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Red Pill TheoryNever confront her -- Betas don't get to set boundaries (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by TRP VanguardArchwinger

From time to time, we come across the writing of a passive, loser, “beta” man, in the process of attempting to reclaim his manhood and his power in a relationship (or possibly attempting to claim this for the first time ever). His story usually goes something like, “My girlfriend is doing [insert shitty behavior here] but I finally put my foot down and told her to stop this or I’m gone. She apologized. It felt good confronting her and setting a boundary like that. You guys should follow my alpha manly man red pill example!”

On one hand, we want to encourage the guy. He’s made great progress. He recognizes shitty behavior in his woman. He knows that this behavior is a sign that she doesn’t respect him or the relationship and that he has no power in the relationship. He knows that he shouldn’t have to tolerate this bad behavior and that continuing to put up with it is costing him additional power and respect. He knows he needs to stop tolerating this. I don’t want to minimize these steps. They’re important steps. Men who have taken these steps are leaps and bounds ahead of most loser men.

But then guys like this go and fuck things up. They confront their women and attempt to set a boundary. Because they read somewhere on The Red Pill that setting boundaries is an alpha manly man Red Pill thing to do.

The problem is that betas don’t set boundaries. Women ignore the boundaries of a beta. They laugh at them inside. They think it’s amusing when a little beta loser tries to tell them to do or refrain from doing something. A beta loser man has not earned the right to act like an alpha winner man and speak to her that way – to presume to command her submission like that.

When a loser tells his woman to do or refrain from doing something, the woman will do one of three things: 1) Dump his ass because she doesn’t care about him; 2) Ignore his request (and maybe even tell him she’s ignoring it), which is a shit-test she is using to demonstrate that she has the power in the relationship, not him; 3) Manipulate him – apologize, pretend she cares about the relationship so she can keep benefiting from it, then just do a better job of hiding her bad behavior from him in the future.

The one thing a woman doesn’t do when a beta loser man asks her to do something is submit. Whining that you want your woman to do or refrain from doing something and threatening to leave if she doesn’t obey does not make her suddenly recognize that you’re a real manly man that she’s afraid to lose, hence her apparent capitulation and obedience. If things get to the point where you have to deliver ultimatums, and your woman appears to submit to your ultimatum, you didn’t win. All you did is tell her where she needs to improve her skills and do a better job of lying and hiding her bad behavior.

If you’re a Red Pill newbie, or even a guy who’s been reading this shit for years but still doesn’t have complete control over his relationship, be honest. You know who you are. It’s not shameful – you’re still leaps and bounds ahead of the huge majority of men. In fact, acknowledging where you’re lacking and need to improve is a sign of strength, not weakness.

But now that you know where you’re lacking, don’t try to command your woman like some kind of boundary-enforcing alpha manly man when you haven’t earned that right. It doesn’t work. Before your woman demonstrates her respect for you by submitting to your boundaries, you need to actually be respectable.

If your woman is doing shitty behavior, don’t talk to her about it. She’ll either dump you, ignore you, or pretend to care while hiding her ongoing shitty behavior. Instead, you have two options:

1- Ignore her and work on yourself. Become emotionally less available to her. Still escalate and go for sex frequently, but pull away if you don’t get laid and go do something else. Hit the gym. Get buff. Excel at work. Get rich. Throw yourself into learning new skills and interesting hobbies. Get out there and make friends and do fun shit. Build an awesome life without her. You only bring her along for the ride if that escalation starts leading to getting laid like a champ. Otherwise, she stays home and you have a fun life without her tagging along.

2- Leave her. Having no woman is better than having a shitty woman. And it shows that you respect yourself far more than she respects you. After doing this, do #1 and find a better girl. But leave that other girl, too, the moment she’s shitty.

When you become a respectable man with an awesome life, you’ll find that women tend to behave themselves without you having to confront them and set boundaries. And on the rare occasions when you need to tell them to get in line, they’re quick to do so for fear of losing you to one of the ten other women waiting in line to fuck you.

Just remember: If you’re a work in progress, you don’t get to overtly set boundaries. That’s not a tool in your toolbox. Confrontation is a tool of women, not men, and if you have to use a woman’s tool against a woman, all you’re telling her is what buttons she can press in the future to really upset you, or what she needs to do a better job of hiding. Why would you arm a woman with that kind of weapon?

Be sure to check out The Red Pill's off-Reddit site for this and other content. Here's a link


[–]RedditAdminsSuck_88 166 points167 points  (32 children)

This is why I cringe at field reports posted by TRP newbies.

The field report usually is along the lines of "Hey TRP, I am so thankful for you. I was a beta 12 hours ago and my oneitis kept rejecting me. But I stumbled on here and skimmed a couple sidebar posts, and then I applied it to my oneitis, and now she is showing me IOIs and we are going to hang out later. Thanks TRP!"

Great, the thing is, you are still a beta. You may have applied a principle or two and had a positive effect, but in the macro sense, you are still a beta and have a shitload of work to do. You might have won a battle, but you are losing the war. Going from beta to alpha is a long, winding process, and if you have gone too far down the beta hole with a woman, chances are you aren't getting out.

I have a good memory so I recognize users I help in AskTRP. There was one guy who I gave advice to. He said he had a date with a girl who he asked out on Facebook. I asked him why he didn't ask her out in person and he hamstered away his reasons, basically, they were all excuses because he is a coward. I told him that she probably views him as a coward and a beta because of this, and this is probably a pity date and she will not put out or go on a 2nd one. He told me to fuck off and said I was bitter and butt hurt and that he knows what he is doing.

He deletes that post and a couple days later posts that she didn't put out for him and did not want to go on a 2nd date and why this was. Thinking no one would remember or see his post from 2 days ago. He summarized his date and it was sad to read. Lots of beta behavior, hours of talking, little escalation. Basically being an emotional tampon. I told him that I remembered his post from a couple days ago and that I told him in that post what was going to happen and why. He ends up deleting that post too.

Moral of the story: Just because you are winning a battle or two doesn't mean you are winning the war. Just because you got an IOI or she agreed to hang out with you doesn't mean you are out of beta territory. If you are getting too much satisfaction out of winning single battles, you are a beta. Winning battles should happen naturally and be expected, you shouldn't have to fight them. They should just happen because the woman respects you. If they aren't, either you are a beta or the woman is a piece of shit.

[–][deleted] 82 points83 points  (21 children)

If peoples initial field reports aren't cringy (with progress) then they are either lying, or faking it.

You should be able to look back a year ago and get a laugh out of reading them. Takes a good killing of ones ego to write about their failings without regard to their reputation

[–]RedditAdminsSuck_88 30 points31 points  (20 children)

No doubt about it, when I do read field reports, its easy to tell when the author is embellishing, exaggerating or flat out lying.

An honest field report author won't be afraid to put their mistakes and failures in their posts. If its a post full of 100% success and win, its probably bullshit.

When I do private consultations, the person will be telling me about trying to game this HB8/9, and then they will show me a pic of her and she is never an actual 8/9, more like a 4/5. So on TRP I automatically subtract 2-3 points from the user's stated HB rating unless I know they are a reputable TRP poster.

[–]p00pey 14 points15 points  (3 children)

internet in a nutshell. I don't believe a fucking thing someone shares about their personal life, here or elsewhere. Doesn't mean it's all lies or embellishments, I just start from a position of non belief. Still some of the fiction plays a role in teaching, which I appreciate...

[–]RedditAdminsSuck_88 14 points15 points  (2 children)

I completely agree. At the same time, if you are on TRP(which makes self improvement a core principle) you are doing yourself and other men no good by lying or embellishing. You'll get the best advice/points across to others by telling the truth.

This sub isn't a dick measuring contest. The users here owe it to themselves and other men who are coming here looking to improve to be honest and truthful.

What do you have to gain by telling others here you banged an HB9 when she is really an HB5? Nothing. Even worse if you are hamstering an IRL HB5 up to an HB8/9. You are only hurting yourself by lowering the bar and lowering your standards.

