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INTJs - Conversations and Game (self.asktrp)

submitted by trp_1138

For all INTJs, or even non-INTJ redpillers who get bored with banal conversation: How do you do it? How do you converse with the average women without wanting to pound nails into your eyes and chew ground glass?

Do you switch to average woman game? Or do you just boost your SMV so high that the time from meet to close is so short you don't have to endure the mental anguish?

Or do you just seek out the purple squirrels? If you only hunt purple squirrels, where do you hunt them?

Even when I get IOIs from 7s and 8s, I start talking to them and get bored. Then I just eject without even wanting to close.

http://www.16personalities.com/intj-personality

All viewpoints and suggestions are welcome.


Edit: This is fabulous! Your responses have been fantastic. This is what I've leaned so far:

Concepts:

Amused Mastery - The amused part is just as important as the mastery part. I should be engaging women for my amusement, not from the "I'm going to make you love me, dammit!" perspective.

Abundance - Yes even when I have zero plates, I need to maintain the concept of abundance. This will prevent me from being outcome dependent.

IOIs - Watch their actions with respect to physical space. Be wary of women trying to pull me into their emotional space without giving me any physical space.

Pacing - Most women won't get into deep conversations within days or even weeks of knowing someone. Don't expect too much too soon.

Covert communications - Context over content. Women are sizing me up by all the nonverbal cues I'm giving off.

Enjoyment - if both sides aren't enjoying the conversation, eject.

Strategy:

  • Relax. Slow down. Make it all about me. Entertain myself with the conversation.

  • Quality over quantity.

  • Use analogy questions to stimulate an intimate conversation.

  • Refine my hunting grounds. Bookstore, library, writing circles, etc.

  • Pay less attention to the actual content of the conversation and focus more on the nonverbal. Keep it light and fun.

  • Watch the nonverbal IOIs. Make sure that they are physical IOIs and not emotional.

  • Be wary of overthinking things. Consider making a bold move to see if they are nervous or shy.


[–][deleted] 23 points24 points  (1 child)

Fellow INTJ here.

If you get bored, stop talking. It's that easy. Just look out the window and do your normal deep contemplation. Do you really want to keep talking with someone who bores you?

Try taking the conversation deeper in intimacy if it feels boring. Using analogies helps. I realized that analogies are a great way of talking to emotional people.

If you were pizza, what toppings would you have? If you were a sushi roll which one would it be? What do each ingredients represent?

What are you afraid of? What are you really afraid of?

If you were a drink what would you be? I'd say Irish Coffee. Explain how the caffeine is the intellectual stimulation while the alcohol is the sexual/emotional stimulation.

Is it the conversation or the girl that's boring?

I don't talk to women that are boring to talk to. It's that simple.

There is no average woman game. Game is internal. Game is understanding that you're judging potential mates on personality traits, not how hot they are. You can figure out their body within the first 10 seconds of seeing her.

You don't "boost" your SMV. That's a set number that can be slowly worked on over time by working out, getting promoted, meditating, actually increasing your value. When you're socializing, you're signalling your SMV.

I've never had to deal with "mental anguish" of closing on "average women" with "banal conversation." You should really set higher standards for yourself. Quality over quantity.

What do you consider IOI's? Remember, ignore what they say and watch what they do. If they say they want to close space with you but don't put in any effort to close physical space, move on. They're trying to pull you into their emotional space without giving you any physical space.

[–]trp_1138[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Wow, thanks for the well thought out response!

It's funny, I've actually used similar analogy questions in the past. Must remember to bring those back in to the conversation. If I've known them for a while, I'll do the "How are you doing?" wait for her to respond, then "How are you doing, really?" which can often lead to a deeper level of intimacy.

And you're absolutely right. I should just move on. However, I am also trying to see if there is some fundamental flaw in my approach. And as you pointed out, and obvious flaw is: go dig for gold where the gold is!

As far as the IOIs go, they are physical. Hair touching, head-tilting to expose the neck, changing posture, or even straight-up puppy-dog eyes.

[–][deleted] 19 points20 points  (6 children)

Even when I get IOIs from 7s and 8s, I start talking to them and get bored. Then I just eject without even wanting to close.

Your expectations are WAY too high. Chicks don't like to get into deep conversations with people they don't know. The closer you get to a girl, the more of her intelligence she may reveal to you. That takes time though, and I've never met a woman that goes balls (intellectually speaking) deep within the first 24-hours...Or even weeks of knowing a someone.

Slow down. Learn to have fun and entertain YOURSELF in the conversation and the vibes will rub off on her. The key to Amused Mastery is AMUSEMENT. If you're having fun, other people (especially chicks) will to.

Or do you just seek out the purple squirrels? If you only hunt purple squirrels, where do you hunt them?

