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THEORYThe Fear of the Wall and Why I'm Sick of Hearing About It (self.RedPillWomen)

submitted by [deleted]

There has been way too much talk of “The Wall” and a ton of misinformation and half formed ideas flying around here from people who haven’t done thorough research or don’t fully understand what it means. That ends today, I hope.

Definitions and Explanations

The Wall: A metaphorical term for a physical manifestation of a woman’s gradual or seemingly overnight decline from her sexual peak.

The Rational Male defines it as

the threshold at which most women realize their lessened capacity to sexually compete with the next generation of women in their ‘actualized’ sexual peak (22-24).

We all can agree that this is the loose definition most of us use, yes? So if you define your peak as 22-24, it makes sense that many would (wrongly) assume that 25+ is The Wall. Not so. In fact, RM goes on to describe what I believe is a much more important factor in The Wall for women and defines their fear of it:

However, there is a male part of the Wall equation that needs to be understood. 30 is also the general age at which men (should) become aware of their own, longer-lasting sexual market value and potential. This affects women’s interpretations of the Wall. Once a Man is aware that he has the capacity to attract the sexual attentions of the younger women he’d previously had limited access and understanding of, his actions and imperatives define the Wall for women who are approaching that threshold.

Notes From a Red Pill Girl explains it well when she says,

What is taboo to say in society today (but women should know) is that a woman’s most valuable assets are her beauty and youth, not her education, money, or career (that would be men.)

What This Means For You

Is there a wall? Yes. Will you hit it? Yes. Should you be aware of it? Yes. Should you obsess or be afraid? No! If you obsess about The Wall or are afraid of it, you will most likely settle down with the first chump that comes along because you’re afraid you won’t get anything more. Now, recently the argument was made to me that ugly girls have to settle and that marrying for love and passion is a new-fangled thing. Wonderful. Follow your own advice and enjoy your boring and stale marriage, plus the fact that you most likely will be divorced when your chump realizes there’s a woman out there that will love him the way he deserves. I’m aware there are ugly people. This isn’t a post about that. I’m talking today about The Wall.

Things that accelerate your ETA to The Wall

  • Excessive drinking
  • Smoking of any kind
  • Being a single mother
  • Being overweight
  • Sun exposure or tanning lights

    I tell you these things not to scare you but to motivate you. Don’t delay in looking for a husband. Don’t settle or marry the first guy that doesn’t repulse you. But look for a man while your SMV is at its peak. This varies woman to woman and your SMV, depending on what a man likes, will vary man to man. However GENERALLY you’re at your highest 22-25. You have the greatest chance of attracting what you consider to be the highest value male when you are also at your highest value. Find out what makes a high value man to you, keep yourself in top condition and go after it. Stay fit, stay healthy, dress feminine, up your girl game, hone your skills. These are all highly controllable things we can all do (pre or post wall) to ensure we land the highest value male available to us.

Preparing for Impact

Save it. We all know there are exceptions. We all know women who have gotten pregnant in their 40’s (Michelle Duggar, anyone?) or women who are 35 and crazy hot. These are general rules which is why I hate to see ladies obsess over The Wall.

I want to see you ladies stop saying “I’m about to hit The Wall” when I see from your flairs or your posts that you’re 22, 25, 23, NINETEEN. You never know when or how badly you’ll hit The Wall. If you’ve taken care of yourself, you’ll wake up one day and realize you’re past your prime. If you haven’t, you’ll most likely smash into it and you’ll be the chick everyone is looking at TimeHop photos on Faceboook of and laughing about how good you looked 2 years ago compared to the train wreck of today (Tara Reid, anyone?)

If you’re married, a fantastic added benefit of your matrimony is that you will no longer fear The Wall. As Notes From a Red Pill Girl states,

Married women who are happily so will benefit from ‘wife goggles’ which is a term that means her husband’s love blinds him to how his wife is aging and he still sees her as in her youth. You want those wife goggles firmly in place prior to the wall.

My MIL is 55 and my FIL is so in love with her and smitten by her he’s never even aware of other women around him. She treats him like a king, and he is obsessed with her, five kids and thirty-one years later.

Post Wall

What if you’ve hit The Wall and you’re still single? There’s still hope for you. You can still find a man, he just won’t be as high a caliber as you could have snagged if you were 20. You aren’t doomed to a life alone or a life of unattractive shlubs and bad sex. You still have worth. I think that is something a lot of women feel is that after The Wall they are worthless. Not true. There are men that don’t want children or who have children from previous marriages and don’t want more. Your fertility won’t matter to them. Maybe it will be an older man. My dad is 59, his girlfriend is twenty years younger than him but is still over The Wall.

