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MetaDealing With Attached Girls & Cognitive Dissonance? (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by NomBok

I've got quite a few points and rhetorical questions here that I'll try to unpack in a coherent way.

 

The Problem of Attachment

First, I know a major philosophy on here is why you shouldn't get attached too quickly to girls, if at all. I don't have this problem, in fact I believe I'm a so-called "Avoidant Attachment" type personality, which basically means I tend to withdraw when others show signs of attachment (there are supposedly three or four attachment types depending on where you read). It's a blessing and a curse.

It's a blessing in the red pill sense because I naturally give off a vibe of non-neediness, and I enjoy being highly independent. But it's also a curse because I am aware that there are girls who genuinely get feelings for me, but as a result I usually just pull away; I know this can emotionally hurt people and because I'm not a sociopath it makes me sad to think about, but I really can't help it.

(I should point out it's not like I shun away anyone interested in me. It's just extra resistance, and I can overcome it if I'm actually interested enough back. But if I'm on the fence, it's much more pronounced, and usually leads to me losing all interest.)

 

Cognitive Dissonance

This often reminds of a past post by someone talking about The Sadness Phase. It's especially difficult for girls who I didn't really feel a connection with at all, and didn't plan on seeing again, but they seem to very quickly fall for me. These aren't dumb sluts or whatever, but rather what I'd consider "genuine" "good" girls. Hopefully you just know what I mean by that.

So it kind of leads to this cognitive dissonance, where I don't want to see them again, but I feel like shit for blowing them off. In the end I'm not going to do something I don't want to. The 'sadness' comes from imagining they'll probably spend a decent amount of time trying to figure out "what they did wrong" or "what's wrong with them". It's like I'm punishing them for trying. This is based on personal experience from my blue-pill days on the flip side, and seeing it as a third party.

Further, there's girls who are happy to be plates, and I like being friends with them, but I know that deep down they'd really want to be in a relationship. Again it's like I know it will never happen, but they still hold out hope, which kinda also makes me sad. It's like, are we any better than the women who keep orbiters around? I guess it doesn't matter, that's just how life works, it's not fair. But it doesn't change the shitty feeling.

 

The Point

I guess the point of this post is to open a discussion based on yall's experiences and how you deal with this / prevent it (if possible). I'd be surprised if I was the only one here.

Just off the top of my head, I think the only thing you could do to prevent this is to pre-select for girls who are basically only in it for the physical relationship, but obviously then you wouldn't really want to be friends with them. I also think a mistake I make is to not tell them straight up from the beginning that I'm not interested in commitment. Maybe there's no solution at all, it's just another thing to deal with.

Curious of your thoughts.


[–]1grogbottle 61 points62 points  (6 children)

/u/-Fidelio- is right. Aristotle's guide to the good life states that you should enjoy doing what you consider to be right. As for you- you do not enjoy what you do, nor do you consider it right. You are both weak and immature by that reckoning.

Figure out what is right. Your behaviour is not attachment avoidance. It is responsibility avoidance. You do not want the responsibility of a relationship, nor do you want the responsibility of breaking a girl's heart. You blow them off hoping that they will take the initiative and break things off for you. Your so-called "avoidant attachment" personality is an excuse for indecision and weakness.

That is the problem here. Fix yourself first.

I have had many girls want to go steady, and many others who were in it just for the night. I have never had a bad breakup. You've hit on part of the solution: make things clear. The other part is taking the initiative to break things off when it's your turn.

It's all about setting and enforcing boundaries. In this case it is emotional boundaries. For those girls who know what they want you can make it clear you are not looking for more. But they may push the boundaries. It is up to you to enforce them. These relationships are dangerous because you get complacent.

Most girls do not know what they want. These are dangerous because they do not think. If you are capable of feeding them a steady stream of tingles, they will attempt to force whatever twisted notion of relationships they have onto you. It is up to you to hold frame and enforce your own boundaries. These relationships are dangerous because they lead to the classic crazy ex stories.

Back to my criticism of you. It is not in bad faith. That is how you need to improve. You need to have a moral rock in your heart before you can even begin to enforce the boundaries of your relationships the way you want them. How can you achieve that if you are not certain in what you want?

[–]RedPlanetMan 3 points4 points  (4 children)

Can you please explain more? I've been dealing with similar issues and I feel this was spot on. Myself in the past, I either went full BP and lost whatever original attraction was present, or I go the route of OP, silent, avoidant, etc.

I understand fully what you mean by a moral rock, but do you think a proper context for it could be developed through anything other than discipline, in whatever task, or through suffering (ex. loss of a loved one)?

I realize it is a fatal flaw, but I've felt compelled to arrive at some mental context of what strong frame is (the verb, as in "being") in an effort to live and breath just that. It has worked to some extent, but I suppose as I think about it now, I haven't exposed that cultivated frame against the countless difficulties in living, at least not very difficult ones. Any thoughts?

