appears you are looking for validation outside yourself, brother. You want women to "be" a certain way, and they're not. They're the way they actually are. Same is true of your so-called friends. TRP has teachings on how to deal with this sort of stuff, and one avenue upon which to approach it is IDGAF.

At this point, you still give a fuck what women say and do, what your friends say and do. While that is happening, you have given them the power to influence your emotions - -and it's doing precisely that. The truth is, it doesn't matter what's in those people's heads. In fact, it not only doesn't matter, it's also none of your business. What is your business is what is in your head, and you are the one responsible for that.

Forget them! What do you think? What are you feeling? Reference only yourself, as captain of your own ship. And take command of it! Thinking depressive or angry thoughts? Then tell yourself, "This is unproductive, and more importantly, not at all fun. Fuck that. I choose to think in other categories than these." And keep rejecting the categories that bum you out until you find ones that ennoble you, that reflect your personal power and authority.

As for what those women say or do, or your so-called friends say or do, the appropriate response is IDGAF. "I don't give a flying fuck what those people say or do. If I'm not interested or having fun, then those people aren't worthy of spending time with me. I'll just spend time with myself, privileged to be listening to the music of my thoughts."

[–]GLADmyNAMEaintDICK 11 points12 points  (1 child)

Perhaps you are saturated with too much superficiality. Women particularly will idealize materialism, power, and status(yet never want to work for it?). I would stay away from people who reflect these feminist ideals, and stay away from the internet(superfluous social media) which is feminine saturated, and prone to drowning great ideas through ad populum, and advocates destructive ideas through the same means.

Don't feel like you're really a horrible person, and don't feel like others are horrible either. We all come from a place of self-interest, yet we have 19 year olds jumping on grenades to save the lives of the rest of their squad(literally cried when I read the story). Some people have legitimate self-interest outside of themselves, some people (men) live beyond the petty scope of self preservation. The weak willed stand for nothing and act as if life is inherently worth it, as if a life of suffering and petulance is acceptable. Cowards will look to extend the time of their lives (as if all time were valuable and worthwhile), while men will look to extend the quality and value. I do not blame children for their petulance, they can not help their ignorance, they have limitations. I apply this perspective with most women, and feminized men. Does this mean accept the immoral behavior of these people? FUCK NO(especially since they are grown and have to potential to transcend such childish and narcissistic thought paradigms) . I do not see them as evil, but certain actions are not to be tolerated. A dog you love may go rabid, but in your humanity, you would still put it down. Not because rabid dogs are evil, but because they don't know better, they lack the faculties to control their actions and reflect upon their impulses. I hope this analogy gives you more compassion towards the fuck heads that wronged you, for they are ignorant and not worth the contempt, much less concern, and also displaying that women are not worth the real respect and empathy man is capable of giving. People ultimately should EARN respect and empathy. Stop giving all people the humanity they probably don't deserve, yet don't believe all humanity is lost.

To get away from the toxic build up of femininity in the male brain, I require the wilderness. If you are in a pit of despair I would find a way to get outdoorsy as possible. Hell i'm sure chopping up some trees would show you the meaning of life.

Most importantly, find love (it is not found in women or money or power or status, though these things will help perpetuate your divine and good will) in life. Find something that you love to do, and can confidently say "fuck you" to anybody who hates on it, those pig ignorant swines can crawl back to suck on their mommas tit, how in these desperate times we are surrounded by gargantuan babies who think they are entitled to divine and righteous judgement.

idk where i'm going with this, just that not all people are shit, and in the mean time, don't let shit people indoctrinate you as one of their own.

[–]tybyday 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That’s more helpful than I can express. Thank you for sharing a different perspective.

[–]ButtRobot 6 points7 points  (3 children)

This is me, as well. Coupled with my depression and PTSD I feel pretty fucking hopeless. I've been going to the gym and spending a few hours coding every day, but it feels pointless. Poor little me, I'm sure the anger phase will end eventually.

[–]tybyday 7 points8 points  (0 children)

It seems clear some days that a new reality has to replace the old one. The new reality has not had very much reward to it yet. The old reality was full of false promises and misinformation. Poor little me as well. Fuck.

[–]sourgraphics 2 points3 points  (1 child)

why don't you set goals? give yourself some projects to make

[–]ButtRobot 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks dude. I have been doing stronglifts program every other day, and a couple hours of coding every day.

[–]RedDeadlift 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Dude you hit the nail on the head, this is exactly how I feel. Lifting, building a business, working hard at the day job, gaming & banging girls, but it still feels like dystopia.

I recently started meditating. It has helped a little with living in the moment. Sticking to it every day is difficult because you don’t see immediate results like with lifting.

[–]monadyne 3 points4 points  (1 child)

External rewards are inherently unsatisfying. It is your relationship with yourself that will prove the most fulfilling and enriching.

[–]RedDeadlift 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You’re absolutely correct. I’m very hard on myself, never good enough. This is something I’m trying to correct.

