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Rant/VentingCorporateLand: How to Handle Salary Negotiations. (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev

CorporateLand: How to Handle Salary Negotiations.

TL;DR: If you are working in CorporateLand, read this. If you are not, good for you, but read it anyway. This also applies more to moving from one job to the next and less so your first gig, b/c you will have more leverage when you are already a CorporateLand resident. Until then you are basically an illegal alien with no rights.

Note 1: If you are a total noob, like fresh out of school, they may ask about your ‘other offers’ which are, of course, none of their business. Everyone has a pretty good idea how to value fresh talent, or at least what the going rate is for noobs, so you’re not going to have a ton of leverage

Note 2: I was going to write a longer piece on interviewing, generally, but then saw an askTRP question that DEMANDED that I Strike Back in the Name of Justice, immediately, and that reply formed the basis for this piece (which is, to the candidate, the IMPORTANT part of the process, anyway), which I thought I should get out there.

[EDIT1: There isn’t an edit yet, but there will be. I’m good for about 4 each time, b/c I suck at formatting, I suck at adding flair, I want to add pertinent information, or I commit some crime against the English language so heinous that it requires correcting.]

Body:

Once you have established yourself in your first job (note: that’s job, not career. Nobody really has a career anymore), you will eventually decide that the time has come to make more money. Or you’re going to decide that the toxic environment1 at whatever Corporation you are at has become too much for the amount of cheddar they are willing to trade for it. Either way, it’s time for you to at least test the waters and see if you can jump ship. The best time to find a new gig is while you are employed, b/c when you’re unemployed, you might as well have some horrible contagious disease that someone might catch from you b/c that’s how you will be treated.

Nowadays, the best way to not get totally ripped off on salary, once you have outgrown your current position is to bail. It’s that simple. Either take their ‘merit pay increase’ shitty 3% “COLA”2, or pack your bags. If they give you something more than a COLA it probably means that you should have bailed a long time ago. Most people will put up with known “medium shitty” over unknown anything and CorporateLand knows it.

There is always the possibility that you might find a company that does not have its head COMPLETELY up its ass, but that’s not very likely. Forward thinking just isn’t rewarded all that often, b/c of the tyranny of quarterly reporting. Quarterly reporting rewards “Results: Now” and squeezing every bit of value life out of employees, or as they are sometimes called “cost centers”.

Okay, on to Salary Negotiations: Here is one Total Hard and Fast Rule, No Matter What Anyone Tells You:

Never Ever, EVER tell them what you are making now. Never Ever, EVER tell them what you are making now. Never Ever, EVER tell them what you are making now.

Got it? Good. Now repeat that to yourself a thousand million times. If you are asked this in an interview imagine that I am sitting next to you telling you that I will bash you over the head with a fucking sledgehammer until you are dead, thus taking your worthless self out of the gene pool. Then I will piss on your corpse. And I will be right.

Whatever Reason The Give You For ‘Needing’ to Know Your Salary History is Bullshit

How so? First, the motherfuckers you are dealing with have already budgeted for the position and thus, they already know what they’re willing to pay for it. So fuck them, they’re just trying to screw you.

Oh and it’s going to be the people who don’t want to tell you what their proposed salary range is that are the most insistent that you tell them, blah, blah, blah. Fuck them, they are just trying screw you (are you sensing a theme, yet?)

Sometimes you get some story about “managing equity in the department.” In other words, they expect you to be bound by someone else’s shitty negotiating skills, life problems (i.e. the got someone who desperately needed the job, has a shit-ton of alimony or child support, or was otherwise defective). This is NOT YOUR FUCKING PROBLEM! Keeping some simp who took less than he was worth happy is their problem, not yours. Your job is MAXIMIZING your own income so you can pop bottles and bang broads on the weekend.

Another variation is If they give you some bullshit about how “We need it to evaluate your candidacy.” That's bullshit--they are just trying to get you to give away all of your power and let them know how cheaply they can get you. I asked an HR drone how exactly they needed it to evaluate my candidacy? Tell me what they have budgeted for the position and I will evaluate my candidacy for them. What they need to evaluate your candidacy is your resume, an understanding of your talents and accomplishments, and a face to face interview to see if you have a Second Evil Head growing out of your shoulder. That’s it. Oh, and a background check to be sure that by “graduate school” you didn’t mean “prison”. It could happen.

Also, they probably think that your previous employer had your value pegged about right. Why they would think this when they suck at it is beyond me, but I can tell you for sure that HR departments are hardly overflowing with talent. As I said in my initial “CorporateLand” post, they are basically the “Elephants Graveyard” for people with No Fucking Talent.

”But Uncle Vasya,” you say, “What if they ask three times and won’t continue my candidacy if I don’t’ tell them?”

DO NOT TELL THEM. And don’t ask questions that make me look around for my sledgehammer!

Here’s the deal: any place that is this insistent is going to suck to work at. How can I tell? Because even their HR drones suck more than usual. Oh, and here’s another rule: Any place that demands W-2 or 1099 verification is going to suck so bad that they might as well have an “Arbeit Mach Frei” sign over the entryway. They probably will follow you around after hours to see if you’re violating the company’s “no sluts” rule.3

[EDIT2: A commenter who is in HR posted that this is now a compliance thing for government contractors. I've always been a private sector guy, where what I posted is still likely true.]

And don’t give them a range, either. It can work out badly for you in a number of ways.

“Three things can happen and two of them are bad.” -- Maniacal Football Coach and Pugilist Woody Hayes, on the forward pass.

Let’s say you are making $160K (I know, but the numbers are made up and the points don’t matter) comprised of $90K salary and a $70K bonus. Assume that the company where you are applying has budgeted the position you are applying for at $120K-$140K. If you say “I earn a package worth $160K” then you’ve priced yourself out of it (which is probably a good thing, but maybe you’re willing to take a $20K pay cut to get away from your soul-destroying boss, or something. This is just an example to keep the OCD under control). If you say “I earn a salary of $90K not including bonuses and benefits” then you are some loser who isn’t qualified enough for the position, otherwise you’d be making more.

Now, should they ask what your bonus is? Well, this is a trick question, because you never should have told them your base, but the secondary answer is “yes”, but HR is not known for having creative thinkers. It’s known for having “check the box” morons who just want to be done with you and go back to the 9-to-5 coffins.

Now, at some point, you may run into a hot chick in HR. They’re usually very junior and will do things like show you to the conference room where your interview will take place, or fetch coffee for you. They should, of course, be out locking down a man and having babies. What they are doing instead is working in some worthless job, doing nothing of real value, and complaining that they aren’t paid enough. They’ve bought into the “Big Lie” about “GRRL POWER!” and will work that shitty gig until, around 28 or 29, the first stirrings of rebellion escape from their uteruses (uteri? Who cares, the Romans are all dead b/c they fucked up by rotting from within) and lay siege to their brains. Why these chicks don’t figure out sooner that all of the women telling them how wonderful being an “Independent Career Wymyn!” (read: loser) is so awesome are all single, post-Wall, no-man-having Cat Colony Owners is beyond me. But I digress….

How to Handle the “Salary” Question.

As an initial matter, if you are applying anywhere that requires an application (and some corporations are still stuck in the 1950s in this way), leave the “salary history” bit blank, or put a “-“ there. It’s none of their fucking business.

When you get asked in an interview, answer this way:

Once you have decided, I am the right person for the job, I am sure we will arrive at a number with which we are both happy.

Really, this should be the start and the end of it. But it likely won’t be. Nevertheless, you should stick to this position, i.e., that discussing salary is premature at this stage. If they want some comfort, tell them to tell you what they have budgeted for the position, and then you can decide whether it’s worth your while to continue with the process.

Alt (early in the process): "Let's keep an open mind on that for now." If they press, use the line above.

I had someone say to me once, “I understand what you’re trying to do.” “Good,” I thought, “that means you’re not retarded.”

You can also point out that “If you and I were playing poker and I said "Hey, how about you show me your hand, while I keep mine hidden?" would you? I am going to go with “no” on this. And you’d be right.”

Things I Have Actually Said

“I negotiate for a living” [which I do]. “If I actually answered this question, you should disqualify me from further consideration.”

“I am not interviewing for my last/current job; I am interviewing for this job, which has more and different responsibilities.”

“I’m a lawyer…how much do you have?”4

“Do I look like a beautiful blonde with big tits and an ass that tastes like French vanilla ice cream? No? Then why are you trying to fuck me?”5

Good luck. And go learn to be an entrepreneur. I need the consulting fees. If I ever get into consulting, that is.