[–]Nashboy45 10 points11 points  (3 children)

I’m not the op so I might not be responding to his idea exactly, but I tend to think about it like, living by a code. You have a code of behavior that you believe is right for whatever reason and you will follow that code to whatever conclusion it takes you because if you don’t at any point you would have failed yourself. A couple of examples:

I just got into lifting and so I can’t say I’m big. I haven’t been in a fight for a couple years. But any time I enter an engagement with someone who is disrespecting me and I can’t avoid the situation, I stand my ground. I know that if I keep my feet planted in the face of opposition it might conclude in a fight but I’ll try my best because I know I’m not some kind of dick and I fully believe that I am right about not letting people walk all over me (by doing so, people usually back off despite us both knowing I’d probably lose). However, knowing that I definitely am not going to let people bully me into submission is something that I could always be proud of because I know it’s the right thing to do.

I’m in a relationship with a girl for 2 years and occasionally she would do things I don’t like, intentionally or unintentionally. However, I always address them when I confirm that the offense is repeated. She knows that if I see the issue re-emerge after I addressed them and she understood what’s I was saying that I would leave because I feel that it is right for me to not allow someone to cause me suffering out of willful ignorance or blatant disrespect or pettiness.

I guess fundamentally, you’d have to know that you’d definitely be okay alone but if you feel that you are doing something wrong by stringing someone along, then do what you see as right and end it. Or do what you see is right and get in the relationship.

I guess don’t hamster yourself into thinking you are living by your ideal standard. Know what it is you feel is right and wrong in your eyes and live by them as if they are the rule for life. It’s okay to change them but as long as you truely believe you are living righteously, you can never really regret a decision as it was what had to happen to live as you see is the right way. A plate leaving, a fight starting, a good relationship ending. You’re invincible in a way. And I also think this is what the red pill means by frame. It’s really a unwavering sense of what you value.

[–]RedPlanetMan 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I agree with all of what you said, all of it relating to small inner/personal decisions about what is important and worth fighting over. I had an abusive ex-girlfriend and I was too concerned with putting up the front of a strong frame, I would just take it. Wasn’t worth it, especially when that careful confronted charade of a “frame” came down.

I guess what I was wondering is what else aside from talk therapy could possibly develop that context of strongly held beliefs and principles. I feel almost all people naturally fall into one pattern given the circumstances of their birth, location, heritage, etc., but that also, its possible to move up and down that scale so to speak. Strongly holding any belief provides life structure/frame, leading to small and at time exponential little victories on an everyday basis (i.e., competency is its own reward).

I had my own unquestioned paradigm since I was a child, which was absolutely solid in the worst ways and it took a series of failures and wakeup calls to snap out of what I can otherwise describe as a hypnotic state or spell. From one day to the next, my XP level doubled. I was also in the worst state of my life, physically, financially, spiritually, etc. Since that transition, my life structure/frame has been in a state of absolute chaos, only getting better in small periodic bumps, though this has gotten more fluid in recent days and it is much more solid in terms of understanding why I believe what I do.

At this point, I feel I've reached a near sustainable and productive level of engagement with life, as compared to a few years ago, spending no time lifting, eating right, reading on important topics for self growth, socializing, learning, etc. I could still do a lot more. Often times, I naturally form a bond with absolute HB11/10 but I have been in a state of shock so I haven’t really been myself for years (I.e., in the recent past, even if a girl found me initially attractive, I was to PTSD’d to respond properly, something that before wasn’t an issue. This has gotten better but still, I’d prefer to live in boldness).

It has taken years to rebuild and I have been doing so exactly as we mentioned, with a careful attention to what principles should be firmly held and inner/personal beliefs are more harmful than helpful, with work, girlfriends, family, etc. Thing is, I remember clearly how I formerly operated and I find myself reverting in subtle and familiar ways at any given time, less so frequently I believe due to the fact that eventually, I have to learn my lesson. So yeah, I wonder if finding a good faith would help, a source of meditation and some guidance, or if some other trait would better serve the goal of become more solid frame wise. Writing or some other art.

In a way, this is what I convince myself grad school, and regular lifting, and dieting is, a series of personally held convictions in terms of completing a goal so I keep at it. My inner structure, in terms of long term material wealth, I feel is much better than a few years ago. My outer periphery and most inner core however feel very empty on most day. This is why I feel so sure that I need to keep seeking out that context for strong frame, success, contentment, etc.

[–]qiang_shi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Get good at a thing by doing it.

[–]1grogbottle 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well done. Well written. You show all the important qualities: a sound mind to evaluate and re-evaluate your principles. A good practical wisdom in recognizing and planning how to enforce them. And the moral strength to actually see them through.