[–]BJJTallon 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Going through the same thing, we’ll get through this together brahs

[–]TheStumblingWolf 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Life is a game, learn to play it and have fun along the way.

[–]1empatheticapathetic 4 points5 points  (2 children)

It'll pass over time. This 'Nice guy' demonisation is bullshit. Nice guys are nice most of the time but it doesn't matter if everyone else is playing by different rules.

[–]Ihatemoi 1 point2 points  (0 children)

When a friend says ya we should do something soon but never calls, fuck him now

I know where are you coming from, I have just started to behave like this now. One of my friends is a Blue Pilled dumb fuck (two of them actually) he does not call in days, he never answer my messages, calls or anything, so I just say "fuck it", i am no longer looking for him.

The red pill is truly eye opening not just on male-female sexual strategy, but also in relation to your peers and "friends". It is a dark place to be in, when compared to the Disney Fantasy we used to believe in, but I prefer truth to living a fucking lie.

[–]meermaalsgeprobeerd 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're still upset and angry about this new found truth and ashamed for years of being beta. Just give it some time and chill out, learn to like the shallow interaction and make some shallow friends. No one wants to hang out with someone who doesn't like himself. With a bit of self-respect you'll be able to be nice to be around, that's when you'll be able to find some deeper connections.

[–]mishasam89 2 points3 points  (2 children)

And now I feel completely isolated. What now?

dude i think it's like a pendulum.

you used to be on the extreme end of one side, and now the pill has pissed you off enough that you swung radically to the other side.

I think you need time to mellow out. The world isn't good or bad, it just is. You need to make peace with that. You can not change it; unfortunately.

how old are you?

[–]tybyday 0 points1 point  (1 child)

46

[–]sunnygoel007 2 points3 points  (2 children)

You are avoiding the game altogether. Play game, manipulate, be cunning. You know rules properly, use them to win.

[–]tybyday 4 points5 points  (1 child)

The current struggle seems to find what is now winning. It’s all changed.

[–]sunnygoel007 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Read 'the virtue of selfishness' by Ayn rand. Hopefully it will help. I am also a former nice guy, still have many elements of nice guy paradigms to remove. Just keep reading, and trying. It will take time to change your frame.

[–]Mr_KenSpeckle 33 points34 points  (9 children)

I think this trope about nice guys are actually secretly the worst is overstated. We all learn how to behave in life by trial and error. We learn that when we do certain things, we get certain results. When we are young, this works great. If we take our nap, we get a cookie after. If we study hard and behave, we get an A. This message gets etched into your brain and becomes second nature.

It is completely rationale that a nice guy thinks that if he does "the right thing" then he is going to get his reward. His lived experience early in life has confirmed for him this is true. The problem is that as you come into adulthood, the rules change but nobody sends the memo to the nice guy. He's doing the same thing that he "knows" works but it doesn't work in the cut-throat work world or in matters of seduction.

Yes, there are manipulative people who pretend to be nice to get something. But I don't think these are the "nice guys." Those people are sharks who know how the world really is and are simply using a tactic. In contrast, the actual nice guy nice guy is oblivious to how the world really works, genuinely believes that the approach he takes with the world is correct and is bewildered that it doesn't work (like it used to when he was quite young).

The reason that I think this matters is that it actually plays into some destructive attitudes that you guys are striving against in other contexts. Why is the nice guy supposedly evil? Because what he really wants is sex! We are told on this forum that there is nothing wrong with men wanting sex whereas in the wider society, men are often shamed for this. But these nice guys use strategies to try to get sex! Isn't that the whole point of this forum? Sharing information about what works and what doesn't and trying to implement it? That's using strategy to get sex. Yeah, but nice guys aren't honest about it. Yeah, they are. I think truly nice guys absolutely believe what they say and do. The problem is they are misinformed.

Nice guys need a new strategy and they need to be educated about how the world really is but I don't buy that they are actually secretly the most devious of all. I think that notion is destructive to men overall.

[–]1mental_models 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Nice guys generally aren't secretly the worst. They are generally sheep. Naive sheep. And I say that without any malice, or intent to be condescending. It's the same theme as with blue pilled men. They haven't swallowed the red pill. They don't see the system. They flow within the system. Not that there aren't blue pilled assholes. There certainly are, but we're talking about 'nice guys'.

For some people the 'nice guy' herd thing actually works. I know people who've been lucky enough to be born into a life where 'following' reasonably well leads to relative success. Unfortunately even within their successful culture, they fall prey to more Machiavellian counterparts, and are relegated to lesser status within their culture. While less fortunate people would kill to be in their place, it's 'all relative', and the same general red pilled insights apply.

