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Field Report[FR] Date ended on a sour note after she resisted escalation multiple times (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by tayowsp

Matched on Tinder, teased her about something in her bio and immediately told her "let's go for drinks tomorrow - what's your #?". She gave it to me, and a few hours later we made plans.

She texted me that she was going to be 20 minutes late, I told her "OK, but drinks are on you". When she finally arrived she looked exactly like I expected: eastern European, pretty, slim, and same height as me (170cm). Definitely my type.

She was apologetic about being late, I didn't make a big deal out of it - just hugged her and started talking. Conversation went smoothly and continued in the venue - I teased her, she was laughing, and we had a similar sense of humor.

We were given paper straws for our drinks, and mine started collapsing. I took hers without asking and we playfully fighted over it - good kino and fun. I touched her shoulder and thigh when teasing her or when it felt right during conversation.

I also asked her to taste my drink, and she said: "I'm going to get lipstick everywhere". I said "that's bound to happen anyway" and she said "confident" and took a sip.

She felt slightly distant but made good (yet short) eye contact from time to time. Around 30-35 minutes in the date we were talking about our personalities: she mentioned how she used to drink a lot and be wild and how she has now changed. (We're both 24.)

I teased her about it and then asked: "how spontaneous do you are from 1 to 10?". She said she was very spontaneous and would rate herself a ten. I said: "let's see" and moved in to kiss her by putting my hand on her cheek.

She resisted and moved away, saying that she's not really into signs of affection in public and that we have just met. She told me she doesn't like to see couples making out, and I teased her saying that she's just bitter about them making out while she isn't. She laughed and we playfully kept teasing each other.

15-20 minutes later I escalated again by looking at a tattoo on her hand, then moving her closer to me, then going in for the kiss. She refused again. I was surprised as I expected her to kiss me. She said "what's wrong? You look moody now because I didn't want to kiss you". Well, no shit - I played it as cool as possible but I started thinking that she was not attracted and that I was wasting my time.

I told her "let's pay and go on a walk". She paid for the drinks, then we walked to a nearby place with a cool view. We kept talking and teasing each other. I escalated one more time and she gave me a very quick kiss - a peck on the lips - then turned away and said that she didn't want to make out now.

She said something like "I bet you're one of those guys that fucks on the first date and has dildos under his bed", and told me a story of a guy she met on Tinder who had an horse dildo under his bed. Then she asked about my most interesting sexual experience, and I told her a true story of me giving cunnilingus to a girl outside a research center in the mountains of Colorado, how we got caught, and how we dated for 1.5yrs afterwards.

I asked for hers: she told me that she once got drunk and had a threesome with two guys she met at a club. She told me how she thought they were gay and made them kiss each other during the threesome. I said "I think they proved you they were not gay" with a smirk.

I thought that the sexual conversation was a good indication that I could escalate again. I tried and got rejected, and she said something like: "you keep trying to kiss me but I'm not that kind of person, it's creepy". Yeah, you're not that kind of person after telling me about a threesome with randos.

I assumed that she wasn't attracted and simply told her: "OK, it's fine if you don't feel like kissing me but let's not waste each other's time then - let's go home". I got up and started walking, she was looking at me without doing anything. I told her "are you not even going to say bye?". She told me "it was nice meeting you" and her eyes started tearing up. I said "likewise" and went home.

I really liked how she looked and her humor, so I'm pretty bummed about this.


Things I did right:

  • I had her pay for the drinks to make up for being late. My time is valuable.

  • Teasing and conversation went very well in my opinion. It was never boring and we both seemed to enjoy it.

  • I did kino whenever a good opportunity arised. Playing with the straw was also a good move.


Things I did wrong:

  • Gave her the impression I was butthurt after she rejected my kiss. I was more surprised than butthurt, but it's definitely hard to shrug it off after she rejects you twice in a row.

  • Pushed too much. After she gave me a peck on the lips I should have probably tried to bring her to my place with some plausible deniability, and see if she was more receptive to escalation in private. I was fixated on at least getting a kiss before attempting that. If she had refused anyway I could have ended the date on a higher note.


In the end, I feel like I didn't learn much from this and I want to hear your thoughts.

Was she simply not attracted enough to me?

  • She was comfortable talking about the horse dildo of another Tinder date and her threesome, yet she rejected my kiss saying she's not "a touchy-feely person" and that she "doesn't show affection".

  • But she also came on the date, paid for the drinks, and was fine with my kino and teasing.

Did I fuck up something major?

  • Did I try to kiss her too soon? (30min in)

  • Should I have acted differently after she rejected my kiss?

  • What should I have done after just getting a peck on my lips?


[–]red_philosopher 64 points65 points  (9 children)

I think the key here was that she genuinely wasn't interested in making out in public she had all the right signs. Should have just taken her home and escalated there.

I bet it would have been more than a K-close.

[–]tayowsp[S] 7 points8 points  (8 children)

Yeah, I definitely should have tried to take her home instead of pushing more and more.

I just was confused because I assume that "no kiss = no sexual interest".

In general, how can I differentiate a true rejection from a girl that just doesn't feel comfortable in public?

[–]red_philosopher 16 points17 points  (3 children)

The big difference is how she behaves. I can't stress enough that watch what she does and not what she says is pretty critical across the board. She was visibility affronted by your intimate escalations of kisses, in public, but seemed very comfortable with other forms of kino at the time. She also paid for the drinks as instructed. She plainly stated that she was uncomfortable with it, so a change in venue would have been a good step there. Wherever and whatever it was.

Always keep in mind that she knows what you want from her.

If she's following your lead, listening and following, she's interested. If she's putting up resistance to your suggestions, it's probably shit testing. If she's visibly distracted, irritated, and argumentative, then it's probably best to call it a night.

That said, if you suggest you go back to your place, and she agrees, you know she's interested. If she declines but has good signs otherwise, go out with her again and see how she is the second time around. A lot of girls have some fierce ASD and don't want to be pump and dumped. I've had women say they just don't kiss on the first date only to be a naughty slut on the second. So take that with a grain of salt. :)

[–]DropDeadTyrant 17 points18 points  (2 children)

also too, the part where he turned around and said, "you aren't going to say goodbye" sounded pretty cringey/needy. should've just walked away and seen if she followed.

[–]red_philosopher 15 points16 points  (0 children)

By then it was already a disaster. That's barely worth mentioning.

[–]Azor_AHYPE 3 points4 points  (0 children)

lol, I read that part 3 times to be sure that he actually said that, not her.

[–]destraht 8 points9 points  (0 children)

It seems to me like every women has a spot that she is more receptive to being kissed on. Some girls go straight for lip kisses, others go crazy with ear nibbles, neck kisses or cheek kisses. Some let you immediately place your hands on their mid thighs where others that is a no no. I really upped my "necking" game in the Ukraine massage parlors because most of them have hard rules either from themselves or by the establishment but if you chip away at them then they just get increasingly excited to the point that they bend their rules. It was just a minority of the women that just either didn't like me or were not going to break their rules.

Sometimes when they start getting really horny with far back neck nibbles or ear nibbles then they would shut me down on any access to that but the juices are already flowing at that point and they can't just put that genie back in the bottle. So then I would go for more tame touching but then everything just feels more the hornier that you are so then that can go farther.

The last thing that I ever want to do is to be hard told NO even a single time and definitely not three times. The more that they have to tell you no, the more you are forcing them to cement a position that they might not even want to have.

Additionally sometimes a woman just would not let me do one particular thing for whatever her reason. Nope, no neck kissing, can't do it. Some women would let me suck their nipples but not let me kiss their cheek, and then amazingly another chick would be the opposite. Totally different every time like a good roguelike dungeon crawler.

Sometimes a woman just is absolutely not going to kiss you on that bench right there. She won't do it. However, right over the by the cute romantic bridge she is suddenly very squeezable and will kiss you easily. Don't take it literally but that is a very plausible scenario. I think that these days with movies that they have just about all built up fantasies around particular scenes and characters and they want to experience an event like in the story. Perhaps a hundred years ago they did the same but from novels.