[EDIT3: I have stuck to negotiation of salary, here. There can be other elements of compensation, of course, but in my biz, the bennies are going to be relatively the same, and I view the raison d'être of my corporate job as funding my lifestyle, i.e. letting me bang bitches and pop bottles on the weekend, or in some exotic locale.

Everywhere has a 401k, I doubt a dental plan would be a difference-maker, and guys getting stock options don't need my help. You can always ask for more time off. That's the only other thing I care about but in my case, I stopped going into the office about 7 years ago, and haven't been fired for it, yet. /shrug. They pretty much let me do what I want, so long as my work gets done. Also, for some folks, titles are important. Since the Phoenicians invented money, there's only one thing I care about in terms of compensation. ]

Footnotes

1 If I were less jaded I would wonder about why fewer leaders, er, excuse me, I meant CEOs do not try leading through something other than fear and terror and why they undervalue employees that would be painful to lose. Then I remember we’re talking about CorporateLand and I drive that hopelessly naïve thought from my head.

2 These are even more awesome when they’re less than the published rate of inflation. Like the government doesn’t lie about the rate of inflation anyway. My personal favorite is “Excluding food and energy costs, the core rate of inflation is…” What do people spend money on again? After housing, it’s food and gas. Maybe something else slips in there, but come the fuck on.

3 I think Ross Perot used to have this done. Didn’t like anyone getting more tail than him, and just have a look at that evil little hobbit. Money only makes up for so much, even if you can put a “B” in front of your “-illions”

4 I actually am a lawyer, by training, although I do different stuff a lot, now. I sometimes describe myself as a “reformed lawyer” or “Mary Magdalene, 2nd phase” although you and I both know that’s not true. Usually people get it and laugh. Sometimes you get a particularly dense drone who doesn’t. Under no circumstances should you say “My lawyer says to ask how much you have” In job interview situations, the slightest innocuous remark, even one intended as humor, will often take on an “IMPORTANCE” vastly disproportionate to its merit, ESPECIALLY if some hugely negative and completely unwarranted inference can be drawn for it. In this case, they will start wondering about whether you will sue the company someday. So not a whisper about lawyer jokes. Except maybe how you’ve hated lawyers ever since you found out that your lawyer was fucking your 2nd ex-wife during the middle of your divorce proceedings. No, save that one for Reddit.

5 Ok, I didn’t say this one. It’s from True Romance. I did, however, say it in a negotiation for a client, years ago, when I was young and impetuous. As soon as we sat down in the meeting, someone from the other side said that “they’d been thinking” (never a good sign) and “they wanted to tweak the deal a little” (ALWAYS a bad sign). They then proposed a rework that took all the benefit away from my client and shifted a lot of the burden to him. I could tell he was going to explode, so I did it for him. For some reason, they weren’t anticipating that we’d freak out when they tried to rip us off, so we actually made it out of the room. They chased us down the hall and to the elevator. I hope that bitch got fired. Oh, whenever someone “thinks about shit” overnight and the next day wants to change 95% of things that are all settled and done? That person invariably has a vagina.

Conclusion Do not ever disclose your salary history, do not ever mention a range, always make them put the first offer on the table and go from there, or I will hunt you down and kill you, and everything you love.


[–]TRPMaidenSlayer 88 points89 points  (31 children)

If you're in corporate land, remember this:

Employees Who Stay In Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

This is serious. My buddies doing BEST in corporateland have bounced around more than those who aren't.

[–][deleted]  (7 children)

[removed]

    [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 11 points12 points  (6 children)

    I'll take mine in cold, hard cash, thanks.

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    The title will give you cold hard cash at not just your next job, but especially your next and next and next job. Considering the pay increases as you go higher and higher, massive lifetime earning increase vs. short-term cash.

    If you go from associate to director, you're now a director for life (if you don't fuck up). Your next job now becomes going from director to senior director (or VP or whatever). For S's and G's: one is going from $60k + no title -> $80k + title. The second is $60k+ title -> $100k + baller title. You're next job/title/salary will be even more baller.

    [–][deleted]  (5 children)

    [deleted]

      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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        [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 10 points11 points  (1 child)

        It would seem to me that anyone leaving a Big4 (unless they are invited to leave) is making a lifestyle choice.

        A buddy of mine has bee a GC for a couple of different biotechs. Prior to that, he worked in BigLaw. He would be gone in the morning before his sons were awake, and return after they were long asleep. His wife would heat up a plate for him and they'd have an hour together before bed. I told him he was basically divorced without having to pay alimony.

        When he jumped to CorporateLand from BigLaw, he told me he thought he was leaving "early" at 6pm, only to discover his was the last car in the lot.

        While getting paid is important, enjoying the "juice of life" is also.

        [–]joh2141 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        That seriously depends and is situational but in most case scenarios, this post is basically there to help the inexperienced through interview process and the salary negotiations; that's it. The things he's talking about for leaving the company after certain amount of time; that's seriously dependent on what company you work for. Not all corporations do that though most will.

        With that said, some corporations even look after that one janitor they had when they started out while some will fire the company's most loyal, longest employed, and most generated revenue just because it "looks" bad on paper for the annual earnings and they need a fresh start.

        Whether or not you should stay, there are more than two sides to that story. I don't think people should just up and leave after specific time. If you are about to get a raise, you probably will know it. Even if it is a raise of like a quarter to a dollar, you will probably know it is coming. Boss just treats you nice and respects you. Talks to you like an equal even though both of you know you aren't in the sense of employer vs employee. No one is saying manhandle your employers and force them to give you a raise or dip. Just know that interactions in the workplace can dictate a lot about how your adult working life will be. If you have changed jobs numerous times but end up being the garbage can that everyone shits on, then you will probably be in that state for a while unless you do some serious changing within yourself.

        This quite shy guy Beta Bob can work 20 hours a day 7 days a week, never made a mistake, very nice guy but socially awkward, a bit annoying, and hunches down probably from staring at the computer too long. Great posture Chad comes in with confident smile. Not as smart as Beta Bob but charismatic, works 10 hours a day, gets along great with everyone including bosses, every girl in the office loves him, the bosses trying to impress him and invite him to parties. One promotion spot at the end of the year. Don't even need to guess. You guys figured out who got the job at "this."

        [–]Senior Contributorcocaine_face 6 points7 points  (3 children)

        Yep. I leave a company every 2 years. Every time I do I get a pay bump. I'm expecting a very large jump with my next job, because growing up in poverty and graduating during a recession make your salary reqs tame. Now I know my value, and the offers coming in are double to triple what I'm making now.

        [–]turn30left 5 points6 points  (1 child)

        What line of work are you in?

        [–]Senior Contributorcocaine_face 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Software development. I taught myself, and worked for smaller companies that paid very little compared to the industry standard. With several years experience under my belt, and a few projects I've made myself under my belt and possibly making the jump to financial tech (if I can...), I'm looking at potentially a lot more money.

        [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (6 children)

        I've heard that contracting/consulting is the way to go because of this. You're switching positions every 6-12 months.

        [–]TRPMaidenSlayer 10 points11 points  (0 children)

        Consulting and contracting are great if you are seriously good at what you can do, and can handle the sales/marketing/networking component when needed.

        Many of the salarymen out there, especially the married ones, aren't willing to take on the risks involved.

        At worst case, are people willing to pay you $1000 for your expertise, even if it takes a week / 40 hours to get that $1000? If so, then you are skilled enough to start.

        If you can't do anything worth a grand, though, then you're not yet ready. I kinda use that as my litmus (note that I do very little contracting since I'm a successful business owner with my own brand and stuff).

        Also, have cash stashed away and be prepared for at least a few months of misery. Slumps happen, but they shouldn't if you're good enough or you're networking and selling often enough.

        Ultimately though, do you want to consult/contract all your life? What is the long-term exit strategy? Just something to think about at some point - but don't let that stop you.

        [–]meatduck12 3 points4 points  (2 children)

        You will face long periods of unemployment though.

        [–]aphraxian 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        Are you honestly saying that a consultant worth his salt wouldn't get a job if he needed?

        Do you know what kind of downgrade it is to take a normal corporate salary job? You get them in an instant.

        You are just uncertain.

        [–]joh2141 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        That's not necessarily true. Every contractor I know do face periods of unemployment. Even the successful well connected ones can go through a drought period. Saying "well you just must have sucked" is a far cry too because you can't control your own cash income. That's the downside of contracting.

        My friend is a contractor and goes through these small spurts when he's starving. But that's because he spent his money on weed over food. In some cases, it is better getting a corporate job especially if you are well connected and getting a nice deal. My friend got a 6 figure salary straight out of college. Of course it helps that his dad used to work in the same company and recently retired after the BoD, staff, CEO did a whole commemorative party for him.