[–]Fr3akShow 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Wow...you nailed it. 100% correct. Former nice guy here. I had no idea how the world really worked. I was raised hard core Christian and was taught not to lust, turn the other cheek, the meek shall inherit the earth, consider others better than yourself, money is the root of evil, pre marital sex is sinful, etc.... basically, be a beta bitch ass chump for Jesus. Now I'm an atheist... everything I thought was true was actually 180 degrees from reality. I was a victim of other people's bad paradigm. RP is helping me to catch up and learn. But I was indoctrinated into nice guy mode. I didn't choose it per se.

[–]MAGAManARFARF 1 point2 points  (0 children)

the rules change

This is fucking profound, Jordan Peterson level shit. I want thinking about his 12 Rules book when I was reading your post, very applicable to what you're saying. We are all Pavlovs dog, learned behaviors through past responses. No one told us to rewire ourselves during puberty. Glad my kids aren't at that point yet, we'll be having that conversation.

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[deleted]

    [–]Mr_KenSpeckle 9 points10 points  (2 children)

    To be manipulative requires intent which requires awareness. Otherwise, it is just cluelessness.

    The proof that nice guys are sincere is that they keep doing the same thing even though it is ineffective. Even if we assume for sake of argument that nice guys are amoral and will do whatever it takes to get the sex that they desire, they keep using "nice guy" tactics, showing that they sincerely believe that that is the way to behave.

    The whole nice guys are actually the worst line of argument really boils down to the assertion "they act nice, but really they just want sex!" Nothing wrong with that. And there is nothing surprising about the fact that they use the tactics that they (mistakenly but sincerely) believe will give them the result that they seek.

    I'm not arguing nice guys are fine and don't need to change and you should leave them alone. They do need to change if they want the quality of their lives to change. My argument is I have a problem with this whole nice guys are the worst line of argument because when you peel back the layers, it is really kind of a shaming of men's desires that one would expect from an SJW.

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    There isn't any level of logical process in play like there is with real 'manipulation', that isn't the same as saying that his behavior isn't manipulative in nature, because it is. My gripe with the quoted section is that the 'nice guy' is still a fraud, he doesn't really want to do the things he does in most cases but he does them anyway because of the covert contract

    To be manipulative is part of one's "instinctual behavioral programs", and doesn't require awareness.

    Of course, self-aware manipulation is a fraction of the manipulation that takes place, because society tells people they are moral and so while they do things to pursue their goals they rationalize/hide their real motivators from themselves to have a good self-opinion (think of females. They are all manipulative nearly all the time, but never know it "awarely").

    So you have

    1) Conscious manipulativeness (5-10% of males, 0-1% of females) 2) Unconcious manipulativeness (most of us, most of the time) 3) Real niceness.

    2) and 3) are both real, and OP is wrong to deny 3). But maybe 3) is very rare compared with 2).

    [–]ozenmacher 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I argue that the "nice guys are really actually not nice" is rooted in real behavior that will eventually manifest itself with time in the BluePill beta. I liken BP rage (aka the "Mr nice guy finally snapping) to a women who hits the wall and stops getting attention. Eventually they just lose it, turn into man hating feminists, and blame the patriarchy. For men, after being brain-washed that acting like a women, being "emotional" and treating women like equals actually gets them nowhere but failure, they realized they sacrificed so much for a lie. And guess what, some men lose it. They feel emasculated and worthless, and they turn to hate and anger to the world (and mostly women) for not getting what they feel they "deserve" for a life of sacrifice spent pedastalizing women. Some of the most violent and untrustworthy people are those BP men looking to get revenge (see Elliot Rodgers for a good example).

    [–]Endorsed ContributorThotwrecker 7 points8 points  (3 children)

    Many nice guys are actually nice in the sense of they want her to be happy, they want everyone to win, they want others interests to be fulfilled first, and they can't feel comfortable if there's tension of awkwardness or impoliteness. The trope of nice guys not really being nice is overstated in my opinion - there are a lot of nice guys who are genuinely nice people, and they will help you out and they do care about others. They are progressive, enlightened snowflakes who want to make the world a better place, and they deeply believe that being nice to women will get them the ultimate prize in the end after women have "grown up" and learned to value nice behavior.

    I think somewhere along the lines of the nice guy meme, we've forgotten that there's nice guys and "nice guys" and surprise surprise, neither type does well in the dating area. Because it doesn't really matter whether you are genuinely nice or nice because you subconsciously believe it will entitle you to stuff. All that matters is what value you put forward, and in both cases, generally both types of nice and "nice" guys don't have value.

    This is where reddit advice breaks down, it's generally "don't be a "nice guy tm" be genuinely nice." But genuinely nice ain't doing shit for you either. Dating is not win-win generally, it's a battle with a victor, and you win if she gives up the pussy without demanding commitment out of you. Most pursuits are not win-win except pursuits on an all-male team with aligned objectives, and very limited hidden agendas. AKA your idyllic non-existent work place, or a mythical startup where everyone has equal equity shares. It's probably actually better to be a manipulative nice guy than a genuinely nice guy, because you'll get more sex out of being manipulative than by being genuinely altruistic.