Stand taller, get stronger, guess less. You've got this.

[–]confusedguy911911 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I need to echo this response as I believe it is dead on point.Like he mentioned the issue isn’t woman and their possible feelings for you , it’s you inability to become vulnerable enough to open the door to something else.Ive seen both woman and men behave this way , usually heavy players into their 40’s ,50’s on the male side still single or woman 30’s,40’s single with kids are clear examples .These people have either had piss poor parenting when a child (if any at all) , or single parents ,or something traumatic like abuse of some sort mental/physical.What compounds the issue today is social media and the ease of quick hit validation that comes with it.This just makes the person feel not so bad and hence “normal” in their eyes ,making any search for treatment or issues non existant. I wouldn’t categorize you as a socialpath or anything that’s a whole other level.But most people who can’t attach ever , usual have underlining issues and minus the quick fix dopamine hits from random sex partners , usually they aren’t happy and in many cases go through life bored or confused.

[–]Senior Endorsed ContributorRian_Stone 50 points51 points  (28 children)

I would never want to be part of a club that would have me as a member -- Groucho Marx

She falls for you fast, she'll get over you fast. I wouldn't worry abotu it too mucyh

[–]2littleblacktruck 27 points28 points  (17 children)

Girls who fall fast tend to be serial monogamists, never single for long.

[–]Senior Endorsed ContributorRian_Stone 23 points24 points  (15 children)

what a wonderful way to describe plating dicks

[–]zyqkvx 14 points15 points  (2 children)

Spinoff thought: I try to keep in mind men can learn a lot from women. We tend to be faggy romantics that need to focus more on being grounded in reality.

  • At any given time a man can change his mind too

  • If it's been 3 months and the relationship is getting boring, move to the next

  • If it's been 3 years and the relationship is getting boring, move to the next

  • If a man finds a new shiny person it's time to move on. She doesn't own you

Tons of lessons. I should start writing a list.

[–]Senior Endorsed ContributorRian_Stone 11 points12 points  (1 child)

Oh we most certainly do.

What do you think dread is? Male version of a females branch swing.

What do you think being aloof is, if not acting like a 22 year old thot?

[–]3LiveAFTSOV 8 points9 points  (11 children)

Isn't serial monogamy just regular dating?

If your man dumps you, get a new man?

Plating would be like, serial cheating

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (3 children)

It's not regular dating. It's girl that falls for a guy hard and fast and treats him really well, then suddenly loses interest and break up with the guy, but next thing you know she is in another serious relationship within a few weeks or months. This can be very upsetting and disconcerting to the men who she leaves in her path of destruction. This is often also a very high quality girl that many men would be happy to date, so many of the guys she destroys thought that she was "the one."

Had this happen to me in high school. Was dating a girl. She dumped me and was dating one of my best friends within a month. Dumped him and was dating another guy very shortly after that. Later saw on facebook after high school that she was in a pretty serious relationship with a guy - dumped him and made her status "single and ready to mingle," and very shortly after that was in yet another relationship with a different guy.

It's fucked up because no one would call her a slut or say that she sucks - I mean how can you really be a slut if you are always in a relationship (and presumably not cheating), but these types of girls tend to fuck with guys' heads way worse than a slut ever could. Generally with a slut you at least know what you're getting yourself into.

[–]Soldeo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Same experience here but the girl has some daddy issues.

[–]confusedguy911911 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

I agree with everything except the “ she tends to be a high quality girl” I’m thinking you made a typo on that one.No high quality woman opens her gash to a new dick every 2nd month.

[–]eaazzy_13 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Now a days they all pretty much do. But I agree that high quality is a stretch.

[–]TonyZ554 14 points15 points  (4 children)

She’s able to get into another relationship so quickly because the other guy has been lined up for weeks.

[–]omega_dawg93 11 points12 points  (3 children)

this.

guys really underestimate how women operate.

they keep DAILY tabs on the status of their relationships and make DAILY adjustments and plans... analyze it, let it run its course, or bail-out.

again... they update themselves emotionally on a DAILY basis. by the time we (men) realize something is wrong, she's already checked-out and has the next guy in-mind (or already involved).

we like to make fun of girls eating ice cream, crying over us, & watching chick flicks after a break-up, but don't be fooled. women keep their orbiters well organized & ready, and when it's time, she's licking ice cream and cock in short-order.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Yup. Makes perfect sense from an evolutionary perspective. Not a smart play to leave your caveman boyfriend who is sharing slabs of antelope meat with you before something else is lined up. In fact it could be fatal.

[–]AliceInShames 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It could also be fatal for the cave ho to forget that the cave pimp could run across another cave ho he likes better and leave her ass in the dust with her litter. Specially since he's always fucking any he can or wants to.