[–]p00pey 22 points23 points  (1 child)

Human nature bro. Human fucking nature. The internet, which I believe to be the greatest invention of the last 500 years, has turned into 50% pr0n, 50% need for validation. While women are worse, I know plenty of faggots that need constant validation. Dudes that can't go 90 seconds without checking facebook on their phone. That breed of man will inevitably come here and tell lies. I mean some of the posts here are straight up baitposts. Ridiculous stories made up so the RP crowd goes nuts with the AWALT nonsense. If you read carefully, you can tell there are at least 10 points in the story that invalidate it. SO part of the bullshit is the attention the crowd here will give to those bullshiters. Because there are too many insecure fucks here that get validation by providing validation. YES AWALT, I CAN RELATE! shut the fuck up faggot...

[–]ChrisBenRoy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A large amount of FR's that aren't made by sponsored contributors are basically nothing but "look how alpha I am" self masturbatory, Penthouse forum stories. Worthless.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (14 children)

Care to share examples of what you view as an 8 or 9 and a 4 or 5? I'm curious to see where my own standards for the HB scale are with respect to other posters here.

[–]corsega 20 points21 points  (12 children)

This scale is decent.

[–]1Goomich 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I didn't even knew that below 5 exists

[–]dareealmvp 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I don't know but I always have felt that I can't do a girl with a beautiful face but flat chested. To me, a petite girl with a face of an HB5/6 with big tits (I'm talking at least D cups) and a big ass (though I can to some extent do without it) is more or less an HB8/9. A beautiful face adds only one point on the scale of attractiveness for me.

If I tried doing a flat chested girl even if she has the face of Adriana Lima (or however beautiful her face you can imagine) I'd not even be able to get a boner because I'd feel like I was fucking a guy with a vagina. Big tits are paramount for attracting me, they are literally the be-all end-all for me.

[–]IDefyAxioms 1 point2 points  (6 children)

I wish that a similar guide existed, but for guys. I've always wondered where I fall on the scale. I know it's incredibly low, but I want to have a definitive answer.

[–]dareealmvp 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Looks (other than skin color) only define very little of your SMV. Your height and your skin color are deciding factors in your SMV as far as the unchangeable part of your SMV is concerned. And then there's your chest width, how much of muscle you are, your body language and all that usual alpha stuff.

[–]askerman97 0 points1 point  (4 children)

There was a guide for guys of the EXACT same format maker.

[–]IDefyAxioms 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Think I found one. Looks like I'm about a 3.5. Yay me.

[–]Red_SL4 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Now get that to a good seven.

[–]IDefyAxioms 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It will require a lot of plastic surgery for sure, but it can be done.

[–]33a5t 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Who made this? The descriptors are fair but the pictures aren't representative at all.

[–]corsega 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Someone on reddit. I agree some of the photos could be a little better.

6th and 7th girls in the 6 category are a 5 for me.

7th girl in the 7 category is a 5 or a 6.

3rd girl in the 8 category is a 7.

[–]RedditAdminsSuck_88 2 points3 points  (0 children)

8s and 9s should be upper tier women and rare.

The so called HB8/9 these guys were referring to were average at best and nothing special. I could walk into any bar on a Friday night and immediately spot 25 women hotter within 15 seconds than these so called 8/9s.

A good example of an 8 from my point of view would be JJ from Criminal Minds or Christina from Flip or Flop or Maria LaRosa from The Weather Channel

A good example of a 9 would be Allie LaForce(CBS sports sideline reporter)

In my world 4s and 5s are women I would not fuck. So average women on the non-fuckable side. A 6 is an average woman on the fuckable side.

[–]gjs628 22 points23 points  (1 child)

I have yet to ask something myself, despite being here only a few months, because every question I wonder about has already been asked and answered in the past by other people.

I feel that people, especially betas, think they're above the rules that apply to 'normal people'. They're disagreeable, they're always right, they ask questions and ignore the answers just to go off and do whatever idiotic thing they were going to do anyway. Oh, and then they blame you when it doesn't work out, because it can't possibly be their own autism that's at fault.

"No, it won't take me many months of hard work to become an Alpha god - I can do it in 2 days. No, I don't need to hit the gym that often - I lifted my 2kg weights twice yesterday and I'm feeling pretty buff already. I even watched a YouTube video made by that Rolla Tomato guy, so I'm pretty confident I can bed M'lady in under 3 minutes by being a bad boy! Wish me luck, M'Redpill. tips fedora

... OMG TRP I did everything you said, I told her she was a slut and wrote 12 paragraphs in a Facebook e-mail on how I was going to make love to her anus with my massive 2" phallus and now she blocked me! I even waited outside her house and spat in her face like you said I should, you know, just being Alpha and all that, and she maced me! This Red Pill stuff DOESN'T WORK, you're all just full of it! I'm gonna go back to respecting my dearest Princess Pedestal and explaining to her how much better I am than the jock she's dating. And paying for her lunch. And rubbing her feet while she's giving her boyfriend a blowjob. SCREW YOU ALL! refuses to tip fedora because I'm just that bad"

[–]RedditAdminsSuck_88 22 points23 points  (0 children)

We live in a society of instant gratification.

A good chunk of people, specifically betas, who stumble onto TRP are looking for the quick fix. The short cut. Most people who come here are down on their luck.

It's why so many people can't save or invest money, they have to spend it. They don't just spend all the money they have, they go into debt to spend money they don't have. Saving and investing is best in the long run and will make you wealthier, but it takes discpline and patience, and many people just can't do it.

You have two types of impatience on TRP, one type rooted in oneitis and the other rooted in a dry spell.

They want a quick fix to woo their oneitis, or a quick fix to end their dry spell. So when you tell them to lift, eat right, lose weight, read, work on approaching, max out your SMV, get your life in order, etc. they don't want to hear it. Because all of that takes time, patience, and discpline. It takes a while before results are seen, specifically the results they want to see(wooing oneitis or ending dry spell).

I have a good memory. I can keep mental tabs on usernames I have given advice to in AskTRP and through private consultations. I'd say a lot of my advice gets rejected or hamstered away and they decide they know best. And a lot of these users will make a follow up post outlining why their way didn't end up working. I post in the the thread that I told you what would happen if you did your way and not my way. And instead of going "Hey, you know, this guy was 100% right last time, maybe I should listen to him this time", they almost always hamster even faster and double down on rejecting my advice and going their own way.

You can't help them. You can only hope they hit rock bottom and perhaps see the light one day.

[–]Luckyluke23 2 points3 points  (2 children)

people don't want to put the work in man. this is prof of that. it's like " i won THE battle so there for i won the war"

people forget there are many battles in life. game and TRP are a life long journey

[–]Ou-tis 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes,it's a life change what a "loser" man need.Like a fat man,if he do a 1 month diet,he will obtain no steady results. But they need to understand that if you make mistake during your improving,it's ok.Because if you try something new,it's impossible make everything 100% correct a(and at some point,who cares to do 100 %the right thing). They think that if they don't try,they will not fail and they still can blame everyone and everythin but not themsevels. I am a newbie in game and every step I do lead me to an uncharted situation.And it's ok,because I need to learn and nobody cares if I ruin a date,because plenty of woman and life centered on myself.

[–]ronsoness 1 point2 points  (2 children)

this sounds more of being a mature, wise man vs a young man. i remember when i was young and i and other guys thought getting a number was a success. nope. a girl can ignore you or it's useless if you don't know what you're doing.

also, damn man, that guy you helped... way to bite the hand that feeds him :.

[–]RedditAdminsSuck_88 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Yes, a lot of men need to be careful. A girl giving you her number is not necessarily an IOI. It's validation for them. They give you the number, and will use the guy blowing up her phone later as leverage in some way. I.E. hanging out with girlfriends "OMG my phone is blowing up, so many guys are talking to me!" or with another guy she is trying to make jealous "OMG this guy is talking to me". They also could just be giving it out to be nice and plan on ignoring you.