Refine your hunting grounds, you might do better at a bookstore, library, writing circle, lecture, college, etc. Women that frequent establishments like these will be VERY interested in having some intellectual conversation...But they're shy. As long as you can stimulate their emotions and make them laugh, they'll come around.

Or they're just not that smart, which is fine too. You still have a plate or potential pivot to find better chicks.

Do you switch to average woman game? Or do you just boost your SMV so high that the time from meet to close is so short you don't have to endure the mental anguish?

Conversations take a lot out of people. The pain your feeling just means you're not used to surface level conversations.

Why? Because initial conversations have very little to do with words and everything to do with nonverbal communication. If your brain is focused on too much at once, you'll just wear yourself out. This is why you have to learn to disconnect yourself from outcomes and expectations.

And don't forget, she's sizing you up under the pretext of a conversation. That's what "game" is, keeping up the charade of civil conversation while pecking order and attraction are being determined in the background (nonverbal behavior). When you become really good with women, you don't even see the charade/play as "game", it's just you being you (i.e. not boring).

tl;dr- Lower your expectations of what conversations are and learn to enjoy the game, pick places that smart people like to hang out and socialize, and build up your mental stamina (talk to more women).

[–]trp_1138[S] 4 points5 points  (5 children)

Great perspective. This actually gives me a whole new direction. And coincidentally it ties in with the powertalk thread going on.

Rather than trying to converse solely verbally, if I put my attention on the nonverbal communications, this will make the verbal part much less critical. Making it easier to let go of the expectations of quality.

Yes I am too cerebral for my own good.

Edit: Thinking more about the points you raised, I can see that a large part of what is tripping me up are my expectations. Being outcome dependent instead of just being in a flow state. Thanks for the insight!

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Being cerebral is good. You just have to tune down the mental noise so your brain can do what it needs to do in the background.

[–]steadymotion 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Actually you might be rating girls too highly. 8s should be attractive enough for you to just enjoy talking to them (because it doesn't matter what's being said, you're just enjoying her sexiness). If you find yourself easily bored with them they're probably 5s and 6s. Aim for sexier women, women who make you so horny you just enjoy being with her. Don't even bother gaming a girl if she doesn't turn you on big time. You shouldn't be bored with girls you're gaming. If you are, game better girls. You're worth it.

I don't even hit on a girl unless she's at least an 8 to me.

[–][deleted]  (2 children)

[deleted]

    [–]steadymotion 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    So physical attraction is very important, but there is a separate attraction (call it mental attraction I suppose) which is also a necessary condition for you. Fair enough.

    I agree, but it gets messy talking about this kind of thing because things aren't so clear cut. It's blurry. For example, when a girl tends to blush or look down or other submissive behaviours around you, does that make you more physically attracted or mentally attracted? It's a physical action from her, but it portrays a submissive mindset, so she's communicating on both the physical and the mental channels.

    I guess the best way I can think of to define these things is static attraction and dynamic attraction, where static is her actual physical traits which remain basically the same such as height, weight, hair, body shape etc. and dynamic is her actions and behaviours which are determined mostly by her mindset (social conditioning, reaction to current environment including you, genetic tendencies, etc.)

    It makes sense that everyone would be judging each other on both static and dynamic at all times, since both are signals of genetic quality. I guess the important thing is to always go for girls who are very attractive to you in BOTH channels so you'll never have the problem of being too bored to continue interacting with her (although eventually boredom may come, hopefully it'll be after you've had many sessions of great fulfilling sex)

    [–]1cray-cray-cray 9 points10 points  (0 children)

    For an INTJ, flirting is a learned skill. So is smalltalk. So is pretty much most surface level communication.

    It's one of those things like skiing. As you get better at it, you start enjoying it more. From your viewpoint, you essentially learn to make something out of nothing.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

    [–]mrust 2 points3 points  (3 children)

    INTJ/INTP here depending on the day. I used to have this same viewpoint, but actually what I realized made the conversation boring for me was lack of feedback. If the girl is laughing at my jokes I find it much easier to plow on. I know this is bad because it's seeking external validation.. It is what it is though.

    Now I actually prefer chatty types because I just call them out and make fun of the dumb shit they inevitably say. I do this in a teasing way that's fun for both of us.

    If they are shy or quiet or just not smart enough to get any of your clever quips or innuendos then you need to adjust your game and go more physical.

    [–]trp_1138[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

    Yes, lack of feedback. Lack of feedback plus being outcome dependent is what's tripping me up. Using humor and going more physical is a great strategy.

    I hear what you're saying about external validation, but I don't think it is bad in this instance. We are social animals and I think that the validation is an important part of the interaction. The give-and-take is what makes it rewarding for me.

    [–]mrust 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    There are instances where it will hurt you.. You will trip yourself up. I had this happen once when I met a girl who seemed really into me. She would giggle at almost everything I said. Really easy to talk to and so I invited her out.