    [–]askmrcia 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    I think somewhere along the lines of the nice guy meme, we've forgotten that there's nice guys and "nice guys" and surprise surprise, neither type does well in the dating area.

    What I quoted and the rest of your comment is well said. Honestly could not have said it any better.

    This is where reddit advice breaks down, it's generally "don't be a "nice guy tm" be genuinely nice." But genuinely nice ain't doing shit for you either.

    Agree 100%. I'll just add that the whole "nice guy" meme got taken out of context especially on the internet. Don't know exactly how it started, but I truly believe that there was guys out there with their shit together, NOT a pushover or a simp, NOT UGLY and still struggling with women when it comes to dating, but they look over and see some drug dealer pulling the hottest tale in the city.

    I believe when these guys were voicing their opinions online, the women came back stating (most likely the ones going from one shitty relationship to the next) blaming these guys saying "either guys are too weak or assholes", so they settled for the "assholes" (we know what qualities these guys really had though).

    Personally I think a lot of guys struggle with women because they don't know how to move past LMR or ASD. Least that's why I struggled in my early years.

    I guess where I'm getting at is that women claim and basically make fun of nice guys to make themselves feel better for picking shitty men for relationships, thus the whole "nice guy" meme was born.

    [–]Oscar_Cc 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Good comment. It is also quite rich on the part of women to get angry over "manipulative" and "deceitful" nice guys, when they themselves are the masters of deception.

    I can even agree with them that no woman "owes" you sex, but considering how widespread the hook-up culture is their indignation rings kinda hollow. Don't open your legs for a guy that showers you with attention and gifts if you don't want, but don't act as if he was a wannabe rapist or something. Sex is no longer that big of a deal.

    [–]FaerieDrake 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    In my experience, the reason nice guys often don't do well in the dating arena is because they put more value in the approval of others, than in themselves, which in turn makes them seem needy.

    [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    Just look at how children respond to a strong father. The fathers who are adored are the ones who clearly love their children but tolerate precisely zero bullshit.

    [–]Yabadababoobs 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Nice guys have no frame, they continually adopt somebody else's in the hope that this will get them what they want.

    I've seen that so many times and not only from weak neck beards either, there was a dude in college who was at least 1.9m and well built, I knew he managed pull one night stands just having that body but he was obsessed with that one girl who saw him as a vaginaless girl friend and I was utterly shocked when I heard him whining about it. Spent a couple of days with them to realize why. Holy fucking shit, his personality became a playdough around her, he took her interests, took on the style she likes and he fucking took how she writes on blank pages rather than lined ones, that moment I realized such a nice guy he was, later even heard her tell him act like a man and be plain mean in general. If he wasn't that built and could easily fuck my shit up I would definetely go for that girl though.

    [–]DeepCrimsonPill 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Uh, no, actual kindness comes from actual kindness. Where in any dictionary does it add power into the definition?

    Weak guys can be kind. Strong guys can be kind. Women generally prefer strong guys that are kind...and they also prefer strong men who aren't kind.

    This warping of definitions make me believe people are desperately rationalizing away women's extreme hypergamy - that essentially the only thing they really care about in partners is power. Kindness + power, indifference + power, cruelty + power...if you let women have free reign over the sexual marketplace, everything other than dominance, even our traditional virtues, is essentially an afterthought.

    [–]AlexCarlin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    If I could upvote this more I would. Being a nice guy isnt having a weak frame, its having the belief that entering someone else’s frame entitles you to something in return.

    [–]mattizie 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Actual kindness comes from a place of strength and power, an absolute ability to destroy, but choosing not to.

    Amen, mate. Fucking spot on.

    [–]1redhawkes 92 points93 points  (8 children)

    A nice guy treats every women as a virgin princess. That's his frame. That's how you want them to be, so that's how they are to you. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

    If you put someone on a pedestal, they have no choice but to look down at you.

    [–]PhaedrusHunt 15 points16 points  (1 child)

    If you put someone on a pedestal, they have no choice but to look down at you.

    Paraphrasing Patrice O'Neal I told my girl last night in have to hold her in at least ten percent contempt just so I can fuck her right.

    She said please never put me on a pedestal. I said Don't worry bitch, I won't.

    [–]1redhawkes 42 points43 points  (0 children)

    Bitches don’t want to win, they want a winner. -Patrice O’Neal

    [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (5 children)

    They could pedestal you too — weren't they nature-programmed machines designed to kick away the weak and revere the strong (but yeah, they are, so..).

    [–]1redhawkes 7 points8 points  (4 children)

    hint, be the leader, not the follower (the prize mentality)

    [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (3 children)

    I know, but even being the leader is a "job", and sometimes you wish you could be with a (female) peer. Or maybe it's just me.

    A leader is essentially alone — alone with his pleasure to be the leader, but that's just that (after a while, it may get boring).

    [–]1redhawkes 7 points8 points  (0 children)

    Fix your codependency, get out and meet people. It sounds like your comment is coming from a place of scarcity.