        [–]PlanB_pedofile 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        That's what i do. Same company but held a different job position every 2 or 3 years. I wear so many hats and have keys to so many things.

        I've thought about jumping ship and starting over somewhere else, but that also means starting back at the bottom even though I am in a new position. People at my company have been with us for 20 or more years bouncing from job title to job title. Resume looks great. So many projects, departments, roles, it looks like I've been with multiple companies but really just one.

        Looking back on it, I'm the guy that knows everything from the ground floor up to management because I've worked every rung of the ladder. When security runs my badge they raise an eyebrow at how many buildings it opens and how many systems i have access to.

        [–]simkessy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        That's what I'm striving for. I'm currently trying to get a corp job so I can build up my experience but by the time I'm 27 I want to be independent and just work contracts

        [–]Izzenw 184 points185 points  (32 children)

        Sidebar material.

        They should create a corporate land tag for TRP. It's fundamental for our development as man.

        [–][deleted] 29 points30 points  (1 child)

        There is no more Matrix-like place than CorporateLand.

        "It's gauche to talk about money."

        "Employees should not discuss salaries."

        "I'm here for the mission. It's not about the money."

        "Here is an elaborate review process that will take all year to give you barely a COLA raise, if you are lucky. Please don't ask why some people get promoted outside of this process. Please don't ask why executives are exempt, instead measured against specific metrics and offered specific incentives."

        Its a whole land of plugged-ins who will kill to defend it.

        [–]dvrzero 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        I usually know how much my cohort makes at a company to within $5000. I also know what i've been offered in the past, while just interviewing for fun rather than profit.

        The more an employer wants to bicker over your wages instead of trying to win you over with a better counter-offer to your current company's counter-offer, the more you should ask for. Price yourself out of the job. You gain confidence.

        [–][deleted]  (6 children)

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          [–][deleted]  (4 children)

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            [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

            While it's a good idea to anchor higher than your previous salary, it does present problems. You don't know what they have the authority to offer, so you risk either anchoring too low and selling yourself cheap, or anchoring too high and pricing yourself out of consideration. Changing jobs can easily result in a 50-100% salary increase; you can either try to nail that target, or just have them do it for you.

            Better to let them give the first number and pick it up in counteroffers.

            [–]Hamster_S_Thompson 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            It's highly unlikely that any large corp hr would reveal more than your dates of employment and title.

            [–]SinisterSwindler 9 points10 points  (5 children)

            I'm fucking clueless about employment. Fresh out of university with a bachelor of arts working shitty £7.50 an hour 9-5 jobs. Would be awesome to have a section dedicated to succeeding in that area.

            [–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (1 child)

            read the The Gervais and the 48 laws of power (sidebar)

            [–]coffee_and_lumber 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            And then re-read it. Keep it on your phone and re-read it again when you have free time on the train or in a waiting room or something. Internalizing those principles is more important IMO than learning TRP, as most of TRP is derived from that stuff.

            [–]Endorsed Contributorvandaalen 25 points26 points  (15 children)

            Bullshit.

            Fundamental for your development as a man is to realize that you never ever want to end up in that treadmill in the first place. It's the modern time's assembly line.

            Do your own shit instead and start your own business instead of working overtime to fulfill other people's dreams.

            All that bullshit-propaganda about only being successful when having a traditional carreer is just that: bullshit-propaganda to keep all the beta-chumps (and recently also strong wymyn) occupied and in line to generate wealth for the elites.

            [–][deleted] 20 points21 points  (4 children)

            Caveat: If you own a business, the customer is the boss.

            Its fine to sell your time for money, as long as you recognize that's what you are doing. Its the kool-aid of the company pretending to give a shit about you is what you have to avoid.

            [–]Endorsed Contributorvandaalen 16 points17 points  (1 child)

            If you own a business, the customer is the boss.

            Nah. Not really. You have to make him feel that he is, which is a whole different story.

            In Germany we have a saying which roughly translates to "The customer is the king.", which I like to extend with "On the emperor's territory."

            Its fine to sell your time for money, as long as you recognize that's what you are doing.

            That is different from centering your life around something as abstract as a career just to realize that you wasted most of the time of your visit on this planet while you take your last shit.

            Still once again one would have to ask, why you are doing it as a soldier instead of doing it as a mercenary under your own agenda.

            Most often the answer is some other common misconception: security. Which is just a feeling and not a state as it is mistakenly viewn today.

            [–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

            I'm with you - I'm a consultant, and the difference comes down to mindset. I often fill the role of an employee but I make a lot more because of a perceived lack of job security. The insanity is that by having set contract dates and moving from project to project, I have far more security than the lifer who suddenly finds his job outsourced.

            [–]dvrzero 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            You can fire a customer, and it's liberating.

            [–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (6 children)

            This is a bit idealistic...

            Straight out of college, most people/guys know just about nothing, about what people (the customers) want, or about how to run a business.

            Getting a job is essential for learning, sucking up the knowledge of your more experienced peers, building networks, fishing for ideas and testing them, learning about negotiations and corporate bullshit, establishing your own brand, ...

            Not to mention saving money and gathering capital for the time you actually take the leap of faith and go do your own thing.

            Knowing how to negotiate and keeping your salary raises exponential help both of the above objectives.

            [–]the99percent1 9 points10 points  (0 children)

            Exactly this.. millennial these days that start a business with ZERO working experience is a recipe for disaster.

            Anyways, the best businesses in terms of profitability, effort and time are business to business. If you can make an established business 10% more efficient or increase their profits , and you take a cut of 1%, you are winning.. any business worth a couple million is worth doing this for.

            That's how you make your dosh. For that, you need to have experienced the corporate environment, gained networks and actually figure out solutions to problems.

            [–]Endorsed Contributorvandaalen 8 points9 points  (4 children)

            Straight out of college

            The next thing to realize is that going to college is not mandatory to lead successful (business) life. That's another bug that's been put into your ear.

            In fact today your chances of making some decent money with your own business are probably much better if you choose to do it in construction or craftsmanship.

            You have been told the opposite, because international multicorporate enterprises need people who have been sieved, categorized and gone through standardized training, especially in STEM, and by assuring a constant supply and ideally an overflow, they keep the competition high and the prices low.

            [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children)

            I half agree. I'm a programmer, so yes, I'm not using my college education to earn money. However, finishing a university has opened many doors for me, and I expect it to open many more in the future. It's also a kind of insurance mechanism, if I fail in business, at least I have a good degree to show my next employer.

            The above is true only for good schools, if course.

            [–][deleted]  (1 child)

            [deleted]

              [–]WHY111 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              This is just wishful thinking. The majority of elites in America have attend a select few universities where they make connections with other people who will become elites. It's possible with hard work and luck to become part of the American elite without going to the right school but it's uncommon.

              [–]joh2141 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              You should note that going to college only really "improves" chances of employment but this improvement doesn't guarantee actual employment. Eating a steak every day can seriously increase my chances of heart attack and stroke but I can live up to 100 or die tomorrow. That's what college degrees basically are.

              Now if it is your dream to work where it requires you to go to college, than those are merely stepping stones for you to tread on. Fresh out of college, if you lack any experience, then that is most likely your fault or the society/community you are in has failed to provide you with opportunities (beta statement; go out and look yourself instead of waiting for people to provide for you).

              However, some employers see that if you went through college, you went through some level of obstacles that should warrant in being impressed. IMO, that is utter bullshit and any employer who DOES this probably is a pushover that you can persuade to give you a raise easily or you can take advantage of.

              [–]SirLeepsALot 4 points5 points  (0 children)

              I have plans to start my own surveying business but let's be real. You can't learn everything you need to know without doing the grind for 5 to 10 years out college. You can't even get the licenses for 4 years out of college. In that mean time, it's good to know how to playing the negotiating game.

              [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              I completely agree with this. All of my friends are smart/genius people living in San Francisco, doing amazing things... and they don't know shit about this stuff. I own a business, and advise them sometimes.

              There's a certain population of TRP'ers who have to get over the fact that CorporateLand is a real thing, and isn't beta if you don't want it to be. Nameless, faceless corporations can pay you a fuckload of money, and you can do whatever you negotiate.

              [–]verify_account 24 points25 points  (0 children)

              Excellent post. I really glad you added the part on how to deal with those questions. It's one thing to tell someone what they should do, and it's another to explain how to do it.

              [–]MightyTaint 16 points17 points  (3 children)

              It's nice as hell to see some threads about TRP behavior without it having to do with some 19 year old kid who swallowed the pill last week and wants to know why he still hasn't gotten laid. Looking forward to more from you.

              [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 9 points10 points  (2 children)

              Thx for the positive feedback. I think my next thread is going to be titled "How To Be an Old Guy", but we'll see.