[–]omega_dawg93 5 points6 points  (0 children)

branch swinging is always happening... even when she says there are no trees around.

women survive on their own with their mouths (lies & bjs) and thru manipulation/deceit (planning... long term).

that 'sweet little innocent princess' is just another human trying to pass-on her genes just like you.

[–]Senior Endorsed ContributorRian_Stone 1 point2 points  (1 child)

women aren't men. I think of it like firing a machine gun vs shooting flak

[–]3LiveAFTSOV 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If girls are the MGs yeah!

[–]1ozaku7 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I had a girl fall for me the same night I bedded her. She was a good girl, but also a mess. She was 10 years straight never single, she jumped from boyfriend to boyfriend, so I didn't see a future in her. Like a month later she dropped me just as quick and reasoned I didn't love her. She wasn't wrong.

[–]Endorsed Contributorex_addict_bro 3 points4 points  (7 children)

TLDR How to project a lot of shit 101

[–]Senior Endorsed ContributorRian_Stone 2 points3 points  (6 children)

Your comment confuses me, mind if I get you to expand a bit?

[–]3LiveAFTSOV 3 points4 points  (1 child)

He's saying it's possible to be the man who walks into a woman's life, likes her, and have her either fall head over heals for him, or have her try to sick her claws into him - either way she becomes attached while you just kinda like her.

[–]Senior Endorsed ContributorRian_Stone 0 points1 point  (0 children)

ah.

[–]Endorsed Contributorex_addict_bro 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Op is projecting a lot

[–]p3n1x 1 point2 points  (2 children)

OP has abandonment issues 101.

[–]Endorsed Contributorex_addict_bro 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Why not. Projections are there for a reason.

[–]Devils_Duke 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Haha I think of this quote whenever a girl makes it too easy for me and I completely lose interest. It's such a disappointing phenomenon, because very often it will be a girl who I thought had such potential. A lot of girls would be well served to read some TRP material!

[–]Senior Endorsed ContributorRian_Stone 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I too enjoy the chase more than anything.

[–]1redhawkes 19 points20 points  (7 children)

The 'sadness' comes from imagining they'll probably spend a decent amount of time trying to figure out "what they did wrong" or "what's wrong with them". It's like I'm punishing them for trying. This is based on personal experience from my blue-pill days on the flip side, and seeing it as a third party.

This whole post is you projecting your own feefees. That's not how it works with women. They have plethora of orbiters to comfort her, she's not going to die if you reject her. She'll hop on another dick in no time.

Do you really think she gives a fuck when she rejects some low smv dude or when she uses her orbiters? No. They are invisible to her in a sexual way, only what she can benefit from them.

You're falling in to the guilt trip. Just imagine if the roles were reversed like in your old bloop times.

Last thing, I'll quote Marcus Aurelius on this one:

You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.

Keep reading and internalizing TRP.

[–]senpaicreampie 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm in a similar position to OP and your comment probably helped the most. Thanks. We're still learning.

[–]1ozaku7 1 point2 points  (5 children)

This whole post is you projecting your own feefees. That's not how it works with women. They have plethora of orbiters to comfort her, she's not going to die if you reject her. She'll hop on another dick in no time.

But the satisfaction won't be there. Did you ever get depressed? Did you ever feel hopeless? Or hopping from job to job, trying to find meaning in life, thinking you've found it but time and time again feel it's not the thing you're looking for, the thing that satisfies you as you expected?

That's how a woman feels when she jumps the dick of orbiters and other 80% of men. There are many reason why a woman jumps the CC, sometimes she doesn't even realize she's on it because she only picks Chads who just want to get laid while she is way too naive and slow learning that she won't get that from them. Or she jumps from dick to dick, hoping she will land on that magical one that can make her FEEL, or, many other reasons.

Makes you think really.

[–]1redhawkes 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Again, male solipsism. The things you've mentioned, job, depression etc, are developed in your mind and you're projecting those things in your mind. It doesn't mean that that's true in reality.

Oneitis, is the prime example of that. The chump adds unicorn traits to some chick he doesn't even know, then the mind takes it as true, but when reality kicks and his 'unicorn' is crushed, the depression appears.

Same with this, if you have been exposed to the high levels of dopamine/addiction, then it gets withdrawn from you, you feel depressed/bored/hopeless.

It's really simple. Stop giving a fuck about things out of your control, think 'it's just your turn.'

Same with women, that's how alpha widow is created. Not your problem.

[–]1ozaku7 0 points1 point  (3 children)

You act as if your feelings and your mind are 100% your control? If they were, we could be laughing at funerals, not give a shit about anyone or decide to cry on the spot. We would be world-class actors making oscar-winners look like shit. You are shaped by that what you experience from the external world in whichever way you experience that, either real or fake.

