761
762

Red Pill Theory“Stages of Manipulation”; an excerpt from the book “Practical Female Psychology” (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by Endorsed ContributorAuvergnat

“Practical Female Psychology: For the Practical Man” by Joseph South, David Clare and Franco is a book I am currently reading after seeing it mentioned in the comments of a recent post on The Rational Male.

Put simply, it’s the best book on red pill theory I have ever read. Right up there with Rollo’s books. It was published in 2008, so was written by contemporaries of our esteemed elders Pook, Roissy, Roosh, Rollo and others.

It is so good, and yet, in one year of red pill awareness, I had never seen it mentioned or suggested anywhere. So I thought it’d deserve its own post, rather than me casually mentioning it in a comment next time someone asks for book suggestions.

I so strongly encourage you to get it and read it that I’ll allow myself to reprint here a particularly good chapter to motivate you. Hopefully it's ok to do so and will bring some traffic to the authors' amazon page. Before I’d do so, I’d provide a quick lesson learned:

  • Frequent other red pill websites than this sub, and particularly the comments sections of blogs. There are some gems out there.

PS: Feel free to debate and oppose the ideas but remember the following are not my writings – just reprinting.


Chapter 11 Stages of Manipulation

When it comes to marriage, one man is as good as the next. And even the least accomodating is less trouble than a mother. - Marquise de Merteuil in "Les Liaisons Dangereuses," by Choderlos De Laclos.

We believe that manipulation is an instinctual behavior deeply rooted within female biology. Manipulation is also a learned behavior, due to one's need for survival. From a biological point of view there is not too much of a difference between biologically-rooted and learned behavior. In fact, from the point of view of both modern neurobiology and evolutionary psychology, behaviors repeated and learned over time become deeply rooted in the neurological patterns within the brain, to the point where the behavior becomes largely unconscious. As individuals are prone to choose behaviors which support survival, manipulation has certainly been selected as a desirable survival skill.

Manipulation can be defined as the attempt to influence another person's mind to achieve a certain outcome. Manipulation is very often seen as a negative thing. We, however, are not judgmental about manipulation, and actually consider it a positive feature, which has been designed to keep life continuing on this planet.

In order to best manage relationships with women, the Modern Man should understand that there are various stages of manipulation that a woman will go through during the course of a relationship with a man.

On the biological level, the female of our species is programmed to:

  1. Elicit a strong sexual attraction in one or more strong males.

  2. Feel a strong sexual attraction for such males.

  3. Become impregnated by her choice of male.

  4. Have a male to provide materially for both her and her infant child.

  5. Afterwards, she will subconsciously tend to operate in such a way so as to have her sexual attraction for that male decrease.

  6. Wash, rinse, repeat: she will tend to have more sexual intercourse and more children with other strong males.

We call this process betaization, where the strong, alpha male is rendered beta — which means "secondary" or "subservient" — within the relationship, over a period of time. Quite often, this process occurs gradually and almost imperceptibly to both parties.

Manipulation is widely used by women to achieve:

  • Safety and comfort for her and her children, with their survival being the primary purpose.

  • To thereby influence the man's mind in such a way that he will feel compelled to protect her and her children, especially before pregnancy, during the pregnancy and throughout the children's early developmental years.

Female manipulation can be either creative or destructive, depending on the desired outcome. From the point of view of the man, female manipulation can be considered "good" when it supports life and the man's interests and "bad" when it destroys life and/or damages the man's interests.

Succinctly, the more manipulation is used by a woman, the more it becomes natural and unconscious to her. It is like learning to play a musical instrument: at first it is difficult and one needs to pay conscious attention to each note being played, Then, as mastery is gradually achieved, manipulation becomes more and more unconscious.

Behaviors are slow to develop and also slow to be unlearned. In the modem woman of the industrialized countries, the way instincts are expressed has changed slightly with time, due to less-demanding survival conditions. However, the influence of the female's primal instincts on her behavior remains evident.

It is important for you to learn to recognize manipulation. In fact — as we discussed in Chapter 4 "Female Basic Conflict" — for a woman's sexuality to be satisfied, it is important that her manipulation attempts against her man not be too effective. You must learn to observe female behavior and give the right responses, with the goal of making her happy on the emotional level, as opposed to responding to manipulation attempts on a logical level.

Learning to respond appropriately requires knowing the various stages of female manipulation.

Stages of Female Manipulation

A woman's attempt to own you mentally will follow certain incremental stages, which predictably occur with mathematical precision. We will now discuss each of the following stages in detail:

  • Testing the Male

  • Seeking Communication

  • Putting him to Work

  • Evolutionary Selfishness

  • Self-Determination

Depending on the woman's self-esteem, there are big differences in the way these stages will play themselves out. If a woman has high self-esteem (HSE), she will test you and manipulate you in a totally different way than a woman who has low self-esteem (LSE).

Testing the Male

"Let me be a little bitch to him.” A woman knows on the instinctual level — and also on the rational level — that a man can impregnate a large number of women without too many consequences. In our modem age of mandatory child support, this is not always true in practical terms, but biologically it remains the case that the female has a much higher risk and burden when it comes to pregnancy than the man does.

A woman also knows that a weak male will not be able to protect her or her children in any way. Imagine as a man how your thoughts about survival would be different if every time you made love to a woman you faced the possibility of carrying a baby in your belly for the next nine months, followed by the primary responsibility of taking care of the baby for many years to come. Imagine how you would feel if you knew that your partner could leave you at any time and impregnate other women and/or leave for war or for hunting. Get the picture? You would become much more selective in your choices of who to mate with. From this biological reality stems the deep need that a woman has to test the male for his physical and leadership qualities. In our modern society, the need to test for physical qualities and financial stability has become less important than the need for qualities such as leadership, intellectual capacity, and strength of personality; but that would be quickly reversed in the case of war.

One thing is for sure: a woman in this stage will test the male for his skill of being a hunter. This will happen whether you are skilled in hunting animals in the grassy field or company shares in the business field; you can be sure that at the first stage of manipulation a woman will test you.

A woman will always test a male who she is sexually attracted to. For a psychologically healthy woman, survival and sexual desire must always harmonize with each other. A woman who tests men only for survival benefits — such as a man's ability to provide — is denying her sexuality. A woman who tests men only for their sexual appeal, is either planning to live her life without men, or is being self-destructive.

Seeking Communication

"Open up to me, please."

Once a woman has tested the male, and is relatively sure that he is strong enough to serve her purposes, her concern begins to revolve around making the man serve her exclusively. Many men who are relatively strong and pass the tests of the first stage, fail to understand the meaning of this second stage. This stage is extremely difficult for the average man to detect. It is instinctually and often unconsciously masked by the woman as a purely innocent attempt to "communicate" with the male.

It is a feature of the feminine psyche to appreciate communication above all else, but from an evolutionary point of view what the female of our species is really doing at this stage is using language to befuddle her partner, which will hopefully cause him to serve her and her purposes.

This stage is extremely important to the success or failure of couple relationships. Couple therapy fails so frequently because it tends to disregard the real, evolutionary meaning of this stage. A very common pitfall for couples is when the woman starts to feel that the man is displaying an inability or unwillingness to "communicate properly" with the woman. Modern couples therapy almost invariably places the blame for this supposed lack of communication squarely on the man's shoulders.

In the first stage, the woman has screened out the weaker males; the man was specifically chosen by the woman for a relationship. In this second stage, the woman acts as if she is seeking deeper communication with the man. A strong man will start to sense that an attempt is being made to weaken him, and he will then usually react with certain predictable behavior patterns. He may get angry or he may withdraw. Arguments that seem to the man to be based on nothing logical at all will often occur at this stage.

Putting Him to Work

"Honey, please take out the trash and wash the cat, and please hurry!" When and if a man opens himself emotionally up to a woman — in the sense of what we discussed in the preceding subsection — from that point onwards the woman effectively owns the frame of the relationship. Now, the active destruction of attraction can begin in earnest, as she starts her attempts to take over aspects of the man's life which directly affect his material interests. For example, purchase decisions can now be made "jointly" which, in the cool light of rational analysis, really are the result of the woman's manipulation attempts and the man's desire to maintain some semblance of peace in the household.

Female Evolutionary Selfishness

"I am never satisfied no matter what you do or how hard you try." This stage begins once the woman has succeeded in having her formerly-strong male open up to her emotionally. In this stage, any communication with her male partner is only for the purpose of deriving something useful for her and her children. At this stage she will exhibit a total disregard for the man's psychological and material interests. The man will be put under the power of a strong and constant psychological double bind, along the lines of:

"If you don't open up to me I am not satisfied. You don't communicate with me."

simultaneous with

"As soon as you open up to me I will use the information you provide in a totally selfish way for my own needs."

Either way, the end result for the male is usually guilt, shame, or confusion, finally giving way to resentment and anger. Assuming he takes her seriously — and most men do — he will get caught into an ongoing psychological mechanism, which will make him weaker and weaker, with terribly-negative results for her sexual attraction towards him. At this stage, he is no longer the strong male she admired at the beginning.