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    A leader isn't alone because a leader has followers. I can go out and do a lot of fun shit by myself, but bringing a woman along for the adventure just makes it better. Your peers are your close friends, my best friend has been a part of my life for 15 years. We kinda take turns being the leader, we have both introduced each other to a lot of fun places and people, picked up a lot of the same hobbies, etc. Sometimes we negotiate or compete with each other. You can't have the same kind of relationship with a woman that you can with a close guy friend, each one fills their own separate role in your social life.

    [–]zmazo98 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    I wouldn't say that necessarily, some peoples pleasure derived from being a leader is most definitely related to achieving goals or accomplishing challenges and helping lead a group or even just one peer to the same achievement. Therefore it wouldn't get boring nor would it be a job. For most charismatic people, the opportunity to help themselves and help others help themselves is like a hobby, or for some an addiction. When you think about it being a leader is a lot of what makes up the alpha mentality. Its about being charismatic so you can get what you want, but being a gentleman and not abusing the skill.

    [–]oldslut 20 points21 points  (0 children)

    whenever i hear a buddy say, i can't do that cause i'm a nice guy, i want to throw up and slap him upside the head. of course, i don't go spouting off about TRP... no chick wants a nice guy, no matter what they say.

    [–]Conceited-Monkey 13 points14 points  (1 child)

    A "nice guy" is the label assigned to a guy that thinks sexual relationships with women are transactional. He operates under the assumption that after rendering enough good deeds, kind words, or whatever, the woman will select him as a sexual partner. The guy's behaviour is "nice" but it is insincere and manipulative.

    There is nothing inherently wrong with being nice to people, but if it is a manipulative strategy it is not only dishonest but it also rarely works......

    [–]TheDevilsAdvokaat[🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    This is nicely put I think. And accurate too.

    And I think over time a lot of women learn to distrust "nice guys" for exactly this reason; it's often dishonest or unreal.

    [–]unplug9000 12 points13 points  (1 child)

    The problem with nice guys is they give a shit what everyone thinks of them. Oh goodness, I wouldn't want anyone to think ill of me. Allow me to bend over and get royally fucked by everyone some more while I puke over everyone and everything at the same time. Oh, yes, that's better, I'm such a nice guy now. Whatever.

    [–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

    Women are naturally attracted to dark-triad men anyway, those are the men that can provide the most resources and have the highest social value.

    These nice guys are driving themselves insane by putting up a fake facade for no benefit.

    The only way for other people to like you is for you to like yourself.

    [–]1RPAlternate42 10 points11 points  (0 children)

    How to be a NiceGuyTM

    1. Be dishonest with others about what you want.
    2. Be dishonest with yourself about who you are.
    3. Become angry with others when #1 and #2 doesn't work.
    4. Blame others when for #3
    5. Start from #1

    [–]TunedtoPerfection 20 points21 points  (0 children)

    "Nice Guys" always have an ulterior motive, so they are social draining to talk to and be around. They are so fearful of rejection and so round about in how they approach any problem that eventually everyone realizes it's just not worth it to be around them.

    [–]neverquitman 8 points9 points  (0 children)

    Nice guys occur because they think that another chance will happen. If they realise it may be their one shot, they would act differently. Or fear, from underexposure+no one taught them anything, they just went with the flow, what they read or someone told them.

    [–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (5 children)

    The real problem with nice guys is that they are too easy to manipulate, and often they were raised like this. It's hard to deprogram this supplicating behavior.

    [–]CSGOCooper 11 points12 points  (1 child)

    They're not even nice, they remind me of animals who act submissive and show their bellies to a being much more powerful and in control than them.

    Its their survival instinct, hoping that almighty being might reward them some day.

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    The difference is that submissive animals are naturally submissive, with niceGuys not necessarily so.

    [–]ThrowFader 5 points6 points  (2 children)

    Use it to your advantage.

    Form a harem of women, and a legion of beta followers.

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    I'd rather help them.

    [–]modTheRedPike 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Weird. I approved this but it won't show up in the sub. I guess I'll have to use this account to comment.

    Be careful. They are worse that pitbulls when it comes to biting the hand that feeds them. Way worse.

    [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

    Idgaf about women anymore. I speak my mind like i never have, it started 6 years ago but lately i realized in the middle of a date that I was completely myself 100%. I started smiling ear to ear and she asked, what you smiling at to what i replied 'wouldn't you like to know' with a wink. Ever since that day i credit the shift with /nofap of course but it was in that date that i realized the true shift. I'm just myself and idgaf

    [–]U-94 7 points8 points  (0 children)

    Being nice is the same as being well behaved so Santa Claus will bring you presents. Then you wake up Christmas morning and you didn't get what you asked for. Because there are no A + B = C easy life calculations.

    [–]1mental_models 6 points7 points  (1 child)

    a word about 'empathy'

    Empathy is an intimate, and important, source of information.

    People are generally state-dependant animals. Knowing how someone feels is very important.