              [–][deleted]  (1 child)

              [deleted]

              [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              And they are the morons earning less lol.

              [–][deleted] 35 points36 points  (17 children)

              HR Manager here, I am really busy and don't have time to go through all of this but I saw this that stuck out.

              Any place that demands W-2 or 1099 verification is going to suck so bad that they might as well have an “Arbeit Mach Frei” sign over the entryway

              I'm not sure if you realize it but many places are federally/state level forced to use these because of their size/federal contractor status. Its not a very good idea to say that all places that "demand" these are going to suck to work for, especially since the government is the one who requires it depending on your size/federal contractor status. I just asked a buddy that works at one of the top 5 tech companies Microsoft and he had to sign one, so its not a good policy to use that to measure a company's quality.

              I'll dive into this more once I am less busy, but I negotiate salaries on a daily basis from the other side. Just skimming through this it looks good but perhaps overly aggressive if followed to the T.

              Edit:

              HR departments are hardly overflowing with talent. As I said in my initial “CorporateLand” post, they are basically the “Elephants Graveyard” for people with No Fucking Talent.

              Can confirm. Currently a 24 year old Army vet with little to no experience in HR (other than being my unit's EEO SGT). I've been here for a year and a half and went from a drone to a manager because of the complete and total incompetence of the entire department. While it certainly is a graveyard, its really easy to beat out a bunch of dead-beats to make yourself look great. I'll leave this job and make almost 40% more in my next just because of all of that.

              Also, the rest of your information about HR is spot on. Fortunately for me, I am creative and am not an idiot so I stand out above and beyond my peers.

              [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 14 points15 points  (12 children)

              I'm not sure if you realize it but many places are federally/state level forced to use these because of their size/federal contractor status.

              I'm a private sector guy, so that's outside of my experience (although it would be useful if you could name the statute/FARS section. I'd be interested in looking it up).

              The only times I've ever seen it were from places that I knew were (a) evil and/or (b) were not to my knowledge federal contractors (one was a real estate company that owned/managed shopping malls).

              [–]cuteman 2 points3 points  (5 children)

              I'm not sure if you realize it but many places are federally/state level forced to use these because of their size/federal contractor status.

              I'm a private sector guy, so that's outside of my experience (although it would be useful if you could name the statute/FARS section. I'd be interested in looking it up).

              The only times I've ever seen it were from places that I knew were (a) evil and/or (b) were not to my knowledge federal contractors (one was a real estate company that owned/managed shopping malls).

              Salesforce used to have on their job descriptions "history of 200k W2s required" for sales reps. They're generally considered one of the best, most mature, huge companies to work for and compensation can be off the charts if executed well in a significant territory and category.

              But it's also a tactic to see how you respond, negotiate, present yourself and what you have to offer.

              Was it more of a hard line requirement or a catalyst to see what those below the 200k threshold who inevitably apply would do to portray their assets in a compelling way?

              [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

              Salesforce used to have on their job descriptions "history of 200k W2s required" for sales reps.

              That makes more sense, for sales reps, although I'd still be wary. I get it that they'd want to know if the guy was a hitter or not, in terms of sales volume, but still possible to get screwed over if the firm a sales guy was leaving undervalued him--which would be an excellent reason to leave.

              [–][deleted]  (2 children)

              [deleted]

                [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

                As most past employers are going to confirm that you were employed there, and what the dates of employment were, I'm not sure a W-2 helps them very much.

                Also, as you note in OP, nowhere did I say "lie", I simply said don't disclose. They can't ding you for lying if you didn't lie, assuming you elect to turn that information over.

                That said, I doubt I'd turn that info over. Twice in my life I've refused to sign an offer letter that had a non-compete in it (lawyers can only agree to non-competes under certain circumstances (e.g. sale of law practice) which didn't apply, and besides, I'm not their slave. Am I not supposed to be able to support myself if I leave? Fuck that.) Once, it cost me the gig. I survived. The second time, they brought me on, anyway.

                Abundance mentality applies to jobs as well as women.

                [–]cuteman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                Every large company I know of uses a background check that asks for at least one 1099/W-2. This has always been after negotiations and I honestly don't know if anyone internal looks at them. But I can't imagine saying no to the background check company would go over well.

                Especially the huge ones like Hire right, something like 35% of the top 100 tech firms use them as a sort of credit reporting bureau for employment background checks.

                [–]cuteman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                Salesforce used to have on their job descriptions "history of 200k W2s required" for sales reps.

                That makes more sense, for sales reps, although I'd still be wary. I get it that they'd want to know if the guy was a hitter or not, in terms of sales volume, but still possible to get screwed over if the firm a sales guy was leaving undervalued him--which would be an excellent reason to leave.

                Browsing their descriptions lately, casually, they seem to have dropped that line item bullet point, but in high earning sales positions I've seen it more than a few times.

                Maybe it's a tactic to cull the herd of applicants, maybe it's a firm minimum and people who earned 195k previously need not apply. Who knows what the hiring manager has in mind if you aren't on the inside. Companies with leverage and high demand positions would be silly not to use it considering the number of applicants and the need to retain the best talent but at the same time, as you said, they could be leaving quite a few candidates off the table and out of the room because they were previously undervalued.

                Lastly, a lot of companies want self starters who will hit the ground running and don't need to ramp up. I could train anyone to be a successful sales person if I had a few years to do so. W2 proof in so many ways is like having a degree, that statistically, that individual will be more likely to succeed than not. The problem is that without productivity it's not generally worth, even the significant expense of hiring someone to keep them beyond 6-12 months if they don't "get it".

                Using the example of salesforce again, if you're a huge company who receives significantly more applicants than available positions you could easily and legitimately demand W2 proof as a jumping off point to reduce it from 100 to 20 candidates per available spot.

                [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children)

                I am also a private sector guy, but our company takes on federal contracts (we are a pest control/chemical distribution company). I'll try and find the status/FARS section, but I am in ATL for a trip so I have limited access.

                [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

                No worries. I am interested, though.

                A lot of the EEO requirements were consolidated within the CFR (which was intended to make compliance easier), but one of the effects was to (unintentionally) broaden the scope of who is a federal (sub)contractor, and so firms with absolutely zero notice are have liability imputed to them. It pays for even a transactional guy like me to keep up with these things.

                [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

                Yea the 2013-2014 executive order (can't remember the number or really anything while on my phone) that changed those definitions I believe also affected the sizes/who has to have those forms in. I think (about 70% sure) that anyone who has the potential at a federal contract or a company size of (no idea the number and don't want to ballpark) must meet certain requirements including these forms. So essentially any industry or company that ever deals with the federal government (most industries) were forced into meeting a bunch of compliance codes (including W-2s, I-9s, EEO data, Veteran status data, and a few other things).

                I came from the Army as an EEO Sgt and was moved into this HR management job being only a year into the civilian side so I am still learning. But I do know that when I was re-making our onboarding process last Jan this is essentially what I found for our 9,500 person company.

                [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                The fucked up thing is, you can be one without even knowing it. There's a case out there where coal vendor sold coal to a utility and the off-take (or a large % of it) was sold to the federal government. The coal company has zero idea about any of this, as far as they're concerned, they're selling to the utility, but they still were held to be a gov't subcontractor. (Might have been the railroad, not the coal company, but either way.)

                [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                Oh yea dude, that is a super common thing. The entire PC/SJW movement is being forced down the throats of companies in the most shady ways possible.

                We just hired a project manager who was an older Asian woman with a disability over two far superior, cheaper and younger white dudes because we have to work on our diversity numbers (yes, she costs 3 times the amount of the two white dudes combined). If people can honestly look at that scenario and be okay with it they are equally as bigoted as Nazis IMO, there is no difference.

                The government wants to control and force companies to behave this way. They are actively, systematically and 100% intentionally belittling people who are ACTUALLY qualified for positions in favor of the feelings and "justice" for the unqualified. Its disgusting. I work with it and see it everyday and sometimes have to swallow my ethics/pride for the job, but holy hell is it terrifying. I am just glad to be on this end of it.

                [–]BradPill 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                Which is why (other) jobs are off-shored. Yet, the unions demand more jobs. They can regulate the country, companies and people - but they can't regulate the market.

                [–]RPMav 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                This information should be provided after the offer is made and accepted, conditional on background checks. So the salary negotiations would be complete at that point right?

                [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                Which information? The W-2 yes, that should be post-offer. However, plenty of companies/people/hiring managers are so confused on the hiring process (both for their company and what is federally mandated) that often times I see people filling these forms pre-offer. One company I saw did the background checks, w-2 and basically everything pre-employment other than the I-9 before the offer was made. I've even had a situation where a hiring manager was giving out their own "custom application" for his office and it included the w-2 (obviously I stopped that).

