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ADVICERegretting my "alpha" career, do I even have a chance at the love life I want? (self.RedPillWomen)

submitted by settlingsounds

Warning: Rant incoming

I'm a medical student on the road to becoming a doctor and I hate my life. I've been lurking on RPW for a while and think the ideologies really make sense but I don't know how to deal with this "career woman" path I got myself trapped into. I am absolutely miserable as a medical student but have way too much debt to not follow through. I looked deep into myself and realized that all I really, truly, deeply want is to build a family with a man who cares for me and takes care of me. But I've been indoctrinated with the idea that women HAVE to strive for success, especially given how lucky I was to have the opportunity for a great education.

Men who want a serious relationship and a family don't consider me because my career is a huge hindrance to that. And I totally understand that. No matter how feminine I act, or take care of my body/looks, I still am restrained by my career in terms of time and energy I have to devote to a man. By the time I'm done residency training, I'll be old (+ stress aging!) and reaching my last years of fertility. Not to mention many men just straight out assume I'm the bitchy, cold, "career woman" type the second they learn that I'm a medical student (thanks for this reputation, other med student gals 🙄)

People recommend that I just find a "house husband" to take on the feminine role, but I can't feel any attraction towards a man who is not more masculine, high-achieving, intelligent, and ambitious than me. Meanwhile alpha men don't want to deal with competing with me or dealing with the fact that so much of my energy must go towards my masculine ambitions.

I am so distraught that I will never find the relationship I've always wanted because I chose this stupid career. While I still agree with the feminist idea that women and men should be ABLE to achieve the same things in the work sphere, I am so mad that modern feminism made me believe that it was the BEST way to go. Because no amount of career accomplishment is going to squash the little girl in me who just wants to be loved and protected and cared for.


[–]AnnaAerials 65 points66 points  (4 children)

I don’t want to be naive to your situation, but I’ve seen many families that both parents are doctors. RPW doesn’t exclude women who want serious fulfilling careers, it just means that won’t be your whole life. Is it possible to find an older, mature doctor? Surely there are men in your course? You would be intimidating to someone who has no drive or career aspirations, but you’d be perfect for someone in the same or a similar serious profession.

Not all red pill stories are the same. In Aus we have a site called “elite singles” that is about well educated people getting together- used a lot because they don’t have much time to go out and meet people.

The biggest issue here is that you aren’t happy and you seem to be stressed- have you considered gym, antidepressants or supplements (iron, melitonan) Is it your demanding course or your situation with relationships that is giving you the most grief?

I believe completely that you can have a fulfilling relationship. It’s not too late and it won’t be all doom and gloom, you’re in the right place :)

[–]settlingsounds[S] 15 points16 points  (3 children)

Thank you, this is comforting. I hear a lot about doctor/doctor marriages getting divorced which is why it scares me, but perhaps it's because both partners try to take the masculine role. I will try to put more energy into improving my emotional state. I have some bitterness about feeling pressured to be a "career woman" when that's not really my true vibe, but I've already made that decision and can only move forward from here.

[–]okayhunny 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I totally get your op about not wanting to be stressed out and feeling some resentment over women pushed to this. I’m not a “career woman” type either but I feel pressure to at least pursue a grad degree so I can make a higher salary when/if I work full time (I don’t work full time right now ). If I am going to have a typical office job 9-5, I don’t want to be making 12/hr. I just know that would make me miserable! So my grad degree will at least enable me to have more money and live comfortably in the meantime.. then hopefully I will meet someone and get married and all that.

Also if you end up married and start having kids, in most households women still end up doing most of the housework, even if they work outside the home. The good news there is if you end up working full time as a doctor, you can easily afford a maid and nanny. So there’s a silver lining if you go down that path, at least? You won’t be struggling with money the same way many other working mothers do. Plenty of women have kids while working 9-5 and making barely above minimum wage, which seems super frustrating.. At least that won’t be you.

[–]vintagegirlgame 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Yes my mom and Dad are both doctors. My mom had me in residency and thought she could just take maternity leave and then bounce right back. Except she realized she didn’t want me raised by a nanny so she quit her residency and became a full time mom and had 4 kids over the next 10 years. She dabbled a bit in the ER while raising kids and on/off homeschooling, but did not have a traditional medical career. My dad is a surgeon and was the provider. That worked for them until mom caught empty nest syndrome (even before any of us had left) and realized she had put everything into her kids and neglected her marriage. They got divorced and now she has a new husband and a new medical career in a new specialty.

If my mom was more self aware as a RPW she could have saved her marriage. She never once regretted her education tho. You may not make max use of your degree but yes, if you can marry an elite provider then you can still be the Dr.Housewife and that’s awesome.

I almost went down the medical path (4 years of undergrad plus taking the MCATS) because it was what I knew. I am grateful that when I met my man I did a complete 180 and now I am so much happier as an artist.

[–]musicalfeet 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I stumbled upon this thread while frolicking around reddit but, as a fellow female med student who's in a wonderful relationship with a physician (and I'd like to say, we started dating in my first year), I'd just like to say that actually doctor + doctor marriages have lower divorce rates than doctor + non-doctor marriages. Mostly because there's more likely to be a mutual understanding with one another. Not to toot my own horn, but I didn't have any dating issues in the beginning of med school before I committed to my relationship.

If you are as conventionally pretty as they say and don't give off a mean/high strung/neurotic/hypercompetitive vibe (which... I find a huge chunk of my female classmates give off and aren't even aware of it) then you shouldn't have problems attracting others in the healthcare field.

There has to be a motivation to have wanted to pursue medicine right? Like an innate desire to take care of others? Channel that aspect to your relationships.