    She showed up and we had maybe 40 minutes before she said she had to go and was really busy, etc.. BTW this is why I now avoid lawyers and doctors. So I thought, ok whatever I misread everything and she's not into me, NEXT.

    Two weekends later she turns up at an out of town conference that I'm attending. I think nothing of it, but towards the end of the night everyone's getting drunk and she seeks me out. But her mood has changed completely. Not giggling at all. It was like talking to a stone wall. I bounce around, but there's no reciprocation to my kino.

    Well, take a moment to think where I screwed up.

    Do you know why her mood changed?

    It's because she was nervous. She wanted me to take her back to my room. Simple as that. As INTJ we are always overthinking the situation. And this is where that dependence on feedback will hurt you.

    [–]trp_1138[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    This is pure gold! You hit the nail on the head. I trip myself up constantly with overthinking things.

    Onward and damn the torpedos!

    [–]rockmasterflex 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    All of these things you have in your edited post are the same techniques anyone would employ. Labeling yourself INTJ has done nothing for this discussion.

    [–]trp_1138[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    I hear what you are saying. And yes, the universal truths still apply.

    What I was looking for was for other INTJs to explain those truths to me in a way I can understand.

    Then I went back and tried to apply their advice to general redpill theory so that everyone could benefit.

    [–]LibertarianLibertine 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    What are purple squirrels?

    [–]trp_1138[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    Purple squirrel is a term used by employment recruiters to describe a job candidate with precisely the right education, experience, and qualifications that perfectly fits a job’s multifaceted requirements.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_squirrel

    It's used as kind of a joke because in today's environment employers want everything for nothing.

    Actually, I should have used the term Unicorn.

    [–]autowikibot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Purple squirrel:


    Purple squirrel is a term used by employment recruiters to describe a job candidate with precisely the right education, experience, and qualifications that perfectly fits a job’s multifaceted requirements. In theory, this prized “purple squirrel” could immediately handle all the expansive variety of responsibilities of a job description with no training and would allow businesses to function with fewer workers.

    Image i


    Interesting: Squirrel | The Nut Job | List of Animal Crossing characters | List of Sesame Street Muppets

    Parent commenter can toggle NSFW or delete. Will also delete on comment score of -1 or less. | FAQs | Mods | Magic Words

    [–]laere 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Whats the difference between physical and emotional IOI's

    [–]peppepcheerio 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    I have an INTJ ex that likes to keep me on his back burner. He rarely is interested in banal conversations and often proposes philosophical banter. If the girl can respond with equal intellect, it's good. If she can't, either say bye or hello, Plate.

    [–]trp_1138[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    What do you find attractive about your INTJ?

    [–]peppepcheerio 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I appreciate his thought processes. He is a great listener and let's me disagree with him. Very thoughtful and I enjoy his thought provoking discussions. He's a good go-to person when I am having issues.

    He has taken time to improve his ability to be nonjudgmental which is one of his biggest qualities.

    [–]whoops_fap 0 points1 point  (3 children)

    Intj reporting in, unfortunately.

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]whoops_fap 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      It has a lot of cons. Tested INTJ for a long time now (4+ years).

      I'd rather be some run of the mill shitty extrovert TBH. Life would be way easier.

      [–]md619 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

      I don't think flirting is boring at all. In fact, if you find it boring than you're probably doing it wrong. Tension, especially sexual tension, is the heart of flirting. Push, pull. Tease her. Remember that what you say is never as important as how you're saying it. If you're just going through the motions with the boring, usual "where are you from" "what do you do" lines than of course you're going to be bored. Have fun with it.

      There's a great video from RSD's Tyler where he talks about how he will talk to girls for ~45 minutes about nutrition, which is one of his passions. You would think any girl would eject 5 minutes in, but because he's super passionate, knows how to talk and has great game, he sucks them into his world. By the end shes actually taking notes on what he's saying.

      Use that INTJ stoicism and mystery we tend to create around ourselves to your advantage. Women love a man that can't figure out and they love a man they can't manipulate emotionally (i.e failing shit tests).

      Just don't fall into the trap of "okay, I'll just stand here in the corner of this club by myself because I'm so mysterious". No dude, that's just socially awkward. Going out is a time for FUN.

      Or do you just boost your SMV so high that the time from meet to close is so short you don't have to endure the mental anguish?

      This helps too. We like to do things as efficiently as possible so do everything you can to cut out the middle man.

      If that doesn't work, well then you'll just have to suck it up if you wanna get laid. Tough life, get over it. We all have to make sacrifices.

      [–]Blake55 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

      INTJ here - that description seemed freakishly accurate of how I operate. I achieve a lot of really awesome stuff with my time, but that point on difficulty in forming romantic relationships is huge for me. Lately I have just been using a lot of game type stuff - being aloof is a good way to overcome my own anxiety and also give off a good vibe.