                I think OP and I were both referencing cases like this and also some jobs used to (I haven't seen it for awhile) have you fill out a w-2 upon application/early in the application process.

                [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                exactly. I work in finance, an extremely regulated industry.

                [–]HumbleEngineer 10 points11 points  (1 child)

                Gold. Fucking gold. Don't get me wrong, I like women and all, but we need more of it. Corporate, social, everything. A man is not (only) made of the women he got.

                If I could I would endorse you.

                [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                Thx for the positive feedback. I appreciate it. I don't have a book or a website and I'm not selling anyone anything (not that I begrudge people who are, I'm just saying), so I'm here just to help other guys.

                [–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (11 children)

                As an initial matter, if you are applying anywhere that requires an application (and some corporations are still stuck in the 1950s in this way), leave the “salary history” bit blank, or put a “-“ there. It’s none of their fucking business.

                Really, this should be the start and the end of it. But it likely won’t be. Nevertheless, you should stick to this position, i.e., that discussing salary is premature at this stage. If they want some comfort, tell them to tell you what they have budgeted for the position, and then you can decide whether it’s worth your while to continue with the process.

                My dad gives me some career advice that I'm gonna parrot. He earns 7-8 figures annually which means both that he seriously knows his shit, but also that he's probably not a typical or representative case. However, the highest earning position that he's ever been outside-hired for was about $500k/year which make him a bit more typical in that respect. He says that he's not shy in salary negotiations about saying what he's earned and wants to earn and when it I graduate and it comes time for me to find a real job, I'm gonna give legit dollar answers and not beat around the bush.

                Maybe if his career goal was to save the whales then it'd be tacky to talk about money but in a Wall ST type job, your employer knows that what you really want is to get paid. Having earned a good amount previously is a kind of preselection and giving a direct answer for what you want to earn and expect to earn will weed out a lot of timewasters—plus, if you hit the right balance of reasonable and bold then they'll respect you for it and that'll have its own rewards. If you're excellent at what you do, then there's always gonna be some job left if you've blown all your good prospects, and you can humbly ask for a meager salary later at whatever safety firm you interview at.

                [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 7 points8 points  (10 children)

                When it I graduate and it comes time for me to find a real job, I'm gonna give legit dollar answers and not beat around the bush.

                One of the things that happened as a result of the explosion of the internet in the 90s was salary transparency at BigLaw. It blew up first year salaries. I think they've come back down to earth since then, but the effect was fantastic (I'm not a firm guy; given how free (and often accurate!) I am with my opinions, I think the over/under on how long I'd last would be ~12 minutes.)

                Where you're coming from (i.e. law graduate/entry level), the landscape pretty much is what it is. It's after that that things begin to vary. (Congrats to your dad, btw, those numbers put him in the .1%; the air--and the customs--are different up on Mount Olympus).

                [–]GarandTheftAvto 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                Hey would you mind if I pm'd you a few questions about your experience as a new lawyer? I'd ask here but would rather not publicly post too many details about my situation.

                [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                Anyone can PM me about anything at any time. If I can help (on a time-available basis) I will

                [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                Was going to say, you're extremely commoditized coming out of college.

                [–]dazed111 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                So that post covers what not to do?

                So how about telling us what to do during negotiations

                [–]midlifedick 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                There are a lot of parallels between red pill and negotiation. If you understand red pill, you are probably a good negotiator. If you are a good negotiator, you may or may not understand red pill.

                The most important things in negotiation; The person that is most willing to walk away holds the most power. Sound familiar? (Don't get Oneitus)

                Now on to negotiation to do's (a lot of this is for corporateland, but principles still apply)

                Preparation. Information is Power.

                The better prepared you are the better your outcome. Find out all you can about the company, the industry, the salary at other places, the interviewer,etc. Google (obviously) but there are other ways to find info. Survey your network. Reach out to your old school placement office for info, even if you are a long forgotten alum, old prof's, anybody that might be able to give some insight. Read company annual reports and press releases on the investor info site. Look for case studies or white papers.

                A lot about a successful interview is about building rapport! Use the information you gather to relate to the person in your interview by recalling or asking a questions about something you found during research and prep. (Building comfort)

                Determine your goals, base it on your desires and your preparation. The more specific and clear the better. (MAP)

                Prioritize those goals. What is more important to you? rank them. Hours, vacation, salary, health care, work environment, stability, challenge, career possibilities, individual growth,...

                NOW DETERMINE YOUR BATNA. Best Alternative to No Agreement. Never accept an offer worse than your BATNA. Think of it as the line in the sand you will not cross, or you plan if you decide not to accept their offer. (abundance mentality)

                Make a list of questions you might get asked. PARTICULARLY questions you do NOT want to be asked. Create answers for all these questions.

                Make a list of questions you have. Probably related to the things you deem important.

                Always get them to present their offer first. (OP explained this pretty well)

                Always try to get them to make the first concession. NEVER make the first large concession. Be stingy with concessions and tie something you want to each or ask for something in return. For example, if you say OK, I can come down 5k on salary, what about an extra week of vacation? Or, if I can start a week earlier, can you raise the signing offer 5k? It is actually good to make small concessions in order to make the other side feel good that they are "doing their job". In order to be able to give the concessions, you need to ask for more than you are willing to accept!

                When you do ask for something, always give a reason. Best is to have a way to back it up with evidence, but even if you can't a frivolous reason will still help. Don't respond too quickly, even if you know your answer. (hamster)

                Don't let them know you are in a weak position, even if you are in a weak position. For example, don't tell them your boss sucks, you hate your job, you are unemployed,etc. They will take advantage of that info, just like if you find out they need to hire someone by the end of the year in order to meet their annual goals. Identify your areas of strength and leverage them. Make it clear what you offer is in demand, unique, scarce and hard to find. (Social Proof, preselection, scarcity)

                Make sure you are taking notes and have documented what has been agreed. As you are coming to an agreement, or even if you have agreed in principle, you can try "nibbling" where you ask for something at the end in order to seal the deal. Don't make it too much or you risk damaging your good will or reputation.

                Double check the written offer reflects what you agreed.

                Crucial components of a negotiation

                1. Planning & Preparation
                2. Setting Goals and Limits
                3. Maintaining Emotional Distance
                4. Communication: Listening and Speaking
                5. Bargaining/Exchange of information
                6. Knowing When and How to Close
                

                [–]mgbkurtz 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                Great article. I was woefully underpaid for years and had a lot of pushback when working with a recruiter for my current position. I learned lesson that the first one to talk salary generally losses.

                [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children)

                Never Ever, EVER tell them what you are making now. Never Ever, EVER tell them what you are making now. Never Ever, EVER tell them what you are making now.

                Ehh, I told them and still got a 50% raise over my last job's salary.

                Whenever I think a job is just out of my range I'm more into negotiating myself down ( I would of been fine with a 20% raise to get the fuck out of my last company ) then not getting the job at all.

                That said it worked out for me.

                Maybe this is a tech thing, but constantly improve YOU. Have apps and shit to show !

                [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 10 points11 points  (1 child)

                Ehh, I told them and still got a 50% raise over my last job's salary.

                Years ago, I was hiring a contract administrator. I asked the top candidate what her current salary was and she told me (which I could tell she didn't really "want" to do, but she wanted to be forthcoming).

                What we were going to pay her was significantly more (not 50% more, but significant). So I told her "Well it looks like you're going to be getting a raise, then", and we didn't adjust the number downwards at all.

                That said, while individual cases may vary, I strongly recommend AGAINST disclosure.

                [–]WellHungMan 6 points7 points  (3 children)

                My general guide line:

                -Know how much people in your line of work and experience level are making.

                -When they ask you how much you want, give a range that is 100% to 120% of what you expect. So if you actually would be happy changing jobs for 100k, say you want 100-120k.

                -Once you have salary negotiated, ask to sweeten the deal with things like management courses etc.

                [–]Borsao66 6 points7 points  (2 children)

                Once you have salary negotiated, ask to sweeten the deal with things like management courses etc.

                THIS

                Negotiating is more than just money. I've added shit like trade shows (CeBit and Comdex - showing my age here), gym memberships, management courses, college tuition, etc, etc.

                [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                Ask for more vacation. You're more likely to get it when they really want you.

                IME, things like tuition reimbursement are based on company-wide policy, and things like CLE (as an example; I need it to keep my law licenses current) should be included in any decent package, anyway.

                [–]rpscrote 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                yup I negotiated in complete coverage for all my CLEs as a bonus, which adds up to ~2k a year I dont have to pay.

                I love taking the same route as you, being explicit in that I am a negotiator and thus if I told you my previous salary you shouldn't hire me. Can't really argue with that.