Female Self-Determination

"I am full grown, independent woman now." Of course, the female in the relationship never was a "little girl." In the self-determination stage, however, another double bind — even more powerful than the preceding — will be thrown at the male. Once he starts to seek out the emotional communication that she had been asking for all along, she will begin to express sentiments such as she is feeling oppressed, or that the man is boring, or that he is too nice, or that he doesn't understand her, and so on. Again, the usual effect of such feminine expressions on the man is bewilderment, shame and guilt.

If at this point the man decides that he does not care at all about what she says or does, she will assert that "he is not a loving husband /boyfriend" or "I cannot live with him because he does not understand me," or "I do not feel anything for him anymore," or "sex without communication is a turn off"; once again inducing some very negative feelings within the man.

In the Self-Determination Stage, the female expresses her resentment and dissatisfaction with the relationship. This happens virtually without exception in the case of male partners who have become progressively psychologically weaker with time.

Men who are able to pass through these stages without a corresponding decrease in their women's sexual attraction towards them are exceptionally-strong men. These men avoid becoming psychologically weaker through the process. We believe that such men are more the exception than the norm. It is much better for nature to first create attraction between a male and a female and soon after have it decrease. That helps to ensure both a safe upbringing of the offspring as well as more sexual interactions with other sexual partners, which in turn results in more offspring and a wider spreading of genetic materials.

This is not much different from what happens with many animal species, including species where the female kills the male after copulation. In the case of humans, this "killing" happens on the psychological level. The killing of human males by their female partners is largely symbolic, but we must also take into account those men who take this process so seriously that they start to destroy their health through the abuse of alcohol or drugs, or start to abuse their partners, or even murder their partners or commit suicide.

In other words, permanently-monogamous sexual relationships are not necessarily natural. They are partly a modern, social construct. Or, put another way, they are a social construct, the evolutionary purpose of which lasts for as long as Nature considers it useful.

Manipulation End-Game

In traditional, male-dominated societies, if the female cannot leave the relationship when her attraction evaporates through the process discussed above, the end result is often clinical depression and/or cheating. Clinical depression occurs when her sexual attraction for her mate decreases or dies out completely, and she is prevented from having sex with other males by social restraint. The woman in this case has to face a practically impossible conflict between her emotions, which demand sexual satisfaction, and her societally-restrained behavior, which prohibits sexual satisfaction.

In modem, politically-correct societies, a common end result of the manipulation process is the woman ending the relationship, or acting in such a way that the man has no other choice but to end the relationship. Infidelity is very likely to happen in either case.

Psychological counseling and family therapy usually fail to help couples in this situation because they start from the shaky assumption that exclusive committed relationships are always "healthy" and that having sex with different partners is "sick." They also fail miserably in detecting the slow and dangerous psychological process whereby the mind of the male is confronted with schizophrenic double messages from the female, which would be considered to fit the clinical definition of Borderline Personality Disorder by most experienced clinicians on the planet.

Usually what happens in therapy and psychological counseling in the western world is that the male is made to be the scapegoat of a process which has been actively maintained by the female. There are some professionals who understand this process better than most, but they often do not have the courage to speak out about it. On a meta-level, what is happening with this social process is simply another evolutionary mechanism, one which allows for more pregnancies and for the upbringing of children in the most viable way possible.

There is certainly a strong cultural influence at work here and it behooves men to understand these forces and to work hard to make themselves strong men who do not succumb easily to female manipulation. Above all, a man with children should start from the premise that he is an equally important and vital link to a child's psychological well being. There are countless studies which show that statistically, children do better in every social and psychological respect when they enjoy the equal influences of a healthy male and a healthy female parent.

Practical Advice

Although the onset, intensity and order of occurrence of each of these stages in the betaization process may vary from woman to woman, in our experience this process has occurred in every long-term relationship we are familiar with: ours, our friends, and our families, and in countless case studies that we have researched. In fact, this process is exactly the means by which women turn short-term relationships into long-term relationships. However, female manipulation is not difficult to counter once a man understands the process. Let's revisit each stage in turn.

Testing never ends. Women test unconsciously. Testing is the woman's primary method for determining congruency and for discerning a man's authenticity; his ability to be genuine. Testing ceases to be an issue of any significant consequence when the man is fully congruent — both internally and externally. The woman will still always test, but once a man has it together, he will pass the woman's tests without much effort or even realizing he is being tested.

Since testing is so closely related to the mechanisms controlling sexual attraction, it is important to remember that testing never ends. Maintaining an appropriate level of attraction within any romantic relationship is very important. One way we, the authors, maintain attraction with our mates is through regular, social interaction with other attractive females. For more information on why maintaining friendships with the opposite sex is important to your relationship, please see Chapter 19, "Male Qualities Attractive to Women."

Seeking Communication is really her signal that she is suffering from emotional ambiguity. Most men view a woman's pronouncement of "I don't feel we are communicating" as a logical statement addressing the exchanging of facts — or a lack of such activity — between two people. It is not. It is an emotional statement involving her confusion and emotional disconnection from the relationship.

When the woman puts the blame on the man, this is normal, for two reasons. For one, women habitually blame their own emotional distress on external factors, thus absolving themselves from responsibility. When a man happens to be the most convenient "blame receptacle", then he gets the blame. The second reason she does this is that she is actually making a request for masculine leadership. She wants her man to step up and deal with her out-of-control emotional state with masculine strength, and without fear.

The only important word in any such statement coming from a woman is "feel." It's so important that in many cases it doesn't matter what she feels, as long as it's any emotion stronger than indifference. Anything with passion will do, as long as it's followed up, in all cases, with the appropriate level of physical commitment. And always make sure that intense displays of passion are followed by intense displays of affection. Let's be blunt: keep her well-sexed.

Being Put to Work can be stopped simply by saying "no." Do it sometimes. Just say no! If your woman has become habituated to your instant obedience, then refusing a request is going to stop her in her tracks. She will literally not know what to do. Lots of drama could ensue, so be prepared.

Another way to handle her constant requests is in a spirit of teasing and fun. You can gently make fun of her being "bossy," and so forth.

Yet another effective way to handle a woman's attempts to put you to work is to negotiate with her. For example, if she demands that you take the kids shopping for clothes, you can kindly request that she prepare a special meal while you are gone. While tit for tat may seem thoroughly unromantic, by the time a man is in this situation, we believe the romance is far gone anyway. There is nothing to lose, and your self-respect to regain.

Best yet, be proactive and act like a leader: women want to feel useful and contribute to something meaningful. Spend some time to give your female counterpart meaningful work, ensuring that you are the one who determines the direction of the family. You will find that agreeing on specific tasks becomes much easier. When you appreciate a good woman for her specific contribution, she will be delighted in her relationship, and feel she made an excellent selection in a man.

Evolutionary Selfishness is understandable when we consider that the female's primary concern is always for her own well-being and that of her children, It is difficult — if not impossible — for most women to feel altruistic or merciful towards a grown man. Your role as the man is to be her protector, or to get out of her way. However, as a strong protector you have great value in the eyes of a healthy woman. So the key here is to assert your value and put a price tag on your leadership of her and the family. This means simply that you lead the relationship and continually give her tasks within the context of the relationship.

Putting a price to your leadership also means having your own moral standards, whereby it's subcommunicated from the beginning and throughout the relationship that you, as a man, expect certain behaviors and certain types of treatment from the female, if she is to retain your interest in being her leader and protector. As we discussed in the chapters on Screening and Female Self-Esteem, certain women, obviously, will never be able to submit to male leadership, no matter how strong you are.

Self-Determination This stage is a very strong signal from the woman that — in her mind — the relationship has ended, or is about to end. She is effectively telling you that she no longer views the two of you as a unit. As difficult as it may seem, at this stage you may need to be prepared to let her go. Your best chance to salvage the relationship may be to start right back at the beginning; let her know that you are equally prepared to leave the relationship if you are not getting the respect and admiration that you want and deserve.

You never want to be in a position where you are chasing or begging a woman. Not only is that a pathetic position for a man to find himself in, but any shred of sexual attraction that had remained in the woman will be completely destroyed by such actions.

In reality, a man can survive just about anything, including the ending of a cherished relationship. Therefore, consider this stage as the ultimate test of how much of a man you really are. If you fail this test, the game is over with this particular woman.


[–]103342 141 points142 points  (1 child)

Really good post. This type of stuff is what got me hooked to TRP a couple of years ago.

[–]dissentforall 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This is a well written and thought of version of Patrice O'Neal's "Ho management" system with full evo psych backing.

[–]Chippendork 89 points90 points  (9 children)

We call this process betaization, where the strong, alpha male is rendered beta.

Most important thing that most TRPers don't seem to understand. A lot of those pathetic betas out there used to be killer alphas. Fat bitchy wives used to be hot submissive plates.

[–][deleted] 28 points29 points  (2 children)

They understand well. It's the entire focus of mrp, de programming men and building them up to where they used to be...

Or built for the first time.

I often wonder if some of the tougher younger guys in here are taking their lessons, when they have a multi year long assault on their psyche like this.