    Empathy, should not however, trigger irrational decision making on your part.

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    People are generally state-dependant animals. Knowing how someone feels is very important.

    How in the blazes can one use them for one's purposes, without empathy. That's why it's so manically advertised in today's mainline culture.

    [–]ofcrow 6 points7 points  (1 child)

    There is a great explanation of the Jung’s concept of shadow by Alan Watts. It basically constitutes all the repressed parts of your personality. Discovering my dark side was pretty frightening until I started looking at it as a friendly part of me. It can have great benefits, it’s raw creative force. No one can be complete and whole without accepting his dark side. Ying and yang.

    Here is the video btw, highly recommend it:

    https://youtu.be/DBMyeB7MyZg

    [–]1roadmaptonowhere[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Outstanding lecture.

    Everyone should read "The Wisdom of Insecurity" at least once.

    [–]TheHustlingWizard 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    I'm a nice guy who gets pussy and succeeds in business. Won't get much success being a prick in life. Be nice to women, but don't give a fuck about them. That's the fine line.

    [–]Eye4Chaos 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    "A nice guy treats every women as a virgin princess. That's his frame. That's how you want them to be, so that's how they are to you. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. "

    GOLD.

    [–]Swan_in_a_Cage 7 points8 points  (1 child)

    A saint is not nice. A saint is silent and detached from pleasure and pain. His words cut ignorance with the sword of knowledge. He is a warrior of the truth.

    [–]ThrowFader 13 points14 points  (0 children)

    I think you meant "real nigga"

    [–]Ananonguy88 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    I'm a nice guy at heart. I simply like being nice. I think that nice + abundance mentality is something different than BP nice guy. I had my "asshole" phase but that was pretty much my side of my anger phase and I managed to sleep with some hot chicks indeed back then. Now that I am chill and I'm able to like women again as they are, I really keep this nice and calm attitude sharing this positive vibe with people around.

    [–]OgMagicMatthew 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Also stop thinking you're a dark twisted and evil person. I don't think that wanting to better myself, make money, fuck women, etc. makes me an evil person. I can do all of these things, and still work to make the world a better place for everyone. If I "manipulate" people (Dont like the word do to negative connotation, perfer the phrase "Lead people to..."), I usually do so because I believe that I can better them and myself by manipulating.

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    I got the heart of a saint and the mind of a demon. Fuck you

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    This thread helped me to realize some stuff about myself that I've never realized before.

    Thank you.

    [–]Throwaway_5252 12 points13 points  (4 children)

    If I could offer a counter perspective, I did the nice guy thing for a while. It wasn’t because I expected sex in return for being nice but rather I care from a family background where domestic violence was present and everyone was always screaming and being pretty callous all the time. I was nice because in my idealistic mindset, I could escape the toxic relationship that I had to witness my mother and father had if I was a “nice guy” who found an equally “nice and quiet submissive girl”

    Now I’m less idealistic and I normally just keep to myself. When I’m “gaming” chicks I’m just talking to them. I’m not using “asshole game” Insrill consider myself a nice guy. I don’t make conceited or degrading remarks towards anyone or trying to publicly hulimate them. I’m friendly with everyone so long as they don’t start over stepping boundaries. After that I become assertive. And if it has to go beyond that you’ll wish you’ll never laid eyes on me.

    I’m a nice, polite guy. Until I need to not be one. Then you’re dealing with a cold blooded sociopath.

    [–]wayneinthegame 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    The more your shadow becomes detached from your personality, the more control it will have over you when aroused.

    [–]maqant 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    I litteraly read this while listening to the star wars emperor's theme, it was on point

    [–]metanastis 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    hey i watch peterson's videos too. they are really interesting.

    [–]_nein_danke 1 point2 points  (3 children)

    The problem with this whole approach (don't consider myself a nice guy but also im trying to become a lot more confident with women) is getting some actionable advice for this? in the context of a one on one conversation how would this work? whats an easy way to show you're not a 'nice guy'?

    [–]BornShook 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Rarely apologise for anything, and dont go out of your way to be PC when talkinh with her

    [–]d0lphinsex 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Isolation, conversation about sex, escalation.

    [–]WolfofAnarchy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Where did Jordan Peterson say to turn into a civilized monster?am interested in that

    [–]mickey__ 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    Ahh, im that guy, any resource for getting deeper into this problem? except nmmng

    [–]1roadmaptonowhere[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Just research Carl Jung's concept of shadow. However, keep in mind that you're your best resource. Find out your deepest repressed feelings and redirect them toward something greater. Learn how to fight. Art is a great form of expression, explore it.

    Most importantly, and the best tip I can give you is speak your mind out. You know those times when you really wanted to say something, but you didn't cause you didn't want to offend or hurt anybody? Say "fuck it" and go for it. Don't be afraid of confrontation, don't be afraid to lose people - trust me, they will love you for it. Extreme honesty, willingness to walk away, confidence to put your ego on the line, respect for other people's opinions and points of view, but being completely immune and indifferent to them - except what you consider constructive criticism.

