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Why is masculinity better preserved in minority and lower socioeconomic cultures? (self.asktrp)

submitted by Tommy_407

I'm currently living in a halfway house, in Brooklyn, coming out of drug rehab and I can't help but notice a very prevalent trait that seems to exist amongst the Black and Hispanic men, in regards to their relationships to their female counterparts

Many of these men are former gang members, and are coming here from out of prison. It seems that they have fully retained all the confidence in their masculinity that many Caucasian counterparts are losing in the age of 3rd wave feminism.

Just from being friends with them, watching and seeing how they interact with their women, and their attitudes, it seems as if in these cultures the women "know their place" much more than middle class white females. It appears to me that the concepts of masculinity in TRP come much more natural to these men, and they are not afraid of enforcing them. They also seem to be fairly good at attracting their litter of plates.

Is it related to feminism and education? I also realize that many gang members have sociopathic tendencies, and or dark triad, so perhaps it could be a bit of this.

Is this a misperception or a fallacy on my part?


[–]HolographicWhaleTail 57 points58 points  (17 children)

As a person who grew up in a poorer Hispanic and black neighborhood, I think it's just that we're pretty disconnected from mainstream white culture. Being from Texas, I've seen the same from a lot of white people, especially in smaller, more rural towns. While the rest of the country is shifting more towards atheism, these white boys down here are still at church every Sunday. While most white American men seem to avoid violent confrontation and see fighting as immature, dangerous and uneccessary, a Southern white guy sitting in some redneck bar will gladly ask you to go outside with him to handle whatever problem you two are having.

3rd wave feminism and feminism in general, I believe, is a bored, upper class white woman thing. It's their way of getting a seat at the oppression table with the poor people and the minorities.

[–]RunawayGrain 9 points10 points  (6 children)

While most white American men seem to avoid violent confrontation and see fighting as immature, dangerous and uneccessary, a Southern white guy sitting in some redneck bar will gladly ask you to go outside with him to handle whatever problem you two are having.

It's amusing when a guy from other parts of the country runs into this, or gets bitchy because some dude is busting his balls and he doesn't understand how it works. You gotta give as good as you get or these guys will walk all over you.

[–]hellnomrrmrm 1 point2 points  (5 children)

you mean fight for real?

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[deleted]

    [–]RealRational 2 points3 points  (2 children)

    Where, specifically?

    [–]flat6turbo 5 points6 points  (1 child)

    protip: look for the dirt parking lot full of pickup trucks.

    [–]RealRational 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    So... I have to literally leave my state.

    [–]sunkindonut149 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Not sure if srs. Of course bar brawls and white getos exist. I've seen all kinds of people getting tight and aggro in public not just minorities

    [–]1grubek 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Not only 3rd wave feminism, but from the start feminism has been a rich girl thing.

    You can check the origin of most first wave feminist and even how activists poor women were against it.

    [–]Willow-girl 3 points4 points  (1 child)

    3rd wave feminism and feminism in general, I believe, is a bored, upper class white woman thing.

    Hey, don't leave out the Bernie Bros! You'll hurt their witto feelings.

    [–]mrpoopistan 7 points8 points  (0 children)

    Actually, modern American socialism exists in a low-hum conflict with Third Wave Feminism.

    The current socialist critique of feminism is basically "identity politics is why we lose."

    [–]hellnomrrmrm 0 points1 point  (5 children)

    I'm going there then. A lgbt told me wouldn't go there!! ! so i should have guessed it was good there

    but how about the women in texas (whiteish ones)? are they hot?

    austin texas for instance?

    [–]HolographicWhaleTail 1 point2 points  (3 children)

    You're asking the wrong guy, I'm not really into white women.

    [–]hellnomrrmrm 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    why not? how about all that are non-asian non-indian non-black?

    [–]HolographicWhaleTail 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    why not?

    I think people find what they grew up around to be attractive. I grew up around Latinas and black women, so they're what I'm into.

    how about all that are non-asian non-indian non-black?

    So the Latinas then? Texas, after California, probably has the finest Mexican girls in the US.

    [–]hellnomrrmrm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    i live in cali the feminist heaven part and girls are ugly as fuck. in my 25 miles radius, less than 10% of ALL GIRLS were hb7 and over.

    [–]detachedbymarriage 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Austin is a nice single city but is not like the rest of Texas. A major chunk of the area comes from the tech industries out of the west coast states.

    Hipster town by all definition.