Getting the number is only the beginning. Continue to work a little game on them afterward and excite them, so they are anticipating your eventual call/text. Don't end with getting the number. Then, when you have the number, cut to the damn chase. Don't text "Hey its <guy you met>, what's up". Go straight for the logistics. "Hey, its <guy you met> come join me at the bar tonight"

[–]Talkytalktalk 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A true beta. Too weak to ever acknowledge being wrong.sad

[–]p3n1x 37 points38 points  (0 children)

Leave her. Having no woman is better than having a shitty woman.

AMEN!

A lot of dudes 'believe' they can put up with large amounts of shit and are still "chill" cuz they are getting that pussy. Don't play with a chick that doesn't truly want your time. You will NOT win. Let that egotistical shit go.

Water can take millions of years to wear down a mountain to a pebble. Women employ the same "slow blade" tactics. They are better at it, because they are more passionate about behaving that way.

[–]NeoreactionSafe 87 points88 points  (14 children)

Just remember: If you’re a work in progress, you don’t get to overtly set boundaries.

 

Very often if you came to the Red Pill while suffering greatly as a Blue Pill beta you are already in a relationship where you are in the "lower" position.

Trying to retroactively position yourself from beta to Alpha (from "lower" to "higher") will not work because she remembers your old position.

Most likely you have to dump this one and start fresh on the next one.

Game means controlling perception and she will never forget.

 

Start from scratch.

 

[–]TRP VanguardArchwinger[S] 34 points35 points  (0 children)

Yeah. Really, it's just a question of whether you soft next her or hard next her. You either pull away and build your own life, where you unavoidably meet other women (and probably start fucking them since unlike your shitty girlfriend, they actually want your dick), thus downgrading your girlfriend to plate. Or you cut contact entirely and go put those balls you just reclaimed to better use.

[–]Endorsed ContributorMeat-on-the-table 32 points33 points  (2 children)

Too many men try to use this place to find a way to finally get their oneitis, instead of getting over their oneitis I firmly believe,like you said, that if you're in a relationship where you don't have the upper hand, you really shouldn't try to salvage it.

Move on. Get a new woman for the new you.

[–]Unholy_VI 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I used to be on the tao of badass (more like tao of beta fags) a few years ago. It was truly pathetic but I was in such a bad place at the time it helped a little.

The thing I remember the most was every single person who joined and went to the forums to ask for advice their post always started 'There's this one girl' And I'm like I don't even need to hear the rest. There is not 'this one girl' there is a world full of girls. Get your nose out of 'this one girl's ass' and maybe you'll get somewhere.

But yeah most people come to any kind of PUA or game advice looking for the magic button to push or text to send to go from zero to hero with 'this one girl' then quit when they realize it just involves a lot of work and letting go of the ridiculously bad ideas you have about how to get women to fuck you.

Tao of badass just tries to monetize it by selling pathetic guys just enough to make them think they're getting someplace while continuing to reinforce some of the really bad ideas that stop them from moving forward.

[–]Kwantuum 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I mean I came across PUA stuff when I was younger trying to seduce my oneitis, and though getting over her wasn't was I was looking for it's what ended up happening because I realized that the situation as it was was way too fucked to spawn a healthy relationship. I realized I was not worth a speck of dirt on the sexual marketplace. After working on myself and stopping to give her all the attention she wanted and more, she's now the one who's trying to get into my pants, and it's not happening because as I was growing a backbone, I grew standards.

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (1 child)

It works. Same as there is the "flipping the light switch" when a girl rewrites the narrative, guys can do the same. Tons of endorsed guys have done just that. bluepillprofessor comes to mind.

It's a borderline counter of rollos 7th iron rule, but it happens. Having said that, it's not easy, involves a meltdown on the girls end (e.g. main event) and isn't usually worth the effort (e.g. ex_addict_bro)

Though it's like Arch says. a soft next, build up a new man, and she gets the fuck on with the program before you're gone. the professors got with the program, ex_addicts didn't even have a chance.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Shit's getting flipped all the time. It's fucking weird, man.

And in that spectrum, it just tells me do whatever the fuck I want. The end result will be better for me and the best possible outcome I could achieve for my children.

So then the only question is what kind of bullshit am I willing to put up with before I decide to be gone.

[–]OpenBumChakra 17 points18 points  (0 children)

she remembers your old position.

Used TRP gainz to go fuck some bitch I orbited. Sex is alright, and she acts shitty.

The new women I meet don't remember me as a beta fag, and fall in line effortlessly. Sex is better, more giving, etc.

Fuck all those old broads. New ones way better. And the real mind fuck is when you realize the old ones are rather indifferent to you because you "liked" them so much, and the new ones like you so much because you're rather indifferent to them. Loooool

[–]1PantsonFire1234 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Which is funny when you realize that most men begin at the 'higher' position. So their very quick to forget his initial dominance and label him 'lower'. But to ever regard him as higher again would be blasphemy. How could she ever see him for something he actually was.

That's just what happens in relationships, they get stale. Some faster than others. But usually when it happens there's no going back.

[–]NeoreactionSafe 4 points5 points  (3 children)

If the guy enters "higher" and slips up slightly he's more likely to get back on top again with a little effort.

When the post-Wall woman marries the clueless Beta for his Bucks she begins the relationship with a low opinion of him.

That guy is Blue Pill and likely hurting.

But if he comes here and understands "why" it won't do much good because she will always see him as the tragic choice she was forced into.

 

[–]1PantsonFire1234 0 points1 point  (0 children)

maybe but the effort it would take to reclaim previous footing is almost never worth it. also the more damaged women do this by default. read about overvaluing and devaluing in narcissistic/bpd women.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Yep, my clueless beta ass got in a fight with my wife when we were on our honeymoon because she didn't want to have sex. We got married at around 28...Fuck. And it didn't change until I found TRP 8 years later.

But like she god damned said yesterday, I don't believe you because of the last 8 years.

[–]NeoreactionSafe 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Once you surrender control it's hard to gain it back.

Masculine polarity must be a constant.

 

[–]askerman97 0 points1 point  (1 child)

But what about other male friends who knew me as a beta?

[–]NeoreactionSafe 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Unless you are fucking them I doubt there will be a problem.

 

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[removed]

[–]Endorsed ContributorMeat-on-the-table 34 points35 points  (12 children)

There was post the other day about MGTOWs and their demands for marriage. While I'll reserve my opinion on MGTOW as a whole, the one fundamental you always have to remember is that women simply don't care about betas.

If you're not at your best or working toward it, a woman has no regard for you or your opinion. You're too low, and she's the wolf who doesn't care about the sheep's opinion in this instance.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (5 children)

Exactly. Women loathe betas. I can't tell you how many passive aggressive shame posts I've seen on Facebook from married women about their beta husbands not cleaning windows, fishing too much or being at work. And it never ends with just one post, which tells me the beta did not put his foot down. It's just one of many examples, digital equivalent of beta hubby getting yelled at at a grocery store.

[–]saibot83 4 points5 points  (4 children)

My mom in a nutshell. Everytime my dad goes to play golf, she sulks. "He better not play anymore golf this week or I'll be angry. He ought to do this, this, or this around the house instead" He ignores that and plays golf whenever he goddamn feels like it. He worked tirelessly for 40 years supporting two kids way longer than actually required. Let the man play golf for pete's sake.

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[deleted]

    [–]saibot83 1 point2 points  (2 children)

    You'd think so. It is what it is.

    [–]BPasFuck 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    It's because the narrative has been "He is beta and beneath me" for way too long for a simple move to correct it.

    He can't just go golfing whenever he feels like it, and expect it to make things better.

    He's got to set her ass on fire in some way. Or life has to present her with some kind of a crisis-- she has to recognize on some level that she isn't shit without him.

    Going off to play golf, and ignoring her demands isn't enough to accomplish that.

    My father isn't redpill by any stretch of the imagination. He gets some shit right, but blows it all the time. But one thing I'll never forget is the time he course-corrected her when she started acting like she was going to stop cooking.