    [–]HopHopHop08 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    What is best of all is utterly unreachable but that doesn't mean that you can't get better or you shouldn't. Even if it's for expense of one's life. I know i sound too idealistic but i think it's still much nobler than anything else.

    Besides, i think most of the "nice guys" are deeply aware of their dark side thus they are showing extensive effort to tame it.

    [–]ramfex21 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Well written post! Great advice for the man still stuck in the delusion

    [–]AmericasIronFist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    What does it mean if i see myself as an asshole and a piece of shit?

    [–]Antzos 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    And what about compassion? I feel I generally care for people's well being. Not above my family's or my own of course but I still care. I don't think you have to shit on people to succeed but you should always be ready to.

    [–]DouglasPR 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Compassion is a genuine quality, where you expect nothing in return. "nice guys" can fake compassion or other qualities expecting validation, sex, attention, etc... thats the covert contract the book No more nice guy talks about in lenght

    [–]sourmonkeytroll 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Compassion and mercy are only respected when exercised from a place of power. It is only in this context that these virtues can be seen as what they are , rather than weakness.

    [–]Mr-Ed209 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    The criticism of 'niceness' is over played. Was it enlightening to read 'no more mr nice guy' and the views on how men who've been taught to be ashamed of their sexuality will placate themselves to women?.. absolutely. But that doesn't neglect the fact that someone else is often more to blame in all those nice guy failed romances between handsome beta boy and a girl who just can't quite make up her mind.

    Then you read TRP and you realize just how dark female sexuality can really be. How much they crave dominance and leadership and you realise why 'nice guy' behavior never got you close to sealing the deal.

    [–]narazz 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    As a kid if i wasnt nice i'd be beaten. i hate asshole and being talked down to like my dad did. so it's more about a respect thing to treat others how i like to be treated. even so most things i dont really go out of my way to help people. say im nice while being more neutral and keeping to myself on most things. fuck with me though it's on people actually get surprised when i say no to em.

    [–]MFIR 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Beyond Good and Evil - Friedrich Nietzsche

    is a great read and goes deep into this subject.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Every prophecy is a self fulfilling prophecy. So don't assume anything boys, create your own reality. Make shit happen. You'll be amazed at how many obstacles move out of the way when you are bold as fuck. And the best part is that any mistakes you make through boldness, can easily be corrected by greater boldness. Trump is good at this. Law 28: Enter action with boldness

    [–]casemodz 1 point2 points  (17 children)

    so they know what kind of girl to be

    Sounds like women are just fake as fuck...sigh

    [–]scamper_22 8 points9 points  (4 children)

    I read a great quote once on loyalty.

    Men are loyal to ideas/hierarchies/institutions/ways of life. Women are loyal (better word is devoted to people).

    The best way I see it now, is if someone asked me what color I like to paint my walls. I mean, I've got half assed preferences and red lines, but the truth is, it's not something I feel strongly about.

    Most women really see many 'important' things the way I'd choose to pick the color of the wall. They really don't feel that strongly about it.

    Which is the reason you need to act with authority, so they know how to act around you to maximize the relationship. To maximize... what they do care about... the relationship with you.

    When you sit around trying to negotiate or talk it out as I did in the past, it's actually a disservice 90% of the time because imagine her nagging you on the color of the wall for hours on end.

    Remember again... women are devoted to people. So tread carefully on relationships with people. But if it comes to other things, lead with authority.

    [–]warsie 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    Men are loyal to ideas/hierarchies/institutions/ways of life. Women are loyal (better word is devoted to people).

    It's interesting as a report on terrorists mentioned that. The male terrorists joined because they were ideologically motivated and believed in the cause. The female terrorists joined because of the social connections of their boyfriend or father joining the cause, or their families were hurt/killed in some way. This is mentioned in The Mind of a Terrorist if I remember rightly

    [–]casemodz 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    That didn't help me at all.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    They are devoted to authority, and rank, not to "people".

    [–]1roadmaptonowhere[S] 8 points9 points  (11 children)

    They are not. It's just female nature.

    [–]casemodz 4 points5 points  (10 children)

    But isn't that kinda fake behavior? Like acting nice when you want something from someone?

    [–]qx4758 7 points8 points  (2 children)

    Read Robert Green. Everyone manipulates. Everyone has an angle. Everyone behaves in ways that they hope will produce a certain response from others.

    Saying you don't have an angle is an angle unto itself, since you hope that people will deal with you a certain way based on your assertion of angle-lessness.