Only advice here is "Take everything at face value and enjoy the moment". Implying that "it's just your turn" is a focus on a potentially bad outcome in the future while everything right now is alright with a good outlook on the future. My house will fall apart, my car will rust away, jobs come and go, I eat food and drinks and crap and piss them out. My parents will die, eventually my friends and myself aswell and I won't ever have a recollection I ever existed.

So I don't see the point of really thinking so far ahead, besides going through life with a fit body, healthy mental state, being my own best version so I can look back in my senior years I made the best of my life without having any regrets.

Be your best to yourself and enjoy the moment.

[–]1redhawkes 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Of course Im in control of my mind. It's a long process - mindfulness. You just need to make distinction between the thing in your control and the things out of your control.

"Take everything at face value and enjoy the moment"

That's the core of the 'it's just your turn' quote. To be detached of the ego and to enjoy the here and now. To remind you that you don't have control outside events and to see for what it is instead of your imagined outcome.

[–]1ozaku7 0 points1 point  (1 child)

That's the core of the 'it's just your turn' quote. To be detached of the ego and to enjoy the here and now. To remind you that you don't have control outside events and to see for what it is instead of your imagined outcome.

Yeah, but do notice how diffterent it sounds, it being more about yourself in a positive manner instead of the implication that it's temporary in a negative way. And that's how it's supposed to be since positivity feeds you and negativity drains you.

[–]yammyha 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"It's just your turn", a true definitive red pill quote. Self- actualization and self-happiness should always come first. Girls come and go but ones that stay LTR or have good chemistry should at least compliment one's life, purpose and value. I find the good girls tend to be boring without a challenge and have a pattern I noticed. Tend to have orbiters seeking validation of emotional comfort yet are very cunning in terms of manipulating plans and information. Have been told by a certain friend who respects me and subliminally tells me she likes me due to the fact I "have more grasp on control over her" yet subconsciously I find it unattractive that she tries to hide her dirty manipulative tactics shrouded in the good girl act. Thankful for TRP material/concepts and being more aware (zen) of everything around me

[–]1-Fidelio- 52 points53 points  (16 children)

Although expressly against the redpill rules, I will make one moral comment on this: the best ethical guideline is one that is mutually shared by a large community. As this is nonexistant in the current clown world, the second best is whatever guideline allows you to look in the mirror without losing respect for yourself.

Because doing things you regard as immoral, will wreak havoc on yourself psychologically.

I think it's an interesting topic you've opened. I will have to collect my thoughts on my own experiences.

[–]Endorsed ContributorKeffirLime 24 points25 points  (4 children)

Because doing things you regard as immoral, will wreak havoc on yourself psychologically.

One has to be cognizant of where our sense of morality comes from and at whose expense/benefit does it come.

Does it serve others at our expense?

Does it serve us at others expense?

Does it serve us and benefit others?

These are the questions we need to ask ourselves.

[–]gaspaonrocks 1 point2 points  (3 children)

You can add 2 more:

  • does it serve others without being at our expense ?
  • does it serve us without being at others expense ?

I've been asking these questions when I want to try new things a forge new habits. Weird things is, if it doesn't do anything for others, aka kind of selfish but harmless, you are a dick.

I've been called egotistical, selfish and childish just because I like to take some 'me' time.

[–]qiang_shi 0 points1 point  (2 children)

That's a bit of a stretch.

You surviving... Selfish.

You surviving without helping others... You're a dick?

Nup... If I survive and not directly affecting others in a negative way I'm winning.

Any indirect negative effects are a function of nature and the part we play in it's mechanism.

[–]gaspaonrocks 0 points1 point  (0 children)

edit: reply was removed because of unfortunate link...

If I survive and not directly affecting others in a negative way I'm winning.

My point exactly, although it might not have been clear. I just pointed that some people cannot stand you to grow and enjoy being awesome without you sharing that.

"u/qiang_shi 's business took off and now he's rich, but can you believe he didn't throw a huge party to celebrate ? What a dick !" => typically said by twisted family members or not so close friends.

"u/qiang_shi 's been working out and it really shows, he must really be self absorbed" => said some insecure plate or LTR.

Both those cases cause no harm to anyone. Yet some people, that you should toss out anyway, will find a way to turn it in negative ways.

[–]gyzarcg 6 points7 points  (5 children)

I have to disagree that “the best ethical guideline is one that is mutually shared by a large community”. There have been many large groups in history who have committed ethical atrocities. I see this as a logical fallacy. I actually think individual responsibility for ones own morality is incredibly important and illuminating.

I agree with you that “doing things you regard as immoral, will wreak havoc on yourself psychologically”. Interesting topic

[–]1-Fidelio- 3 points4 points  (2 children)

You're breaking this apart in a wrong way; I am not saying that an ethical guideline is a good one simply on the basis of it being shared by a large group.