One last point is that if you enjoyed being with a woman then you should hang out again. It seems to me that most guys who are in situations to get unlimited satisfaction (usually from being able to cheaply buy their services) tend to ultimately gravitate towards spending time with people, men or women that they enjoy being around. If you had already gotten laid twice that day and you weren't even sure if you could get it up with a third girl (past that little tingling down there) then would you have wanted to hang out with her again? If yes, then just hang out with her again.

[–]TheGreatMrJones 6 points7 points  (0 children)

What happened to you used to happen to me several times and to an even greater scale. I would have girls on dates with their legs on my lap, and holding hands but they would refuse to kiss or go home with me. Doesn't make sense right? I had escalated properly, set the sexual tone, they responded well to it, why the hell wouldn't they let me kiss them?? I was baffled, frustrated and clueless.

Then one night, I was out with a friend of mine who I consider to have very advanced game and saw him open a set on a bar. I observed from a distance. I thought the set was going badly, where was the kino? No touching? Seemed like just a perfectly normal conversation for me... A few minutes later, I see my friend getting a number close and coming back to me. He told me: "This one is DTF. I have her number and she lives close by to me, I will deal with her another day, I think I can find a hotter girl tonight (she was hot enough for me, easily 7.5-8). " When I confronted him with my observations he just told me "Dude, you don't need to escalate that much, there are far more important things, she was totally digging it. I think one of your problems is that you are too agressive." This stuck to my mind, and in the following days I watched some Todd and JP infields where the same question arised: "These guys did so well, but where is the kino? It looks like the girl isn't even being gamed." And BANG! There came my realization which was aided by Todd telling the same:

Good game is subtle game. When you are good at game, the girl shouldn't even realized she is being gamed, it should all feel natural and that "it just happened".

So this is how master level game looks like. But how can beginners improve and benefit from this idea? Ok, so let's go through by points:

- You are not an absolute beginner. You are not afraid to escalate the girl, both physically and verbally. That's good.

- Now that you have gone past that initial fear phase of getting physical/showing intent to a girl, here is what you need to do. TONE DOWN YOUR KINO. You don't need to be touching all the sweet spots all over before you go for the kiss. This can be socially awkward and there's the risk that you show too much neediness. So what should you do? Kino should happen, but try to keep it at a 10% higher level than a purely normal platonic conversation. Sitting close together, ocasional touching hands/hair . You don't need more to imply that that is a man to woman interaction. The same goes with verbal escalation. You don't need to be talking about dark sexual fantasies and dildos under your bed in order to get her to bed. Again, try to keep the sexual vibe 10-20% more than you would have on a normal conversation. That is enough.

Now, the big elephant in the room. The big encompassing reason why she didn't sleep with you: SHE DID NOT FEEL THAT BY SLEEPING WITH YOU IT WOULD BE A WIN FOR HER. Remember, a woman will ONLY sleep with you if she feels that by doing that she IS WINNING with that decision. Let's see your case. Why would she want to sleep with you? Just because you told her the drinks were on her, you talked about sex and started progressively touching her? In her mind she was "If I sleep with this guy, I will be another girl he sleeps with, One more for the collection. He wins and I don't win anything because I have tons of guys wanting just to get into my pants". See? Did you evaluate her? Did you try to build a connection? Advice for next time, which is advice that helped me a lot: After you set the tone of a man to woman interaction, listen to her, make her talk about herself. Ask her questions and tease her playfully, keep the sexual vibe on from time to time (don't let the conversation go back to platonic) but don't think only about that. Don't focus only on your frame, focus also on the WE frame, the frame of you and her. Tell stories involving "you and her", say "we" "you and me" (those are simple tricks for building a WE frame). As for the close, most of the times you will be able to kiss her in public, you shouldn't rush it but remember that there is also never a right time and that at some point you are going to have to go for it. Also, keep in mind that it is perfectly possible to pull her to your place without having kissed her before.

Hope this helped.

[–]Doctordinglefuck 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Every single girl wants to fuck you. This is the mindset you must have when dealing with women. Every single woman wants to fuck you, but she wont take the initiative to do it. So who's gonna take the initiative? That's you. Push/pull, state your frame and hold it, compliment + lightly tease her in the same sentence (neg), and condition her using positive psychology. These are all principles that work. You just gotta do it.

[–]loz333 85 points86 points  (22 children)

Mate, you ended it with 'let's not waste each other's time then'. Now she thinks that the whole date was just about you getting into her pants, and because that didn't happen you considered it a 'waste of time'. Like, her company is a waste of time. She probably thinks that there was no real connection between you - that she was just being played.

If you were really just trying to get into her pants and don't give a shit about her, well, she sussed you and that's why she was tearing up. If you didn't then she misunderstood your intentions. Which is a shame; you could have always just gone on another date if you liked her (it sounds like you did). If you like her you should call her up and just explain. It's all well and good wanting to get laid, but no-one has to get hurt over stupid misunderstandings like that. You'll be more of a man if you can do that and it will build your confidence on multiple levels.

[–]red_philosopher 42 points43 points  (14 children)

This is pretty solid advice as well. You have plenty of time to make the magic happen. Sometimes you just gotta be patient. Besides, if she is good company, enjoy yourself.

Get the fuck out of your head and in the moment.

[–]tayowsp[S] 15 points16 points  (13 children)

Sometimes you just gotta be patient. Besides, if she is good company, enjoy yourself.

When I am enjoying the company of a girl I'm sexually attracted to, I have an unsatiable urge to escalate. The reason is that I'm terrified of getting rejected/LBJF later on in the process.

I'm scared that she just enjoys the validation or me chasing her, without genuinely feeling attracted to me. I think this comes from my low self-esteem, but also from having internalized TRP concepts such as "always be closing", "she would fuck Chad on the first date", "you can say/do anything if she's attracted to you" in a too-extreme manner.

My brain thinks: "let's just get the kiss and the sex out of the way so you can enjoy her company knowing that she's into you".

When she told me about the threesome and snooping under the other guy's bed I couldn't help but think: "I've never experienced a threesome before - I'm bitter about it. She did that with two random strangers and she doesn't feel like kissing me after the good time we've had?"

I almost feel like I've been cucked. I feel like I'm inferior to someone who doesn't have to be patient and doesn't have to feel like there are landmines everywhere, and that feeling makes me want to escalate aggressively to get an early rejection/success. Sometimes too aggressively.

I can't come to terms with the fact that I need to be so careful with what I do/say, with setting the right pace, with the possibility of getting led on, with having to escalate but not too quickly... while there are guys that can do it naturally or that can get a threesome like she described.

How the fuck do I change this toxic way of thinking?

[–]trees_away 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Abundance bro. You’re not going to hit a home run every at bat. Stop letting it get to you, learn from your mistakes, and take another swing. Just relax. It gets easier. The rejection stops stinging. You begin to realize that not every woman is worth your time.

[–]Endorsed ContributorThotwrecker 12 points13 points  (1 child)

Want to call out here that for a FR, you're doing a great job of self-assessment and being aware of bad thought patterns, which is refreshing and beneficial for other members.

What I would recommend is understanding a few things:

1) Women do not operate logically or consistently. She gave up the pussy to two club strangers, and now she expects you to date her for it? For us, it's obviously inconsistent bullshit. For her, she feels like she is a good girl now, so she feels socially compelled to follow the good girl script. It is not necessarily a reflection of you. Girls do not rationally evaluate your SMV, they evaluate it through their own lens of how they see themselves, and who they want to be. Which means that if a girl tries to put you in the beta bucks box, instead of the alpha fucks box, then this could either be about YOU or it could be about HER.

2) Because women are like this, never take anything personally. You didn't pump her attraction enough, you didn't deal with her ASD, you weren't enough of a prize for her to justify slut behavior. It's just what it is - it doesn't mean the dude who fucked her last week was a better or more alpha man than you (although he totally could have been, in which case, accept it and move on).