[–]1Dis_mah_mobile_one 11 points12 points  (0 children)

They do I think, or at least I do, but it's hard without a masculine group to keep you grounded. Marriage/LTRs should never be an isolated relationship of just you and your woman, they should be networks of strong, properly dominant men complementarily loving beautiful, properly submissive women in order to build civilization.

Both sexes need same sex groups to deepen relationships with and build the best version of their sex, and each sex's polarity should be heightened by the other's.

[–]Allegro6 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I surely do, I'm 22. Enjoying my anger phase, no fap and lifting after my 2 years LTR ended.

I did also quit videogames.

But I know I'm still blue as sky. Could use one advice.

[–]joeyjojosharknado 13 points14 points  (3 children)

It's because women are relentlessly and subconsciously manipulative, as OP's book suggests. Men have to make an effort to manipulate. We have to be 'on' to do this and it takes focus and diligence. Women's manipulative forces are 'on' all the time and they do it effortlessly. Even a formerly top alpha is worn down after 20 years of this.

Bill Burr did a (hilarious) bit on this, how women are relentless, like 'psycho robots'. No matter your frame and strength, you can't help but be worn down by this over appreciable time periods.

[–]JorixKienu 4 points5 points  (0 children)

So true.

Probably there is only one solution to this almost inevitable (given enough time) wear and tear made drop by drop by this 'psycho robots' what call themselfs womans.

For me the solution is male only space (self-space or shared male only space) and male only time (time for yourself only and/or time alone with men only).

Personally I prefer (and value most) self-space and time for myself, as in our society any man is 'betaizated', someone more (up to ridicule) someone less but still 'betaizated' inside .... but gentlemen, your mileage will certainly be different.

[–]its_meKnightSwolaire[🍰] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

And look at Bill Burr now... perfect example

[–]quieroser 0 points1 point  (0 children)

uff.. he is going through every step described in this article, and he doesn't even know it. I want to hear what he'll say when shit hits the fan.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

This reminds me of Al Bundy. Went from scoring 4 touchdowns in one game to being locked down by his wife and kids

[–]sd4c 7 points8 points  (0 children)

No Ma'am! Great show.

Matilda: I don't understand it. I was a size six before aerobics class. All the jumping must've expanded my foot.
Al: And I see you must've fallen on your but a time or two.
Matilda: How dare you say that to my face?
Al: Well I'd say it behind your back, but my car's only got half a tank of gas.

[–]Endorsed ContributorObio1 50 points51 points  (3 children)

This post is among the top-five I have ever seen on TRP.

Vote to have this on the sidebar.

[–]Ephidemical 18 points19 points  (1 child)

This book should be part of the required books to read. Seriously. It's like TRP for dummies without the jargon.

[–]its_meKnightSwolaire[🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Seconded.. I've read quite a few and this is my fav so far.

[–]Endorsed ContributorTheeRyanGrey 37 points38 points  (2 children)

The secret to passing this and ALL tests are to never take them seriously

No matter how angry or upset a woman gets never forget they are tempermentally children and you are in charge of the relationship.

She can not have a relationship without you much like you can not have sex with her, it is your call on when things are serious and when they're not.

[–]sd4c 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Yes, this. Your commitment is your pussy. Never be eager to have a "relationship" with a woman- because with women, commitment is a one-way street.

It's like being eager to have a pet cobra. Yes, there are cool aspects of it. But one day that motherfucker is gonna bite me.

[–]Endorsed ContributorTheeRyanGrey 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Make women work for your commitment, don't just give it away on date one is the motto here

[–]beAn0n 113 points114 points  (32 children)

I don't know if I've figured women out or if I just really fucking hate them.

[–][deleted] 97 points98 points  (4 children)

Maybe you hate them because you figured them out, or maybe you hate your past self for not figuring them out soon enough. I'm in both camps myself.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (2 children)

I definitely hate my former self. I look back and can't even believe I had girlfriends in high school. I was extremely into lifting and played multiple sports so I guess I did have that going, but damn, I was such a beta.

I think back to what my life was like before I met my wife: House parties on the weekend, everyone jamming out, everyone had a guitar or something, going out on boats, pick up basketball and baseball games, all the way into my early 20s. Then right after we got married, boom, all gone.

Since I found TRP almost a year ago, I've put on 40lbs, mostly muscle (because I am a hardgainer), I look great, I'm back shooting hoops, jamming with friends, and I even coach my son's baseball team. We've never had a drop in sex but damn, she craves it now.

But I'm coming to terms with it all, realized it was a brainwashing, raised on Disney movies, by a single mother, luckily my older brother is alpha as hell and I had that to help but accepting the true nature of women is something that still gets to me.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (1 child)

You were raised by a single mother? Probably age mid-30's by now? I have one more book for you, my friend. Iron John by David Bly. Time to un-brainwash your impression of what it means to be a man from your mother growing up.

Source: Only child, raised by single mother.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks I'll check it out. Late 20s btw

[–]pfffft_comeon 44 points45 points  (14 children)

Why would you hate them? Cause you got duped by society? By a specific girl? These aren't conscious maneuvers on her part. They are definitely, seemingly the best actions for her to take. But they aren't her best case scenario and won't make her happy in the long run. She has no idea what's going on. Every woman does this. The likelihood of a girl doing this is 100%. Who she is doesn't matter; what she is does. She sits when she pees.

Similarly you took steps not really knowing why. Like the girls, you took actions that you erroneously believed would make you happy. Neither her's nor your's are viable actions to reach happiness.

Did you hate school for forcing you to expend mental energy in order too learn? If youre really pushing yourself you'll feel discomfort. Some people hate that discomfort and refuse to learn. The ones who learn are better off. Its worth your time to learn because your true happiness depends on it.

Once you've learned and practiced, the ineffectual actions she take in her quest to find happiness dont matter. Shell join you and choose you to lead her.

[–]ForgingFakes 39 points40 points  (4 children)

This book spells out something that I think we are missing; something that I just realized. AWALT is nature's way. A woman's nature has evolved to serve a purpose. When was the last time you got pissed at the wind blowing, the sun shining, or waves crashing?

Either be the little boy who cries when the high tide destroys your sand castle, or the evolved man who harnesses nature's power and builds a sailboat.

[–]beAn0n 16 points17 points  (0 children)

something that I just realized. AWALT is nature's way.

Yes. And as a male, I've been nurtured. From mom, dad, school, relationships, friends. Feel let down. Just a little "oh my god this makes so much sense and it really chaps my ass" type of day for me right now.

[–]RPFlame 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Either be the little boy who cries when the high tide destroys your sand castle, or the evolved man who harnesses nature's power and builds a sailboat.

This is responsibility and ownership of your future, in it's best.

You can see it throughout the history of many civilizations. It's the nature of evolution and life.

The ones who sat around and complained got perished. The ones who sat around and put the hard work and thinking towards overcoming the obstacles and somehow managed to push through, won. We are the seed of those people.

It's survival of the fittest, the ones who adapt and grow. Will you overcome your tides or will they drown you?

[–]BobbyPeru 4 points5 points  (0 children)

This is an evolved viewpoint. Well said.

[–]SetConsumes 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, AWALT comes from women's very nature, their very brain wiring. Hence, no unicorns, because all women have female brains, and must conform to AWALT.

Thinking male and female brains are not physically different is bp feminist dogma.

[–]SetConsumes 3 points4 points  (3 children)

Because their nature is pathetic, mostly mindless, like an animal following its base instincts with little more.

Im totally fine with women being selfish and self interested. But vapid?

That is what gets me more than anything else. Their sheer and utter vapidity. A large part of what makes us human is our intellect and being able to go against our instincts and nature for intellectual reasons. Women hardly do this if at all, and lack appreciation for basically anything outside of themselves.

So perhaps if I was brought up not expecting women to be like men in the simple case of having true interest in humanity, I wouldn't look down on them so much for their vapidity. But I can't help it really, and I hold men to this standard too, but most men care about things outside of themselves.

Combine that with women's inability to be good, as they are all amoral, being incredibly selfish and Machiavellian, makes them pretty rather evil in a textbook like way(selfish, amoral, Machiavellian).

So great, I appreciate women better for what makes them them, but I hate them far more than previously conceivable.

How to move on to acceptance without hatred? I don't know.

[–]pfffft_comeon 2 points3 points  (2 children)

you only have so many resources. focus on a negative thing is focus you could be applying to a productive thing. it's a wasted emotion because in this case your anger does not result in a solution. adopting this mindset has nothing to do with them or anyone else, but has everything to do with your internal game and frame.

you're wasting your time.

[–]SetConsumes 3 points4 points  (1 child)

you only have so many resources. focus on a negative thing is focus you could be applying to a productive thing. it's a wasted emotion because in this case your anger does not result in a solution. adopting this mindset has nothing to do with them or anyone else, but has everything to do with your internal game and frame.

you're wasting your time.

You didn't really address my points, but okay.

I've always sought truth and to understand the human mind, so understanding the female mind is not a waste of time for me.