                [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (2 children)

                Awesome as always Uncle Vasya.

                Though...got an idea. Wouldn't Career err..i mean... job-related stuff be easier to find if they have their own flair?

                (Still studying in college atm but i know i'll be able to use this in the future)

                [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                Wouldn't Career err..i mean... job-related stuff be easier to find if they have their own flair?

                A capital idea....although I would probably still suck at flair.

                [–][deleted]  (12 children)

                [deleted]

                [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 11 points12 points  (1 child)

                Because people sometimes misconstrue "exaggerate" for "lie", and lying gets you into trouble. You say "exaggerate", and I might agree with you--in general I expect people to puff their salaries for obvious reasons and I neither blame them nor think it's a big deal; if the firm is willing to pay "X" for them, then fine. But for other people, even the line b/w black and white isn't gray.

                To me, asking a candidate what their current salary is is a lot like asking a girl what her N-count is. Do you really expect an honest answer?

                If they find out later that what you told them, shall we say, was not entirely accurate, they might ding you after an offer has been extended. We've never bounced a guy (to my knowledge) for puffing his salary, but we've dinged guys who have fudged employers/references. That's why I go with non-disclosure and negotiation based on the job under discussion. It helps to avoid drama later.

                [–]evoblade 1 point2 points  (5 children)

                If you exaggerate and somehow they find out. You're done. No offer. Period. If they find out after the hire you might be fired.

                My company canned a dude for saying he had a degree that he did not complete. He was at something like 108/120 credits so he didn't have it. Close, but no diploma. A degree was not a requirement for the job, but he put it on his resume. If he had been truthful up front he would still have gotten the job and could have finished the degree (or not) at his leisure.

                Omit, obfuscate, and evade all you want, but lying is a big gamble. also feel free to use "total compensation" in the place of base salary if you are talking numbers and they aren't specific. At least you can gracefully back out of that one, claiming you didn't understand what they were asking for.

                [–][deleted]  (4 children)

                [deleted]

                  [–]evoblade 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                  All true.

                  Don't discount the possibility that they might demand to see your w2 after negotiations are complete (for any number of BS reasons).

                  My point was more: think twice before inflating a verifiable number. You can say you were the most valuable x, but that is opinion.

                  [–]rurpe 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                  Salary is a very tricky verification

                  companies can and will ask for past w2 forms

                  [–]foldpak111 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  What really needs to be explained are the steps you took to be making that kind of dough.

                  [–]MinisterOf 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                  Why would you?

                  The hiring company has already set a range for the potential salary they'll pay. All they need your salary info for is to give them more leverage. Why would you? They won't tell you their range, so you can't know how low or high your number is, exaggerated or not.

                  If your number is too low they'll lowball an offer. If it's way too high (above their upper bound)... that's not necessarily to your benefit either, since they could think you'll be unhappy and likely to leave at the first opportunity. Plus, as others have pointed out, if they find out you're lying it's can have negative effects.

                  [–]AaronKClark 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                  I worked in the corporate world for 17 years. Everything about this post is 100% true.

                  [–]Lord_NShYH 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                  As someone who has been a Director at a company, I can tell you that all of this advice is gold.

                  [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                  [deleted]

                  [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                  How common it is will be a function of demand (i.e. how sought after one's skill set is) and location (six figure salaries are going to be more common in NYC than, Cleveland, one imagines, based on cost of living).

                  I should add that a six figure salary used to be a big deal in terms of relative earning power; now, not so much.

                  It is really that common to have a >100k job in USA for young professionals?

                  something like 15%-20% of people make $100+ (based on an informal search I did on the web, i.e. I looked up what Wikipedia had to say). Of those people, many will have reached that salary after years of experience. Others will work a shit-ton of overtime and be in a strong union. So not necessarily "common" but possible.

                  Do you know where I can get information about salaries of the petroleum industry?

                  I would have to refer you to my Research Associate, Dr. Google, for an answer on that.

                  [–]taw127 4 points5 points  (2 children)

                  I am so glad I read this last night!

                  I just had a first-call with a recruiter and he ended the entire conversation with the salary question.

                  Honestly the first thing that popped into my mind was the True Romance quote, the second thing was sledgehammer, and I had to struggle to hold in my chuckles as I said "I think that's a conversation for a later stage once you've evaluated how much I'm worth and I've decided what I would accept for the position."

                  Good post, man. Good post.

                  [–]174pounder 7 points8 points  (2 children)

                  Now, at some point, you may run into a hot chick in HR.

                  This chapter is completely worthless. I'd remove it to improve the focus of the piece.

                  Source: I've edited books.

                  [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  That's the problem with gonzo writing. I try to keep things organized for the reader, but sometimes, I digress....

                  [–][deleted]  (5 children)

                  [deleted]

                  [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                  I'll be moving on here shortly if they don't catch me up soon.

                  Exactly.

                  It came down to "we won't hire you with this information".

                  I've walked on other terms (non-compete) before. If you disclose, that's up to you. Sometimes, guys need a job, so the choice may be take it or leave it.

                  [–]rurpe 5 points6 points  (3 children)

                  My boss was capped at how much she could give me and it was tied to my previous salary.

                  There was never a cap. A cap is "no more than $75,000" not "a little bit more than he made at his last job". Tying future salary to past salary is a negotiation tactic and a huge cost saver for companies.

                  [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                  [deleted]

                    [–]arrayay 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                    If you we able to add on top of the cap then you should be able to see that there never really was a cap.

                    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (6 children)

                    I admire your aggressive approach but keep in mind there are elite banks ( think global investment banks) that have compensation committees pore over your last four years history before constructing an offer letter.

                    There is no way around it sometimes. They demand your W2 and proof of deferred comp before making you whole.

                    [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                    I admire your aggressive approach but keep in mind there are elite banks

                    I worked for a division of one and never had that problem, although, in fairness, I was working for a company that they acquired so DNA to me, no doubt.

                    That said, my post was of a "generally applicable" nature, and the Goldman Guys likely don't need my help, anyway.

                    [–]1mrust 0 points1 point  (4 children)

                    A bit more in the same vein, these large corporations will have salary bands that lay out the exact range of pay applicable to your given rating. Note that I did not say position.

                    You can have the same position - same job, same responsibilities, but if you can move up a level there is an automatic increase in pay. Conversely if you don't move up a level, there is a cap. The same applies to contractors, though they will call these rate bands instead of salary bands.

                    If your hiring manager is smart they will just bump up your meaningless title - director, vp, senior douchebag, global head of whatever to bring your salary into line with the money that you negotiate out of them.

                    There are ways around these bands but they have guidelines for everything. e.g. they will need three levels of management signoff to bump your pay above their band limit etc... You better be able to demonstrate you are hot shit or have someone who really needs you pulling for you.

                    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

                    Exactly, sayin I wont tell my compensation!....naive

                    [–]1mrust 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                    Nah I think it's great advice. Any book on negotiation will tell you that it's in your interest to make them cough up the first number.

                    If they ask you outright, tell them you don't disclose that information.

                    If they actallly require proof and payslips tell them that can be deferred until after the negotiations are complete.

                    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                    Many places that works fine. Try that at blue chip law firm or investment bank. Not possible

                    [–]1mrust 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    I work at a tier 1 investment bank. Advice still applies.

                    [–]fadetoblack1004 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                    I just inflate the number and make it clear that I am disappointed in my current job and will leave one way or another. I usually get decent offers, but nothing good enough to compensate me for the lost PTO since nobody will give me what I get now (22 days + 7 holidays). And yes, I use all of it. Fuck your employer, not using your PTO is stupid.

                    [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                    not using your PTO is stupid.

                    Yep. I use every damn day of it, and I can mostly do what I want anyway.

                    [–]turn30left 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                    This post motivates me to try to find another career. I'm an air traffic controller with the FAA and my current pay is around $140k/year with guaranteed minimum 1.6% in raises yearly. The last several years it's been 2.6%. The benefits and time off are great, and the job security is next to none. Aside from this skill, I have very little experience in any other field, but I am highly motivated by money. I want to make more in another field, but I just don't know how.

                    [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    I knew a guy who was an ATC. From what I understand it is incredibly high stress. Maybe things have changed since he was there (technology making things easier, etc.)

                    Keep going on it while you make your plans and save like a motherfucker so you have a war chest.

                    [–]midlifedick 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                    *reposting as a top level instead of a reply

                    There are a lot of parallels between red pill and negotiation. If you understand red pill, you are probably a good negotiator. If you are a good negotiator, you may or may not understand red pill.