3) In fact, women are VERY VERY VERY turned off by guys who take things personally. Because they feel judged and they feel like you're a guy who is easily butthurt and sensitive. Because women are very perceptive, this means they are able to quickly realize when you're feeling butthurt about something -- meaning the only solution is to not get butthurt. For example, she rejects the kiss, you take it personally and internalize it and you're butthurt and wondering like "huh what I thought we were hitting it off, I'm confused and agitated, why is she not down?" Because she sees that you are essentially fixating on her behavior, she feels judged and she is taken out of a sexual state.

So basically, stop worrying about her behavior. She will do what she does. I used to be such a fucking whore for IOIs. I needed to see her flip her hair or lean in or do this or complete some behavioral pattern that cued me in to her being attracted. Otherwise I wouldn't feel confident and I couldn't escalate right.

Now I do not worry about IOIs, I am not trying to hang on to her every move or even be observant at all - I am completely OK with making a "bad move" or not being "calibrated" or making a faux pas. Because that is true comfort, and that makes her feel like her behavior is not being picked apart in my mind. I'm not even paying attention, so she's free to be a slut because I am not interpreting anything. If I go to kiss her and she rejects it, it literally doesn't even enter my mind as a rejection, and I don't think of it as awkward or weird, because I don't even think about it really. You don't have to say something to diffuse the tension. Tension is good, relax and enjoy it.

You did good in many ways. You had a sexual vibe. She was talking about sex, that is always a good sign, she's talking about getting stuffed and dildos and it's ALWAYS a good sign when she gives you the "I bet you're just trying to fuck" talk. This shows she sees you as a potential "alpha fucks" candidate. So you getting all butthurt about how she got DP'd last weekend and now she won't kiss you... that is your own cuck mentality sabotaging you. She's quite possibly just saying that to see how you react, and of course your butthurt / jealousy came through and now she knows that because you get butthurt, she can't be the DP slut with you. See what I mean? She slotted you as AF (good), she put up resistance and breaks (good - it means that she already knows she's probably going to get pumped and dumped), and now you tried to kiss her 3 times and got butthurt (bad, as I explained your reaction to rejection is sending her ASD into overdrive).

Never take things personally, always expect the ASD, always embrace the shit tests and the rejections. I know how it feels like, "hey what the fuck, you're a trash whore, I know you give up the pussy for free, why are you trying to pump the breaks on me? I know you just put out for a thug last night." But this is an example of using Red Pill ideas to further entrench yourself into a cuck mentality. Imagine being so affected by a the thoughts of a thot that you spend a whole week thinking about every little one of her behaviors and analyzing every little microevent. That is the cuck mentality you're talking about. You must let it wash over you and drain away. Never, ever fixate on female behavior - this is one of the greatest dangers of TRP, because we spend so much time fixating on female behavior. Do not be imprisoned by your TRP knowledge.

[–]Senior Contributorexit_sandman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

She gave up the pussy to two club strangers, and now she expects you to date her for it?

Did she, though? With "dating" meaning "being on a BF/GF trajectory", not "being on an FWP-type relationship-trajectory".

[–]Doctordinglefuck 9 points10 points  (0 children)

When she told me about the threesome and snooping under the other guy's bed I couldn't help but think:

How the fuck do I change this toxic way of thinking?

Stop thinking. Go into your body, deeply, feeling your inner body vibration rise and hold your attention on that feeling for a moment. Lets get this vibration higher. Focus your attention on the life energy flowing in your arms. Notice how they feel? Good. Now focus your attention on your whole body. Suddenly, you become a being. Not a thinking calculating creature subjected to the mind identified state of emotional disturbances.. but a being. One beyond time and space. Can you hear the silence? Listen for it. Once you recognize it, you'll never ever forget it. Free yourself from the confines of form and the manifested. Enter into the formless, the unmanifested, the Now, the present moment, and become aware. Aware of your body. Aware of your surroundings. Notice the beauty in your environment. Suddenly, everything is filled with life. You weren't really noticing that pencil before, but now suddenly you look at it in awe and its vibrating with life. Bring that childlike wonder and life energy back into you. Be in the moment. Dont let society beat it out of you. Let the joy arise from within your inner body. Smile, even cry. The joy of the lord. Now suddenly you are freed from thinking; you just dont need it anymore. Sure, once in awhile you might for math calculations, but for the most part your being relies on presence in the Now. In the mind identified state of thinking, you are seperated from the life source itself.

Source: the power of now, eckhart tolle.

[–]ImHerWonderland 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Fuck.

You just described how I feel exactly lol. You slept with this guy in just a few days, but I have to wait a month? On the bright side I'm always pushing myself to get bigger lifts, eat healthier, study harder, etc so I can break into the top 10%. So I guess there are pros and cons

[–]verily_rp 2 points3 points  (0 children)

How the fuck do I change this toxic way of thinking?

First off let's get this out of the way: that is NOT toxic. That is your instinct kicking in. It's this same exact instinct that makes you a man, to protect your genetic heritage, and the same instinct that you use to fuck women and make them want you.

Think of such things as a form of energy. In can be destructive if focused inwards, which will make it explode and fuck up your train of thought. Or you can control it and use it to accelerate and excel above and beyond. Next time you should use this energy to better yourself, to make her want you. See it as an opportunity to improve rather than a threat to your ego. Remember, your masculinity is always your power. You must wield it in a way that'll make you unmistakably a master of your own circumstances, rather than be a slave to it.

[–]MurkyArtichoke 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Man, this hit me hard, i'm exactly the same as you. I really hate myself for having these thoughts, but i can't help it. I've been rejected/led on too many times, and i've started to enter this state of mind where i am generally just "expecting" the LJBF to appear after a few dates. Because of that, i don't want to waste my time on someone who isn't really interested in me, but is rather just looking for validation and comfort. This makes me kinda "aggressive" i guess, and i feel like a first date without a K-close is a failure. There's so much bitterness and anger in me, and i hate myself for having these thoughts. Dating someone for a month without sex, then to just watch her reject you and then sleeps with some random chad after a night-out is depressing.

[–]fuggetboutit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Add a month and a half here.

[–]Los_olvidados 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Holyshit dude, you nailed it with « I almost feel like I've been cucked. I feel like I'm inferior to someone who doesn't have to be patient and doesn't have to feel like there are landmines everywhere, and that feeling makes me want to escalate aggressively to get an early rejection/success. Sometimes too aggressively.«

This is exactly how i feel when i m trying to game a girl who i know is slutty i know she fucked a bunch of dudes at work but somehow she wont put out with me, its annoying af and it geniounely makes me mad when it happens. I never know how to deal with it but it makes me so incredible mad.

[–]verily_rp 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I never know how to deal with it but it makes me so incredible mad.

First off, you need to recognize just what she is doing and why you feel mad. Then you need assess if this anger is justified and what you should do about it next time you come across it.

I'll tell you right now, the reason you feel mad is because she's unambiguously being cocky, bullying you with her opinion about you not being good enough. She's openly emasculating you and showing you in her primary form of communication (which is context) that you are a loser. You should feel mad. It would be much smarter for recognizing her for what she is, though: a dumb chick who's not worth your time. You said it yourself - she's slut who fucked a bunch of dudes at work. That hardly sounds like a prize to me. Even if you did fuck her, what kind of accomplishment would it be? The participation trophy kind? Your time, commitment, and energy is too valuable to be spent on such things. She shouldn't even be an option to you. You should focus on lifting, self-improvement, and other shit. Anything but her. Don't even give her the opportunity to brag that you aren't good enough. She's not even an option. She's just flattering herself implying otherwise.

[–]Los_olvidados 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks a lot for the reply, it really helped me focus on whats important. Most of these girls never told me they were with other dudes, the example with the co worker, she never told me she slept with x guys at work. It was other people at work who told me she was slutty af. Most of the time i just want to "feel" like i am as good as the other x guys that fucked her. Most of which i know and arent chads or have any out of the ordinary "game" or charm to them. I bet if i have her on my bed with her legs open, i wouldnt even fuck her, but i want to know that i could if i wanted to. I guess deep down, all i want is to know that i am as good as the other dudes. I can have relationships, for years, but the easy hook ups that everyone talks about are alien to me. Now i am adding value to myself by finishing my degree and learn to discipline myself, hope things gets smoother in the near future.