Part of it is my nihilism and lack of purpose for myself and for the existence of humanity. Women were like my solace and with that destroyed, I'm left in darkness.

Which, perhaps it is simply my perspective, but I haven't yet been able to come close to outweighing the overall negativity of civilization and life with the positivity of it.

[–]mummersfarce_is_done 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think you are still passing through the 5 stages. You don't need to worry. It will pass.

Humans are inherently good ----> you expect people to conform to a moral standard at a minimum

Women are more saintly than men ----> you hold women to even higher standards

Actually both are pedestalisations.

BP dogma leads you to emotionally invested expectations. When you have such expectations, frustration is sure to follow because anything that does not conform to it will shatter your ego invested world view. You said you are left in darkness. Just because humans are not the way you want them to be... Think about it.

[–]Thaweed 1 point2 points  (0 children)

well, why not, i also hate lions when they eat little zebras.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Probably because we don't get taught these valuable lessons, and have to go through them first to learn the lesson.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Probably because we don't get taught these valuable lessons, and have to go through them first to learn the lesson.

[–]Sensei_Hensei 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Anger phase is a struggle to get out of but you've put it in great perspective.

[–]trippinallday 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Things are always worse than you imagine. Before you had fairy tales ingrained in your subconscious with regards to women, so it was easy to think well of them. As you chip away at that, away goes all the magic and fantasy and you're left with the truth.

Better now than the tail end of a failed marriage.

[–]Chris_Phoenix 9 points10 points  (0 children)

"One must choose between loving women and knowing them" - Ninon de L'Enclos

[–]uniquevoid 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Anger is normal, I certainly feel that as well...

I met a girl at uni this week, everything was going smooth but then I realized how she just wants a man, any will do even though I'm top 3 alpha in my class.

She said everything I wanted to hear to catch me, now I listen to hear talk to other guys in the class room and I'm disgusted

I nexted her ofc

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I know exactly how you feel. The more I learn about women the less I like them, that's for sure. On the one hand we have a lot of spoiled, entitled bitches who actually do evil to men without a care (eg the false rape accusation epidemic, and feminists generally), and those don't really deserve any kind thoughts from us, anymore than a man behaving that way would.

On the other hand, there is just basic women's psychology, as this book goes into. When I compare with male psychology, for all its faults (which are many), I have come to appreciate men far more than women, the exact opposite of the way it used to be, and the way society tries to persuade us to feel. And it is true that just any ordinary woman can be maddeningly frustrating to deal with, and entirely out for herself.

It is hard sometimes to just step back and say, "well, that is just their nature. They are not responsible for their evolutionary past. You just have to learn to deal with it." Nonetheless, that is the main choice we have (other than avoid them altogether), and in fact women can also be delightful to be with when they are not misbehaving. So the more we learn how to handle them, the more of the delightful behaviour we get and the less of the shitty, maddening behaviour. Can't change women, but we can change how we interact with them.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I'm kinda in your camp. I wouldn't say I hate women though, I just know I can't trust them, and maybe it's my age group (18-22 - I'm 23) that contains a lot of girls that are shit.

For me, I can't stand women at this point because they just want all of my god damn time and I need that time to keep improving myself and reach my goals. Thus my loathe of women, especially when they attempt to weaponize their pussy. Not worth it.

Additionally, back to the subject of this post, every moment with women - outside of fucking - is stressful and saturated with a litany of tests attempting to betatize you. Just absolutely unnecessary hoops I have to jump through, so fuck em, MGTOW, or ONS or strict FWB at this point.

[–]Lawlesslaw 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm 32. I can tell you now, they're no better in my age group or above. no one is safe.

[–]ModeratorPaperStreetVilla 2 points3 points  (2 children)

You hate them because you want them to act like you do, and for you.

They don't, once you accept it, you can like them for what they are

[–]e4tshit 0 points1 point  (1 child)

You hate them because you want them to act like you do

exactly, with an iota of integrity. I'm not in the camp that excuses away their behavior because "it's in their nature" or "that's just the way their made". Meanwhile they have agency they just choose to follow emotions and instincts because why develop character when no one holds you accountable. When those tits sprout it's like when Mario gets the star.

[–]ModeratorPaperStreetVilla 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I wish I could remember where it was, Roissey had a nice post on this in CH. Morality if largely a male thing. women have their own measuring stick. It's largely because men bought into this 'equality' bullshit, that they try to judge womens actions by male standards.

They will always fall short, the same as you'll never function as well in the female social matrix. It's not a value judgment, it's the wrong measuring stick

[–]its_meKnightSwolaire[🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I often comment on this sub as well as the MGTOW sub...

Too many flat out woman haters on MGTOW... you can definitely rise above the hate

[–]HonestyOverCivility 45 points46 points  (0 children)

It seems like researched, informative, and objective redpill posts are really lacking these days.

Your post is a fantastic contribution to the community

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[deleted]

[–]Campes 5 points6 points  (1 child)

thanks! hopefully this can get added to the sidebar.

[–]bigk12345 15 points16 points  (2 children)

This post took me in a trip to the Beta memory lane where I have seen the ghosts of all my Exes.

Good shit.

Will order the book.

[–]its_meKnightSwolaire[🍰] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I'm reading it now on my kindle... it's gold and belongs on the side bar

[–]NeoreactionSafe 57 points58 points  (8 children)

 

This is why male Game is required from day one until the end.

Masculine polarity must be established in order to short circuit this "betafication process" that develops when things are done unconsciously.

The man who isn't Gaming his woman and shifting things towards a masculine (for him) and feminine (for her) polarity is doomed.

 

  • What "works" is Captain to Firstmate.

  • What "fails" is the "Yes Ma'am". (beta)

 

[–][deleted]  (2 children)

[removed]

    [–]NeoreactionSafe 0 points1 point  (1 child)

     

    Some say that Frame is just "inner Game".

    Ultimately the universe, both inner and outer, are bendable with Game awareness.

    We are taught to be rigid and inflexible... to be betas... caught in a mythology.

    But when we are free we can be aware of self (Frame) and others (Game) and have influence on everything.

    We choose to be free or to be a slave in all areas.

     

    [–]Eastuss 3 points4 points  (1 child)

    TIL that being a stubborn piece of shit for 10 year in my LTR may actually have had positive effects. Like, unwillingness to do what I'm asked, asking for counterparts, calling her emotional imbalance bullshit...

    [–]NeoreactionSafe 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Yes, having a strong will strengthens the relationship rather than weaken it.

     

    [–]immyownworstenemy 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    What are your thoughts on the viability of an existing LTR for men who: are 'somewhat masculine' because of having applied PUA since day 1, but each day are becoming a more 'true masculine' because of having applied TRP more recently?

    [–]NeoreactionSafe 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    Masculine polarity is always better than Androgyny.

    It's always better to be more Masculine than less.

    But be sure to include Rewards and Punishments so that she gets both sides.

    Reward with Comfort when necessary. (don't be an asshole all the time)

     

    [–]immyownworstenemy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Hmm, thanks. Maybe I'm just overthinking it. I'll keep it simple and continue to increase masculine polarity.

    [–]pfffft_comeon 28 points29 points  (0 children)

    "Your woman will never stop trying to bitch you up"

    -Patrice O'Neal

    Im paraphrasing but that sentiment is 100% on point. This post fills in on details and responses to her behavior. Great post. Remember she has no idea that she's doing this and can't help herself. You dont need to know the girl to know that she will. It doesn't matter who she is; you only need to know what she is. She sits down when she pees.

    Put yourself first guys. Always be selfish. Only times I wouldn't are in necessary situations with your boys (and you should vet who let in your inner circle) and obviously blood relationships.

    [–]NeckbeardVirgin69 11 points12 points  (0 children)

    Very good post. Best I've read in a looong time, on here.

    I like the way the tone remains detached and unemotional.

    Too many people on here get pissed about the constant testing. To be honest, if a girl is right for you, you'll pass her tests easily (that was also mentioned in the post).

    [–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

    This book is excellent at decoding female covert communication. It's all about plausible denialibility for them through open ended communication that is way too subtle for the male brain to pick up.

    I just finished the book and agree that it is one of the best things out there. And it is definitely a different read than your standard RP stuff.

    [–]Endorsed ContributorAuvergnat[S] 9 points10 points  (6 children)

    This is not much different from what happens with many animal species, including species where the female kills the male after copulation. In the case of humans, this "killing" happens on the psychological level. The killing of human males by their female partners is largely symbolic, but we must also take into account those men who take this process so seriously that they start to destroy their health through the abuse of alcohol or drugs, or start to abuse their partners, or even murder their partners or commit suicide.

    (emphasis mine)

    This is, to me, the most powerful part of this chapter.

    Women have evolved manipulation skills that allow them to extract the resources they need from a physically stronger partner that will always remain reluctant in giving away the precious resources he manages to build up. Like the herbivore "extracting" precious calories from plants. Like the female praying mantis "extracting" precious calories from the very body of the male.

    But the methodology used to extract these resources in the human species, short of killing males, is so fucking sneaky that, for the man who doesn't understand this process, it constitutes a very real psychological torture.