    "Then what the fuck good are you?" With that, he put her on notice that he wasn't going to keep putting up with her bullshit, if she wasn't going to be giving him some kind of a return.

    She cooks every day, on schedule.

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    My Dad had a temper and had very little patience for Mom's BS. I thought that that was wrong for a very long time. It wasn't. His greatest hit: "if you don't like it, you can gtfo." She never did. Glad your old man put his foot down. He should do it more and she'll probably be the happiest wife in a long time.

    [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (5 children)

    Most mgtows bring nothing to the table. Most of them are dad bods who wear wrangler jeans and white new balance sneakers. They're very "basic" dudes who's cultural tastes are limited to xbox live and simon malls.

    While one of these dudes might be a MGTOW with standards and demands, 100 other dudes are in line with flowers and free dinners for that HB4 he had oneitis for who wouldn't stop fucking around with all his friends.

    True MGTOWs are alpha males who live by their own standard of happiness. They get laid whenever they want and are a standard grade of dude that is well above average, so by proxy most women he dates will respect his wishes.

    Only losers try to negotiate sexuality. Winners respect themselves and are not concerned with whether a woman respects him or not, because he can just dump her and get a new one. Since winners are high quality men, they'll have their pick of the litter and can most likely find a woman just as good, if not better.

    [–]Unholy_VI -1 points0 points  (3 children)

    People can downvote all they want MGTOW's are huge manginas who can't accept the world as it is and come up with a way to thrive and succeed in it.

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]RedPillRedemption 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      It is, indeed, a social change movement, rather than TRP that is self improvement. I can respect that.

      [–]Unholy_VI -1 points0 points  (0 children)

      I don't want to argue about Manginas Getting Tired Of Wanking. Not getting married and not spending time and money on women that aren't putting out is redpill 101. But so is becoming successful in life and with women.

      The MGTOW stuff...there's a forum for it. I don't bother them there.

      [–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (1 child)

      A boundary is nothing if it isn't reinforced by consequence. Sometimes it can be something as simple as a stern look. Other times, it requires full on dread.

      You calmly and quietly express what the dos and don't are early in the relationship. If your woman respects you she'll abide by your wishes.

      If not, well then you know where you stand. Guys always make it out to be some grand mystery not knowing where they stand - but if you have been there and done that - the shit isn't a grand mystery anymore

      When you are just dating a woman its an easy decision - hard next. When you have no ties you just laugh heartily and fuck some other bitch.

      When you co-habitate in an LTR it becomes more complex. Now you have domicile laws and the like to contend with. You might have to break or wait out a lease - maybe even deal with DV accusations if shit gets real sideways on you.

      Lets have a real world example to illustrate what Arch is talking about.

      My brother some years ago met this little bisexual freak with bright blue eyes and jet black hair. She rocked his fucking world in the sheets and he was floating on cloud 9.

      She played the role excellently - doted on him being all submissive on his arm then after dark fucked his brains out with exuberance. He thought was solidly in control because she acted in every way like a woman who falls in line behind a boyfriend she loves and respects (I witnessed it).

      They decide to move in with each other, my brother lays out nearly three grand to get into a decent apartment. She's a broke bitch so her contribution to the move in is negligible - not to mention her credit is shit too. So without my brother she would have never gotten into this place - which she really loved (you see where this is going).

      After a month or so her cousin (female) all of a sudden is in dire straights and she begs my brother to temporarily let her stay there because she has no place to go. Its a two bedroom spot so he (stupidly) agrees.

      As soon as the cousin moves in shit changes dramatically. The head games come fast and furiously. He's getting the daylights shit-tested out of him. This lasts a month and by then my brother is having hard time dealing. He's a good hearted guy and he really liked this girl and now that its falling to shit he's taking it hard. Being sufficiently softened up and emotionally vulnerable, she decides to drop the bomb on him. They have a talk and she informs him that she doesn't think things are working out so he should move out.

      He calls me up drunk and heartbroken telling me how fucked he is and how he has to find another place and shit.

      I'm like She did what? There's no fucking way you're moving out. She expected him to leave and lose his move in costs.

      Make a long story short I tell him how he's getting played and he needs to man the fuck up - it was quite the conversation.

      His self pity turns to anger. Next day he puts a deadbolt on the master bedroom door and dumps her shit out into the living room. She comes home from work and discovers he's not moving out - he's finishing out the lease and then they can go their separate ways. Since he fronted the move in cost - he gets the master. She's on the lease - he can't force her out and he doesn't care about the cousin. Also - now rent/bills are split in 3rds (even though the two girls now split a bedroom).

      Sometimes the line between alpha and beta gets a little thin and its just a matter of mindset - sometimes it takes much more work. Also, everything isn't always black and white.

      After it dawned on my brother that she was trying to work him over to get into a nice apartment - and it was all a game he went cold and became ruthless. He brought girls home all the time - and after telling them a little about his fucked up situation they usually made sure they were nice and loud during sex so that his roommates heard. You know how cunty women like being.

      The funniest part about the whole deal is she'd knock on his door after being drunk in the middle of the night and he banged her out a few more times - even after he had brought women in and out of there - but she never moved back into the room. When the lease was up - he informed the management company that he was moving out and would no longer be on the lease. He was refunded most of the security deposit and went on his way. The two girls tried to stay, but couldn't because they didn't have sufficient credit.

      This was maybe 8-10 years ago. The girl is now 35ish - single - never been married - no kids. Still looks halfway decent - I'm thinking most of TRP would probably bang her if the opportunity presented itself. My brother sees her out all the time - she knows he drives an Audi - owns his own house and is doing very well. She approaches him with sad eyes and asks him how he's doing. He doesn't give her time of day.

      Funny thing is how she tried to play him when she thought he was an easy mark. When she found out he wasn't a chump and he starting banging chicks out in the next room - then she really actually wanted him. By then it was too late because he already saw her true self.

      People will always judge you based upon how you treat yourself. If you have the self respect enough to stand up to people (especially game playing women) you will get respect. If you let people walk on you - nobody will respect you - especially women.

      I will say this though - I don't know if u/archwinger is married on not. Are you dude? I forget. I'm thinking you're not. But when you get married that gives women leverage and they start getting all kinds of bold. I don't know a husband out there that doesn't endure a power struggle on some level - at least in the beginning. If you're a married man - you WILL be putting your foot down. If you don't you'll get run over in most cases. Women seem to think marriage entitles them to act like bosses. You got to nip that fucking shit in the bud. After a little while, if you are doing shit right things settle down into their correct roles.

      Sometimes I forget most of these guys on here are 18-30 and are dealing with millennial psycho chicks. Gen X women were easier to deal with by far. A young fickle hottie is still a tricky thing in any generation - but these millennials are straight up the worst. They have heads filled with 3rd wave garbage.

      [–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

      "People will always judge you based on how you treat yourself"

      Sidebar material

      [–]aanarchist 29 points30 points  (5 children)

      if she breaks the boundaries, next. don't talk to her, don't tell her what she did wrong, just leave and let some other idiot deal with her.

      [–]Godtiermasturbator 8 points9 points  (1 child)

      Yep. Too much beta in the comments. This is the only reaction.

      [–]aanarchist 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      thanks betas. THANKS BETAS. ur fuckin betaness is what got me into this mess, fookin betas.

      [–]samenrofringslikeLBJ 1 point2 points  (2 children)

      Thats how women behave, I wouldnt say immediate nexting is required, but you are completely right in that its not in any way shape or form beneficial to educate a woman on proper behaviour. You are not her parent or teacher, only Betas think its their responsibility to fix a girl.

      When a girl is acting poorly, I find that a complete change of subject or action works great. For example, you guys are hanging out watching a movie and she starts texting/fb/insta, just go ahead and do something else or switch channels or whatever, but dont be pissed, be neutral. I have never had a bad reaction to this, they end up confused and insecure and do whatever to get your attention back.