Another big thing is you have to separate "work/professional" you and "personal life" you. I am much more assertive/demanding and hypercompetitive when I'm at work/school, but once that time is done, I switch to be more relaxed and laid-back. That is critical to maintaining not just romantic relationships, but all relationships.

[–]NationalMouse 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Keep taking care of yourself and your body, keep doing feminine things, and I know a good man will come will come Your way regardless of your career. Just make sure you make time for him and make him feel like he is just as important as your career. I happen to work with many men who describe their wives as successful doctors and lawyers. One man I work with even admitted his wife is more successful than he (they’re both lawyers). A GOOD man wouldn’t feel threatened by a humble yet successful doctor.

[–]fosho_away 69 points70 points  (2 children)

30 year old beautiful doctors are an amazing catch for high value men (think surgeons, like my uncle, who married an obstetrician). You can always go the GP or dermatology route so you enjoy work? Don’t think your job will preclude your entire family life, that seems like really extreme thinking. Chill and remember life after residency will be a lot different.

[–]party_dragon 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Don't GPs have much lower life expectancy (I imagine it must be because they meet so many sick people).

In any case, ophthalmology is another nice, fairly low stress branch.

[–]telltalesass 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Yeah all the doctors in my family married to high driven career women, mainly other doctors. This is pretty typical at least as far as my circle goes.

[–]Kaboomboomboomboom 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I know a wonderful high-value lawyer whose girlfriend is a doctor. Last I heard, he was very serious about the relationship. I think it’s important that you feel good doing whatever you’re doing. Being happy is probably the most attractive thing there is.

[–]i_have_a_semicolon 7 points8 points  (1 child)

I suggest seeing a psych / therapist and continuing your career trajectory. DO NOT entertain "ticket" thoughts. Do not blame your decisions regarding your life and future on other people. Take responsibility for yourself and for your actions. Just know that you are not stopping yourself from being a wife or mother one day with these actions. There are plenty of female doctors in good relationships. Find good role models.

[–]settlingsounds[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I just got back into therapy after reflecting on this sub's advice! I've been putting it off due to cost/time but I guess it can be considered an investment in my future.

[–]Drezzzire 11 points12 points  (3 children)

Nothing wrong with being successful and having a career.

With that said, don’t devote your entire life to it if being in a devoted relationship is something you desire.

Men rarely care about success

Your success is solely to satisfy your need for accomplishment-and it’s good that you went that route

Don’t think that dudes want some welfare receiving, lazy gold digger

Pursue your career, get a comfortable job that has normal hours and isn’t overly demanding

You should be fine as long as you don’t try and make your accomplishments seem like the forefront of your personality-because, again, guys don’t care much about them beyond the fact that you’re not a loser

If you’re pretty, you’ll be fine-no worries

If you’re not, ugh you’ll need to be extremely successful and find a gold digging guy....

It’s the same fate that ugly guys have to face

Ps: the fact that you don’t submit to the ridiculous feminist ideologies that plague today’s society puts you way ahead of most women to begin with

[–]settlingsounds[S] 7 points8 points  (2 children)

Luckily I am conventionally pretty and slim. Still horrible luck with dating. I swear I do my best to not send out an intimidating vibe but a lot of guys do act insecure (an engineer I was dating went out of his way to look up my future salary and "joked" that I should be picking up the tabs) and it really turns me off. I have dated men more successful than me, but I think they pull away when they realize how easily they can find a reasonably smart woman who doesn't come with all the career baggage. I'm disappointed to realize how much men don't care about success, but it's so true. My own accomplishments bring me no joy, honestly, so I wish I could put that energy into upping my SMV. Perhaps I need to dig deeper. While I do act feminine, I can get needy/naggy in relationships and reading the Surrendered Wife has helped me realize a lot of control issues to work on.

[–]Drezzzire 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Perhaps leave your career out of the conversation in the beginning.

But honestly, only an insecure man would make it a big deal.

It sounds like they’re the problem more than you

But never stop trying to improve yourself. There’s always things one can do to be more appealing to potential suitors.

Also, maybe you don’t have to pursue the most successful guys. Try just pursuing guys that you have things in common with.

As much as guys don’t care about a woman’s success; they also hate women only caring about theirs.

Try going outside of your ‘expectations’ and just dating a normal guy who you fancy.

Could be the root of the problem

Btw, I’m not referring to ‘losers.’ Just guys that don’t make 6 figures. Don’t pigeonhole yourself into a particular class group; especially when you can take care of yourself.

[–]darc2k 5 points6 points  (0 children)

As a fellow engineer and computer scientist I have never asked for a woman to pick up a tab. I love a women who presents herself as confident. Confident, not bossy. Are you a member of CrossFit or a good gym? Take some yoga or cycling classes... I meet lots of ladies in dance class during grad school.

[–]MakeAmericaRichAgain 23 points24 points  (3 children)

It's a difficult situation to navigate, but you can still have an incredible life and marriage. Let's take a step back from the gloom and doom for a second, and let's look at what you'll bring to the table in just a few years:

Cons:

  • Probably a lot of debt, which means you'll likely have to work a few years (3-5) until it's gone.
  • Older than 25.
  • Having kids will probably take some flexibility. You'll be able to use paid maternity leave for awhile, but after that you'll need to figure out if you're going nanny / daycare / relative or whatever else.

