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INSIGHTFULFeminists want us to define these ugly sexual encounters as rape. Don’t let them. [Article] (washingtonpost.com)

submitted by snbdmliss


[–][deleted] 46 points47 points  (1 child)

The sad thing is there are real are victims out there whose suffering is diluted by people who make these exaggerated claims :(

[–]grimreaperx2 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Proof that feminist don't really care about or help anyone. They just want attention and things catered to their own liking. In the end they will be buried by their own agenda.

And anyone who thinks that there are good feminists out there link me any article/proof where feminists have done anything to better equality between the sexes and create happiness between the genders.

[–]ecossecho 42 points43 points  (9 children)

Despicable behavior is not always criminal

This is the crux of it, I think. Yes, sometimes women are pressured or manipulated into sex. Sometimes we're really enthusiastic and then see afterwards that we were manipulated and taken advantage of. (Been there. I felt totally violated. It really sucks.) Men who do that are jerks. Total jerks. I understand why women are really angry at them. But criminalizing it isn't going to help, it just makes it harder for anyone to feel safe in their own actions.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[deleted]

    [–]snbdmliss[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    Exactly. Just because something was a mistake, whether you knew it in the moment going into it but still went along with it, or decided it was a mistake later, doesn't make it rape. It was poor decision making, but not rape.

    If women and men would own their decisions and actions, the world would be a better place.

    [–]nomnompuffs 4 points5 points  (4 children)

    Could you explain to me how you were very enthusiastic, and then somehow concluded afterward that you were manipulated or, in your own words, "taken advantage of"?

    Don't interpret this as an attack: I'm asking because I genuinely did not understand how that could be the case.

    [–]ecossecho 7 points8 points  (3 children)

    I went to visit my boyfriend for the weekend and we had a lot of very rough sex. (Totally fine; we were both into it being rough.) Then, later that afternoon, he broke up with me. He told me that he had been thinking about it before I came down, but wanted to see me again before he decided. He never mentioned anything about it before I visited at all, even though we were talking daily.

    So I was sitting there, in pain from being pretty brutally fucked, physically used up, unable to go home until the next day, aware that (knowing him, with the benefit of hindsight) he had probably been planning to do this but had taken the opportunity to screw me a couple more times first.

    Boy oh boy did I learn a lot that day.

    [–]LiaKathryn 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    That is so awful.

    [–]ecossecho 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Thank you. It was definitely a low point for me.

    [–]IceCreamnCakenCake 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    This comment really hit home with me. Something can be morally bereft without being criminal. That doesn't make the action"OK" or excusable. I think this lack of delineation is what confuses the issue. We need a term for sex that has been coerced or initiated in messed up ways without calling it rape. I have had sex that was MUCH rougher than I wanted before with an ex because I knew he would react angrily/ guilt trip/ insinuate I was a horrible girlfriend who didn't love him. I would let him do what he wanted as I actively sobbed at how much things hurt. It took me a long time to recover any interest in sex, honestly. What happened wasn't rape; I said "okay", but it also wasn't right. I wish we all had the language to talk about these experiences.

    I also wish that it was clear that being pressured/wheedled into sex isn't the same as wanting to have sex. So many believe that we say "no" and then can be convinced it means we wanted sex all along. Sometimes that may be the case, but sometimes it's not.

    EDITED for clarity.

    [–]snbdmliss[S] 16 points17 points  (5 children)

    It's nice to see more mainstream articles that tell women to own their actions instead of trying to reclassify them so as to transfer any responsibility they had in the matter onto another person. I saw this article tagged on Facebook of all places and some of the comments below it just blew my mind.

    One of which I feel I should quote because of its absurdity:

    "I hate this article. She is trying to blur boundaries. I think the author is completely overlooking the most important fact - it is at the discretion of the woman to call it 'rape' or 'a mistake' She considers her experiences to be mistakes, and never reported anything, therefore no one was labeled or punished as a rapist. AND - how is punishing non-aggressive rape "trivializing actual sexual violence" That's like saying it's ok to be mugged as long as there wasn't a weapon involved. Does it matter if you were mugged at gunpoint or just mugged? Either way, you got fucked over against your will. I agree, some situations with sex aren't black and white. But when we are teaching our young men how to treat women, OF COURSE we should lean towards caution and respect. If it is all unclear, DON'T DO IT. She does not seem to understand the difference between "encouragement" and "pressure" of sexual activities, and actually proceeding with them without sober, direct consent. No one is saying men should be punished/expelled for TRYING to initiate a sexual encounter. She just randomly throws in a sentence about a student who was expelled for having sex with a "willing" but totally drunk woman...what is your argument, that because in her drunken stupor she said "wheeeee" it's ok? He wouldn't have been expelled for "encouraging" her to have sex."