I am saying that an ethical guideline that is held individually is far less valuable than one that is shared with a group.

If you are the only person in the world who decides not to lie, then everybody will be able to take advantage of you. If you are the only person in your community who doesn't fight and steal, then you are the one without any possessions.

The point is that a good ethical guideline is a better ethical guideline if shared by a group and might even be a contra-productive ethical guideline if held by an individual.

[–]gyzarcg 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I may be breaking it apart wrong, but I also think I respectfully disagree with you. I think that individuals determining ethical guidelines for themselves and oftentimes in contradiction with groupthink can prove far more valuable. I’m thinking of people like Henry David Thoreau, Malcom X, Frédéric Bastiat, etc... the turning of the tide can start on the individual level.

But the true conclusions are probably somewhere in between both extremes and dependent on context. I think there are definitely cases where your breakdown applies, and this is not a black and white issue. It’s part of what makes this topic interesting to me.

[–]1-Fidelio- 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I am not finding fault with your comment, but I'd like to expand on the part where we seem to disagree.

I don't think the ethical guidelines one chooses to follow and thinking are exactly the same thing. As such it's not inherently groupthink.

For example, I'm not particularly fond of my family's habit to be late for meetups and cancel last minute. I've tried and failed to change this. It works better for me to also give myself license to cancel on them or be late. I am not doing the same out of groupthink, but I am adapting to the shared ethical system for meetups.

The golden rule of ethics that I choose to follow is to treat others as they treat me. If someone at work has no problem lying to me, I have no problem lying to them. I'm not going to handicap myself in competition with people that don't play fair.

I definitely agree with you that the best thinking is done on an individual level. I don't think the same goes for level of ethics; that is an intra-personal discipline.

[–]gaspaonrocks 1 point2 points  (1 child)

There have been many large groups in history who have committed ethical atrocities.

Exactly, at some points in history in different parts of the world ethnical cleansing was all the rage.

[–]1-Fidelio- 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I didn't say all group ethics are by definition good ethics. I said that any ethic that is held by a group is more valuable than one held by an individual.

For example, it doesn't make sense to be anti-murder (or indeed anti-ethnic cleansing) if another group holds that ethic against you (ie other people want to murder / ethnically cleanse your group)

[–]CC_ee -4 points-3 points  (3 children)

So you suggest valuing the morals of others over your own? Naaahhh

[–]zyqkvx 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I'm in a league and everyone knows I don't cheat. Others fudge their scores, and drop bad games as though they didn't count. Everyone knows who does this and they look like douchebags. I don't cheat or mention that I don't cheat. I walk around with integrity.

It doesn't matter if it's moral or not. It's a stupid thing to do. So many things work like this. The trick is to not hate the cheaters any more than anyone else does, because if you don't cheat it's tempting to get a chip on your shoulder, which will hurt you a different way you don't want. You will be known as uptight dickhead.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

That's not what he said. Try again.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You can discuss ethics and morality in an abstract way like this. What you can't do is moralize and shame people for their actions.

[–]Scorptice 11 points12 points  (1 child)

There is a reason a reoccuring mantra in this sub is “If she breathes, she is a thot.“

The reason we chant this is not because we believe that's the case. It's to remind us of hypergamy and the disproportionate power dynamic of women and men on the SMP.

I fully understand where you're coming from and you are actually correct on most assumptions. Girls will grieve over a missed guy they were into. Just don't think that it's any form of substantial sadness and even then, the plane jane next door has a circle of friendzoned guys to take the hit, think what the HB7+ has at her disposal.

Pursue what you're interested in and don't waste yourself out of self-righteous pitty.

[–]p3n1x 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Girls will grieve over a missed guy they were into. Just don't think that it's any form of substantial sadness

Wow, if a guy has to think like this so he doesn't dwell on the feelz, that guy needs to work on himself.

When you "are the one" to her, women get severely depressed when "its over". Especially if that guy was the one who "set the bar" / unicorn. (Best ever sexual experience, Best emotional rollercoaster, and Intelligence)

They don't run off to another man (This is more guy think, women are usually in man-hating mode at this point) they run off to women that can make them feel better. She has no female friends you say? Well, then they go full introvert for a period of time.

You don't have to walk away with guilt, walk away knowing YOU ARE/WERE THE PRIZE.

If one has to cover up the TRUTH with mantra's, then you are still a weak bloopy fuck.

[–]TheBadGoy 11 points12 points  (1 child)

I shared a mental trick yesterday, think of all the times a girl has dumped you for Chad without notice. Women have no mercy when it comes to branch swinging so why should you? If you wanna feel bad about someone, feel bad about all the guys she has friendzoned or is taking money and time from, while she is sucking your dick.