      [–]aanarchist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      the only time you should be willing to deal with it is if she's actually listening to what you're telling her and understanding at a rate that is acceptable to you. i'm happy to train her into a good person i can be proud to be with, if she wants, but it's a favor i'm doing for her, not the other way around.

      that's so petty how she wants to "test you", like talk about extreme social anxiety, speak up woman stop being so damn scared of everything.

      [–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (2 children)

      Everything you said is true but I think its actually ok for a newbie to try some shit out on his shitty relationship.

      Practice makes perfect and if he has to start somewhere than why not an expiring relationship?

      [–]RobertCarraway 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      When he tries turning that ship around it will give him a sense for how important it is not to fuck it up the next time.

      [–]LaRedPill 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      That's what I did, started a new relationship... now I cohabitate, she passed every fucking test I did to her. Lets see how long is my turn.

      [–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns 10 points11 points  (2 children)

      Leave her. Having no woman is better than having a shitty woman.

      I feel like this applies to 99% of the relationship questions asked on TRP.

      [–]Independent0 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      feel like this applies to 99%

      I feel I sometimes get myself into a situation with plates where now and then some will shine better than others. I will be contemplating whether they are gf material but realise that they aren't. These are the usually like 8+ and if it's an easy bang I'll just put up with some shitty behaviour to continue. Is that beta?

      [–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Depends on how hot the girl is, and how much shitty behavior you have to put up with. Don't think of it as pure "alpha vs beta", take it on a case-by-case basis. If the girl's a 9 and she shows up 20 minutes late to whatever, no big deal, you probably give her a pass (at least the first time, if it becomes a habit that's something else). If she's an 8 and she blows you off entirely one evening, maybe that's a soft next for 7 to 10 days. If she's a 7 and she makes some sort of snide, obnoxious remark disrespecting you in front of all your friends, that's a hard (permanent) next.

      Generally speaking, the girl (plate) needs to be adding more to your life than she is subtracting from it. If you're not coming out net positive, drop her and move on.

      [–]playdontpay 48 points49 points  (9 children)

      The best way I have found to handle the boundaries issue is as follows. I wait until the girl questions me on our "relationship" status as they all inevitably do at some point. She will ask some variation of "what is this?, what are we? What are you looking for? Are you seeing other girls? Etc. I reply with the following " It's kinda hard for me to find girls to date, as I have standards of behaviour and respect a girl needs demonstrate before I will consider that, I'm not going to say what they are, because the girl I'm looking for already knows how to be a lady so I don't have to tell her".

      Then I ask " Do you think you're the kind of girl I'm looking for? ".

      What almost always follows is a torrent of hyper snowflaking about how she is in fact such a girl etc. I then ask to see her phone. Girl "why?". Me "well we have had enough dates for you to be asking me about a relationship, so I just need to know if you have any hook up apps on your phone as that's a no no for anyone I'd want to be with!".

      As you can probably guess the few that don't are happy to show you, the rest will refuse and explain it was from last year and they don't use it anymore etc etc. I generally sit back with a shit eating grin at this point, because now you know if you are dealing with a plate or a potential GF.

      The girls now know you have boundaries and demand respect, but apart from not being on tinder etc, you haven't explicated what they are, girls know what shitty behaviour is, they don't need to be told and if they really want to be with you they will behave accordingly. Sure you will still get shit tests, but they will be massively reduced and they won't be if the nuclear flirting with another guy in front of you type. Just my 2 cents!

      [–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (1 child)

      I really like the phone move. Savage vetting right there.

      [–]saibot83 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      I was seeing this girl waaay back. I pretended to take her phone one night when we were chilling in bed. She panicked. I knew then and there. It later turned out that yup... she was an überslut.

      [–]hores 10 points11 points  (5 children)

      Next level screening, I will have to steal this for the future.

      [–]playdontpay 10 points11 points  (4 children)

      You are both welcome, I don't do this right off the bat, but obviously after she has snowflaked and qualified herself to you because she is pushing for commitment, well she shouldn't have a problem proving she's not a tinderella considering she has just told you how special and virtuous she is.

      [–]Independent0 1 point2 points  (3 children)

      What if she asks to see your phone too?

      [–]saibot83 9 points10 points  (0 children)

      Just show her. Preselection works in your favor. I've shown girls explicit sexts from other girls and they couldn't wait to jump my bones shortly thereafter.

      [–]Man_from_Poland 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      <shitty story about great key and fault lock> :D

      [–]playdontpay 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Not a problem for me I don't do online dating anymore as got fed up meeting chicks with photos 25lbs/looks 5 years older.

      I only spin 2-3 plates max anyway and I can find these in real life where I can see what I'm getting.

      For online dating etc why not get a "naughty phone" just for this? Then you can show her your clean phone if you want to appear as if you don't run online game!

      [–]grewapair 8 points9 points  (0 children)

      I've nexted a few women for treating me badly. Two things:

      I never missed them half as much as I thought I would.

      I felt sorry for the next guy they dated.

      Yes, it's not easy to find someone who is giving you regular sex. But it's always worth walking away.

      [–]scamper_22 9 points10 points  (0 children)

      Yeop. Another way to think about it is that for the most part, most people know what 'good' behavior is.

      If there is a person of respect or authority in the room, people's behavior changes. They don't need to direct or tell you what to do. You already know what to do.

      Maybe a flawed example, but you're driving on the highway and you see a cop car. You, like everybody else slows down to drive the speed limit or less. Everyone's behavior goes up a notch. The police officer might not even be a speed trap or be enforcing traffic law. He could just be passing through. But everyone adjusts and drives how they 'should' be driving.

      That is respect right there. It is fear as well, but hopefully you get the point.

      Or if there's a very respectable person in the room. Suddenly your profanity drops and you start speaking in a more appropriate fashion. You're not even going to 'shit-test' the person by trying to swear and see if they set you straight.

      That said, life is a journey. I would hope no one thinks they're suddenly king of the jungle after just setting a boundary. But I mean, people need to grow and that's a good step to try out. It is not a formula. It is good to read, but it is also good to try things out. Never dismiss progress or think you're at your destination.

      I went from twisting myself inside out about a girls behavior to trying to tell her about it or we're done. To knowing that she knows what is right and if I was respectable, she would have done the right thing in the first place. I don't know I would be comfortable here without trying to set boundaries first and seeing how it did not work out well.

      [–]1favours_of_the_moon 19 points20 points  (1 child)

      Having no woman is better than having a shitty woman.

      Having no headache is better than having a shitty headache.

      [–]sd4c 5 points6 points  (3 children)

      Great advice, solid article. The tough part is ignoring her/soft nexting her when you cohabitate. Which is probably why Rollo wrote Iron Rule #4.

      [–]sd4c 7 points8 points  (2 children)

      Iron Rule of Tomassi #4 NEVER under any circumstance live with a woman you aren’t married to or are not planning to marry in within 6 months.

      From: https://therationalmale.com/2011/10/06/shacking-up/

      [–]sd4c 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      I would add that spending more than four nights a week together is "de facto" shacking up, no matter if it's your place or hers.

      [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

      Minor addendum. If you are an alpha and are enforcing boundaries with your LTR (monogamous or otherwise), this should be something that has to occur infrequently. Like quarterly, not weekly. Discussions about the nature of the relationship should be rare.

      [–]PoorlyTimedPun 6 points7 points  (0 children)

      Man this is gospel shit. Good stuff. Been in this position with the mother of my kids, all she does is the manipulation, I feel I need to actually hard next her (how with kids?). We are split but she tried/s to come back...I have a few plates I'm spinning but the chemistry with me and baby momma is undeniable (is this oneitis or I just haven't found someone who is as good in bed/knows how to turn me up harder than a diamond in an icestorm?) plus kids... I was obsessed with trying to fix things for our family/kids before we finally split so I know that's clouding my judgement. Any advice?

      [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      Beta and alpha are a spectrum. Alphas get roasted by women as well, just not as often. If a beta has a relationship, even if he is beta the right move is to stand up to these conniving wenches. Are you suggesting those on the beta end of the spectrum continue acting beta and be a doormat instead whilst running back and forth to the gym?