    The way it applies here is that nice guys learned that trying to be a good boy and being submissive to women was the best way to get their needs met as kids. Why? Fucked up family. The usual mode is that the father is abusive/absent/emotionally unavailable to his family, particularly the mother, and so she turns to her son to get her emotional needs met. This creates a number of toxic paradigms for the son:

    • He does his best to be a good boy so his mother has less crap to deal with.
    • Because the mother will probably have selected abusive/absent/unavailable men like her husband/son's dad in the past, she'll have concluded that all men are like him, and so the son learns that women expect their sexual partners to be shitheads.
    • The mother and father's sexual relationship will be fucked up somehow. Most commonly either coercive ("close your eyes, open your legs, think of England") or just nonexistent, or nearly so. The son will learn about this either through complaints by one or the other, or by arguments that spill out of the bedroom. So the son learns that men's sexual attention is annoying and burdensome to women at best. For added fun, this belief is reinforced by what he sees in mass media.
    • He learns that he should wait to ask for things until his parents are in a good mood. If he asks when they're in a bad mood, they may react badly. So he'll do whatever he can to get them into a good mood so he can ask, and even then, it's nerve-wracking.
    • Because he has no real control over his parents' mood, he eventually learns to get what he needs by subterfuge and manipulation.
    • And he's ashamed of doing so, because he knows that those things aren't what a good boy does, and if he's caught, then his parents are likely to react badly. So he associates getting his needs met with shame and fear.
    • And finally (for this list, anyway, there are many other ways in which this dynamic fucks boys up), he learns to associate having needs at all with being bad.

    The product is a young man who who believes that having needs is bad, meeting those needs is shameful and should be hidden from view, and whose primary understanding of male-female interaction is that women don't like men and don't like sex, and that the best way to get into their good graces is to do everything they ask and never talk about sex.

    There are many different variations on this theme. My story is pretty close to this, except I sucked at being a good boy because I had horrible ADHD and was constantly getting in trouble at school for low performance, and at home for being forgetful and easily bored.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–]qx4758 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Asking for a friend, right? :P

      Male companionship is the best place to start. And I don't mean man-bun, soy-latte, "woke" men. I mean men. Men who are comfortable with being men.

      [–]1roadmaptonowhere[S] 3 points4 points  (3 children)

      A simple way to think about it - men are built for power, women for seduction. Women want to submit to the right guy. They will use their seductive nature to get what they want from all the other men. It's like the female operating system. Here we talk about amused mastery. You get what they are trying to do and you find it amusing. It's the story of the scorpion and the frog trying to cross the river.

      [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      They will still be manipulative and deceptive even with the Alpha of Alphas — come on.

      Sure, they'll be less like that, but they'll still be.

      [–]warsie 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      That is still "fake as fuck" even if as you say this is a natural thing.

      [–]1mental_models 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      men are kind of damned to naturally be wired for reciprocity. In general, it's a blessing, a beneficial heuristic, but not when it comes to postmodern dating.

      women are blessed to be naturally able to improve position and simultaneously fully believe an emotional justification for that improvement even if the action happened to be exploitative, disloyal, or hypocritical.

      Neither is great, and both are heuristics, rather than rational behavior based on insight and critical thinking. As men, once we swallow the red pill we have additional responsibility.

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      women are blessed to be naturally able to improve position and simultaneously fully believe an emotional justification for that improvement even if the action happened to be exploitative, disloyal, or hypocritical.

      You mean even though not "even if", lol. Because the action IS exploitative, disloyal, hypocritical, (egocentric, narcissistic, ...)

      [–]scamper_22 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

      The problem with saying it is 'fake' behavior is that immediate connotation behind it. I don't know if there's a correct psychological term of it, but I'll give the counter example.

      Masculinity and sexuality exist. It is who we are. There are problems with it when it goes too far (rape, fighting...). But that's not the majority of men or the majority of the time. Most masculine and sexual behavior is just regular decent life.

      What feminists have done is tried to take behavior and actually shame it, 'just by identifying it'. It's 'rape culture'. You're 'sexualizing me'.

      It's had disastrous effects on masculinity today.

      You're doing the same thing by trying to shame 'regular/all nice' behavior by just saying fake and wanting something. Yes, 'nice' and 'feminine' behavior can be taken to extremes in terms of manipulation, lying, gold digging... But regular feminine or nice behavior should not be shamed just because it exists.

      A better question is often to ask... how would you rather someone act? We all have needs and wants. How would you rather a person act to get what they want? You want to be dealing with mr. alpha aggression 24/7? Even from a 5'2 pretty girl? Or maybe you think they should just be assertive ... well that might be some ideal state of a human being, but most guys aren't even at that ideal level of assertive/calm/stoic/.... I damn well know I'm not.

      So yes it is fake behavior, if you really must call it that. But you know... me scoping out a woman's ass is sexualizing her as an object... if you really must call it that.

      But don't think for a second, the behavior is bad/should be shamed just by identifying it. There are cases of excess of course.

      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

      [deleted]

      [–]kiwi_like_me 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      The other thing is that anyone who works in an office environment has the experience of seeing a hell of a lot of people being nice all the time.

      If you think you're being nice, it's either below average (not nice), average (normal) or too nice (creepy). No matter which one it is you're not going to get credit for it.

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