    Wow, just wow.

    [–]Temuzjin 19 points20 points  (2 children)

    it is at the discretion of the woman to call it 'rape' or 'a mistake'

    "Hm, my boyfriend/church found out that I slept with another guy. Should I tell him that it was a mistake, or should I tell him it was rape?"

    [–]alcockell 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    That type of stuff was literally live and repeated onto Exposing Feminism - one 20something girl was asking a friend how to pin a rape charge on her boyfriend after she cheated on him - and he rescinded an offer to marry.

    Literally using "rape" as "breach of promise".

    [–]SorrybutnotCanadian 8 points9 points  (0 children)

    That's like saying it's ok to be mugged as long as there wasn't a weapon involved.

    This one did make me pause. But the nuance is that the "feminist definition of rape" would include panhandlers and buskers. I think most people would not argue even a persistent (but peaceful/respectful) panhandler was "mugging" someone.

    No one is saying men should be punished/expelled for TRYING to initiate a sexual encounter.

    Yeahhhhh....so we just gonna ignore that EverydayFeminism Post shaming men for starting a conversation?

    [–]Alpha100f 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    If it is all unclear, DON'T DO IT.

    She is right on that one. If you're not sure about your own consent, don't have sex with that guy. Simply as fuck. If you are unsure about your behaviour when drunk, don't drink. If you are not sure about your own consent, the, idk, go cry to your mother or something because your immaturity is palpable.

    [–]Temuzjin 22 points23 points  (11 children)

    This paragraph made me go WTF:

    Ultimately, ensuring that sexual consent is always free of pressure is an impossible goal. Consent advocates already fret that even an explicit “yes” may not be given freely enough. A series of educational campus posters includes the warning that “if they don’t feel free to say ‘No,’ it’s not consent”; a Canadian college campaign cautions that consent is invalid if it’s “muted” or “uncertain” rather than “loud and clear.”

    So let's say that in ten years time these consent advocates have their way. A girl and I have sex and she explicitly consents. Then, later, she feels guilty (the sex was bad, she has a boyfriend, she's a no sex before marriage christian, whatever). So now she can charge me with rape because "I felt pressured into saying 'yes'" or "my 'yes' was uncertain"?

    How on earth am I supposed to prove to a judge (who is usually biased towards the woman's story) that her "yes" was in fact enthusiastic? Will I have to videotape every sexual encounter to avoid false rape charges? Will videotapes even be enough against "I felt pressured to pretend that I was enthusiastic" charges?

    edit: rape is horrible, don't get me wrong, but these kind of "everything is rape" consent advocates make life harder for actual rape victims by trivializing rape.

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

    [removed]

      [–]snbdmliss[S] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

      Yes, this was something also brought up in the original post; many women say no, but really mean yes for various reasons, such as playing harder to get, etc. I don't know the best way to fix that exactly, but I think a good start is to educate women to speak up and say what they actually want or don't want, and to own those decisions and actions. Same goes for men.

      [–]IceCreamnCakenCake 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      It's hard; when I've spoken to my brothers they make it clear that appearing too eager for sex (no matter if you want it or not) devalues a woman. As long as that is true, some women will use no to mean yes.

      [–]SarahC 3 points4 points  (3 children)

      Don't forget the legal trouble you get into for recording someone without their consent...

      [–]Temuzjin 13 points14 points  (1 child)

      "Yes your honor I did consent to being videotaped, but I didn't enthusiastically consent to it."

      edit: "Yes I did sign that contract, but I signed it with an uncertain hand. Therefore it's not valid. You can't prove that my hand wasn't uncertain."

      [–]dreckmal 10 points11 points  (0 children)

      Yes, your honor, I did sign that loan agreement. But the Bank failed to gain my enthusiastic consent. I just wasn't comfortable saying no to them at the time...

      [–]IVIaskerade 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Don't forget the legal trouble you get into for recording someone without their consent...

      I'd rather be hit with the penalty for that than with the penalty for rape.

      [–][deleted]  (2 children)

      [deleted]

        [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

        Much more recent than that https://archive.is/j5O4T

        Honestly, some days I read the press and think we are becoming more stupid by the year. I don't recognise the attitude of college students now, and this garbage about safe spaces and being triggered. Didn't they go there to expand their knowledge and correct errors in their beliefs?

        http://thoughtcatalog.com/joshua-goldberg/2014/10/trivializing-rape-is-literally-rape-you-patriarchal-oppressors/

        There are times when I really understand the MGTOW guys.