      I am pretty damn alpha yet my bitches act up constantly. Bitches be bitches. This advice sucks. If your woman is acting out you either call her out or leave, no-one should simply "ignore it". If a beta calls out a bitch, that is a major step to becoming more alpha. The commandements of Poon recommend punishing swiftly, your advice says not to. Im going with the commandments on the sidebar.

      [–]1jimjackjoe 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      If you're weak-assed and you suddenly act all stern, it's going to funny to a woman. Walk in her shoes for a second. You'd be laughing too. I think he's warning guys about that scenario.

      Your ideas are interesting too though. I actually don't think your ideas conflict with Archwingers necessarily. The ideas are on different planes. They have a similar slope, but different y intercepts.

      [–]biscuitgravy 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      Just break it off. You can't save it. You don't want to. And attempting to save it shows you care too much. It's not like before. Women used to need men to keep them from getting killed, secure property quickly, or have children. All these needs have been addressed in modern society by either the government or technology. You know most women are either scared of men raping them or think we somehow oppressed them into being incompetent. (Ironic since exclusively men created those protections for them).

      If you are able to save a relationship with anyone who doesn't need you and sees you as a threat you need to be immediately suspicious to say the least.

      [–]103342 8 points9 points  (20 children)

      Don't ever discuss feelings with girls you want to fuck. It is THAT simple.

      If you do, she will lose attraction. You might think you are winning something, but in reality she is the one getting something out of you.

      One thing that guys that "set boundaries" don't understand is that by doing this you are giving her power in the relationship.

      If she shit-tests you and you overtly try to set boundaries, she might concede, theoretically you won, but in reality you are pushing her closer to you. At the same time that you are limiting her freedom, you are giving her more space inside the relationship.

      You can't run away from that. This is the double side of the shit-test, you pretty much always lose something if you play into her game.

      This is something that 80% of the guys here simply will never understand. Even if they think they do understand.

      [–]TRP VanguardArchwinger[S] 22 points23 points  (18 children)

      It's not quite as twisted as you're making it out to be. You can pull her tightly into the relationship with boundaries, and limit the fuck out of her behavior, if and only if you're a winner.

      A badass, masculine man that women are afraid to lose, who has options with dozens of other girls at any given time, can have all of the power in his relationships. What he says goes, because his current girlfriend will submit to anything he wants to avoid losing him. In fact, he barely has to say anything at all, because his girlfriend will always be conscious of him and conscious of her own behavior, and will act in a manner that minimizes her chance of fucking things up with him.

      The trick is that you can tell women what you want. Even what you expect. But you can never deliver ultimatums or commands.

      You'd be amazed. When you're a badass man, random statements from six months ago, like, "I think long hair is pretty" or "Good women don't drink whiskey" will affect choices your woman makes today. Even if you were just saying something random and silly.

      [–]103342 2 points3 points  (9 children)

      It is by framing shit tests this way that a LOT of guys fall for the trap that you are warning about in your post.

      In my opinion you should avoid setting boundaries at all cost, again you should AVOID it, not NEVER do it.

      But don't ever think that you are such a masculine special snowflake that YOUR boundaries will be respected, and not used against you.

      Everytime you give the girl expectations that you have and rules that you want her to follow, you are giving her power over you. You are investing your time in her and in the relationship.

      [–]p3n1x 2 points3 points  (8 children)

      This goes a bit against grain of Leader vs. Follower. Women absolutely pine over the idea of following a strong leader. They will test whoever they are with forever, period. No man can ever avoid the "testing". So why not lead? Just know that all things end and you are Mr. right now.

      [–]103342 5 points6 points  (7 children)

      For me, when people here talk about being a leader all I hear is them talking about how to be a better beta bux.

      Let me cite a wikipedia article on Human mating strategy:

      One prominent hypothesis is that ancestral women selectively engaged in short-term mating with men capable of transmitting genetic benefits to their offspring such as health, disease resistance, or attractiveness (see good genes theory and sexy son hypothesis). Since women cannot inspect men's genes directly, they may have evolved to infer genetic quality from certain observable characteristics (see indicator traits). [...] Women prefer purported good genes indicators more for a short-term mate than for a long-term mate, and a related line of research shows that women’s preferences for good genes indicators in short-term mates tends to increase during peak fertility in the menstrual cycle just prior to ovulation.[33]

      Women are thought to seek long-term partners with resources (such as shelter and food) in order to aid her, and her offspring's survival.[34] In order to achieve women are thought to have evolved extended sexuality.

      This is what people in TRP used to call Alpha Fux (short-term, good genes/high test)/Beta Bux (long-term/resources).

      When you stick around and you are her "rock in the storm", guess which one you are? BETA BUX. You are a very good beta bux.

      There is nothing inherently wrong in being a BB, but don't kid yourself when you think Chad Thundercock is going to be giving "his woman" instructions on how to be better for him. He won't. He will just pump and dump.

      The one who will train her later and be her leader is going to be you, the leader, the strong man in her storm, the best beta bux ever.

      [–][deleted]  (4 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]p3n1x 0 points1 point  (3 children)

        Pump and dump is shallow over time. Nothing wrong with building a bond for a period of time. As long as that bond doesn't sacrifice your mission, resources, etc... Women are fantastic at the supporting role, especially when they look at you like a true leader.

        [–][deleted]  (2 children)

        [deleted]

          [–]p3n1x 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          Different character sets get different outcomes. We can agree that not all dudes like the same ass. Why be so judgmental about what gets a person off?

          I see the "Alpha" defined here many times as a singularity, and it just isn't true to the sciences discussed.

          Again, if you are not losing resources and are not sacrificing your mission. Why care how one plays with pussy?

          Putting all leaders in the "beta" bucket is counterintuitive.

          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Yeah negro, summoned me up. Sorry I'm late, I was busy doing business.

          She'll never feel your pain or sacrifice her pursuit of her own sexual imperative for you. I don't know, I think you can still have relationships with women that are valuable but it's getting really hard because women are too easily being presented with options and distractions. Women will only act in your interest if helping you is going to help her. It doesn't mean they want everyone else to suffer, because they don't, but she's only going to be concerned about your health or something because she wants you to hang around longer. Women are protective of men the way they're protective of a favorite toy.

          Male-female relationships have a give-take dynamic, and most often the woman is doing the taking. If you want a good relationship you need a girl who understands her value and is smart enough to know that she can't abuse your drive for her. Women can be lovely and nice but you have to make your terms clear. My understanding is that the only way to have a relationship with a girl is to concede to her, but if you want her to act right you also have to be firm on your own personal boundaries. She's not going to cross those boundaries because she feels guilty for hurting you, but she'll respect them if she knows that you won't stick around for her if she doesn't act good and she doesn't have a better option. This is where the submissive woman myth comes from, it comes from a girl knowing her value and wanting to keep a high SMV guy hooked on her, but it's an act.

          I just keep trying anyway... plate and if you like her you can upgrade her. Just don't marry her, damn. You can always stop at any time that way. Difficult for me because I don't want to hurt her feelings and shit but you gotta look out for number one.

          [–]p3n1x 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          The only thing I would continue to argue with what how you replied, is it seems you are placing Leader and Teacher into the same basket. Maybe we see "leadership" in a different light.

          [–]LaRedPill 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          You nailed it, I remember just making casual comments about whatever with my current girl and she referencing that shit months afterwards showing me how good she is behaving according to what she percieved was a guideline from me.

          I had to stop talking shit because she would just eat whatever I fed her, even ridiculous stuff I said just joking.

          Let me translate something she wrote for my RP blog:

          "Women, or at least me, think all day long about our Man and we tend to think they don't really think about us at all. But my boyfriend, with his spontaneous and romantic love demonstration (telling me a Saturday morning to grab a coat we are leaving and ending up 400km away at the coast with no plan), shows me he does think about me"

          So there you have it from the fucking horse mouth, whatever you do is Romantic if she perceives you as her Alpha Male. Hell I have called this girl Sunday 7am telling her I was outside her house awaiting to go whatever when I was really at home and she felt that was romantic (of course then one day I actually was outside, she was so horny we had to fuck at the side of the road)

          [–]sd4c 3 points4 points  (1 child)

          This. So much more effective when they're random, indirect comments

          [–]RobertCarraway 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          I think this current girl knows me better than I know myself. She says things sometimes that make me realize she fucking remembers EVERY LITTLE THING I HAVE EVER SAID IN PASSING. Like, who the hell pays that much attention?