Just me leting it out here =/

[–]muddynips 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The kind of validation you're hoping for by getting a girl to sleep with you is not going to ever fix this mentality. You're scared of rejection, because you fear you are unworthy. The 3-way stuck out in your mind because it's the biggest thing you haven't done and it's intimidating.

You need to uncross the wires in your brain that ascribe self-worth to sex. It's not all that big of an accomplishment, it's just something we do for fun. True accomplishments can't be awarded or revoked on a first date.

In terms of field theory, you should have known that the "hoe-no-mo" girl would be afraid of public perception. If you had taken her far enough away from wandering eyes she would have done unspeakable things to you. She was actively trying to sleep with you, you just didn't pick up on her conditions.

[–]Senior Contributorexit_sandman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

When she told me about the threesome and snooping under the other guy's bed I couldn't help but think: "I've never experienced a threesome before - I'm bitter about it. She did that with two random strangers and she doesn't feel like kissing me after the good time we've had?"

Well, your problem seems to be that she actually was put off by you being pushy (despite her rejecting you, you tried to go for it multiple times, only to get rejected again) and as a consequence towards the end of your date her mood had soured to the point where she didn't want to anymore.

Don't take that personally, it's simply her personal preference. I once had a similar chick - voracious sexual appetite and colorful sexual past, but didn't like to make out in public. I did the same thing you did - I was pushy - and even though unlike your date she didn't stonewall me and we made out, she later pulled the brakes and we didn't meet again.

I almost feel like I've been cucked. I feel like I'm inferior to someone who doesn't have to be patient and doesn't have to feel like there are landmines everywhere, and that feeling makes me want to escalate aggressively to get an early rejection/success. Sometimes too aggressively. I can't come to terms with the fact that I need to be so careful with what I do/say, with setting the right pace, with the possibility of getting led on, with having to escalate but not too quickly... while there are guys that can do it naturally or that can get a threesome like she described.

And maybe she would have made out with a super-hot guy immediately. But always keep one thing in mind: maybe you don't get as much leeway as a 1% dude, but as long as you get what you want without having to exert undue effot, it's still worth it for you (and you're still getting more than 95% of other dudes).

I mean, you definitely should wonder stuff like that if you intend to date a chick, but we're talking about a tinder date and potential ONS/FWB, not the future mother of your children. If she spreads her legs for you (without, see above, you having to exert undue effort), that's a success, even if a few other guys might have it easier. Had you not let that mentality get in your way, you would still wonder whether she fucked another dude sooner and/or easier than she did with you, but at least you would have gotten something out of it, and as we all know "DM;HS".

[–]thirdincomestream 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Solid advice but

call her up and just explain

I would not recommend doing this. There's a lot to unpack in trying to explain this... Easier to just get another date and write this one off as a learning experience.

[–]tayowsp[S] 8 points9 points  (3 children)

She probably thinks that there was no real connection between you - that she was just being played.

Sounds silly, but I thought the same thing on my side. I thought she just wanted me to chase her or just enjoyed the validation but rejected my escalation because she wasn't into me.

I want requited physical escalation as it is proof that the other person is sexually attracted to me. If that doesn't happen I'm terrified of LJBF or - even worse - getting led on just because she enjoys the validation.


If you like her you should call her up and just explain. It's all well and good wanting to get laid, but no-one has to get hurt over stupid misunderstandings like that.

This is a good point. I don't expect her to agree to another date but I think it's right to explain myself. I don't want to unnecessarily hurt people or kickstart the creation of a bitter feminist that hates men.

[–]thirdincomestream 6 points7 points  (0 children)

want requited physical escalation as it is proof that the other person is sexually attracted to me

You want this because it is easy proof borne out of how obvious it is to recognize. This means that you have only scratched the surface of being able to recognize IOIs and other subtle cues that signify interest.

It's these incredibly marginal signs of interest that will make all the difference in your success. Cases in which overt, obvious sexual interest are being shown to you are cases in which you will be closing the deal almost 100% of the time.

It's those really fringe displays and indications of interest that you're just barely picking up on, maybe even questioning yourself about how to interpret, that will really take your game to the next level.... If you only pick low hanging fruit, you'll never get the fruit from the top of the tree....

I get the desire to have mutual attraction and interest shown to you. It's a good feeling and it makes the process less ambiguous, which eases the nerves while you're out here putting yourself out. But your big wins will come from putting yourself out there and pursuing every opportunity you're interested in.

Be genuine, enjoy yourself and the process even when it's not so enjoyable, don't worry about the ambiguity and the lack of obvious interest from women you're interested in. They're running their game too, and they're seeing how you react to things that they do. Just remember, if she wasn't interested, she wouldn't be there with you, be talking to you, have given you her number, etc. And if she loses interest, you didn't lose anything at all! Opportunities are a river, not a pond. You can't fish it empty. One flows by, it won't be long until another comes on down.

Loosen up and HAVE FUN!

[–]loz333 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sounds silly, but I thought the same thing on my side. I thought she just wanted me to chase her or just enjoyed the validation but rejected my escalation because she wasn't into me. I want requited physical escalation as it is proof that the other person is sexually attracted to me. If that doesn't happen I'm terrified of LJBF or - even worse - getting led on just because she enjoys the validation.

Power to you for being able to understand and say that bro. She might have been playing that game, but without knowing it. I don't know if she was, but lots of people play games they're not even aware of and end up pushing people they could have a real good connection with away by mistake. And these are things almost all of us are afraid of, either on the surface or deep down. So when we can see that and overcome it - that's where the real work takes place. I've got a good head but generally I'm in the same fear boat and I need to work harder to get out of it.

I don't want to unnecessarily hurt people or kickstart the creation of a bitter feminist that hates men.

That's cool man, good head on your shoulders too - just keep doing what you're doing and it will turn out good soon. I'm no shining beacon of what a man should be, but glad my words could help out in some way.

[–]ImHerWonderland 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you're going to explain, do it in your frame.

[–]NeedingAdvice86 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is what I thought.....

Is this really the shit datesmeetups that dudes here are having with the girls they meet?

Good lord, this reads like a guide for conducting the worst of the worst autistic dating for sperges. There was nothing in this entire date but the Op going thru some formal "teasing" then groping this girl thinking that that is going to get this girl horny and wanting to fuck. The crying at the end was because she just had to endure another date with a thirsty sperg who just hopes to stumble onto a girl but has no idea how to get there.

It doesn't seem as though that the Op understands women AT ALL...I can't imagine this cringe-type dating working with any but the most thirsty girls around and most definitely not with attractive girl with tons of options.

Where the hell was the fun? Where was the adventure? Excitement? What the fuck was this but sitting in a bar groping this chick thinking "Ok, if I touch her tits again NOW, she will be ready to go fuck"...."ok, now I have talked with her again for 5 mins, let me try to touch her ass now and she will be ready to fuck"......then the horrible ending "Hey, I touched your titties at the appropriate times, do you not want to fuck me now? Ok, then let not waste our time"...WTF?

And no he can't call her up now to explain....he is now a prime example to her friends about how fucking horrible most guys and dates are in the world. Whenever she and her friends get together to bitch about dates in the future, the Op will be this girl's goto response.

[–]red_philosopher 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is pretty solid advice as well. You have plenty of time to make the magic happen. Sometimes you just gotta be patient. Besides, if she is good company, enjoy yourself.

Get the fuck out of your head and in the moment.

[–]Quaternionz 37 points38 points  (10 children)

Your kiss gambit sucked. The proper emotional context for a first kiss is:

  1. She has gina tingles.
  2. You can tell she has gina tingles.
  3. You just kiss her.

It sounds like you were killing it up until you pulled that 1-to-10 spontaneity question. It's clear from your description that the emotional context of your kiss attempt was one in which you wanted to kiss her and she was caught off guard. So, not gina tingles.

If your interactions with a girl are going well there will come a point where she's (literally) wet and she's (literally) aching to kiss you. Girls are shit at making moves, so she'll never do anything with those feelings, but you can learn to detect that moment. Any moves you make in that moment will be 100% guaranteed to succeed.