        [–]alcockell 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Thanks. We're just waiting for the Geiger counters to stop clicking...

        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        I refused to have sex with drunk girls in college for the same reason. It was kinda disheartening to see them just bone some other guy. But the risk was real.

        [–]agh_missedit 15 points16 points  (3 children)

        I once told a girl friend of mine about an sex encounter that I really should not have gotten myself into. It was a bad decision all the way around, but I didn't know how I was going to get out of it when I was half drunk and half naked in his room. I didn't know him that well except he had muscles and was rude to waitstaff.

        I had a choice. I could get up and leave but I feared that he would attack me, make me feel bad and maybe even stalk me after (he had shown those tendencies before). Or I could stay and endure whatever was going to happen and cut it off later when it was all over. I stayed because I thought it would be safer in the big picture.

        When I told her this story she had the most shocked look on her face

        "Don't you realize you were raped?"

        I was confused as hell. I'm pretty sure I wasn't raped. Was it a bad sex experience? Yes. Rape? No.

        "No, you totally were! You should have him arrested!!!"

        Back then when I was much younger and this conversation confused me so much. Before I told her about the story, I was perfectly OK with owning up to my poor judgement and I was never going to let it happen again, ever. I was gonna screen guys better and ease up on the "free" drinks.

        After her comments, I felt like a victim, powerless. I felt like I was added to this class of "raped women" and I had to behave a certain way, the feminist way.

        This is why its important to call bad sex experiences what they are. Its not rape. Its you being stupid. Get your act together and make better decisions next time. Since then, I've never put myself in that position ever again.

        [–]GrowingSlowly 5 points6 points  (0 children)

        I had almost this exact same situation when I was younger. Just like you, I was fine when I had it in my own head. I made a mistake, but I learned from it. Then I let other people into my head and that's when the confusion began.

        I would do my best to push it out of my mind, but every once in a while, it would pop back into my head and I would think on it and try to decide what exactly it was. Fortunately, after some years passed and I learned more and managed to get rid of some of the brainwashing, I (re)came to the conclusion that no, in fact, I was not raped or in any way sexually assaulted. I had a bad experience, but not as bad as that.

        It's exactly as you say- we need to call bad sexual experiences as they are. If you have that bad experience, you realize just what it was and you learn from it and you don't put yourself into that position again. Yes, of course it would have been better to not have gotten into the situation in the first place, but at least now I know I will not have another experience like that one.

        [–]LiaKathryn 3 points4 points  (1 child)

        Fearing being attacked is blurring the lines for sure though...

        [–]agh_missedit 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        Maybe its just me, but I'm in fearing attack mode quite a bit. I think it is in the nature of being woman. We're physically smaller, weaker, etc.

        Perhaps I'm a tinge more wary than the general public. If I walk down an empty street and there's a man coming towards me, I would be lying if I said I didn't have a little fear of being attacked.

        In that particular scenario, there was no real threat, only the possibility. He definitely was the aggressive type, but for me to say "oh crap, if I leave he is going to punch me in the face" is unfair because I hadn't experienced that behavior from him before.

        All in all, bad experience. 10/10 would not ride again.

        [–]FleetingWishEndorsed Contributor 15 points16 points  (13 children)

        The irony is this is the same group of people who want to devalue sex. These are the people who are saying that women should have more sexual partners and not feel guilty for doing so. These are the same people who think that the more partners you have the better you'll be at sex. They say sex is just fun, and you should experience as much as you want.

        But then there's rape, one of the most "evil" things you can do to someone. Mentally we categorize it almost as bad as murder in terms as the most horrible crimes to commit.

        Calling these encounters "rape" (where she was coerced, and regretted it later) is implicit admission of the fact that they still think sex is valuable. They don't want to give it to just anybody, they only want to give it to those who they think are worth it.

        So which is it? Is sex a game, just people having some fun or is it something valuable and sacred that should only be given to special people? The reality for them is that it's fun... Only if it's with the right people.

        [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

        +1 you articulated what i've been thinking for a long time but couldn't find the words for. Is sex meaningless and free or valuable? It can't be both.

        [–]IVIaskerade 4 points5 points  (1 child)

        That's more of a product of two schools of thought both attempting to lay claim to the same title.