    You hear of men bailing on their family, getting verbally or physically violent or committing suicide, and you hear people who knew these men being dumbfounded because "John as always been so peaceful, so loving, so joyful. I don't understand. It doesn't make sense". And society refuses to acknowledge the actual female roots of many of men's destructive behaviors. Quite the contrary, such anecdotes are always used as more ammo by feminists and manipulated men (white knights / manginas) to expound on how men are evil and how women are innocent victims and how we need to do more for women, which then confirms women in their behavior, increasing the issue ever forward...

    But fear not, my friends. We don't have to get angry. We don't have to complain. We don't have to give up on sexuality. We just have to do as men do: gather knowledge and act on it. Which in this case is understand female's manipulation and play with it. The more this knowledge spreads and reaches out to men, the more men will remain in control of their relationships, the more men (and women) will be happy, the less male self-destructive behaviors will occur, the less relevant the feminist discourse will become...

    [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (2 children)

    But fear not, my friends. We don't have to get angry. We don't have to complain. We don't have to give up on sexuality. We just have to do as men do: gather knowledge and act on it. Which in this case is understand female's manipulation and play with it. The more this knowledge spreads and reaches out to men, the more men will remain in control of their relationships, the less male self-destructive behaviours will occur, the less relevant the feminist "logic" will become.

    and the sooner life will return to normal, just like in the good old days!

    [–]sd4c 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    and the sooner life will return to normal

    Not in this age of robotic assembly lines, and information-management work. Life won't "return to normal" until there is war, as the post says:

    In our modern society, the need to test for physical qualities and financial stability has become less important than the need for qualities such as leadership, intellectual capacity, and strength of personality; but that would be quickly reversed in the case of war.

    War (one which seriously threatens civilians on BOTH sides) brings value to men because while women can aim and shoot just as well as we can, they can't carry ammunition worth a DAMN. Only physically elite females can survive carrying an 80-lb pack for 20 miles- a routine, mundane task for average male Marines.

    Tanks, drones, and bombers can destroy, but to OCCUPY, infantry is needed. Even if the ammo carried by that infantry is energy packs for laser rifles, suppression is king and if your weapon's dry, you're dead.

    [–]graffix13 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Yes this part stuck out to me too. And it's actually pretty terrifying because it's done on a subconscious level.

    Some of us are lucky to realize this and found TRP, but for others...they aren't so lucky. They are either too oblivious or due to having children with their partner, accepting of their fate.

    Thanks again for the wonderful post. I'm buying the book right now.

    [–]sd4c 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    But the methodology used to extract these resources in the human species, short of killing males, is so fucking sneaky that, for the man who doesn't understand this process, it constitutes a very real psychological torture.

    This betaization, this sneaky and slow cooking of the frog, is so powerful that for some men, we give up our time and resources without even getting sex. I've noticed a progression in my timeline of various objects of affection (Oneitises):

    1) Early High School: I'd get a crush on a gorgeous girl I had seen but who barely knew I existed, or a cute girl who friend-zoned me

    2) Late High School: I'd get oneitis for girls who would date and make out with me (teases)

    3) College: I'd get oneitis for all one night stands/hook-ups

    4) Post-College: I'd get oneitis for one night stands that were HB7+

    5) Present Day: I'm able to get oneitis, but only for pretty girls who give me a regular supply of sex (aka, Mind-Control Mucous)

    My goal is to be able to reserve my feelings only for a woman who bears a child for me. Not sure if I'll get there, or when. But getting burnt helps, as has having raised my SMV.

    [–]its_meKnightSwolaire[🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Yep getting burnt enough will eventually create a cold heart of stone. It's a better place to be honestly

    [–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

    This is exactly what my last ex did to me and I fell for it. From the initial sexual attraction all the way to ending it by some dumb doublespeak. I won't ever be that guy again.

    [–]J_AsapGem 6 points7 points  (1 child)

    God dude... the accuracy of this is staggering, what's worst i have a prime example under my own roof, and everything that was stated checks out, my brother and his girlfriend, she started the relationship very loving with him then as your post statement the " emotional connect " from there she put him to work, he has been cooking and cleaning after her for the pass year name.

    [–]e4tshit 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    everything that was stated checks out

    2nd that, grinding my damn teeth while reading it.

    [–]Temperfuelmma 5 points6 points  (1 child)

    Whoever wrote this is a complete genius.

    Great material, totally going to give it a read when I get the time.

    [–]sd4c 7 points8 points  (0 children)

    Whoever wrote this is a complete genius.

    Yes. And so is the OP, check it out:

    If you're 100% overt/masculine, you'll be attractive but you'll get mentally owned like a child and eventually lose. If you're 100% covert/feminine, you'll play masterfully at women's game but you'll eventually lose attraction because you're not being masculine (and not being exploited as she needs you to be). So overall, play both games: let the overly masculine in you speak, get exploited a bit (but be aware of it), then switch tactics and don't let yourself owned, then be blunt again, etc. Keep her on her toes.

    [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (11 children)

    She wants her man to step up and deal with her out-of-control emotional state with masculine strength, and without fear.

    The book "Way of the Superior Man" by David Dieda is a great "how-to" practice book for doing this.

    For example, sometimes when a woman gets angry, sometimes we men want to try to reason with them. Because, that's what we do - we reason to de-escalate, right? Well the book says next time a woman gets angry - go up and hug her. Tell her you love her .etc. This may not make sense to the man, but it's a show of courage to "go above logic" and "go above the illogical emotions" being displayed by the woman at the moment. I also like the book because it already acknowledges that the feminine within a woman won't necessary be logical. A woman might say one thing and feel another thing at another time. But it's part of why we are attracted to the feminine of a woman - it's who she is. We tend to be attracted to our polar opposite. The book also is written in such a non-confrontational way, but deep beneath the language is the secret towards understanding - and dealing - with women's emotions.

    Edit: The book uses a far softer language than the book OP has mentioned in this thread. Even so, this book says a man will courageously handle a woman's emotions, but at some point he'll leave if it's too much. I'm paraphrasing, but essentially, learn how to handle the fire by playing with the fire, not resisting it. But if it's too hot, a real man leaves his hand intact.

    [–]Eastuss 3 points4 points  (8 children)

    The more I read through this thread, the more I believe I've been partly having the natural right behaviour.

    But the weird part is I've always thought my girlfriend was extra crazy deluxe, and so I just stopped trying to figure out logical solution and tried to directly hit on the emotional level. Sounds like a general thing to do then...

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (7 children)

    Exactly. Now the thing here is - you learn how to communicate with them, but at some point if it's too crazy - if it's too hot - then be prepared to leave. The book uses a far softer language than the book OP has mentioned in this thread. Even so, this book says a man will courageously handle a woman's emotions, but at some point he'll leave if it's too much. I'm paraphrasing, but essentially, learn how to handle the fire by playing with the fire, not resisting it. But if it's too hot, a real man leaves his hand intact.

    Edit: By the way, since you stopped trying to figure out the logical solution, how has it been going?

    [–]Eastuss 2 points3 points  (6 children)

    Edit: By the way, since you stopped trying to figure out the logical solution, how has it been going?

    Not well every time because I'm not yet capable to distinguish everything, I've hard time not taking things personally and am not consistent. Lately I would often just tell her that I'll talk to her when she stops her bullshit and wait a mood switch or an event that would re approach us in an affectionate manner. Other times I would take it personally and I would bullshit the same way she does, and fun thing is that works too, switching pressure and showing shared pain.

    Some other times if I am convinced it's not about me I'll just display affection, try to boost her self-esteem, and try randomly telling things reassuring her "Afraid to loose your job? Why do you even care? I'll assure you stability until you find another one." and it's about guessing right, the example above works well, maybe it is the "stability" part that hits the right spot, like explained in the post it may be asserting my value.

    I think I failed all the "I don't feel we are communicating" or variants "You ignore me all day" / "We didn't even talked to each other today". I haven't any valid concious strategy for this, most of the time she would throw these things when I actually used most of my time being with her and while having very little time for myself. It's weird because at these moment I'm like depressed because I don't have time for myself, I believe that this whole shit is just the result of me showing weakness or instability.

    At many moment I thought that I would be better leaving, but I never had the strength to do it. Instead, I started taking care of myself and my body, raised my SMV, tried to apply strategies so that our interactions are better and so that my place in the couple is strong. Lately I had her accept many things from me she never accepted before, and am slowly teacher her how I really am and that I will not hide anymore. Basically I'm trying to make her swallow a big red pill about me...

    Sorry for the wall of personal life.

    [–]SetConsumes 2 points3 points  (4 children)

    What truly helps me a lot is seeing her like a child. Most of her illogical statements I simply react now with positive feelings or funny distractions, or the occasional negative feelings.

    Works so much better than being logical. Regardless of my woman being more logical than plenty, she still isn't really logical.

    Ha, I remember when she said she wanted to have more input on decisions in our life. I asked her where or what specifically after arguing for 5 min, she had nothing, crickets.