Your 1-to-10 spontaneity gambit was clever, but you can't manufacture tingles with clever tricks. You can only tease and then pounce on existing tingles when you see them. She did not have tingles when you went for your kisses, that's why you failed. In retrospect I'm sure you realize that she didn't have tingles.

Here's an example of a good kiss gambit:

You're on a first date. You have dinner and then go for a walk by the water. You do lots of kino while walking and talking (always do herding, never hold hands). The date moves to a bar. A movie is playing on a big projector. You get some drinks and go to watch the movie from a couch. You sit down first with an open body posture. Your left arm is splayed out wide on the couch. Your date sits down to your left underneath your splayed arm. You don't actually put your arm around her (because initiating continuous-contact kino is creepy), but your arm is there on the couch behind her neck. While watching the movie you occasionally play with her hair or touch her shoulder. She's in your pseudo-embarce. Eventually she wholesale leans her head on your shoulder. She keeps her head on your shoulder while watching the movie.

That's her begging for it. She wants your touch now. You've been teasing her with it, and now she wants it.

You put your hand on her shoulder and keep it there. Light petting ensues. You watch a scene in the movie where two girls kiss. You ask your date "Have you ever kissed a girl before?" She says "Yes, actually. Once." (because of course she has). You ask her "Have you ever kissed a guy before?" She grins coyly and says "No, never" with a hint of sarcasm. You ask "Do you want to kiss me now?" She just smiles. You lean in and make out for a bit. When you're done making out you say "There, now you've kissed a guy." She laughs.

Tease, make the tingles, pounce on the tingles. Here's another application of the same strategy:

You're on a first date. You have dinner and then go for drinks. The bar has a pool table. You teach her how to play pool, which is a great kino opportunity. You start talking about movies. You tell her about your favorite movie. It's called <MOVIE NAME>. You say you want to show it to her sometime. Then you say "Hey, it's still pretty early, we should go grab a hotel room and watch <MOVIE NAME>." She pauses and gives you a suspicious look. She asks "Hey now, what are you trying to do here? Hotel room?" You smile and say "What? It's an honest movie suggestion. I want to show you a movie. Do you not trust me or something?" She asks "Do you do this often, pulling girls back to hotel rooms on first dates?" You grin and say "I'm not going to answer that question." She asks "Did you drug my drink or something?" You say "Oh yeah, tons and tons. I'm surprised you're still standing even." She thinks for a moment and then says "OK, fine. Let's get one more drink and then go do it." You finish another round and then hop in a cab to a nearby hotel.

Once you get to the hotel she's going to get creeped out and leave if you escalate abruptly without her being wet and begging for it. You're not there for sex, you're there to watch <MOVIE NAME>, so you chill on the bed and put on the movie. She rests her body half on your chest. Eventually you both get warm and clothes start coming off. Now your shirt is off and she's in nothing but a t-shit and panties. You do a lot of petting while the movie plays. When the movie is over she asks you for a neck rub. Her neck is stiff after sitting in once place for 1.5 hours fixated on the TV. As you rub her neck she starts saying "I love how strong your hands are."

Bingo, now she's wet.

She's obviously not making an innocent passing comment about your strong hands, she's begging for it. You throw her down on the bed and start making out with her. Some foreplay follows and then you start fucking.

Asking a 1-to-10 spontaneity question out of the blue does not generate tingles. You went for your kiss way too early. Going for a kiss like that without generating tingles first is extremely creepy and try hard. I've tried that shit. I always thought I was being terribly clever, but it never works.

The underlying problem is that you're pedestalizing sexual interactions like kissing. Kissing and fucking should be no different than anything else you do with your date. You wouldn't pull some weird trick question out of your ass to get her to location switch, for example. You just finish dinner and then you say "Hey, we should keep hanging out. Want to go to <BAR> and grab a drink?"

How fucking weird would it be if you said "How spontaneous are you? Oh... 10 you say? Oh my. Well then, do you think I could get you to prove your spontaneity by hopping over to a bar with me?" If you said that she'd be thinking "Jesus dude, why are you trying so hard? Of course I'll go get a drink with you. Though now that you were so fucking weird about it I'm not sure I even want to anymore." It's the same thing with kissing, and with sex.

Hot women don't pedestalize kissing or having sex. They're never thinking about it because it's not on them to escalate, and getting laid is never hard if they're horny because dicks just come at them 74 times per day. As a man you feel this constant pressure to escalate. You're not getting laid. You want it, and all the pressure is on you. When you fail to escalate you kick yourself and think "Fuck, I didn't escalate, FAIL." You work it up into a big ordeal in your head. Girls can sense when your escalation attempts come from that head space, and it turns them off.

Try honestly not caring if you get the kiss or the lay. I could have not kissed that girl on the couch if the moment didn't arise. It still would have been a great date and I would have left happy. I could have not fucked that girl after watching the movie in the hotel room. It was still nice watching the movie with her. If she had just bailed after the movie it still would have been a good date and I would have been happy (that has actually happened to me with other girls in hotel rooms, who I fucked on subsequent dates instead). I already have a steady fuck buddy anyway, and it's easy to get dates, so I honestly don't care if a particular date goes anywhere.

If you're not getting laid regularly this will all be a lot harder. Try going on a date and making a pact with yourself that you won't do anything more than simple kino. You won't go for a kiss, you won't go for a kiss close, you won't go for a lay. You'll kino and then just hug close. If you have a hard time getting a date it'll be difficult to go in with this mindset. You'll be thinking "But no! I have to go for a kiss! I get so few dates! I have to try!" And that's exactly the mindset that makes her vagina dry up.

Try it sometime. Do only just kino. No kiss gambits, no sex gambits. Just laughing, having fun, and kino. She'll sense your aloofness when you do a simple hug close. You'll hug her and then just go "Hahah, whatever, bye" (internal monologue, obviously). She'll feel inadequate ("Why didn't he escalate!? He was so fun! Why didn't he try to kiss me!?"). After you hug close she'll probably say "Call me!" with a hint of horniness in her voice.

P.S. I'm so sad this place is probably closing. Fuck you Reddit. Fuck you so hard.

[–]tayowsp[S] 8 points9 points  (3 children)

Thanks for your feedback. This is really valuable to me.

I already have a steady fuck buddy anyway, and it's easy to get dates, so I honestly don't care if a particular date goes anywhere.

If you're not getting laid regularly this will all be a lot harder.

This hits home. I have a FWB but we only see each other once every 1-2 weeks. I get 2-3 dates per month, and only rarely I'm very attracted to the girl (like in this case).

I fuck it up because I get too pushy as I think I "finally have a chance"... while I should just relax. Feels like a vicious circle, as I fuck up due to my lack of abundance, and have a lack of abundance because I fuck up...

[–]ZephyrBluu 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Out of interest, how many girls do you approach to get those dates? I.e. what's your success rate.

[–]tayowsp[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They're all from Tinder. Have never cold-approached a girl yet. Got a few numbers from parties/transportation but I always got ghosted

[–]fuggetboutit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have a FWB but we only see each other once every 1-2 weeks. I get 2-3 dates per month, and only rarely I'm very attracted to the girl (like in this case).

This is contradictory. This is the optimal rate with a FWB. The problem here is that you seem to be on the lower end of the FWB scale, eg. she controls the rate of sex. You need to be on top here to generate the amount of impulse you need to be able to game better women.

[–]0-InAmberClad-0 8 points9 points  (0 children)

This is an absolute unit of a reply. Thank you for taking the time to write this out. I was nodding my head many times and was like "NOW THAT is some quality game". Good shit and I appreciate how you explained the "why" also. Should be sidebar stuff.

[–]furiouszeno 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Fucking excellent reply! It could be summed up as "Get out of your own head and just have fun", but your examples and explanations are perfect for that guy that just can't seem to get out of his own head. Great writing!

[–]fuggetboutit 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I already have a steady fuck buddy anyway, and it's easy to get dates, so I honestly don't care if a particular date goes anywhere.

This is one of the main keys to success with hotter women.

[–]clausternn 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Great reply, just one question though...