I've been on the losing end of a branch swing, call me jaded or whatever, but those cold eyes and cold voices telling me to fuck off, always serve me as a reminder.

"Only those who have seen their women completely turn on them, will know the true meaning of AWALT"

[–]p3n1x 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Or just sack up and don't feel bad at all? Why would you ever "feel bad" for a weaker man?

Either teach him or crush him.

[–]Endorsed ContributorKeffirLime 11 points12 points  (9 children)

It's like, are we any better than the women who keep orbiters around?

Orbiters keep themselves around, as do woman we plate.

They both know they're not getting what they want, yet persist.

If I drive on a road that's got a plethora of "dangerous road ahead" signs, I have to take responsibility for myself when I put it over the cliff.

[–]womans_algorithm 9 points10 points  (8 children)

You're nitpicking. Orbiters orbit because they think that's how they will get their oneitis. The girls are not exactly innocent, they lead their orbiters on, dangling a carrot of sex in front of orbiters head. Orbiters have hope, but are just being played.

Plates plate because they think that's how they will get their oneitis. The men are not exactly innocent, they lead their plates on, dangling a carrot of commitment in front of plates head. Plates have hope, but are just being played.

NAMALT, NAWALT? Sure, some men tell their plates what to expect, but so do some women to their orbiters.

If I drive on a road that's got a plethora of "dangerous road ahead" signs, I have to take responsibility for myself when I put it over the cliff.

Orbiters and plates largely don't see those signs, they live up in their heads, imagining things.

[–]Endorsed ContributorKeffirLime 5 points6 points  (6 children)

Orbiters orbit because they think that's how they will get their oneitis.

So as I said, they keep themselves around.

plates plate because they think that's how they will get their oneitis

So they keep themselves around.

Orbiters and plates largely don't see those signs, they live up in their heads, imagining things.

So now others must take responsibility because they can't take responsibility for themselves? That's a feminine way of thinking.

Plates wanting commitment and orbiters are by definition people who despite the signals persist in the hopes that their devotion will be rewarded, they feel entitled. Iv'e been good so I deserve commitment/sex. Life doesn't work that way. If you keep yourself around without getting any you're only setting yourself up for disappointment.

[–]womans_algorithm 3 points4 points  (5 children)

My point was on the other side of equation - women leading orbiters on and men leading plates on.

[–]1ozaku7 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Both genders lead each other on or let others lead them on. What's new?

[–]womans_algorithm 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I was arguing that you can't put your hands up and say "I have no guilt whatsoever, she lead herself on.", while you were also leading her on. So it's not just orbiter's/plate's fault that they stayed in the relationship, but also your own. First comment made it look like it's only orbiter's/plate's fault.

[–]1ozaku7 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I agree that it's both fault, so who should be pissed at who in the end? At the other, both, or just themselves?

[–]womans_algorithm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Completely depends on their mentality.

If they are BP, than the other - typical AFC.

If they are RP (accepted that people do that), at themselves for not seeing it for what it is.

So I don't know where you're leading me with your questions.

[–]p3n1x 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure, some men tell their plates what to expect, but so do some women to their orbiters.

This should be the real focus. If you are a "unicorn" to the other person, being upfront goes right out the window. The other person creates a personality that will "one day" "be seen" and capture the amazing creature. Reality is fucking GONE.

On another coin altogether, not all woman are consciously aware of that carrot being dangled. Waking yourself up to certain truths sometimes blinds you to others fantasies, we forget that a shitload of people believe without a doubt in "platonic" relationships.

[–]U-94 12 points13 points  (3 children)

Girls who get attached quickly are either 1) unattractive or 2) psycho needy. You could say the same for guys however, the attraction bit is skewed because even a 6 will be in demand at some point as a female, not so with dudes. In the history of my own life, any girl who was really into me was ugly or desperate for a boyfriend - the attractive ones moved on immediately.

[–]p3n1x 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Solipsism based on your perception of your SMV.
A girl getting quickly attached to a badass motherfucker does not make them "psycho needy". It is the idea of "a unicorn".

[–]U-94 1 point2 points  (1 child)

But as he casually cheats on her, she'll flip her shit on him. He'll care even less. She'll care even more out of possessiveness, etc.

[–]p3n1x 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Still fucking up, you can't cheat if you set the boundaries correctly from the start.

She'll care even more out of possessiveness

So what, it is natures dance. Take it as a compliment and not a boys point of view of "crazy".

[–]Chitlinsandgravy 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Have you considered the positive impact you've had on their lives? Even a plate. If you stayed in your lane, push-pulled but weren't toxic, she enjoyed your company etc, what's to regret?

[–]JerryLawlerPigFace 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I’ve been dealing with similar feelings. It sucks in a way.