                    The most important things in negotiation; The person that is most willing to walk away holds the most power. Sound familiar? (Don't get Oneitus)

                    Now on to negotiation to do's (a lot of this is for corporateland, but principles still apply)

                    Preparation. Information is Power.

                    The better prepared you are the better your outcome. Find out all you can about the company, the industry, the salary at other places, the interviewer,etc. Google (obviously) but there are other ways to find info. Survey your network. Reach out to your old school placement office for info, even if you are a long forgotten alum, old prof's, anybody that might be able to give some insight. Read company annual reports and press releases on the investor info site. Look for case studies or white papers.

                    A lot about a successful interview is about building rapport! Use the information you gather to relate to the person in your interview by recalling or asking a questions about something you found during research and prep. (Building comfort)

                    Determine your goals, base it on your desires and your preparation. The more specific and clear the better. (MAP)

                    Prioritize those goals. What is more important to you? rank them. Hours, vacation, salary, health care, work environment, stability, challenge, career possibilities, individual growth,...

                    NOW DETERMINE YOUR BATNA. Best Alternative to No Agreement. Never accept an offer worse than your BATNA. Think of it as the line in the sand you will not cross, or you plan if you decide not to accept their offer. (abundance mentality)

                    Make a list of questions you might get asked. PARTICULARLY questions you do NOT want to be asked. Create answers for all these questions.

                    Make a list of questions you have. Probably related to the things you deem important.

                    Always get them to present their offer first. (OP explained this pretty well)

                    Always try to get them to make the first concession. NEVER make the first large concession. Be stingy with concessions and tie something you want to each or ask for something in return. For example, if you say OK, I can come down 5k on salary, what about an extra week of vacation? Or, if I can start a week earlier, can you raise the signing offer 5k? It is actually good to make small concessions in order to make the other side feel good that they are "doing their job". In order to be able to give the concessions, you need to ask for more than you are willing to accept!

                    When you do ask for something, always give a reason. Best is to have a way to back it up with evidence, but even if you can't a frivolous reason will still help. Don't respond too quickly, even if you know your answer. (hamster)

                    Don't let them know you are in a weak position, even if you are in a weak position. For example, don't tell them your boss sucks, you hate your job, you are unemployed,etc. They will take advantage of that info, just like if you find out they need to hire someone by the end of the year in order to meet their annual goals. Identify your areas of strength and leverage them. Make it clear what you offer is in demand, unique, scarce and hard to find. (Social Proof, preselection, scarcity)

                    Make sure you are taking notes and have documented what has been agreed. As you are coming to an agreement, or even if you have agreed in principle, you can try "nibbling" where you ask for something at the end in order to seal the deal. Don't make it too much or you risk damaging your good will or reputation.

                    Double check the written offer reflects what you agreed.

                    Crucial components of a negotiation

                    1. Planning & Preparation
                    2. Setting Goals and Limits
                    3. Maintaining Emotional Distance
                    4. Communication: Listening and Speaking
                    5. Bargaining/Exchange of information
                    6. Knowing When and How to Close

                    [–]Evileddie13 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    That's a really cool insight. From what I have gathered, from being in the trades for two years, it's just the opposite of everything you said. As in, "My last salary was $27 an hour If you want me to work for you I want $36, an hour, truck, a gas card, and your secretary to blow me once a week." That be said, I'm the equivalent of a corporate drone. Just a worker bee. It would be different if I had been a Project manager for a while looking to move to a bigger company. This is definitely Sidebar material. Great post.

                    [–]Batou_Red 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    Thanks for the specific things to say when negotiating. These things can be delicate.

                    [–]ECoast_Man 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    First ballot post. I completely agree with all of this (fellow initiated dark lord of the law).

                    I would like to hear your thoughts on internal salary negotiation. I say this for a couple reasons, most importantly it is very different than outside. However, I am about to do it myself.

                    I have the number one rule down - I have a significant BATNA, and I intend to use that as leverage. That's a risky move, to disclose a headhunter interest, but I'm willing to do it.

                    Thoughts, maybe another post? Good stuff.

                    [–]TheDarkTriad 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    Amazing post. I wish I'd have known this before taking my first corporate job a few months ago. Oh well, they're at least paying me the going rate for my position so I can't complain much. I'll just do a diagonal move in a year anyway and make more. The place I'm at is fucking crazy but I'm making decent money and it will help a lot when making my next diagonal move.

                    Thanks again for posting and keep the career related posts coming.

                    [–]backbayguy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    I expect to be paid according to the roles and responsibilities of the job.

                    [–]buttyanger 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    As a recovering/reformed attorney can confirm. It's all a shit test. This man speaks the truth. Never tell them what you made.

                    [–]joh2141 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    Ironic because HR originally came into existence to improve employee satisfaction of working and helps average workers by protecting them from unfair bosses. Which technically still happens to this day... but honestly is so rare that HR basically ends up hurting more than doing any good. And you're right, 99% of people in HR are talentless or was simply lazy.

                    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                    [deleted]

                    [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    My source material for all of my posts is my own, meandering experience. This is what worked for me. YMMV, etc.

                    Is this going to be a series?

                    Who knows? The feedback I got from my first "CorporateLand" post led me to believe that there was enough interest in the subject matter, and my views on it, for there to be another post and if I put "CorporateLand" in the title, it makes it easier to search on later.

                    Bear in mind that this post had its genesis in a question on askTRP specific to "should I disclose my current salary" etc., so if it seems over-focused on that, that's why. I had planned on doing a more general post on "How to Interview in CorporateLand", but I may or may not. I think the interest here would be for guys just getting out, and I haven't gone through that particular process in 2+ plus decades, so when I get around to it, it's going to be the view from the hire side.

                    [–]buckfitchesgetmoney 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    Absolutely fantastic post. There are other areas I'd add like "asking for an out of band raise because you are working 60 hour weeks and the company is fucked without you" as well as using offers from other companies to drive up your current salary if you are happy with you current job. Obviously don't want to do this too much but it's very effective if you are talented

                    [–]Eppur_Si_Muove_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    This is such an awesome post, thank you so much.

                    While this is important for the corporate workers here it is invaluable advice for ANY man in almost any career.

                    [–]bigcitytruth 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    Another note -- more than likely the HR person will be a woman. Use that to your advantage.

                    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    This was a great read. Having a side bar for this would be good. Knowing your job worth is important for your skill set (aka don't get an arts & crafts major, go do STEM/business and have a plan)

                    [–]TragicApostrophe 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    Read this one too. Great stuff sir.

                    [–]Endorsed ContributorThotwrecker 3 points4 points  (2 children)

                    I'm 24 so my experience is limited, but my experience has been to just BS your current salary intelligently. My first job out of college I worked for a high tier startup and didn't negotiate very well because to me 120k a year plus all these perks was crazy. I realized I could have pushed it to about 130k, maybe 140k as I had really solid internship experience too. So when I hopped after a 1.5 years, I just said my salary was 140k, which was believable for my role. They came in at 155k plus a signing bonus, unlimited vacation, and top perks. If I hop in a year or two, I would probably just exaggerate my salary to 165k and negotiate for 175k.

                    Is there some danger to this that in my inexperience I'm missing? Everyone says "you'll get caught" but generally if the negotiations go well and you both reach a number you can both be happy with, why would they then request your paystubs and such from your past employer?

                    [–]RedDeadlift 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    I don't think there's much danger there. This is similar to what I've done for awhile (I'm 31 now). You're not over-inflating, just a bit. When I've given a number in the past (after this post, I will be hesitant to give it in the future), I usually include bonuses, ESPP, 401k match, plus at least a $10k extra buffer or more to arrive at a number that I would actually leave my current job for. I put a value on other perks like international travel and vacation as well to bump up the number more. I know it's a bit of mental gymnastics, but it's worked for me so far.

                    [–]Lord_Vats 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                    Excellent work Vasiliy!
                    This is definitely sidebar material.
                    However, OP you should've classified it as "Off Topic" or maybe "Red Pill Example" rather than a "Rant".
                    This thread most assuredly is not a rant.

                    [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                    Perhaps I should have dropped a few more F-bombs.

                    [–]blacwidonsfw 1 point2 points  (4 children)

                    Actually going to disagree with a point. For example, at Google they create a standard offer package (without knowing your current salary) that they are willing to dish out for that position. When they ask your current salary, they compare the standard to your current and if they want you, they will adjust accordingly. It's against their policy to ever offer below the standard package.

                    So effectively if you do not give them your current salary, you will only get their standard and never get a better offer than that. For companies that operate like this, your advice is ignorant of the actual hiring process.

                    Source: from one of the ex directors of Google recruiting via a quora answer I prob can't link here but if you search negotiating at Google then it will come up on quora.

                    [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

                    First, companies like Google are unicorns.