You do lots of kino while walking and talking (always do herding, never hold hands)

Wtf is herding?

[–]Quaternionz 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If you're walking down the street and you want to turn then you touch her back to indicate the turn to her. If there's a crowd coming and you want her to go in front of you for a second to let them pass then you grab her by the shoulder and move her to where you want her.

You manager her like a herder.

Not being constantly attached at the hands also let's you do other types of kino while you walk. If something funny comes up and you both start laughing you can touch her while you both laugh. If she's joking about getting fat (but actually isn't) you can pat her stomach and say "Oh, you mean all this fat here?" Etc...

Being attached at the hands is needy and limiting.

[–]TRP_Scepter 6 points7 points  (2 children)

First off, I'd like to tell you I admire your persistence and patience with this girl- after she rejected the second kiss I personally would have stopped trying. Also, I wouldn't have waited the 20 mins she was late.

If what you're telling me is true, then I believe that the right thing to do was try to take her home, or someplace comfortable, and then try to escalate there. The good news is, you learned something.

The bad news is, I recommend you leave this girl alone and not talk to her again. Remember the Iron Rules of Tommasi?

Rule #7"It is always time and effort better spent developing new, fresh, prospective women than it will ever be in attempting to reconstruct a failed relationship. Never root through the trash once the garbage has been dragged to the curb. You get messy, your neighbors see you do it, and what you thought was worth digging for is never as valuable as you thought it was."

I know you guys weren't in a relationship, but the rule still applies; you "let the bottom fall out" at the end of the date when you said "OK, it's fine if you don't feel like kissing me but let's not waste each other's time then - let's go home" and ruined any potential for a relationship or possibly even sex.

[–]civilizedfrog -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

Rule 7? You need to read that again.

Don't listen to this guy. Call her next week and carry on as if this never happened.

[–]Azor_AHYPE 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Call her next week and carry on as if this never happened.

She will not answer or she will just give him short and cold responses. "Oh, I'm sorry, I can't go out today, I need to do X."
Trust me, I've made this mistake before.

[–]redpilluk 20 points21 points  (3 children)

You lost when she said I bet you're one of those guys who fucks on the first date and has dildos under his bed.

You should have just agreed and amplified and changed the subject. All it means is she is attracted but doesn't want to get played by you.

Instead you decided to go along with her terrible choice of subject on this date. Two huge mistakes. Letting her dominate the topic of conversation, and talking about her disgusting sexual encounters like you are her gay best friend. You basically friend zoned yourself doing that.

Then you cemented the fuck up by getting upset and leaving over her not kissing you. That's pretty lame man, you're not happy to live in the moment instead your focused on this outcome of getting a kiss/sex out of her and you're unhappy if you don't get it. Women can sense that you are outcome dependent on her. You should have a vibe that you don't really care what happens because you have lots of options anyway.

It's not even useful to kiss a girl early on the date, let her come to you. Don't try to force things it makes you appear needy and desperate and gives off a strong player vibe.

[–]myfault93 5 points6 points  (1 child)

In my experience girls rarely mention sexual encounters. This is a shit test, tattoos and promiscuous behavior on her part are great indicators of daddy issues. He just needed to set the mood to a point where she was comfortable enough. This was entirely ops fault he was to needy and probably seeks validation from sexual encounters. Best advice I could give is to adopt an IDGAF attitude. Go out with girls and not care if you get laid, it also helps to keep in mind that escalation needs to be organic. I've incorporated behavioral gestures into my game. Read books on behavioral psychology, and test somethings see what works and what doesn't. Eventually you'll get better at reading people through their gestures. This is similar to indicators of interest but more in depth. It could also help you adjust your body language.

[–]Senior Contributordr_warlock 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Never let a woman derail a conversation. They will plop bait to avoid certain subjects. If you bite, you lose.

[–]hatguyfromXKCD 14 points15 points  (6 children)

This sounds like borderline rape.... stay here right quick lemme get the admins..

[–]tayowsp[S] 45 points46 points  (2 children)

It's going to come back to haunt me in 30 years when I try to become SCOTUS

[–]kiwifx 28 points29 points  (1 child)

Aw cute, OP thinks men will be allowed positions of power in 30 years.

[–]thunderclapMike 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Aw cute, KIwifx thinks society will exist in 30 yrs.

[–]sir_wankalot_here 5 points6 points  (2 children)

I was going to express the same sentiments. OP failed the shittest when she was 20+ minutes late, OP should have gone home unless she texted with a legitimate excuse why she was late.

[–]Azor_AHYPE 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, she already had a bad first impression. It explains many of her mixed behaviors afterwards. She was clearly testing how much bullshit OP could stand and if he was worth wasting more time with. IMO, in this situation, the best way to behave is:
- Try to cut the bullshit right away, in a playful manner. OP was trying to cut her bullshit, but failed as he was getting visibly angry with the situation.
- If you are maintaining frame and being playful and even then she is still resisting escalation, go home. She is just playing with you and nothing will come out of this. Plenty of fish in the sea, no need to face that behavior from anyone.

[–]jesper_lundqvist 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Others have already covered most of the things that need to be said, and in very good detail too. What I would add is that if you think a girl wants to be kissed and you're not quite sure, you can take a lock of her hair and place it behind her ear. If she doesn't pull back, you're good to go. It's not strictly necessary, but it's handy because pretty much every girl understands what it means and if you're less experienced and misread her cues it's a much less awkward way for her to push you back.

[–]Random_throwaway_000 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I think you played it well and you're being to hard on yourself regarding the things you did wrong. When a girl admits to a rando three sum with 2 guys but denys getting kissed in public, it's safe to say most men would be taken aback and be surprised.

As for pushing too hard, I have a question. How many people were around when you tried to kiss her on the walk? Were you alone on the sidewalk/park with no one watching? Or were you in a busy street with people walking by? If the latter, trying to take her home would've been a good way to be able to escalate in private. If the former, I'm gonna go with her just not being interested (who knows why).

Regardless, nice FR.

[–]tayowsp[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

How many people were around when you tried to kiss her on the walk? [...]

When she gave me a peck there were probably 5-10 people around. It was a "romantic" place with a nice view.

I then moved to a park nearby where there were just a few people but we were quite isolated in a dark spot. That's when she told me about the threesome and when I tried escalating again.

Regardless, I think that the right move would have been to try to bring her to my place with a plausible excuse and then end the date on a higher note if she refused.

[–]temerity18 3 points4 points  (2 children)

You were very likely to bang her if you would have taken her home. She obviously was into you. EE chicks tend to like to take it a bit slower especially in public. Here are a couple of insights of wise trpers: Don't obsess with kisses. I've fucked way more girls then I kissed. Kiss is intimate, kiss is "lets be lovey-dovey". And: Never kiss unless you're somewhere you can fuck.

[–]waking-life 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Interesting, how do you go about skipping the kissing step and straight to fucking? Like, how do you escalate straight there from kino or whatever?

[–]temerity18 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You really need me to break it down in detail?

Short version:

Undress her, undress yourself, tongue her nipples, rub her pussy, wrap your tool, start thrusting.

This does not have to take longer than 5 minutes before you start fucking.

The important part is to be unapologetically tactile. Do what you want, man. Women love that.

[–]BigGeek43 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I had a similar story with a girl who was a virgin.
She came to my house "to show me how to cook" something. But then was refusing my advances. So I walked her to her car and wished her a good evening. Meantime I called another girl and went on a date with her.
The first girl got pissed and told everyone what an asshole I am. So I waited a week and then called her and told her she better needs a gay best friend so she can go shopping with. She responded that she really likes me still. So I invited her again and she was a lot more receptive. If I were you I'd contact her in a week or so and act like nothing happened. Invite her over to your place and I bet she'll be receptive. You escalated so she knows you like her. And she knows that if she meets you, you'll be aggressive. Meeting you she proves she likes that too. Give her a second chance.

[–]creamygarlicdip 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Play it cool man, don't be in such a rush. If they don't wanna make out, don't push it.

Just take it easy.