That's pretty much it. Now let's look at the pros:

  • MONSTER income. If you don't fall for the pediatric meme, you'll be worth hundreds of thousands per year. You should be able to hack away your debt in just a handful of years. After that, it's cold, hard cash in your hands every two weeks for the rest of your working life. Money fixes A LOT of problems, and the more you have, the more of your day-to-day work you can hand off to someone else. Think about how attractive you can be at 32 when you have the cash to hire a personal trainer / nutritionist / surgeon. You'll be light years ahead of all but the hottest 25 year-olds when you're 35.
  • Flexibility of schedule. As a doctor, you can tell people when you'll be practicing. Want Thursdays off? No problem. Work 4 days a week? You got it. Demand for physicians is absolutely insane right now. They'll do whatever you ask with a smile on their faces and still fork over a truck full of cash every two weeks. This will allow you to contribute meaningfully to your household, while still having a great, high-paying job.
  • The general life skill of being a physician. Highly undermentioned, but men LOVE it when a woman can take medical care of them, provided it's done in a gentle and loving manner. You'll also be able to offer that to your kids, to your friends and family, and you carry a prescription pad for when someone just needs an antibiotic or something else that's easy. All of that is insanely valuable from a convenience standpoint.

If I were you, I would be targeting guys in their mid-to-late 20's with decent jobs, but ambitions to be an entrepreneur. The odds are against you if you aim for guys with your educational level (doctors are one of the most guilty occupations at "dating down"). However, I know a handful of entrepreneur guys, and all of them are smarter (and more extroverted / fun) than the best doctors that I know. You could get into a relationship where they take care of things for a few years while you're in med school, then you graduate, soar past them in income, and take over earning the money while they ambitiously pursue their dreams of starting that store / designing that software that will change the world. It'll be easier for guys like that to help with kids as needed, and in general they tend to be very responsible with their time outside of work, which you can give them more of. It would be a mutually beneficial arrangement, and those tend to be the best relationships / marriages.

You might not recognize it at the moment, but a female doctor would make one hell of a first mate. Plenty of women are out there right now with the same amount of debt as you (or more) and no hope to possibly pay it back. You'll likely pay yours back in short order, and then make enough money to basically buy a condo every year for the rest of your life. That sounds like a pretty sweet setup to me.

[–]settlingsounds[S] 12 points13 points  (1 child)

Thank you so much for this. I can't say things will be exactly this optimistic (debt probably 15 years, flexibility depends on specialty), but your comment gives me a lot of perspective I've been ignoring. I'm surrounded by miserable medical students all the time, but in truth we are so lucky for our position. I still wouldn't make the same choice because I don't feel passion for it anymore, but this gives me hope that I can still achieve my other dreams with some flexibility.

And omg, I would absolutely love to date an entrepreneur. Those qualities are soooo attractive. I'm pretty turned off by doctors because they are too in my arena and many do prefer to "date down" because they want someone with more time to be super supportive.

This post really helped my confidence, thank you!

[–]ConservativelyRight 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I wouldn't make generalizations about entrepeneurs, though. Many of them are working longer hours than doctors and don't make a quarter what they do. It can also be highly stressful, similar to medical school. They're not all putting their feet up every day and cashing in monthly income on some unicorn app they made in 2012 (though if you could find one like that, good on you). I do agree that those guys can be very responsible and fun, but don't make assumptions about people based on career. It's also highly likely you may find a fellow med student/resident that is more supportive than most guys with an average 9-5 would be. Imo career profiling can be a bit silly. How you both handle yourselves and the (hopefully reasonable) expectations you place on each other is way more important.

[–]PixieThePerv 2 points3 points  (0 children)

dating an entrepenur with the expectations you mentioned seems a bit risky to me

[–]Kara__El1 Star 6 points7 points  (16 children)

How old are you? How old will you be when you're done with school? Is it an option to finish as quickly as possible and then work regular hours as a general practitioner or something similar? Can you switch to something less demanding, like being a physician's assistant or nurse practitioner? It's really not all or none.

[–]settlingsounds[S] 4 points5 points  (15 children)

I am 23 and 2 years in. I had to take a leave of absence due to depression so that pushes back my "finish" date to 30-31 depending on what residency I choose. I want so badly to drop out or switch but I have way too much debt and need the doctor salary to pay it off. Actually I am newly dating a very well off man and it's tempting to look towards him as a "ticket" out but I played my cards wrong and pretty much made myself into a plate and need to walk away. I've already demonstrated myself as low value and I don't think I can reverse that, plus he's 15 years older and wants to settle down, not deal with my career BS. Sigh I really wish I found this sub sooner.

[–]Kara__El1 Star 18 points19 points  (3 children)

Okay...

  1. Men are not here to save you from your financial strife. Don't be that woman. Don't consider being that women. Any decent man will pick up on it.
  2. You're 23. Now is the time to correct your path. If you're in the U.S., you have the option to consolidate all federal loans after college and pay based on income. After 20 years, you can have the rest forgiven. You could also consider Public Service Loan Forgiveness and work in a non-profit or at-risk area for 10 years, and then petition for loan forgiveness. There are options. Look into them, because...
  3. If you're feeling this way now, it's not likely you'll actually MAKE IT through the schooling to be a doctor. Don't waste more years and money on something you know you don't want.

Sincerely, Librarian With Six Figure Loan Debt Due for Forgiveness in 2024

[–]settlingsounds[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Ah congrats on getting the forgiveness. I have a private loan from my parents. They're not loaded, they just have invested everything in me are relying on me for their retirement, so I really can't drop the ball here unfortunately. Otherwise I'd be out the door, considering my mental health issues

[–]BePrivateGirl 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I’m a nurse, most MD’s I interact with say that RN’s make more money “hourly” than they do. Because we only work 36 hours a week. It is truly a great salary and it affords me Time, and peace, and it’s very feminine.