    That was my turning point. I truly knew without an inkling of doubt that there isn't some chain of logical truths in her head. Or else she wouldn't say I want these things, and then not be able to define those things at all.

    Madness, all of it.

    [–]Eastuss 0 points1 point  (3 children)

    Haha that sounds really like the random "i want more X" without any reason. I think I start getting it :) thanks!

    What if one day that request is legitimate?

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Thanks for sharing, Eastuss. Looking at her like a child is exactly what works. Men get in trouble because we start to uphold logical agreements as well as emotional agreements - and it's a trap. Or as OP of this thread might say, based on the book, it's just the programming women do. Just understand women are not logical.

    [–]silentlyfurious 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    ask her why she feels that way, and/or figure it out yourself from observations of her behaviour.

    dont ask her why she thinks that.

    its not a thought.

    its a feeling.

    or just distract her with other feelings as /u/SetConsumes says above

    [–]SetConsumes 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Haha that sounds really like the random "i want more X" without any reason. I think I start getting it :) thanks!

    Pretty much. When you see it so blatantly it can still catch you off guard.

    What if one day that request is legitimate?

    If it's a legitimate request she'll have legitimate reasons to back up the request. It's the hard part to figure out, so I ask for reasons while not taking her seriously to begin with, and if a serious reason is given then I will act accordingly.

    [–]tekende 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    Well the book says next time a woman gets angry - go up and hug her. Tell her you love her .etc. This may not make sense to the man, but it's a show of courage to "go above logic" and "go above the illogical emotions" being displayed by the woman at the moment.

    But isn't that just rewarding shitty behavior?

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    See that's the logical explanation. But it's actually living in abundance. For example - she gets pissed at you. You hug her. She cheers up. The mood changes. You've manned up. Everyone's happy.

    Note - Again, remember feminine women aren't logical when they are emotional. She will probably be relieved that you were the positive influence and snapped her out of her angry emotion.

    Now if she ends up using that as a way to fish hugs from you, then that's a negative pattern about her and that's another issue.

    [–]cesarfd 6 points7 points  (1 child)

    In other words, permanently-monogamous sexual relationships are not necessarily natural. They are partly a modern, social construct.

    They are not natural and are certainly a modern, social construct. That's the reason a male has to have other sexual options on the side at all times regardless of the LTR he's into.

    Long term sexual monogamy only serves women's interests.

    Psychological counseling and family therapy usually fail to help couples in this situation because they start from the shaky assumption that exclusive committed relationships are always "healthy" and that having sex with different partners is "sick."

    Societal programming is sick.

    [–]sd4c 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Long term sexual monogamy only serves women's interests

    Make it serve your own. Flip the script. If you're providing her with something you can't get back (your time, your status and connections, food, a space to live in) then make sure she's providing you with something she can't undo, either:

    -kids
    -money

    One or the other, but preferably, both. Sex doesn't count, because the man does most of the work and birth control means she's not risking much. Find a hot girl, who is sane and has a decent family. Knock her up. Yes, she can turn her back on you. Yes, she can extort you for child support. Even turn the kid against you. But no matter what, she cannot take that kid back. You've heard before, "At least one good thing came out of that relationship..." It's true.

    [–]sonder_one 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Tests are constant. IOIs reveal whether you're passing.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

    [–]Endorsed ContributorAuvergnat[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    This is exactly the dynamics that led to our current feminized society where women complain to get more and more stuff and get it.

    From this book and other reads (particularly from the awesome IllimitableMan), I start seeing the pervasiveness of Manipulation as the main power tool of the weaker.

    • A child manipulates his (more powerful) parents into providing him resources. (Steven Pinker's "the blank slate" is a great read touching on this topic)

    • Women in society manipulate the (more powerful) males into providing them more stuff.

    • A wife manipulates her (more powerful) husband into getting more of what she wants.

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Pure gold. Bought it straight away. Thanks for the steer! Interestingly, I wrote in a comment just a few days ago that women suck at relationships, even though they generally think they are good at them (and certainly better at them than men). This book brings out exactly why they suck, and why they can be so exasperating to deal with.

    [–]scrodzilla 5 points6 points  (1 child)

    Man, my reading list keeps getting longer and longer.

    [–]BobbyPeru 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    This one should go right to the top... Trust me

    [–]Vuhrami 2 points3 points  (13 children)

    Fantastic Read - Will look at picking up the book. A question I have is how to surpass the seeking communication stage. It seems that the response to that question should be to escalate sexually?

    [–]Endorsed ContributorAuvergnat[S] 11 points12 points  (12 children)

    I'd say combine a number of things:

    • First, DO "communicate". If you shut off conversation or get angry at her lack of logic, you comfort her claim that you're not "communicating" indeed, and when faced with the truth of that statement at later stages, your man logic will crumble. But "communicate" as women do (manipulating, obfuscating, lying, etc.) rather than as a man (taking discussion logically, providing useful information, accepting blame, etc.). Practical advice: do sit down and talk. Talk nonsense and lie. Keep a smirk on your face. Alternate accepting the blame and refusing it.

    • Second, increase the feelings. Her "need to communicate" means she's unhappy with the relationship. To make a woman happy, make her feel. Good or bad, doesn't matter. But she needs to feel. Sex is a great way to make her feel, but she might withhold it because it's your "reward" for complying with her demands and she's currently unhappy with your compliance if she's complaining about "communication". Practical advice: the occasional bum smack, some dread, some nice one-off surprise, some adventure, etc.

    • Third, step up as an alpha man. Again, facing her unhappiness that prompted her "need to talk", take it as a sign you need to lead more, lift more, dread more. The woman getting the exclusive resources of an alpha man doesn't "need to talk".

    [–]GodZDeaD 5 points6 points  (7 children)

    That's solid advice. I've come to realize that arguing logically with women is a lose-lose situation. You get frustrated and she becomes confused or embarrassed. So we have to "beat" women at their own game? The game they are evolutionarily predisposed to excel at? That has to be a though one.

    And you contradict yourself because you mention accepting/refusing blame as a logical form of communication and then you advice it. Is alternating between the two what makes it a successful strategy?

    [–]Endorsed ContributorAuvergnat[S] 5 points6 points  (5 children)

    So we have to "beat" women at their own game? The game they are evolutionarily predisposed to excel at? That has to be a though one.

    You are right. And worse than that, I think playing entirely that game might be counterproductive. I know I contradict myself a bit, but mind you I'm still learning too. For now I believe that you have to play both overt and covert games alternatively and randomly. If you're 100% overt/masculine, you'll be attractive but you'll get mentally owned like a child and eventually lose. If you're 100% covert/feminine, you'll play masterfully at women's game but you'll eventually lose attraction because you're not being masculine (and not being exploited as she needs you to be). So overall, play both games: let the overly masculine in you speak, get exploited a bit (but be aware of it), then switch tactics and don't let yourself owned, then be blunt again, etc. Keep her on her toes.

    And you contradict yourself because you mention accepting/refusing blame as a logical form of communication and then you advice it. Is alternating between the two what makes it a successful strategy?

    "Thinking on the situation at hand, analyze it logically and decide to accept OR refuse the blame and stick to it" is male and logical. Saying one thing and then saying the opposite is female and illogical. I was advocating for obfuscation: if she blames you, accept it... then refuse it... then accept it again... then say you never accepted it in the first place. Women's game. Or politician or businessman's game if you prefer. (Gotta love Trump's awesome use of that technique consisting in saying one thing, then denying he ever said that only 30 minutes later. That's the best way to avoid all responsibility and move the conversations towards better topics for you)

    [–]sd4c 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    If you're 100% overt/masculine, you'll be attractive but you'll get mentally owned like a child and eventually lose. If you're 100% covert/feminine, you'll play masterfully at women's game but you'll eventually lose attraction because you're not being masculine (and not being exploited as she needs you to be). So overall, play both games: let the overly masculine in you speak, get exploited a bit (but be aware of it), then switch tactics and don't let yourself owned, then be blunt again, etc. Keep her on her toes.

    Perfect. This guy gets it.

    [–]GodZDeaD 0 points1 point  (3 children)

    Leave them guessing, leave the feeling. Sound strategy. Just, what do you mean by "being exploited as she needs you to be"? Didn't quite get that one.

    [–]Endorsed ContributorAuvergnat[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

    I think that because women are basically "designed" to extract resources from a man through exploitation/manipulation, you need to give her the feeling that she's doing it successfully. For example, comfort tests: the day she cries because she needs some love, you give her some. Makes her feel good to see that she can get you to do her biddings... at least once in a while.

    that part's got to be the least difficult. that's what we men naturally do the best: getting manipulated by women. Unless you're a shit hot alpha that is..

    [–]GodZDeaD 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    I think Pareto's 80/20 principle applies here: Engaging in masculine modes of communication 80% of the time and 20% feminine.

    Allow for slight/innocent (consented) manipulation 20% of the time, while remaining stoic to her advances the remaining 80%.

    Agree?

    [–]Endorsed ContributorAuvergnat[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    sounds good to me. apply, analyse and report!