[–]thirdincomestream 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I think where you really ruined your chances at having a good time on this date was by always having an objective. That's where the "let's not waste each other's time then" butthurt stuff comes from.

I get it, you wanted to be moving forward and escalating, but from what you've written and how I'm interpreting it, it seems that you were far too focused on the progression, and by being so hung up on walking through the process ("okay, first I tease her, she laughs, I touch her at this moment and that moment, now I go in for a kiss here"), you lose the effortlessness that would really make you more attractive to women.

Having a process is good. You should know how a date is "supposed" to go, right? But I think what has happened here is that you have rigidly followed a process without concern for fundamentals, nor concern for very subtle, individual cues that she was sending you.

You were so concerned with tactics (the "do this here and do that when this occurs" stuff) that you forgot strategy (the "how do I want this night to go?" stuff).

As a bonus thought, neither tactics nor strategy is suffice enough in chess.... Good principles and fundamentals will lead you further than any study of tactics or strategy. Tactics is the "what do I do in this situation?" Short term, sharp thinking. Strategy is the "in 20 turns, what do I want the board to look like?" Long term, but also fluid thinking.

Principles and fundamentals are neither. Having good principles of play is a state of being. This is what will give you the "effortlessness" that you are lacking when you follow a rigid process like you did on this date.

[–]fuggetboutit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is very well put, I dig the chess analogy. You are not aware what that kind of thinking would have got me a few months ago.

[–]kellykebab 1 point2 points  (0 children)

2nd attempt at the bar probably came off as forced. Should have just chilled out a bit, focused on just having fun and made a move much later on.

I totally get the weird feeling when girls talk about these crazy, borderline gross sexual experiences and then act all prudish with you, but the reality is sometimes they just get into moods. And those moods are not always "crazy party slut." If you want to hit it off, you just have to play the mood you're given.

At the end of the day, it's your life. If you found her high maintenance, just move on. There are plenty of women out there.

[–]chasevalentino 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Although I can't help you because I don't feel like I'm in a position to comment due to where I am in my own self development journey. I have recently committed to undertaking trp journey and reading this and the accompanying comments really have opened my own eyes to how needy I have been. When people are replying that you 'should contact her in a week' or should 'have left if she was late' Really opens my eyes up to me not respecting myself enough to put value on my own time. I have felt weird if I hadnt talked to a girl in a day or two on tinder and felt the need to double reply etc. I really need to cut that out and from this example and the helpful responses of the guys at least I'm going in the right direction.

Again thanks for the story and comments. And lastly I've heard of the 'side bar' people have mentioned on reading those threads and learning how to become a better version of themselves. I was just wondering is that accessed from the computer version of this subreddit?

Cheers again

[–]jesper_lundqvist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"or should 'have left if she was late'"

I wouldn't treat that as gospel. One can get a little too autistic reading into why someone is late when it could be something as banal as the bus was late. Unless you have a good reason to think they're disrespecting you, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. People normally reveal their attitudes pretty quickly in person anyway.

[–]bemore_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well done for putting yourself out there, lord knows how tough it is navigating dating

I think most of your actions are coming from an insecure place, so that when she did something that poked these insecurities, you couldn't deal with it emotionally

It's a lot more than assuming attraction here, it's more like the image you have of yourself. This will probably take real work with yourself but not for too long. It's beyond what you think you did wrong and what you think you did right. It's more like who were you being, how were you treating her, how you felt she was treating you, and how these all relate to the relationship that was unfolding

Now it's perfectly fine to fuck things up. When one door closes another opens, when one women turns away, she opens the door for you to be more clear with who you are, so that the next women is kicking down her door to let you in. This takes a certain level of honesty and that's what is lacking in this report. You've described everything in a very egoic manner, you're not very open here, so real learning cant take place. All the lessons here are hidden in your emotional responses to the events, not who paid for what or if you tried to make out in under 21.324 minutes

[–]7856849 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Sounds to me like she is looking for more than just a hookup... she is virtue signalling to you, telling you about the threesome and about how she used to get drunk and party...in the past.

Ie in her mind she behaved out of control and that's when she had hookups. But now she has moved on...

I think you may have picked the wrong girl looking for the wrong thing but (I assume you have high SMV) she took a chance with you because she was so attracted to you.

[–]tayowsp[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

To be fair, I am not looking for just a hookup. FWB (and possibly LTR, after vetting period) would be the best thing for me.

I'm just irrationally afraid of being led on and being seen as beta. She tells me about the threesome yet she rejects my kiss - my first thought was: "she sees me as a beta, I don't turn her on".

My current FWB (fucking regularly 6+ months) was a Tinder date - she rejected my first kiss saying "not here", but when we went to a more secluded spot we made out. I brought her home and - even though I didn't fuck her that night - next time we had sex and a lovely evening.

That was ideal: some natural slight resistance (not a complete cum dumpster) and requited physical escalation. Even if I didn't fuck her that night I didn't feel butthurt because she showed me she was interested.

With the girl from my OP, I didn't get that physical sign of interest so my mind started running wild about "being seen as beta" and I fucked it up. She probably just wanted more privacy/time.


I assume you have high SMV

Not really, I'm pretty average. Good body (not big but people notice I lift), average face, short as fuck (169cm).

[–]OmegaMan2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Her eyes tearing up when you ended the date told me everything I needed to know about how the potential relationship could have progressed.

My wife is also not into public displays of affection, but in the bedroom she is wild. She'll often make a comment like "they should find a bedroom" when she sees a couple making out.

Your date seemed to enjoy your company and was most likely hoping for something more. The advice to take her back to your place was good and if you come across this situation again I would heed that advice

[–]SmamelessMe 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Based on her description of getting laid on what I gather was a first Tinder date, she was just genuinely not into making out in public. Being eastern European myself, I kind get it. Girls over here are still into protecting their public persona.

Inviting her over might have been the answer.

That being said, you absolutely did sound butthurt at the end. Even if she called you creep, which I'm almost allergic to. The best way to give up trying is to thank her for a nice evening, go home, reflect (this is where you might have figured out inviting her over next time was a good idea), and then either reach out for second meeting, or ghost if not interested.

What you did was burn bridge because of bruised ego. You wanted to make a statement. That's not constructive.

[–]HAMMURABl 0 points1 point  (0 children)

so here's a girl who has tatted hands and did three-somes with 2 guys she just met in a night club, but is now "beyond that phase" and doesnt kiss on the first date.

okay, so clearly she is a slut. why not a slut for you? girls are moody as well, might have had a bad day. on another day, you maybe would've succeeded.

[–]0-InAmberClad-0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yo, call that chick up (NOT TEXT) and explain that you felt she was rejecting you etc. then say "If Im wrong (i.e. being rejected) and you're still down, lets go ________ on ___day" then on the second date shes going to be super aware of any physical escalation at first. Dont touch her at all in the beginning. Then slowly ramp up BUT dont do anything sexual UNTIL you're at your/her place.

[–]Doctordinglefuck 0 points1 point  (0 children)

She wants a beta bux. You arent a beta bux. Dont fall into her frame. Hold your frame. Shes gonna try to drag you into hers. Your frame is your life. Also, you tried too hard in public. They want to be sluts in private. Push/pull. Push her away in public, then compliment + LIGHTLY tease her. Then pull her in, etc. Repeat until shes dripping. Then go home and fuck.

[–]Tarmyniatur 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Should I have acted differently after she rejected my kiss?

I mean, I'm not exactly Brad Pitt but if I go to a date with a chick, we're having some fun and I try to kiss her then get rejected, I just fuck off. There's nothing to gain from desperately trying to kiss a girl, as you've seen with this one.

[–]sorryhampster 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Makes me laugh that you thought making her pay for drinks on the first date because she was late would make her more interested. You really have no clue.

[–]tayowsp[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Never said that. I would do the same if I were 20mins late. It's about respect, not making her wet. Coincidentally women are more attracted to men that demand respect.

[–]oytrp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Basically you forgot the isolate in isolate and escalate. I'm not one for PDA either. All you need to do is step out "for some air" and insist she join. She'll be much more receptive with a little more privacy.