        "Feminism" as a term can be divided roughly into "sex-positive" who are the ones devaluing it and "sex-negative" who are the ones who claim sex is valuable. You will very rarely get one person claiming both, but since both have an equal claim to the title "feminist" then the ideology ends up caught between two opposing stances, making it appear to be contradictory to those looking at it.

        This is not defending feminism - a group needs to deal with its internal problems before it can expect the rest of the world to take it seriously - merely highlighting that sex is meaningless to some and valuable to others, and in the words of Rudyard Kipling "never the twain shall meet".

        [–]SouthernPetite 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        I've actually been hearing a lot of feminists making both sex positive and negative statements lately. I don't know if they're spoiled brats that want to change the rules when convenient, or if they're con artists, but it's definitely bizarre.

        [–]cxj 1 point2 points  (6 children)

        To be fair i think those two claims are being made by two separate groups: sex positive (sex is fun have lots of partners) vs sex negative (tr00 consent is impossible its always rape) feminists.

        [–]IVIaskerade 1 point2 points  (5 children)

        But since both have equal claim to the title of "feminist" (despite neither recognising the other), then it would behove them to deal with - or at least admit - their differences before they confuse outsiders.

        [–]cxj 0 points1 point  (4 children)

        I think they do this by calling themselves sex positive or negative. I dont agree with either for the record lol

        [–]IVIaskerade 0 points1 point  (3 children)

        I dont agree with either for the record lol

        Me either, but it's an important point to recognise that the people making the contradictory claims are different entities. Uniting them under the banner of "Feminism" is fine (and I would encourage it) but to ignore that Feminism is in and of itself fractious and dealing with infighting is, in my opinion, intellectually dishonest.

        [–]cxj 2 points3 points  (2 children)

        Your last sentence was my point entirely

        [–]alcockell 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        They also need to call out their extremists loudly and in front of news cameras -as to the outside world (people like me), all we hear is "All men are latent rapists" or something - mainly cos a weird bipolar gestalt of it all gets blasted out via the activism/Government/lobbying interface - which is what the public sees.

        [–]cxj 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        "But but but were moderate feminists!"

        [–]snbdmliss[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

        I felt that the article was an interesting middle ground, a step in the right direction... Yes, it's ironic that it's the group that says sex can be casual, but it's a woman saying that you can't call poor behavior rape, instead it's just own that poor behavior and make better decisions next time.

        [–]FleetingWishEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (1 child)

        No, I agree with the article. I just find amusing the double think that the people this article is referring to engage in.

        [–]snbdmliss[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Agreed

        [–]LiaKathryn 11 points12 points  (0 children)

        I just realized how pervasive this thinking is on reddit alone. I read a story where a man got drunk (accidentily, drinking what he thought were non alcoholic beers) and then made out with a female friend and accepted a blow job, came come told his wife... She posts on reddit and the immediate response was he was raped. What? By feminist logic every sexual encounter I have had outside of long term relationships (and in fact even starting those) has been rape. While I dont think he should be held completely accountable for what happened it sure as fuck didnt sound criminal.

        Seriously. Every, single, initial sexual encounter I have had I was reluctatant at first, talked into it or really drunk and too nervous to say no. And I consider these all poor decisions on my part and in some cases consider the other person an asshole in retrospect... But it still wasn't rape.

        On the flip side... I have been legitimately raped. When you say no, scream stop, and it still happens while you cry and try to get the person off of you, thats an entirely different terrifying experience where you have no control over the outcome. Completely different from "ugh i dont realllly want to do this but he's my friend and i dont want to upset him or lose his friendship and i'm too drunk to really care so I guess I'll just let it happen and hate myself tommorow for it."

        One situation has a choice, albeit poorly made, the other had no choice. I really get sickened by people playing victim to their own poor choices.

        [–]lvioletsnow 1 point2 points  (2 children)

        Jesus. -sigh- This reminds of the video from /u/girlwriteswhat that I saw a few days ago. It basically posited that feminists are fundamentally lying about what they want because for women to be truly to men equal we have to be willing to give up our feminine privilege.

        It is a feminine privilege that people care, deeply, when a woman has been sexually assaulted. When we have been hurt and violated. (Male on male rape or DV is usually posited as "funny" or "emasculating".) To abuse that protection so the carousel can be rode without even the tiny bit of damage to the "feels" is a slap in the face to those original feminists who just wanted their SOs to stop hurting them.

        [–]alcockell 2 points3 points  (1 child)

        [–]SouthernPetite 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Not only that, but female on female rape is denied as well. Anything to maintain the halo of innocence, I guess.