                    Second, my advice is general in nature, and may well be worth what you paid for it (free, on the internet), so there's that.

                    [–]blacwidonsfw 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                    No I totally agree that is the general way to do negotiations.

                    However, I would recommend anyone who is in negotiations to research glass door, quora, and other sites for that specific employer and find firsthand experiences of people that went though the process as every company philosophy when coming to recruiting is different.

                    [–]1Jaereth 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    For example, at Google they

                    This is an extreme outlier and not in anyway representative of how most company's do hiring business.

                    [–]evoblade 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    If you are making a lot more and they offer you less, I'm pretty sure your previous salary would come into discussion at that point, and they would make another offer if they wanted you.

                    [–]RedVillain 0 points1 point  (3 children)

                    The bit about salary negotiation is tricky. While I'm still relatively new in my field, it's still an employers market. We've brought in 4 people to interview to help me in my department in the last 2 weeks. I've heard my boss say things like "I don't like that guys face and hair". " This girl just sounds like she's going to be hard to work with" etc. I feel like playing hardball on negotiating salary would just raise a red flag and hinder an opportunity, if they're so nitpicky to begin with. Just some thoughts.

                    [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                    I've heard my boss say things like "I don't like that guys face and hair". " This girl just sounds like she's going to be hard to work with" etc.

                    We had a woman interview for a gig earlier in the year that she would have been great at. When I went to inquire about her with HR (I needed a copy of her interview schedule for that day, or something innocuous) the HR chicks went off on her choice of footwear for the interview.

                    We wound up not bringing her on, but whatever the reason was, it wasn't "Wore strappy sandals to the interview".

                    I feel like playing hardball on negotiating salary would just raise a red flag and hinder an opportunity, if they're so nitpicky to begin with. Just some thoughts.

                    That's fine. My advice may well be worth what you paid for it. I just try to help where I can, and, well, I've been pretty successful, so I must know something.

                    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    I feel like playing hardball on negotiating salary would just raise a red flag

                    You have to power talk during the negotiation. not straight talk

                    [–]F_Dingo 0 points1 point  (3 children)

                    I'm going to be done with college (accounting) in 2 yrs, should I bother negotiating salary on my first "real" job or wait until I jump ship to the second?

                    [–]Endorsed Contributorbicepsblastingstud 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                    Why on earth would you "not bother?" Do you hate money?

                    [–]evoblade 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    Yes. Do your research and be prepared with what you should expect. Don't pay hardball if you playing with a weak hand.

                    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    If you've been fired or you've quit from a job, should you still put it on your resume? How much info can they really find out about you? I worked for a company for 18 months but walked out one day. I have to put that job on my application as it's my longest and most "respected" position. But I worry if HR knows what really happened? Anybody know what HR can really find out? Thanks!

                    [–]RPIreland 0 points1 point  (3 children)

                    Say you are currently making 100k, you are interviewing for a position in a new higher COL city where your adjusted salary would equal about 115k so you set your sights on a salary of 130k. In this hypothetical situation 130k is a very good salary for someone with your experience in that City and industry. You are currently happy in your current company but want the change for more money and a better city i.e. you don't HAVE to move.

                    Now what is wrong here in saying I currently make 100k? They will come with an offer of 110k and I would have no problem in bluntly saying that 110k is not enough and lay out the numbers I said above......"115k would only cover the COL increase and I am not desperate to move so you would need to make a very good offer closer to 130k for me to consider leaving"?

                    Is it because they could have budgeted 140k for the role which you could have gotten but now you definitely won't get? In my scenario above if you have done your research you should have a fair idea of what they will pay and you will know what you are willing to accept so I would be happy enough to cut through the bullshit in the negotiation and get the figure that I wanted.

                    [–]rurpe 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                    The hiring manager's job is to hire the best people for the least amount of money possible. He doesn't give a fuck about your bills or cost of living. And honestly all of this explaining and justification just makes you look weak. If you want 130k, ask for 130k and then walk if they balk.

                    [–]RPIreland 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                    That is what I mean though. If I know the number I want then why do I need to do anything like concealing my current salary. In this situation my number is x and I don't HAVE to leave, you can give me x or I will just stay where I am. (Or look somewhere else)

                    [–]rurpe 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    because they will use your current salary against you as bargaining point and you want to avoid giving them this point.

                    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    I have a different experience, I always tell them what I'm making..... (raised $10-15k higher than my actual current salary) and tell them I'm looking to 'at least match or increase'.

                    I think IT companies at least are much more willing to match your current salary. Ive always gotten what I asked for when I tell them I'm already making that salary.

                    Ive been able to do this every 3 years or so.

                    [–]sumdumbullshit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    I'd like to add in some stuff here on a more base level.

                    In negotiations the first person to suggest a price usually loses. This is because information asymmetry ultimately favors the person with the most info. So if you give information first, you have usually lost. Usually the first one to speak creates an anchor that doesn't get better for them.

                    Example A: Company willing to pay $100K. You just left $80K, know you can get $90K, but don't want to be greedy so you suggest $88K. Company will settle with you somewhere between $85-$90K, depending on style, and you just left $10K+ on the table and you had no idea.

                    Example B: Company knows they are willing to offer $100K and offers $90K knowing nothing else. Anchor set and now you have the power to move it up (unless you are a moron). Maybe you are happy with the $90K and that is fine, but most companies don't come at you with their best offer barring some other previous communication. You should test those waters, but either way, failing to provide the information already improved your position because they were too afraid to lowball you.

                    Though I'd add that this is not entry level position bargaining. If you have no resume you have little power other than competing offers. Sure you can gamble, but I wouldn't be aggressive with it until the resume favors you more than it favors them.

                    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                    Really wish you'd posted this a week ago.. Before I fucked myself out of salary negotiations.

                    [–]rurpe 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    next time you have an important event in your life, try googling to see if you can get some advice. There are MILLIONS of articles on this subject that all basically say the same thing.

                    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    I'm glad I work for a company that actively encourages us to move from department to department. I get to renegotiate my salary each time, and I'm looking at moving to a different department every 2 years. I should have general partner locked down in little over a decade.

                    [–]unbreakable0013 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    Can anyone tell me how this works when you're going from interning with a company to being offered at the same company? I'm about to enter negotiations with the current company I'm at after interning for 6 months. I'm fresh out of the pen (college), so this would be my first corporate job.

                    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                    [deleted]

                    [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                    another thing that is important is either a) not doing shit that makes you tied down to a location or a job b) in the event you do that shit, you hide it.

                    Back when I was a bachelor (which I still am) who had a month-to-month lease (no longer) I would make sure I mentioned that.

                    [–]curiousthis 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                    The corollary to this is if you get a call from a recruiter, the first question you should be asking them is "how much does the position pay?"

                    [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    You can certainly be more up front about it. Headhunters get paid when they make a placement, so it's much better for them to weed out mismatches earlier in the process. Asking about salary is definitely part of the initial conversation when a headhunter calls. They're likely going to ask you what you're making, and I don't tell them, either. However, as they rep multiple employers and positions, I would tell them that you're interested in jobs with a salary range of "X to Y", and, if there are other limitations such as you don't ever want to work in [the South, The North, California, Texas, whatever], then they won't (if they're smart) waste your time and theirs presenting you with positions that don't fit.

                    Remember, though, the headhunter gets paid by the employer, so assume that anything you tell them gets passed along.

                    [–]lazzatron 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                    Got a question.

                    I live in a country where it is necessary to disclose my salary (it's always in the job application). I guess I'm SOL when it comes to negotiating?

                    [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    Even even if I knew the country, without knowing local customs, I couldn't tell you. Could you not put "Negotiable" in the salary slot, or would that wreak havoc somehow? Alternatively, you could interview with more than one firm and play them off against each other.

                    [–]simkessy 0 points1 point  (4 children)

                    I met a recruiter who wanted me to interview with a company. He asked me what my range was and I said in the 60's but I was flexible. Following that conversation, he set up the interview with the company and I've had two so far and now they just want my references and they'll put out an offer. I'm assuming I already fucked up by telling the recruiter what I was looking for?

                    [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                    I'm assuming I already fucked up by telling the recruiter what I was looking for?

                    There is the school of thought that says if you get what you wanted, you should be happy. I belong to the school of thought that says, 100% is good, 125% is better (when it comes to cash, anyway).

                    They may well make an offer based on their salary band, which might (or might not) be higher. So perhaps you left something on the table, perhaps not. Don't second guess yourself and chalk it up to a learning experience.

                    [–]simkessy 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                    Fair enough. I'm not too attached to this position anyways so I feel more comfortable negotiating with them.

                    [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    Abundance mentality. Excellent.

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