    [–]SetConsumes 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Yes, you have to beat women at their own game. Which is quite doable, especially because men can be objective whereas women have a hard time, especially when emotional.

    The greatest con artists are men, not women, after all.

    [–]Eastuss 0 points1 point  (3 children)

    How about the tests? I have hard time understanding what are those tests, i've read few things about answering and addressing them (shit test 101 in the sidebar) but can't really get a proper example.

    [–]Endorsed ContributorAuvergnat[S] 5 points6 points  (2 children)

    A shit test is a subgenre of subcommunication.

    Subcommunication is this: A comment is made that hide some important subtext behind facade boring information.

    A shit test is one where the subtext is meant to verify your congruence with what you appear, typically some alpha trait (dominance, leadership, etc.). The girl is basically sending you a verbal screwball subtext to see if you can pick it up and answer in line with what you project. If you answer to the facade information and failing to pick up the subtext, you fail. If you pick up the subtext but fails to provide an answer congruent with what you project, you fail. To pass, you need to pick up the subtext and answering in congruence with the image you project.

    Your bible should be: https://illimitablemen.com/2014/12/14/the-shit-test-encyclopedia/

    Extract:

    I’ll give you an example of a common shit test women use, for the sake of the example let’s pretend your name is Tom: “Haha Tom is one of those player guys, you can tell just by looking at him!” It will sound like a complaint, but it isn’t, it’s a shit test and she wants to see how you respond to her bullshit. She is conjuring up inane accusatory nonsense purely to incite a response and determine your level of confidence. After she says this she will look at you to gauge your body language and get a better read on your frame.

    Strong response: “Sounds like you’ve got an eye for talent.” Body language wise give her strong “I’m gonna fuck you ’till I split you like the Grand Canyon” eyes, or be aloof and distant as if to suggest her test is pathetic. Shit test passed, vagina’s beginning to moisten.

    Weak response: “I would never dream of stringing a girl along!” and then you start idiotically justifying how “you’re not like that” eyes widening, palms are sweaty, wishing you were at home with your mum’s spaghetti. Shit test failed, she’s drying up.

    The best way for you to understand shit tests is to expose yourself to it. It starts by talking with girls and at some point after a comment, you realizing "wait a second. There is some subtext here.". It'll come with practice.

    [–]Eastuss 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    Thanks, the words you use make more sense to me!

    Your post helped a lot, especially for the seeking communication part that I was totally oblivious of. But for shit test I am really not getting them. I had already put my eyes on your link, I've not read it entirely but most examples aren't really adapted to my 10 yo LTR. Both shit tests and frame seem very different.

    Maybe common shit tests she my be doing are jokes about me. To which I used to answer that it's not possible because other women ignore me.
    But I changed recently to a messages inducing me being picky or me having spent too much time educating her sexually for having sex with an inexperienced woman. That's cringy and all jokes but at least it doesn't seem to lower my value.

    It's not bad considering I wasn't aware of TRP and that I emerged lot successful behaviours that I then saw on TRP. Still not great.

    [–]SetConsumes 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Shit tests are typically complaints, demands. Seeing what she can get you to do with emotional manipulation.

    [–]imbeciI 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    It's a long read, but incredibly useful.

    Thanks for your contribution. It should be added to the sidebar as well.

    [–]postreformedpua 2 points3 points  (2 children)

    Sometimes it feels like the only winning move is not to play. It makes me appreciate MGTOW a bit more.

    [–]Endorsed ContributorAuvergnat[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

    I get you. If I could take a pill to become asexual, I wouldn't hesitate a second. But since testosterone flows through my veins and sex drives me, fuck it, I'll play the game. But be sure I'll play to win.

    [–]SetConsumes 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    How fucked is that? To wish being asexual? Fuck.

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Thanks for posting this. I now completely understand the dynamics of my last relationship (and maybe alle of the LTRs I have been in). Too bad that this book is only in Kindle version. I would like this on my shelf.

    [–]redknightcrusader 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Holy shit, this is soooo true of every single LTR I have had. Thank you for sharing I am getting this book!

    [–]P4_Brotagonist 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    I have a question that I've been curious about for a long period of time. You say that manipulation is a learned thing from observation. I think this is definitely true. You observe other people do it, and follow suit.

    However, you also talk about "how would you feel if every time you had sex, you had a chance to get stuck carrying a baby for 9 months." That however is no longer true. Most younger women I know have had at least one abortion, and I know a few in particular are nearing double digits on them to the point I wonder if they will be sterile soon. If learning manipulation through observation is valid, then how is the other also valid? You don't have to carry a child at all anymore, and it seems like most women opt into the "get out of jail" card.

    [–]Endorsed ContributorAuvergnat[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    1. I didn't write the post, I reprinted it.

    2. The authors don't say manipulation is learned by observation. They suggest it might be instinctive and/or learned by habit of doing it and benefiting from the results.

    Read about evolutionary psychology (for example, Matt Ridley's "the red queen").

    In short, people have some behaviours because these behaviours favored survival and reproduction of our ancestors that had them. For example, you have a strong desire for sex right? What do you think happened to your ancestors that did not have this desire? They did not reproduce and therefore the genes for "not desiring sex" didn't make it to our generation. Those ancestors that had this desire? They reproduced shitloads and therefore the genes for "desiring sex" are widespread in our generation.

    Today, birth-control makes "desire for sex" almost irrelevant to reproduction, but back in the days, there was no birth control. To see which behaviours might have been selected-for, you only have to think of them in the past, not today. Men are still desiring sex like crazy even though it doesn't necessary lead to reproduction.

    That's how you can understand modern people's behavior: by analyzing how such behavior was beneficial for survival and reproduction in the past. Manipulation in women is a good example: women who could manipulate men in the past were more likely to survive and reproduce, therefore we can start assuming it is an instinctive behaviour.

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    A quick question, are there advice or chapter dedicated to maintaining attraction in a relationship in the book ?

    [–]grewapair 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    This is simply the best post I've read in three years on Reddit. Thanks for posting it.

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    This is the stuff I come to TRP. Amazing post, op. I'm gonna bookmark this and buy the book.

    [–]its_meKnightSwolaire[🍰] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Awesome post... adding this to my kindle right meow...

    [–]jaggedlittleredpill 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Good god man this is an eye opener. If only I had this knowledge in my younger years.

    Just bought the book. Your post pure gold.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (8 children)

    You make it look like women are simple animals that only follow their instinct. Not saying you are wrong lol.

    [–]Endorsed ContributorObio1 6 points7 points  (6 children)

    More importantly: So are men just following instincts.

    Consider this: We males are all programmed (to varying extents) to want to be tested, provide and share assets.

    Knowing, understanding and internalizing that potential weakness is essential to redpill theory, and ultimately to exploiting the dynamic for our advantage.

    [–]SetConsumes -1 points0 points  (5 children)

    Men don't just follow their instincts. They came up with institution of monogamy which goes against their instincts because of intellectual reasons for example.

    Men through their intellect can defy their instincts and urges and base animal ways.

    [–]Endorsed ContributorAuvergnat[S] 2 points3 points  (3 children)

    Yeah? How long can you remain willingly without sex?

    [–]SetConsumes 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    If someone wants and trains themselves to, they can be celibate.

    [–]Endorsed ContributorAuvergnat[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    you don't believe in evolutionary psychology do you?

    [–]SetConsumes 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Generally, yes I agree with many evo psych positions.

    I know people that are celibate out of choice. It is quite doable.

    [–]Areu4realm8 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    beta men came up with the institution of monogamy, and forced everyone to follow it, becaus ethat was the only way they could get pussy.

    [–]joeyjojosharknado 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    I think TRP is essentially about understanding the deep instinctive motivations of both women and men that go on behind the veneer of rationality and culture. These are realities that as a female-focused culture we are conditioned to not overtly mention or acknowledge, which of course is beneficial females but detrimental to males. As a man I'm glad there are places like TRP that at least attempt to redress that balance.

    [–]BobbyPeru 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    I just finished reading this book yesterday. 200 pages, and I was upset that there wasn't more. I agree – by far one of the best RP books I've ever read.

    [–]SetConsumes 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    You'd enjoy The Anatomy of Female Power perhaps.

    [–][deleted]  (5 children)

    [deleted]

    [–]Endorsed ContributorAuvergnat[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

    I need to know more about these guys. What's mASF?

    [–][deleted]  (3 children)

    [removed]

      [–]Endorsed ContributorAuvergnat[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

      [removed]

        [–]Endorsed ContributorAuvergnat[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        ? Ok I'll look for more. pretty good start anyway

        [–]RedPillHanSolo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Very good. Reminds me of past quality posts here. OP, thanks for suggestion, it will be next book I pick up.

        [–]Driv3n 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Great post. Completely outlined my last relationship! Buying the book tomorrow!

        [–]Chris_Phoenix 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        It was a long read but all of it was gold. The last major relationship of my beta days followed this exact pattern to a tee. Even now there are days where I notice subtle changes in my LTR attempting to chip away at my authority in the relationship. Stay vigilant, and always be willing to walk when she crosses a line, no matter who she is to you, or you'll forever be doomed to beta servitude

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

        Reading a lot of posts like this, I guess I'm filling the role of the lazy beta male sitting back relaxing and thinking, "Too much work."