          It's flattering. Makes my life easy, but it's almost fucking creepy. Makes me want to be careful what I say.

          [–]OpenBumChakra 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          "I really like your man-bun" /smirk

          Now wears hair down when we hang. Lol

          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          You're getting into "no true Scotsman" territory.

          [–]EntitledShitHead 1 point2 points  (1 child)

          When you're a badass man, random statements from six months ago, like, "I think long hair is pretty" or "Good women don't drink whiskey" will affect choices your woman makes today. Even if you were just saying something random and silly.

          Is that how bad ass men "set" boundaries?

          [–]LaRedPill 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          I think so, eventually you need to be overt about somethings, like "I dont like stew" or "I don't like girls randomly calling me with no warning, you want to call me, ask me first if I can talk"

          But the rest of the time she will be on egshells by herself, the more unattainable she perceives you (ie. dread) the more she will fall in line with no active participation from your side.

          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          I give you a steady round of applause Arch. A woman wants to commit to a strong mans frame, she craves to commit. An ultimatum or command is proof to them that they have the cards and you are slipping into her frame. A women should enter your frame and not the other way around to quote the wise Rollo.

          [–]QPRCHOC 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          I think setting some boundaries is important, and represents good communication. I've been toying with this idea recently and I do agree with the view that setting boundaries helps you in selecting higher value women.

          Option 1 is a bit of a leap. Your woman is behaving badly so you respond to it by turning your life around? Working on yourself is something you should be doing irrespective of any relationship you are involved in, and should not be contingent upon the actions of others.

          [–]Bad_nuggets69 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          Had an unresponsive potential plate. Came to the red pill and found this thread. My responce was aligned with option 1. I explained the negative behavior, told her to leave, figure it out, and then I'd let her come back if she changes her ways. Sitting on unread messages from her. But have no desire to read them today. Maybe later in the week. The key is the ability to walk away. As mentioned no behavior is better than bad behavior. Why have negative energy in your life. Good thread. Upvoted.

          [–]1PantsonFire1234 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          Every normal relationship eventually slides into betadom. Whenever a woman gets to comfortable and believes she can't lose you is the moment she stops giving a fuck about losing you.

          I've yet to see a long relationship where the woman didn't misbehave in some way.

          [–]2Overkillengine 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          And someone is going to reflexively recoil and sputter:

          "B-but communication! Closure!"

           

          STOP

           

          One must squelch this urge.

          Because as noted above, overt communication like that both gives her the chance to learn how to be a better liar and to absolve herself of blame by redirecting it to you. And she will- after all, she cared so little for you that she transgressed to begin with. You are not a priority to her, and she has demonstrated that.

           

          She has not earned this opportunity just for being born with a vagina. The only thing she has earned is being discarded in silence. No words, no anger, just silence.

           

          Like one would throw away a used kleenex. If she wanted to be treated better than a tissue, the burden is hers to act better than one.

          [–]p00pey 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          step 1 won't really work. SHe's got an image of you ingrained in her, you gotta come up with serious game to change that. Best bet when truly trying to convert from beta to alpha is to dump her, go monk mode for as long as it take and internalize this shit. it's not a fucking magic bullet, you can't just go all 'alpha' all of a sudden and expect results. It'll be a painful death by a billion paper cuts. Best to cut losses and move on...better yourself, internalize the RP, and come out of monk mode ready to throw down...

          [–]Oblongata 1 point2 points  (2 children)

          Setting multiple boundaries for behaviors of another human being, be it male or female, is overly controlling. People need to understand that it is a waste of time trying to control the actions of other people. You are responsible for yourself, that's it. If your girl continuously does behaviors that you find disrespectful, and you have mentioned it to her and she continues to do it. It is time to move on.

          [–]Kwantuum 2 points3 points  (1 child)

          That's what setting a boundary is...

          [–]Oblongata 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          My point is this: If you are needing to set multiple boundaries, constantly. It is time to move on.

          [–]Akill3s 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          Word.

          "Confrontation is a tool of women, not men, and if you have to use a woman’s tool against a woman, all you’re telling her is what buttons she can press in the future to really upset you, or what she needs to do a better job of hiding. Why would you arm a woman with that kind of weapon?"

          [–]Screenp2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          It's also a trust issue for the girl.

          If all you're ever done is what you do, and then change, all she knows is what you were and this new you is just a phase. It takes time for her to realize that this new you is here to stay, and that is when she'll push back, when she realizes you're serious and no longer able to have the upper hand. Cue shit test galore to make you fall back in line, then you cue up points 1 and 2 above..

          [–]Endorsed Contributorex_addict_bro 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          This exactly happened many times in my past marriage. This works exactly as Archwinger described.

          [–]faggotbrains 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          A note on Ultimatums in the rational male blog

          https://therationalmale.com/2012/05/07/ultimatum/

          [–]sweetb00bs 1 point2 points  (1 child)

          Lol tis is 99% of posts. This def in the 1. Good call. Well written

          [–]sweetb00bs 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Most likely 100% the comments on here

          [–]Senior ContributorNightwingTRP 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          If these guys want an alternative game plan, they could happily kick their asshole game into high gear. Mocking and deriding a woman for her poor behaviour is a move I've found to be very effective. If you wish to accentuate this then you can outright state that doing X makes her unattractive. It's amazed me how effective it has been to openly tell a woman she's unattractive to you for X, Y or Z reason.

          There are two reactions that asshole game brings. The response to an alpha is laughing and agreement/cute looks for reassurance. The response to a beta is anger. If the beta then holds his ground and ignores her tantrum, then she may reevaluate her view of him. It's a more implicit way of setting the boundary that fits the feminine/womanese conversational pattern.

          I also strongly disagree with this:

          Confrontation is a tool of women, not men

          As someone who uses pressure flips all the time, I can say that direct confrontation is a very handy tool for men. I believe that confrontation simply has different goals, different styles and different... "success conditions" if you will.

          For women, confrontation is designed as a sort of war of attrition tool to try to cow a man into the submissive role through emotional manipulation. For men, confrontation is about asserting dominance then and there in a quick strike. Whether this is emotional, physical or intellectual dominance is irrelevant, the victory condition is simple: she must be totally overwhelmed by you immediately. (Hence why the biggest win on a pressure flip is to turn her into a babbling mess.)

          I believe this is why you have come to that conclusion that it is not for men, because many men simply can't show the level of ruthlessness required to completely overwhelm their woman and actively demonstrate to her just how utterly worthless she is by comparison to him.

          To flesh out the nuance to the point you've made more completely, I'd go on to say that when you refer to using a woman's tool against her, is trying to use the woman's style of confrontation - along with her victory conditions - against her is merely that confirmation that you are not good enough to completely overwhelm her and assert dominance. Instead you have to ask her to submit to you, just like her attempts to emotionally manipulate are - she is requesting that her man submit to her. (Another of the endless tests women give us to see whether we'll give up our dominant position or not.)

          [–]SmoothPrimal 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          Lol this sub and obsession with beta and alpha. Just do what the fuck you want according to your principles. Dont let a woman or stupid TRP fuckheads tell you how to live your life.

          [–]Hakametal 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          There are exceptions to this. Guys who have their shit together can also experience this behaviour, regardless if you're alpha or beta.

          My ex had a lot of these behaviors; constant shit-tests, insecurities, passive-aggressive tendencies. Basically an energy vampire. It's a great post, but I feel it lets the woman off the hook too easily. She could be behaving like this for a number of reasons. She could be too masculine and the lack of sexual polarity is making her bitchy and dominant. She could be insecure and complaining that you don't care about her. She could be a narc.