23 is not too late to get out, and your previous coursework will be relevant. Think about it.

[–]PixieThePerv 0 points1 point  (0 children)

from the sounds of it, this seems like the best option.

[–]dashdotdott 5 points6 points  (4 children)

I'll add that there is a chance you can start to have kids during residency. I know two psychiatric residents who have had a kid (each). I don't know how common it is in other residency programs.

Also you sound like you're trapped and panicking. You seem to think that your options are: lonely life in medicine vs happy Stepford wife. Based on other commenters, that isn't necessarily the case, you have other options.

You need to figure out what you want. Do you want to stay home with your kids? Do you want to work part time? Do you want to deal with patients? There are jobs out there for M.D.s that aren't patient-facing (such as regulatory affairs), look into those options. Is the only reason you dislike medicine is because you don't think you can get a man?

If you decide medicine isn't for you, well, you're not the first to drop out. What did those people do? They probably not working as cashiers. You have skills, you have medicine based knowledge. Those aren't nothing.

You are high on emotion. Take some time to think things through and figure out what you want for you.

[–]dashdotdott 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I should add: a decent man won't next you because you have debt. You need to be honest and have a plan to get out of debt (and evidence that you've been holding to the plan). Dave Ramsey was an excellent help for my family when we were in debt

[–]settlingsounds[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Ah that's so nice to hear! I was actually leaning towards psychiatry since it seems to offer a lot of flexibility during residency. Reading these other comments is really helping me see that it doesn't have to be black/white. It seems that way when I see a lot of my miserable female classmates/colleagues but they do tend to be brash and very picky with men.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes. Psychiatry is good too!

[–]ConservativelyRight 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yep. Psych and FM are pretty decent as "lifestlye" residencies, if there's even such a thing. Not sure if Psych has to do IM rotations, though. If so, those are tough (80+hrs/wk). FM has to do some, but I believe most time is spent in clinic which are like 40-50hr weeks. Psych seems to be 40-60, generally, but they say it can get quite mentally taxing depending on your patient population on any given day/week. Still...not bad for residency.

More info here https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/psych-residency-hours.1276584/

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (4 children)

You’re only 23, you can still get out. Continuing with medical school will put you in more debt. You can be a CRNA and still make 6 figures. If you’re smart enough to go to medical school, you can be a CRNA. They make just as much as family practice doctor. You can eventually work part time at make $70K. Yes, I know because I Credentialing them.

If you feel like you’re already in it and feel you can’t turn back due to debt, there are a few specialties that won’t kill you. Emergency Medicine, Radiology and Pathology are almost all shift work. If you go into Neurology you can also do Telemedicine and work from home.

I also knew a couple Ob/Gyn hospitalist that work part-time. But I understand where you come from. Good luck!

[–]rorschach555 4 points5 points  (3 children)

A CRNA is a BSN who has worked usually 1-2 years in an ICU setting and then applies to this program. The OP is not a nurse. If she wants to become a CRNA she will have to go apply to nursing school, complete an accelerated nursing program, work in an ICU for 1-2 years, then apply to CRNA school which takes about 3 years depending on the program.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Sure, that is a change of route, but many large hospitals will have programs that help pay tuition. If she continues the route of becoming a doctor, at the age 23... she easily has another 7-8 years before becoming a doctor.

[–]rorschach555 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I mean 1-2 year accelerated BSN + 2 years ICU experience + 3 years CRNA program is about 6-7 years which isn't much different from 7-8 years.

[–]ConservativelyRight 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agreed. I'm basically in OP's same exact position, and I ran this calculation too with several different careers. Bottom line is it's gonna take like 5-6 years to dig myself out of the debt hole anyway, and I'm probably gonna have to bust my ass to do that anyway, so I might as well do it in a context where I end up with a massive salary, respect, and the ability to really make a difference in (realistically 5-10% of) patients' lives.

[–]ConservativelyRight 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Same exact boat, including the LOA. More and more of us are taking em now, huh? And that depression...I hope you're doing what's right for you to climb out. I only just recently (past month or so) saw the light (started break in mid July), and damn it's really a relief to start feeling normal again. Best of luck to you. The other thing I'd say is you've got to make sure your mind is right before making an honest crack at another man. Times of personal crisis like this can be a seeding ground for destructive, codependent relationships. Just take your time and make sure you're solid, mentally and physically, before diving in again.

[–][deleted]  (6 children)

[removed]

[–]vintagegirlgame 6 points7 points  (4 children)

It’s not about “sacrificing everything you’ve ever wanted to do.” It’s about knowing your priorities You can have a career, a husband, children, friends, hobbies. But time is limited and they all can’t be your #1. Put these things in order of how much happiness they bring you. All of them are important, but once you know where your priories are in relation to each other, making decisions becomes easy.

For me personally, when push comes to shove, I know I’ll sacrifice some of my career so that I can be there to support my man because my relationship brings me more happiness than my career.

[–]Dominemm 2 points3 points  (3 children)

Hmm.

I'm in law school currently. I've wanted to do it since I was very small. I've just worked so hard for it, and it's my thing. I know everything can't be number one. But it feels like everything is a "vital organ."

I don't wanna be an alone career woman. But I also don't think I could be a stay at home mom, with my life revolving around my family.

Idk, I think I should make a separate post.