Back in my full blown beta days (currently recovering) I would never have been in the position of being the gatekeeper. Of sex or a relationship. It was always me chasing. This of course inevitably ended with rejection each time for me, and I felt awful.

Now, I’m getting to be in a position of valuing myself, my time, and looking at each interaction with girls as if they are on a job interview. Applying to try to win my time, attention, sex, and possibly even a title down the road. The problem is that now, as I talk to them with my emotional guard up, resistant to catching feels, it makes them chase and fall for me, which in turn, turns me off.

So you’re essentially damned if you do, damned if you don’t. If you chase, you get rejected and feel bad. If they chase, they get attached quickly and it scares you off, which makes you feel bad for having to tell them you’re not really into them.

I’m still trying to figure out how to get around this. The only answer I have is that these girls would drop you in a second for the slightest misstep on your part, or just for an opportunity to bed an alpha. If you’re going to feel bad either way, might as well be on the gatekeeper side and let things end with some pride rather than feeling like a inferior beta.

[–]Robster25 7 points8 points  (0 children)

So it kind of leads to this cognitive dissonance, where I don't want to see them again, but I feel like shit for blowing them off. In the end I'm not going to do something I don't want to. The 'sadness' comes from imagining they'll probably spend a decent amount of time trying to figure out "what they did wrong" or "what's wrong with them". It's like I'm punishing them for trying. This is based on personal experience from my blue-pill days on the flip side, and seeing it as a third party.

I believe that's the burden of men. We tend to care for weak/sad females, because female weakness appeals to our protective side. I had the same thought many times, but I got burned enough times to sort it out very fast when it appears.

You have to have one thing in mind: Women are ruthless and they rely on you for having "feelings" for them.

Everytime you have that thought, think about the males she kicked to the curb. She cuts them out of her life without an afterthought. She might feel bad for one day and then "Oh! There is another dick! This guy looks hot!" and you are part of the past.

And I'm not trying to be sexist here, "but" (of course this is sexist): I think women lack the capability to reflect what they did wrong in life. There were too many situations in my life where the woman was obviously at fault, but she always blamed others/the circumstances etc. They only live for themselves with an "fuck the world"-attitude and so should you when it comes to women. It is just leveling the playing field.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[deleted]

[–]p3n1x 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your women may be disappointed or sad after they finally realize you aren't going to put a ring on their finger and move on--but if they're quality women, there's no reason they can't find a man who will, and at least then they'll probably make a better choice because they realize what it's like to be with an alpha and not a beta.

Many don't realize shit, men are the same. They lost their unicorn, period, and get bitter. They carry a bag of emotional fuckery.

A lot of guys here need to refresh themselves on Alpha Widows

[–]Master_Elrond 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It sucks I know but the universe is indifferent. Walk in, get yours, ignore the bullshit, walk out... Better to be dark triad Chad than beta Billy.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I guess best thing to do is to be also a good friend.

If you doesnt want realtionship with your plates, be brave and diplomatic to convey the message in a right way.

Of course, they are hurt, but again, you are hurt when you are in the relationship but your gf isnt completely compatible to you.

Been there, and risen my standards, and stumbled upon woman who completely suit me for now.

My advice is, be a man, and be a human, also a friend. Help them to be part of your life, and if you dont want realtionship, encourage them to find one.

[–]conflagratorX 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I feel no remorse for people that lie to me. And if you want to just hear big fat lie - ask women about her n-count.

[–]TheRedRand 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The issue is this: sexual strategy is amoral. People are not amoral.

Animals are amoral. Humans should strive to meet their animalistic needs (sex, food, shelter) in a moral manner.

You feel bad about using girls and treating them badly because, even though you have an animalistic sexual side, you are still human and have morals, empathy, and understand pain.

[–]pathfinder52 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I want to thank you for bringing attachment types to my attention. I really am gratefull. I have a LTR that seems immune to most strategies, including soft nexting and instead games me so hard I was thinking she’s a redpill master... why I’m in an LTR is beside the point, but reading about Avoidant Attachment Type opened my eyes! Thanks so much!

[–]womans_algorithm 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I also think a mistake I make is to not tell them straight up from the beginning that I'm not interested in commitment.

/u/NomBok, since your post makes me think this wasn't one time occurrence, why are you not telling them about your intentions? Aren't you playing them?

[–]187oddfuture 9 points10 points  (0 children)

The whole idea of plating is that you tell them straight up you’re not committing, and then they stay for as long as it takes for them to realize you were serious and that you won’t compromise your boundary.

[–]francisco_DANKonia 1 point2 points  (0 children)

How does somebody even form connections if they don't want connections?

[–]1Jaereth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You can avoid most of the nonsense by just managing expectations and always planning on breaking up.