          My ex was a mix of all of these. I set boundaries from the start, I never put up with her shit and I never put her on a pedestal, and while she would become incredibly submissive when I really put my foot down... it never lasted.

          I think there is one absolute most of us can agree on. 99% of the time, whether or not you're alpha or beta... women like this are not worth the effort and the drama. Dump her and find a woman who has her shit together.

          FYI: we lasted 2 months.

          [–]1favours_of_the_moon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Just remember: If you’re a work in progress, you don’t get to overtly set boundaries. That’s not a tool in your toolbox. Confrontation is a tool of women, not men, and if you have to use a woman’s tool against a woman, all you’re telling her is what buttons she can press in the future to really upset you, or what she needs to do a better job of hiding. Why would you arm a woman with that kind of weapon?

          In other words, don't TALK about it. DO It.

          [–]uxeazy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          I've been looking for something like this, great post Arch.

          [–]1Jax77789 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          3- you forgot Dread. As effective as the L.

          [–]MeiFriend 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          We often fall in the assumption we can and should fix everything, which is an error. I can't control what my girlfriend does, I can only see for myself, if what she does hurts me in any way, I may end up losing any affection I have for her, that's it, I can't "correct" her behavior, we may talk things up if she is interested in doing better, but if she is purposedly disrespecting me then there's no reason to stand for myself, just leave.

          [–]igottennispenis 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          This applies to me and I accept that

          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          They can and should set boundaries. Then when it's ignored, end it

          [–]WhySoRuff 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          If you’re a Red Pill newbie, or even a guy who’s been reading this shit for years but still doesn’t have complete control over his relationship, be honest. You know who you are. It’s not shameful – you’re still leaps and bounds ahead of the huge majority of men. In fact, acknowledging where you’re lacking and need to improve is a sign of strength, not weakness.

          There is four levels to this shit ranging from 'participant' to "major factor"

          1. Unconscious incompetence - your wingin it and their is no strategy in your actions, your not sure why things work or why you tend to fuck things up

          2. Concious incompetence - you know your weaknesses and you usually know when you've messed up immediately after messing up or after analyzing unfavorable results

          3. Concious competence - you are aware of the dynamics at play at any given moment and you act strategically to gain positive outcomes with a little calculated move based on experience or intelligence

          4. Unconscious competence - aka amused mastery aka you don't think about it you rely on instincts that have been forged through countless experiences

          We have all transitioned from step 2 to 3 at some point in our life and we have been overzealous to make a stand for the countless fuck ups in the past. It's like the newest thing you've understood and you love exercising that new skill set.

          It's forgivable, just like the 12 year old boy who realizes one day that his penis is an entertainment center randomly, and furiously masturbates enough to make up for the first masturbation free 11 years of his life.

          [–]DoesNotMatterAnymore 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          If you have a hard time to understand any relationship dynamics, just replace women with a 'job'. To them, we are just a job. If i want to understand them, i just think the same way.

          If you have a weak, soft spoken boss, who never demanded anything from you, and because of that, well, you became a lazy ass. How would you react, when one day he comes into you office and start demanding [things]. Then threatens to fire you? Your reaction would depend on your options in your field.

          But if you have an awesome job, with a high salary, and a lot of future prospect, would you ever let yourself to act shitty towards your boss? Do you even dare to be lazy, risking the chance that they fire you? Nop, you would not do that.

          [–]TRP_Lee_zard 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          One comment to the great write up.

          When you mention two options, I don't fully agree where in the first you say to escalate sexually - In my opinion one shouldn't do it.

          Why?

          When escalating for sex you show her that even though she disrespected her man, he still wants and needs her.

          Women want sex with desirable partner just as much as guys want it, but it is easier to hold this back and therefore use sex as way of reward/punishment as well as currency. If you will be able to show her after a crappy situation that her advances mean nothing to you - you clearly state that when needed you are in control of even the most prime need.

          Suggestion to all in relationships etc, try this once, withdraw attention and when chick starts to escalate for sex (as she will as a way for validation) show (but for the love of god don't tell) her that her former behavior made her unfuckable.

          [–]logicalthinker1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          I disagree.

          Women don't like alphas because they sit there and logically come to that conclusion. It's just in their nature to get turned on by alpha behavior. Men don't consciously reason out that they like hot women and great bodies, they just fucking like them. It would be like a fat girl losing weight and dressing sexy. Her man is going to find her more attractive even if he knows she used to be ugly and fat. Same goes with women.

          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Great post Arch, She should add to your life, if she subtracts then she is to be subtracted as well. A man's greatest asset when dealing with women is the power to walk away.

          [–]blasted_biscuits 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          This is good advice. If a woman is doing something shitty you cannot win through confrontation. If your lips are moving, you're losing.

          [–]PoopInMyBottom 0 points1 point  (1 child)

          This reads more like a rationalisation for not confronting your girlfriend than even remotely good advice.

          You know how you check whether your girlfriend respects your boundaries? You clearly and verbally set boundaries.

          [–]TRP VanguardArchwinger[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Admittedly, the guy who calls out his shitty woman is miles ahead of the guy who hangs his head and lets her walk on him. But the reality is that for most men, attempting to verbally set a boundary doesn't work. It just helps their woman lie better.

          "Betas" don't get to bluster, threaten, and make demands. It doesn't work. And most of the time, "alphas" don't have to, because their women behave without being told.

          [–]poochman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Is there ever a scenario where you should verbally set boundaries with a woman? Why can't those 2 options always be used regardless of how alpha/beta you are?

          [–]AnonymousAndLovinIt 0 points1 point  (1 child)

          This only works if she realizes her bad behavior, what if she doesn't know what irks me/I disapprove of?

          [–]TRP VanguardArchwinger[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Women know how to behave themselves without being told. If not, then a woman is an even worse prospect than one who doesn't respect you.

          We're not talking about putting sweet pickles on your sandwich when you prefer dill. We're talking about actual behavior unbefitting of a girlfriend.

          [–]HeadingRed 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          This could be the MVP post of the week. Possibly one of the most important concepts to grasp.

          [–]circlhat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Your post is spot on , ignoring and walking away are very powerful tools.

          Before your woman demonstrates her respect for you by submitting to your boundaries, you need to actually be respectable.

          I don't quite understand this, you should always assume respect from people and if you don't get it move on, but you always deserve respect.

          [–]MaxBrodin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Focusing on yourself (career, money, etc) as a beta in a relationship is prone to the woman creating artificial drama to keep focus on her perceived needs. Focusin on yourself can cause her to escalate fights, find minor things suddenly bothering the hell out of her, etc. especially true if you were fucking for a while and she feels her nice little beta provider is slipping away.

          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Hmm, but how to make difference between poor attitude and shit test?

          [–]saviour01 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          My gf use to love going out and would always stay at friends houses. We eventually had a talk about it and she agreed she would come home after a night out. Very next weekend at 6am I get a call "hey, I'm staying at friends house tonight, leaving club now, see you when I get home". I told her if she didn't come home it was over. She tried to start an argument and then blamed me for not coming home.

          When she got home after lunch that day all her stuff was packed. She lost her shit "After all the stuff you have done to me, cheating, meeting up with ex's, not showing me affection, etc etc you are going to throw it all away for this? I moved across the world for you, we have been living together for 4 years etc etc".

          My only response was "you made an agreement, you broke it, have a nice life".

          She has no family and not many friends out here, ended up staying with one of them. Still calls me up every now and then to fuck. But I agree, I was a beta who set boundaries and she didn't think it meant anything.

          [–]mikazee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          If you’re a work in progress, you don’t get to overtly set boundaries. That’s not a tool in your toolbox. Confrontation is a tool of women, not men, and if you have to use a woman’s tool against a woman, all you’re telling her is what buttons she can press in the future to really upset you, or what she needs to do a better job of hiding. Why would you arm a woman with that kind of weapon?

          I thought indirect confrontation was feminine while direct confrontation was masculine.

          [–]Teleswagz 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          this is completely ridiculous