[–]littlepearlisland 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Fellow law student here (3L). Look into legal fields that are slightly more flexible/ less court room time. Governmental agencies, in house positions, and remote contract work could be two great options. I met my boyfriend early in 2L and we have both fallen head over heels. We both went into it knowing marriage and kids were the end goal. I disclosed I was not full time stay at home mom material, and that I'd like to work full time I until we have kids and then switch to part-time or remote. We had that conversation upfront and it works for us. Both sets of parents are planning on moving to wherever we end up and will help with child care. Obviously this is the plan, and life is subject to change. It is possible to find an alpha who understands and wants you to be successful. I know several families where they exhibit rp values and both have professional careers. Don't give up hope, just plan accordingly!

[–]vintagegirlgame 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Wow 4 parents that will move for you...lucky you! That is an invaluable resource. I think a lot of today’s problems come from families being so isolated and nuclear... raising a family tribal style with all the relatives helping out is rare today but I think it is more natural.

Hiring nanny’s is just not the same. My mom thought she could take maternity leave from her medical residency and then just go back to work, but when I started smiling bigger for the nanny than for her she wasn’t having it and left her residency.

[–]littlepearlisland 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We are incredibly lucky. (Though really it'll be more like 2 in town full time, 2 part time.) Seeing how some of my friends who grew up in a more extended family situation, I would much rather have everyone around. Those kids seem to adjust to changes better.

[–]ThatKidinAfrica 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Success increases the expectations and attractiveness of Men but with Women it only affects their expectations. The more successful you become, The higher SMV Men (Someone richer and more successful) are you willing to settle for but your successfulness does not contribute to your attractiveness. Men are still going to judge you mostly on your physical characteristics and that means you are going to be competing with prettier and prettier models, the higher you aim.

[–]Hammocknapping 2 points3 points  (2 children)

How are you performing in your program? What is your program ranked? What are you performance benchmarks if you want to have your pick of specialties?

Here are a couple of things to consider:

  1. If you “hate” medicinal school, and your performance is suffering, then you need to figure out how to transfer your credits ASAP. What was your undergrad in? Have you looked into transferring into a PA or DO program? What about podiatry it chiropractic? Are a clinic MPH, MHA, or epidemiology (degree type varies) an option? Maybe see if your credits could transfer down into an accelerated nursing program. If you’re performing well enough to have your pick of specialities, I would aim for dermatology, plastic surgery or psychiatry. These specialities are in demand (particularly in urban areas) and have flexibility once you’re established. In some states, psychiatrists can practice telemedicine which is a nice bonus.

  2. You, and you alone, made the decision to acquire student debt. While student debt is hard avoid in medical school, it can absolutely be avoided while getting your undergrad degree. And, honestly for most high value men I know, that large amount of debt will count against you more than your career. That’s why if you’re underperforming, you MUST find an immediate solution to mitigate your debt.

  3. Work on your attitude. Men have no problem dating med student or marrying a doctor, but they aren’t going to want to date someone who is overly dramatic and depressive. You cannot just wish away your mental health struggles, but you of all people should know that the thoughts you’ve expressed in this post look like warning signs of depressions. If you’re not still in therapy, this would be a good time to start again.

  4. Having two high incomes is awesome. You can farm out all of the little stuff like cleaning, gardening and lawn care, grocery shopping, car maintenance, taking a dog to daycare all day (or if you have children, paying for a fulltime nanny who aligns with your values) and still have room in the budget for fun, bonus items like vacations, nice meals out, home projects, etc.

If you get the correct support system up and running, then 90% of the time you spend with a future SO will be fun time.

This notion that you “can’t have it all” is both true and not true. If you excel at your job and are in high demand, almost anything is possible. The more in demand you are, the more employers will pay you (or my personal bargaining chip - the more flexibility they will give you).

If you just want to be a SAHM or SAHW, then yes you screwed up. But I’d you want a career with flexibility when you’re in your 30s and 40s, then you still have plenty of options.

[–]settlingsounds[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I'm in a mid tier allopathic program ranked in the middle of my class. While derm/plastics is not an option I think I have a good shopt at psychiatry. Switching programs doesn't seem feasible because med students learn a different set of skills from all the other specialties (for example, we don't even learn how to give shots or draw blood!) so I would need to start from scratch. I don't even like medicine anyways. I wanted to help people but it's become increasingly clear to me that patient welfare is not important in our country's health system.

I think my best bet is to just buckle down and go through the rest of this path. I absolutely hate it but I am competent and the main issue is my depression. I used to rank in the top 10% of my class before that took hold. I have just gotten myself back into therapy based on this sub's insights!

It seems like my best bet is to work on myself then find a high income man. The lower income men I've dated act like they aren't intimidated by my career, but they make little passive aggressive comments here and there that really turn me off. I personally don't really want to live a luxe life or anything so perhaps I can focus on paying on debt/saving for retirement and retiring early. And I think I have just come to terms with the fact that I can't stay at home with my kids as much as I want to.

Thank you for your insights.

[–]Hammocknapping 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Only you will know if continuing down this path, which require you to take on more debt and continue to be miserable, will make you so miserable that no man will want you.

A man wants a woman that’s a help, not a hindrance. And having a wife who is always miserable, depressive, worrying about money, and naggy is a huge hinderamce. Miserable human beings make miserable spouses and miserable parents.

I would look into Dave Ramsey and start getting on a budget now, so as soon as you start making any money you’re able to aggressively get out from under that mountain of debt.

I also think important to note that not all women who have traditionally masculine careers experience these same issues. It’s all about knowing yourself and what drives you and what limits you.

Edit: I’m well aware that med school credits are rarely transferable. But, all of the options I listed would have you put and working in much less time than remaining 2.5 years + residency + fellowship.