        Don't get me wrong, I'm in shape but the primary motivation behind that is mental health. I look at a most women around me and I see danger to my mental health. Omega, beta, alpha, sigma, whatever, I'm just the guy who strives to be too relaxed to play the game.

        [–]sd4c 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        LTR Game. It's not work as long as you are punching at your own weight class (SMV) and as long as you enjoy it. I find that I enjoy regular sex with the same beautiful woman, enough that I'm willing to invest some time in it. But when I'm busy, it's not worth it.

        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        I agree that a woman's SMV in comparison to one's own would factor in a lot in that.

        [–]rayboomboom 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        This post thoroughly unbefuddled me.

        [–]ChickenBalotelli 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        I'd be so fucked if I'd never found RP. Thank you baby krishnah!

        [–]desno 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Great post my man. It's posts like these which keep us on our toes and prevent us from getting too complacent (and hence becoming more blue pill and beta)

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        This post actually helps me appreciate women. Also the 'manosphere' for taking the time to articulate their findings, and myself for swallowing this jagged pill over the last few years.

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Wow, I am sold. Buying this book now... incredible.

        [–]YourRussianUncle 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        This is the reason men who want to be "loved" will fail.

        The goal as far as her feelz is: respect, admiration, emotional dependency, and so on.

        "Love" is something they feel for kids and kittens. They can't handle "loving" a man and being sexual with him at the same time.

        .02

        [–]mrHappyPotatoe 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        But as a strong man to who and when we can dump our emotions and other stuff that is not that manly? We cant just swallow all up or lock it behind some door or bury it. I understamd that as a man we should never really "open up" to a woman?

        [–]Endorsed ContributorAuvergnat[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        close family (parents), mates, a professional therapist, a dog

        [–]OneInAZillion 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        Am I allowed to throw a download link on here or is that some sort of illegal?

        [–]10211799107 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        I'll take a download link via PM.

        [–]JackGetsIt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        It seems like Jack Donovan's stuff is a lot more put together and marketed/error checked. Question. Why can't Mr. Tomassi and Mr. South find good editors and publishers?

        [–]p3n1x 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Read the whole book guys. Great stuff.

        [–]throwaway13831571 0 points1 point  (7 children)

        Writing here may be a mistake but it seems to me that there are two subs that would have the best feedback for me TRP, and Swingers

        So here's my story and situation. I'll be as brief as possible so as to cut to the meat of the matter.

        I'm a former dead bedroom guy. I've been married to the same woman for some time and throughout our relationship her interest in sex has been minimal at best. A few years ago we tried to have children but found out that it was not in the cards (her issue not mine). The knee jerk reaction from TRP community will likely be to drop her and go find some other pussy to pound. While that's "great" advice, it's bullshit. This woman I'm with, I truly love her. It's not the fabled one-itis. The situation is that everything else between us is amazing. There is simply a missing part and that part happens to be the sex part.

        But before you groan and shoo me out, hear me out.

        I've recently met another woman. She is the antithesis of my wife. She is liquid sex. She is sensual, sensational, intense, and just as salacious as I am. The connection between us is incredible and the sex...my god the sex is just out of this fucking world. Now she is the antithesis to my situation in another way. She herself is married. Her husband knows of her affair with me and he supports her in it. Yes...that's right. I went from "dead bedroom" to being the bull in their cuckold/hotwife relationship. It's a bizarre situation but I'm riding it out because...life is strange and why the fuck not.

        So I'm writing here for advice...not because I need it...but more so because I have no one else to bounce ideas off of. My plan is to have my wife get introduced to my lover. Not that she would know that was the case at first. I have suspected for a long time that part of our 'dead bedroom' condition comes from possible lesbian leanings. My new fling has already expressed an interest in...testing this. So that's what the goal is. So here's my plan and this is the part that I'm looking for feedback on. Introduce her to my mistress in a comfortable setting by making it seem like it was her idea. My mistress is a yoga teacher, so my plan is to concoct a "free month" sort of give away that we can take advantage of as a couple. I'll play it cool and collected and I'd get my mistress to pay my wife a lot of compliments. That part shouldn't be hard since she already thinks she's really cute. Introduce her to my mistress' husband. The point of this is to make these interactions "couples" things. That should make it easier for my wife to accept spending more time with them. It will also give time for me and the husband to chat while the girls chat. Introduce more private situations for interaction. Basically having them over or us going over to their place. The plan with this is again to concoct some reason why I would need to be at their place, such as to help with renovations etc. This would give the girls time together.

        Introduce sexual tension. At this point taking her out of our house and out of the yoga studio there should be enough rapport between everyone that she feels comfortable. At this point, I would have my mistress ramp up her flirtations and test my wife. If she had the husband hit on her that would never work. But having another woman hit on her...I think it would be a novelty and an exciting one at that for her. If she tells me about the flirtation I'd react with a "that's hot!" to let her know I'm cool with it. If she doesn't tell me but reacts positively to my mistress then that'll work as well since the added excitement of hiding the feelings will likely be a turn on for her.

        Open everything up and just let go. My ultimate goal, honestly, is just to have my wife be able to open up and have something sexually exciting in her life. It hasn't been me so maybe this new thing can open up those locks and throw open the doors. If not, then the ultimate trump card will be played. I gave you every opportunity to adapt and you haven't. I'm going to spend time with my mistress regardless. I'd rather you be involved but if you don't want to, that's fine. I'm going to do it anyways. So this is a very long response to a post that it may not really fit with, but like I said, I need a sounding board and you gentlemen seem like the type that would understand where I'm coming from and give advice that pushed this in the correct direction. I welcome your input.

        [–]SetConsumes 0 points1 point  (2 children)

        Intriguing. Plans like this rarely work out the way you expect, but your general premise may still go through.

        However, you do have oneitis, or else you wouldn't be figuring out how to save what you have with her so indepthly. I'm curious, is she very feminine overall or somewhat masculine too? What gives you the idea of lesbian leanings?

        [–]throwaway13831571 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        She's feminine overall but does have some masculine qualities. No more than any other woman though. The lesbian leanings isn't just me shooting in the dark. There have been signs. Some subtle, some not so much. I've had arguments with her in the past about the lack of sexual connection and in a few of those I had questioned if she was attracted to women. Her reaction was not one of someone that knew the answer was an obvious, "No." Instead her answer was delayed and, "I don't know" was the answer instead. That's the most clear cut reason. Now it could be construed that these were in the heat of the argument and I may have been hitting her with a lot of hard questions causing her brain to reel. But if you're asked point blank, "Are you gay?" and you have to pause and think about it....generally the answer is not, "No." Because if it's "No" it's really fkn easy to say, "No."

        There's that....and there's the normal thing that women do where they check out other women. Perhaps her gaze is just like all other women...just comparing themselves and that's all. But her look is...perhaps a little more suspicious. So that combined with my preceding example is what leads me to believe that there is lesbian leanings within her.

        Sorry for the long winded response.

        [–]SetConsumes 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        I see what you're saying. Women do tend to be demisexual, not have concrete positions about their sexuality, so, there's a good chance you're right.

        [–]Y0gurtDestiny 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        Would love to know how this turns out! I think you're on the right track as far as how to set it up. I can't offer too much in the way of specific situational advice but my one suggestion if this start to turn in the wrong direction is to maintain your frame. If she doesn't go for it or reacts badly, it's important that you don't freak out or get weird - maintain your calm and composure and don't make it a big thing. If it's a big thing for you, it will be for her.

        [–]throwaway13831571 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        The worry that I have is that the setup for all of this is sort of a long con. It's a lot of work and a lot of effort to get it done....but the potential outcome could be quite amazing. The potential pitfalls could be devestating, but no more so than the current situation.

        My mistress...and funny enough...her husband...are both on board. She actually wants to meet for lunch sometime this week to discuss, "battle plans". Perhaps I will comeback and give an update at that point.

        What do you mean maintain frame if she reacts badly?

        [–]sd4c -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

        This has nothing to do with OP's tremendously useful post. Please delete this and put this up in AskTRP instead.

        [–]remyseven -2 points-1 points  (6 children)

        So the underlying text is to be like the Romans and be bisexual. Find a male partner that can share the same love and procreate with women.

        [–]Areu4realm8 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        wtf... you can still love women, but love like an adult, not like a little child who wants to be with mommy forever

        [–]sd4c -1 points0 points  (4 children)

        In no way is this the "underlying text". Gay and bisexual behavior is worse than incel, it's omega male activity. Better to reserve and re-direct one's sexual energy into something constructive, than waste it on non-reproductive partners (dudes, animals, blow-up dolls, whatever)

        [–]remyseven 1 point2 points  (3 children)

        So the roman soldiers were omegas?

        [–]sd4c 0 points1 point  (2 children)

        Don't confuse physical toughness with social dominance. The alphas were all at home banging these men's wives

        [–]remyseven 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        So lifting doesn't always make you a man?