30 minutes might be fine with a rando at a bar well into the night, but too soon for a girl you're on a date with.

Talking about your sexual conquests is never a positive. It sounds like it didn't hurt you, but there is no reason to bring it up.

[–]BenjaminTalam 0 points1 point  (5 children)

As an outsider checking out this place because of the quarantine sparking my interest the measure of a man isn't in how quickly you can get into her pants. If you had been a bit more polite and less pushy things probably would have been fine and you may have made out or more by the end of the night. Lots of girls like to wait a few dates to start being physical with someone, even if they talk dirty from the get go. Those girls are usually also the best in bed and worth waiting for. Better keepers for a long term relationship too. In their minds if you sleep together on date 1 they consider you just a lay and vice versa and the relationship tends to not go anywhere. Just seems to me this girl expected a date not a hookup so she wasn't in a hurry for anything assuming this would be date 1 of several.

Now you've inadvertently probably traumatized this girl and she will either not go on any more dates for a long time or possibly sleep with someone else very soon because she feels she has to as you devalued her for being old school. So now some dude is going to hook up with her while she feels uncomfortable but like she has to or he'll treat her like you did.

For what it's worth I think the second she used the word creepy to describe you to your face it was over. So don't be too worked up about whether things would have been fine if you hadn't labeled the night a waste of your time and walked away. Though I'd definitely not recommend saying that to a girl again. I mean just think of the reverse. Wouldn't you feel like shit if a girl said "yeah let's not waste each other's time" and walked away from you to end a date? The equivalent would be ghosting/dipping out via an "I gotta go to the restroom".

[–]Pestilence1911 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Hahaha.

Read the sidebar. Everything you know to be true is a lie.

[–]sorryhampster 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Actually, Pestilence1911, he is exactly right. If I were on a date with a guy and he acted like this I would be repulsed, leave and block his ass. On what planet does this work?

[–]tayowsp[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

If I were on a date with a guy and he acted like this I would be repulsed

Only if you didn't find him hot enough. Biology is biology.

[–]sorryhampster 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Nope. I've had guys I've been initially extremely attracted to act like this and I lost attraction instantly when they act too pushy.

[–]tayowsp[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure, there's always a thing as "too pushy". My point is that the threshold for "too pushy" depends on how hot you find the guy.

If an ugly guy approaches you and asks for your number you might feel offended and call him a creep.

If an attractive guy does exactly the same you will perceive the interaction differently.

Don't believe that people who read TRP are retarded incels. All the information here is pretty logical and based on biology. Obviously everyone is different and reacts differently to social and sexual situations, but the underlying principles are based on human biology and are undeniable.

The sooner you accept it, the happier you'll be - even if you're a woman.


Also, you might be wondering: "why are these creeps sharing all this information on the internet? Can't they get laid on their own?"

You, as a woman, don't have to do much to get male attention (as long as you're reasonably cute). You are expected to be approached by men, and react. We are expected to approach and act.

Not everyone can do this naturally. As an example, I was sexually and violently abused by my mother. My father was domestically abused by her as well. I never had a strong father figure and never learned how to approach women on my own. I was severely underweight until the age of 18 and practically invisible to girls.

You have no idea what that means. I had no clue where to start. Finding out about TRP, lifting, gaining confidence and understanding the laws that rule sexual interactions is changing my life.

I had a great 1.5yr relationship. Currently have a 7+ mo FWB. Doing great progress in the gym and making 100k+$ per year (software engineer). The lessons learned from TRP greatly impacted all of these things for the better.

Sometimes I make mistakes as seen in this post, but I'm genuinely trying to get better. I want women to please me, but I also want to please them and enjoy each other's company.

[–]Gelgisen 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Liked a lot the drinks and teasing stuff. Keep it up 👍

[–]SlippinJimmii -1 points0 points  (3 children)

Sounds like she just wasn't interested. Seems like a time waster if I'm honest, good job on walking out. Wouldn't say it reflects badly on you either from what I read. Re read.. Hard to say, bringing her back would have been a good call. Asking her if shes not gonna say bye when your the one walking away is butthurt though, just say bye and bounce shouldn't mean much to you if she says bye or not

[–]tayowsp[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

bringing her back would have been a good call

Agreed, there's a chance she was just not comfortable in public. I just wanted at least a proper kiss before telling her to come to my place, but maybe that was my mistake.


Asking her if shes not gonna say bye when your the one walking away is butthurt though

I was honestly just weirded out because I was the one who said "let's go home" and she just stared at me silently.

TBH I'm not gonna contact this girl again so I don't care if it came across as butthurt, but I appreciate the feedback. My main goal is learning from this experience.

[–]SlippinJimmii 0 points1 point  (0 children)

yeah bro, the butthurt is more about maintaing an unflappable frame for yourself, walking away unsalty and just ghosting. But of course brother, were all learning and improving everyday, good job on securing the date!

[–]DVidojkovic -1 points0 points  (4 children)

I'm new to TRP, but you could've said something like "Well, it was nice wasting time with you." and not asking her if she's not even going to say good bye. If you smiled throughout this entire act and didn't show a sign of care then it was a nice move.

Or you could've A&A'd the part where she called you a creep and joke about it. But I assume you had enough of her bullshit. There are girls that don't want to kiss in front of a lot of people, so I don't really think it was a sign of unattractiveness(thats not even a word).

[–]red_philosopher 4 points5 points  (3 children)

Honestly, she was right to call him a creep. She didn't do anything wrong, and he's pissed because he fucked up. He needs to do some serious introspection and realize that there's more to the game than landing a quick lay.

[–]DVidojkovic 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I'm genuinely curious, how would have you responded being called a creep? I'm not saying he's entirely right, because she told him that she's not open to kissing in public and he insisted and forced a kiss 3 times.

[–]Azor_AHYPE 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Like others have said here, you just agree and amplify, laugh and then change the subject as fast as possibly.

[–]DVidojkovic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I said the same thing about A&A, but we both agree OP didn't do the best thing in that situation.

[–]Psychological_Radish -1 points0 points  (0 children)

She texted me that she was going to be 20 minutes late

This right here told me everything that I needed to know. Most girls that are truly interested in your sexual approval aren't late. So right off the bat, you had an uphill battle.

Usually I'm pretty harsh on guys here, but I think in this instance she simply wasn't that into it, for whatever reason. This is the downside of Tinder. Occasionally I'll get a girl who shows up on a date, and I know within 5 seconds, just by the way she greets me, that she doesn't really want to be there.

Maybe she thought I would be taller, maybe she came out because she was bored, who knows? In that instance, you just end the date as quickly as possible.

That said, I also gather that you might be coming off as too thirsty and needy for sex. One comment further down stuck out to me:

When I am enjoying the company of a girl I'm sexually attracted to, I have an unsatiable urge to escalate. The reason is that I'm terrified of getting rejected/LBJF later on in the process.

Never act from fear, no matter what. This is your problem.

I know exactly what you're feeling because that was always my problem. There was one girl awhile back - very pretty, charming, similar background, intelligent, and gave me heavy IOIs. The connection was like nothing I ever experienced before.

I immediately knew I had to have her in my life. After the first date (failed to f-close, that's another story) I started getting visions of what it would be like to have sex with her, date her, and have her as my girlfriend. Irrational, ONEitis-type stuff.

In the past, my problem was always that I failed to make a move. Well, I'd be damned if that was going to happen this time! On the second date, I rushed it. Hell, I was in her bedroom, but I couldn't get there - she sensed my thirst and desperation. I was too overt. I came off as a creepy guy just trying to get the bang, like the whole date was one big charade.

Girls can sense your state of mind on a level that you and I cannot possibly fathom. Fear is the death of her arousal.

What you need to do is chill the fuck out. Be decisive, but relax. Go with the flow. Don't try to force things. You're supposed to be having fun. You need to really, truly be able to take it or leave it.

[–]axthrowawaylol -5 points-4 points  (1 child)

"OK, but drinks are on you".

yeah fail right there. tinder/bumble is 100% sex first date. u fuked up virgin

[–]tayowsp[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'll send my next match a dick pic, thanks for the feedback