[–]nowyougotdryballs 7 points8 points  (0 children)

No malice intended- Iv'e gotta say, you're a casualty of the modern staunch feminist movement. Healthy relationships are a key to a strong family dynamic and those only come about with each person fulfilling natural roles within the family unit. I'm all for women being the best they can be career-wise, but it will usually come at a cost. You might be able to turn your life course around,(you're still young) but it will be tough. Just think very carefully about your next set of moves as you don't want to deepen the hole. I hope you figure something out soon as you have at least figured out what matters most in life.

[–]GhostENTJ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Keep moving forward in your career. Dont quit, finish.

You should take a page out of the average women lawyer.

They usually quit before making partner. Use your career to attract an Alpha. Work long enough to pay your debt off. Find a doctor and all your problems will go away

[–]ConservativelyRight 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Fellow med student (MS3) here, maybe I can offer some advice.

As a man, I actually feel very similarly -- not the being taken care of part, but certainly with respect to the desire for a proper love life where I can give a good woman the time and attention she deserves without constantly being pulled away by the mistress of medicine. The problem is, men, unlike women, are generally shamed for taking "the path of least resistance" and going and doing something else, even though there really is objectively nothing wrong with that.

As far as men not considering you, this is understandable, but again it goes both ways. You think any woman, especially at the beginning of a new relationship, is going to want a guy that's barely around? How is romance supposed to flourish under those conditions? How am I supposed to properly prove to her that I am a worthwhile, valuable individual that she should spend her life with? In this way, I think it's even harder on men. But this is why you don't generally see people dating in med school. They're either married, in a serious LTR, or just having casual sex with no strings. The reason is that it's nearly impossible to put in the required amount of effort to really get a relationship going.

The stress/aging thing you bring up is also a concern of mine as well, though I think it's just paranoia as I've found most men in med school/residency/attending positions to be quite attractive. Whereas many of the females in medicine (FM and EM docs) have certainly sacrificed a great deal of SMV to do the job. Now, here I have to say...it's not as if there weren't any warnings. How many attractive woman doctors do you see out there with perfect skin and hair? Conversely, how many woman docs do you see developing serious signs of stress and aging on their face and bodies? No amount of money or surgery is going to fix those completely.

All this said, maintaining attractiveness and being a successful med student and doc is certainly not impossible. So I wouldn't let that get you down. I have quite a large class, and there are about 5 women in my class that are what I would call attractive, and they certainly haven't shown any signs over the two years I'd been their classmate of any significant decline. But who knows what they'll look like in the next ten years.

The "bitchy, cold career type" comment....hahaha I loved that. Thank you for being aware that this is one of the most major turn offs for most men. Even if a man wants an "ambitious" woman, he doesn't want her to also act like a man. The problem is, ambition and a masculine attitude tend to go hand in hand. Go figure. That said, again I'll defer to my female classmates...I think some of them would certainly fit that description, but there were plenty others who were chill af, and generally really nice girls. I think if you put off this attitude while dating, it shouldn't be a problem. But if you are getting that feedback from men that you are acting "cold, bitchy" maybe just take a moment to reflect on how you are acting toward them, and in your life in general. I think men do this too....just as there is RBF, there is also RAF, and people don't often realize the sort of vibe they give off. Most of the time, too, this is just a result of their situation. Just look around you during finals week and you'll notice what I mean -- everyone seems pissed off, angry, overworked, tired, etc. Now if you can come out of this, great, but some people don't, especially as they get further jaded by our wonderfully compassionate career (well, for patients, anyway).

I honestly see this a lot too -- medical women going for "feminine" men. It's quite a strange thing. Look, if you're the dominant, masculine, strapon type, more power to you. But I think most women are like you, and are honestly just "settling" for these guys so they don't have to "compete" like you said. Listen, I've been in a similar situation with my LTR. She was in engineering, and as a result there was sort of a sense of "competition" between us, though I honestly think it was coming more from her side. She would constantly tell me I don't "value her career" because "it makes less money" when I never told her that her career is less valuable or anything of the sort. On my side, it was more that I felt a need to "keep up" with the fact that she was such a successful, beautiful young woman and as a result I needed to "live up to that" by being a doctor, when I really never felt this sort of pressure before (beyond my own ambitions). So yeah, if you're both high achievers, it can be hard, and more pressure can accrue. But I think you just need to get a sense for this as you're dating someone. If it gets really bad, you can sit them down and really talk about it, and if it still doesn't resolve, maybe it's time to break it off. I think things with my SO sort of leveled off after a while, and I knew she wasn't the type to care what I did, yet we still sat down, talked about it, and having her tell me that point blank was really helpful.

I am so distraught that I will never find the relationship I've always wanted because I chose this stupid career. While I still agree with the feminist idea that women and men should be ABLE to achieve the same things in the work sphere, I am so mad that modern feminism made me believe that it was the BEST way to go. Because no amount of career accomplishment is going to squash the little girl in me who just wants to be loved and protected and cared for.

Very well said. Look, I think you can find what you're looking for, but you've really got to open yourself up to it. Trust me, I'm "in it" too -- I get it. You're just overworked as hell and you tend to socially shut down, so how the hell are you gonna meet someone? Heck, how are you even gonna have any social interaction beyond school and work? It's hard to feel good, it's hard to feel anything really, while you're just getting hammered day after day after day. The best advice I can give you is....pretend like none of it matters. Pretend like if they kicked you out of med school tomorrow, fuck it. Fuck them. Fuck the whole thing. They can't kill you. They can only make you owe some money, and that's really not the end of the world (more on that in a sec). So you just gonna do what's right for you, and nothing's gonna stop that. That said, do your job well. But I think when you approach it with this "calculated nonchalance" it does wonders for your stress levels, and ironically makes you a lot more efficient and a lot more compassionate and open toward others. When people see that in you, you will start to attract them, both men and women.