    [–]Senior EndorsedVasiliyZaitzev 14 points15 points  (0 children)

    Hard living makes for hard men. Soft living makes for soft men. A lot of upper middle class white kids are being fed a bunch of bullshit about feminism, white privilege guilt, etc., while mummy and daddy attend to their every need, and so they never have to develop any survival skills.

    [–]Occams_Stubble 15 points16 points  (1 child)

    If one comes from a strata of society that is closer to violence, where calling the police to resolve disputes is frowned upon and men are left to their own devices to settle the issue you are going to find masculine alpha attributes are much more necessary.

    [–]mrpoopistan 14 points15 points  (0 children)

    I'll disagree about calling the police being "frowned upon." It's a question of whether calling the police is likely to even be effective. For example, rural whites are more likely to maintain traditional masculine norms even if they live in relatively low-crime areas. The reason they maintain them is while crime is low in their areas, the likelihood of the police effectively intervening in a timely manner is also low.

    Having lived at various times around rural whites and urban blacks, my impression has always been that both would gladly let someone else deal with situations if they had even the slightest glimmer of hope that the police would be capable of doing more than just cataloging the bodies and fucking up the investigation.

    It's not so much the likelihood of violence as it is the personal conviction, ingrained from childhood, that the police aren't good at their job. The majority of human beings -- even men -- given the opportunity will concede authority, but that authority has to be able to demonstrate its own effectiveness.

    [–]redhazardlights 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    Your sample is not random, so yes you are in danger of extrapolating things which cannot be proven across these cultures as a whole.

    But I would add this: in my completely anecdotal and unprovable and unpopular (at RP, at least) opinion, men in middle class white society have used the internet to emasculate themselves as much as feminism has done anything to actually hurt them. Everybody's a victim, these days.

    [–]D0ngl3 7 points8 points  (4 children)

    Is it though?

    Read any book written by a reformed convict. From what I've gathered, one big hit to the black community is that they have absent fathers. This makes them raised by women without a male role model to mimic. That's why the "nigga moments" (see The Boondocks for clarification, I'm not invoking the N word on my own) happen so often; insecure young black men using a gun as a surrogate for masculine power, eager to show off in order to prove themselves.

    Meanwhile, affluent culture dominates sports. I'm not talking about the athletes themselves, I'm talking about the white coaches they report to. I'm taking about the reporters on Sportcenter. Huge masculine culture.

    Anyway, I think what you're really seeing are subcultures where the females don't have enough privilege to call the shots, so the men APPEAR all RP'd but are just insecure and eager to look in charge... by dominating women? Weak. True alphas show kindness to women, children, and animals. They don't have shit to prove.

    [–]sunkindonut149 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Yup - the "stop the itchy finger" stickers that proliferate around here are a testament to how it is mentally weak to use a gun as a surrogate for real power.

    [–]Neeraj1993 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    True alphas show kindness to women, children, and animals. They don't have shit to prove.

    No. A true alpha doesn't give a fuck, so if any of these three are annoying him, he wouldn't mind putting them at their place. He doesn't tolerate their bull shit all the time.

    Ignoring helps sometimes, but if you never retaliate, you would become an easy target.

    [–]D0ngl3 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I disagree. An alpha absolutely gives a fuck. Why else is he successful, shredded, intriguing, a force of nature? And ultimately, what does he give a fuck about? A man cares, effortlessly, about the things he loves. He also doesn't take shit, this is true. But whatever, we don't need to see eye to eye on this

    [–]Neeraj1993 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    I have made the exact same observations and you have put it so damn well. Awesome.

    [–]Sensei_Hensei 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    grabs popcorn

    [–]TRP VanguardCyralea 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    The answer is really simple. In poorer societies there isn't a gravy-train of betas to steal tax dollars from. You don't have basic bitches that can pursue a liberal arts degree, spend two years travelling and then come back to work at Starbucks. There are fewer handouts.

    This creates an environment where the individual alpha is far more valued for his worth. Attaching yourself to a successful person is that much more vital. Women are excellent at pragmatic self-preservation, evolution built them that way.

    Look at black society from the 50's onward. Before the welfare state the definition of a black alpha was the strong family patriarch. A generation of single-mothers living completely dependant on the government teat changed that.

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    because they need it for survival

    [–]tylertgbh 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Most people in this sub wont like this answer but I remember reading an article years ago about why men who were lower socioeconomic status consumed media that was more violent, aggressive and sexist compared to more affluent men. I looked for this article, but I couldnt find it. I'll try to look more.