NOW then, to the practical point of the debt. No one tells anyone this, but I think this should be the first thing addressed in the financial orientation. If you're 100k, 200k, or 300k in debt (or more, as I will be), it's not over for you. I think they don't tell anyone this because they want you to feel like you have this massive anvil swinging over your head at all times to get you to do your job, but imo it's bullshit and inhumane to keep this information from the students.

There is a government program called IBR. I'm sure you might have heard of it, but I'm not sure if you know exactly what it entails. It's actually quite the deal for anyone who wants to get out, or even anyone going into residency that doesn't want to make massive payments in the short term. I'll summarize it simply:

  1. You pay back 10% of your monthly pay (in whatever job you take after leaving) that is over 150% of the poverty line (18k for one person, currently). So if you make, say, 25k a year after leaving, you're only paying $700 a year on your loans, or like $60/mo.
  2. This goes on for a 20 year term, during which you will pay as much as you can using that 10% rule. You can also always pay more.
  3. If you don't make shit, you don't pay shit. I.e. if you make $0 per year, you pay $0 per year on your loans.
  4. KEY POINT -- INTEREST DOES NOT CAPITALIZE!!! So the percentage interest of your loan when you come out will be the highest amount it will ever increase on a yearly basis. Example: You come out with 100k at 5%. Your yearly interest will never increase over 5k, whereas had you let it go somehow not making any payments for 20 years on a standard plan you would be paying, by that time, a yearly interest of 13k.
  5. At the end of the 20 year term, the loan is forgiven.
  6. So yeah, there's a catch. You pay income taxes on the forgiven amount. So let's say your 100k balloons to 250k in 20 years? You'd pay the normal income tax of like $80k. And yes, that means you're actually in a better position with your loans paying nothing for 20 years, and consequently have less of a bill at the end of it. Additionally, inflation will make this amount out to be more like 40-50k in today's dollars. I know, it's a damn good deal.

(continue to next reply)

[–]ConservativelyRight 2 points3 points  (0 children)

So now that I've basically given you a blueprint of how to dig yourself out of what might (let's not get too hasty yet) have been a bad decision, you've got a choice to make. Continue on, potentially lowering SMV, likely having to be in nun mode for (I'm guessing) another 5-6 years or so, but ending up with an ability to support yourself in a way that not only few women but few people will ever reach? I'd also say it's not unlikely you'd be able to nail down a HSMV man who is cool with your ambitiousness and combines your net income to over half a mill a year, so that's something to look forward to as you'll have WAY more time once out of residency to date around, AND you'll be in networks and circles that are loaded with HSMV individuals.

Or do you get out now, and go work even a menial job ending up paying less on your loans than you otherwise would have by the end of a 20 year period? Sales, real estate, CDL, or corporate work are all available to you immediately, I'm sure. Or you could go to grad school, potentially snag a man while there (work loads aren't usually too bad, especially in MS degrees, so you'd have time), and then move on to a relatively well-paid career in....well, whatever you want, really. Engineering, MBA, whatever are all available if you just go and take the required courses for a year or so. But you're going to have to restart, from a relatively socially respectable position of "medical student" back down to "student" or "I have an office job." Personally, I wouldn't give a shit, but I only bring it up because females are particularly concerned with status, and I have a feeling that a female in your position may be even more concerned with status than the average bear (given you've busted your ass and done all of the menial labor to get here so far).

So hopefully that covers everything. I hope this was helpful. Feel free to reply or PM if you have any additional questions or concerns, and really....good luck. Again, I'm a man but I really feel for you, as I'm getting a lot of the same feelings myself. It's kind of ironic, though, as we're in inverted positions. Leaving would decrease my SMV, whereas it would probably increase yours (d/t less stress/anxiety, more time to date, more time to take care of your looks etc.). And if you finish, it'll likely decrease your attractiveness or SMV (though I'm not sure if your higher earning potential would offset this....), and it would massively increase mine. Pretty strange, if you think about it. Anyway, I'd just say you've really gotta think hard on this one. It's truly a life changing decision. You need to be absolutely sure about what you're doing. Because although I've given you a plan to deal with the debt, it's still, I'm assuming, a large amount of debt, and therefore shouldn't be taken lightly, and neither should your current ability to have a career that could be highly rewarding in both a monetary and moral sense. Choose wisely.

[–]leftajar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sorry I'm late to the party here. The challenge with your situation, is that daycare is extremely damaging to young children, children less than 5 years old.

If you go ahead with the doctor thing, then you will likely lose the ability to catch a high-value guy who is dedicated to his career. Because, you're not going to want to stop being a doctor to stay home with the kids, most likely. So then you'll have to put them in daycare, which will massively damage the parent-child bond, and make them a big pain in the ass later when they're teenagers.

High-value guys who make plenty of money may not want you, because they don't need the income that you'll provide. They may see your dedication to your career as a drawback, a sunk cost that will prevent you from wanting to be a stay-at-home mom to their kids. Personally, I am substantially less inclined to pursue a woman whose put that much effort into her career for that reason. I make plenty of money, and I'm really looking for a woman to raise our kids. I don't want to have to sell my future wife on the merits of leaving behind the career she invested so much to pursue.

That doesn't mean you can't find an amazing guy, it just is something to be aware of. Furthermore, at age 23, you're not that deep into the process. If you're having second thoughts about this, it's not too late to bounce and figure something out.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (9 children)

1) men care 100% more about looks than a career. Seriously. Get a job that won’t keep you on call though.