    The reasoning essentially was that lower class men used and valued physical strength, aggresive and violent behaviour to express their masculinity because these were the only or best ways they could demonstrate power. While on the other hand, wealthier/upper class men expressed masculinity by demonstrating power in other ways like by buying and owning valuable things (like a Jaguar), managing others in a business or owning business, or by being politically active and having a relationship with political decision makers.

    TLDR: Violent and aggressive behaviour is the only way for low socioeconomic status men to express power and therefore their masculinity while men of upper socioeconomic status express power (and therefore masculinity) with wealth, ownership, career advancement, political influence, etc

    [–]MeatCurtainRod 3 points4 points  (11 children)

    No it isn't. You can be damned sure masculinity is in the upper echelons of society as well. A simple analogy is Trump. He is masculine to a fault, which is why feminists and SJWs hate him so much.

    Violence != masculine.

    [–]All_Ads_Deceive 4 points5 points  (9 children)

    How is Trump masculine? Because he's loud and says tough things?

    Trump and his sons are BB to the extreme

    [–]MeatCurtainRod 6 points7 points  (8 children)

    How is Trump masculine? Because he's loud and says tough things? Trump and his sons are BB to the extreme

    LOL. I specifically said "masculine to a fault". If you can't get over his offensiveness, you have a lot of maturing to do.

    [–]All_Ads_Deceive 4 points5 points  (7 children)

    I've never been offended by Trump. He's just not masculine

    [–]Thizzlebot 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    He's just not masculine

    lol I guess women let him grab them by the pussy because he's more feminine than pauly shore? Naw it's because his SMV is high. How the fuck can you not say he's alpha he's the fucking president lol

    [–]All_Ads_Deceive 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    He's rich and powerful. That's why he gets women. In 2016, masculinity isn't required to be powerful.

    Remember, he tried to fuck a girl by taking her furniture shopping. If that isn't the biggest BB failure I've ever heard of, I don't know what is.

    Imagine if a poster on this forum said "I got a HB9 phone number, should I invite her furniture shopping?"

    [–]MeatCurtainRod 4 points5 points  (4 children)

    So what, is a frat boy your version of masculine? Are we gonna focus on one part of the picture rather than the whole thing?

    [–]All_Ads_Deceive 6 points7 points  (3 children)

    Most frat boys aren't masculine. Pence and Sessions are good examples of masculine politicians. Trump is very powerful but in 2016 you don't need masculinity to have power.

    Imagine if Trump wasn't rich, would he be an Alpha male? No, he would be the attention seeking little dweeb that we all knew in school.

    [–]vox_veritas 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    Imagine if Trump wasn't rich, would he be an Alpha male? No, he would be the attention seeking little dweeb that we all knew in school.

    While I agree with the ultimate confusion conclusion you're implying, I think this is a tautological argument.

    [–]MeatCurtainRod 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Like I said. Masculine to a fault. We aren't talking about alpha here. We are talking about masculinity. If you are offensive to feminists, you're doing it right.

    I'm not defending trump, but he is a figure of authority. That gets most panties wet.

    [–]Senior ContributorSkorchZang 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    Very good observation.

    I think the answer has a lot to do with how altruistic, faux-noble, and compliant the core white middle classes tend to be. They believe in Civilization. They think of The Establishment as a legitimate power that is looking out for everyone's good. They'll typically admit it's not perfect or anything, but it's the best we have yadda yadda. They honestly think being a "good boy" is the way to get by and get on in life.

    Minorities and lower socioeconomic strata have a different genetic makeup (not as altruistic or as compliant with pacification/taming) and different experience, where The Establishment has been fucking them hard since Day 1, and everyone in those groups full well knows it. No illusions, they have no option but live in the real world.

    Often when The Establishment tries to feed these groups their blue pills, they just have no effect because the populations they're trying to attack have a contemptuous aversion to all this high falutin "justice and morals" bullshit, plus a natural immunity to any kind of complex brainwashing due to lower IQ.

    [–]FUCK_YEA_GLITTER 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    This makes so much sense.

    [–]JackGetsIt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    It's not. Your just seeing much more parading of simpler tribal masculine traits and your seeing a lot of fundamental survival traits (tribalism, violence, intimidation) come out because people are desperate, and educationally under serviced.

    [–]clearheadeddd 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    probably because those cultures need to survive

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Because with increased SES, the state gradually replaces the males function and role.