2) you could find a great house husband. If he takes care of himself and is pursuing hobbies with a competency your respect and he nips any career power play in the bud then you’ll be fine. Look for an Entrepeneur type. They make their own hours and may appreciate having someone else making the nut so they can take bigger business risks.

[–]okayhunny 8 points9 points  (8 children)

Lol. No. Sorry.. Most men are not going to marry the uneducated 10 with a boring personality who grew up in a mobile home. They are going to marry the funny, educated 7 who grew up in a middle class home in a nice neighborhood. When men are looking to marry (which is what most women ultimately want) they do not only take looks into account. The things men look for in porn aren’t the same things they look for in a wife.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (6 children)

I never said a man would choose a boring 10. Don’t put words in my mouth.

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            [–]apronandlace 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            I hear you. I went to a top college and majored in math, but I realized in the middle of that that all I wanted was to be a housewife to a nice guy with a good job and keep a health, happy home ;) so much for feminism and women going into STEM! I ended up getting a chronic illness so I'm not able to work at a regular job anymore, so following the feminist prescription became impossible for me.

            I'm sorry for your predicament and I think it's understandable to feel the way you do.

            random idea: maybe you already chose your field but could you do a feminine kind of medicine, like pediatrics or ob/gyn?

            [–]EmotionalSupportRat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Sorry you are going through this. I have dealt with depression myself and would probably quit, before putting myself through several more years of something I hate and that causes/caused my depression. To me, in hindsight, I would have preferred to quit my own studies rather then pushing through it, because I was left with anhedonia when I was done. The people I know that quit are doing better. One woman I know from uni quit after a year, met a great high value guy and had a child (at age 24) and is very happy with her life (I could have never imagined quitting myself and saw her as a failure at first...now I envy her). I learned that people can accomplish much more in a short time (even without a degree, but rather through charisma and connections), than what others with the best credentials but without a zest for life. Imho, you need to be healthy and retain some non fucked up-ness for marriage & raising children...for everyone's sake (looking at post partum depression, effects on the child if mom has been depressed for years). Are you mentally going to manage these studies? How does the work life of a doctor look like, can you live that life and does it satisfy you (some people like the status factor of if....but if that is not what drives you, is it worthwhile sacrificing so much)? That being said, I think there are some few women that manage to go through this type of study/career still with joy for life and with a good work life balance, but not everyone can be that type of power lady. Are there no nice men among your study peers? Since you are going through the same, maybe it would be nice to have a partner who understands the stress you are going through and who can support you (and vice versa). I would try to find someone there as a life partner. Do you have time to go out and enjoy yourself?

            [–]thelittlestpotato 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            I'd say aim for a man who is just as, or more, career oriented than you. Male doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. understand, and even value a woman who has a good head on her shoulders. My boyfriend's dad is a doctor and his wife used to work as a consultant for the Canadian Space Agency. They both worked hard until he started to make more than enough for their family to live on, and then she decided to stay at home. A friend of mine has a mother who's a doctor, and a dad who's a lawyer. They worked hard to build up their savings, and now they've both decreased their workloads to spend more time with their family. You don't need to become a workaholic to have a fulfilling career.

            I'd definitely recommend you work on your stress first though. Life can be really hard when you feel like you're trapped, and as another young woman struggling to finish a degree I stopped enjoying three years ago, I can really see some of my struggles mirrored in your situation. While what I say might not be entirely relevant to you, here are a couple things I've been telling myself to cope with the stress. 1. What you study in school doesn't have to be your life. You can always choose a different life for yourself, although it will come with its own set of struggles. 2. Your life isn't over. The clock might feel like it's ticking, but you have time! Time to change your career path, get married, start a family, go back to school, etc. Although fertility does start to decrease in your late 20s, there's women out there having healthy babies at 40. 3. FOCUS ON YOUR MENTAL HEALTH. I cannot stress this enough. It's great that you're going back to therapy, but give other things like positive thinking and mediation a try. Be feminine, healthy, and beautiful because it pleases you, not just because you think it'll get you a man. You'll get a lot more joy out of it. And finally 4. Learn how to budget so you don't feel like you're drowning. Cut and purge unnecessary spending until you're able to save and invest most of your money, even if it means fewer meals out, no new clothes, or even moving to a cheaper neighbourhood. You will survive, and you will come out stronger for it.

            [–]humanbynature[🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            I feel like if you applied to, were accepted to, and started medical school of your own volition, it means you have a very strong desire to be there. Does the material make your miserable, or is it the long hours and stress? While the medical route will probably lead to some cons like debt and stress, it opens up to a pathway of a life you simply cannot obtain in another field. There will be nothing in life you can't have. Your children will have the best of conditions to grow up in. You will be respected by everyone if you learn to respect yourself as settlingsounds, MD/DO. The end result of both routes cannot be predicted. I don't see how this will negatively impact your future, and I personally wouldn't throw away this incredible opportunity based on how others may perceive you. It feels like self sabotage.

            [–]PixieThePerv -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

            hahahahahhaahha thats why I chose to do engineering which is only a 4 year degree, despite of my parents ambitions. Hopefully i get out of uni asap

            [–]settlingsounds[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

            I was THIS close to switching to the engineering school my freshman year. Math and science are my strong suit. Hitting myself for being young and dumb. Sigh.

            [–]i_have_a_semicolon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Tbh If you wanna switch to software engineering it's essentially always on the table for any smart and motivated person.

            I had a 6 figure income at 22.

            [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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            [–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[M] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            I dunno what advice to give.

            Then you shouldn't be giving advice.