The Wall is a thing and should be taken seriously but don’t let it rule your life. And for God’s sake, stop saying you’re about to hit The Wall. Women my age and older, when we hear you lament about it are literally rolling our eyes and I’m worried mine will fall out of my head the next time I read it.

If my post is lacking in a specific aspect or if you have a comment or suggestion to add, please do so below. I like to have my posts be as complete as possible so people reading them are completely informed. Any and all discussions are welcome, obviously, but please lets be mindful and courteous of one another.

All the best,

~Sadie

Edit: 999 edits to get formatting correct


[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 21 points22 points  (3 children)

Absolutely. Solid. Post. Through. And. Through!!!

Is there a wall? Yes. Will you hit it? Yes. Should you be aware of it? Yes. Should you obsess or be afraid? No! If you obsess about The Wall or are afraid of it, you will most likely settle down with the first chump that comes along because you’re afraid you won’t get anything more.

This should be the Tl;dr of this post. It's a golden nugget that summarizes everything that you write here. It's the bottom line - be aware of it but don't fear it.

Also, I cannot stress enough the importance of getting married while still in your prime. Wife goggles is real as long as you keep him satisfied. Become a nag, a critique etc and wife goggles will shatter.

I'd add one important note - to tactfully train our daughters (and sons) to think about what they want out of life in general and intimate relationships in particular from a young age. This has been done for millennia, it's a recent thing to let them fall into the deep end and be expected to swim on their own.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (2 children)

I thank you! I'll add the tldr when I get home, I'm on mobile right now.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I don't think you actually need to add a Tl;dr because I think people need to read the whole thing. Once you've read the whole thing, those few lines are a good summation.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

oh ok got ya

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (3 children)

Haha thanks, I was also getting sick of all these babies here whining because omg they're still single and are about to hit The Wall at 22!

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (2 children)

lol I actually said to one, "If you're hitting the wall at 22, wtf am I at 28?!"

[–]lyssavirus 14 points15 points  (1 child)

And I guess I'm in the ditch behind it at 34 :|

[–]NittanyLioness84 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I was going to say the next dimension lmao

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (8 children)

This is a good post! Very good. I hate seeing early twenty somethings obsessing over an imaginary peak they haven't met, yet!

[–][deleted]  (7 children)

[deleted]

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Well said.

    [–][deleted]  (5 children)

    [removed]

      [–]PantheraTigris95 15 points16 points  (3 children)

      Yes, but there are SO many other variables that are a lot more controllable than age.

      A 31yr old woman who is in shape, well-spoken, well dressed etc. is going to score higher with men than a 21yr old who is obese, unkempt, vulgar etc.

      So yes, on average, a 21yr old will do better than 31yr old, but you don't have control over your numerical age, so the point /u/MsSadieDunham is making is that it's a cumulative effect.

      [–]ragnarockette4 Stars 8 points9 points  (1 child)

      The vast majority of the high-quality men I know married women who were between 26 and 32 - it's not like 21 year olds are marrying successful 35-year-old business men.

      Perhaps they snag that businessman when he's 26, and they get married later, but if you're 27 and dating I doubt you're going to be competing for the same guys as these pre-Wall hotties everyone is so terrified by.

      And RPW suggestions for looking great, and being kind and playful will help you score the best man possible at any age.

      [–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (0 children)

      Well said. The Wall is an important concept because it's counter to what popular culture/aka feminism tells women, which is basically that you're equally hot at 50 as at 20, equally hot at 110 lbs. as 300 lbs., and equally hot in sweatpants and a t-shirt as in a cocktail dress. That's all BS, obviously. I think The Wall is basically a corrective theory to remind women that, yes looks matter, yes age affects your looks, and no it doesn't matter if you think that's fair or not.

      Capitalizing on your peak beauty years to find the best possible mate is logical. Taking care of your physical appearance and health to stay as attractive as possible is logical. Freaking the fuck out about aging is illogical. You either die young or get older, that's just life. Part of being RPW, which I never see referenced in discussions of The Wall, is being better and improving yourself...that includes internal work, not just fitness and makeup. Major insecurities lead to major problems, internalized fear leads to major problems, irrational obsession over appearance leads to major problems.

      If you take care of yourself, realize your best chances for snagging a fantastic partner are when you're near your physical peak (and most people your age are single and looking), you don't have to worry that much about The Wall. It'll come when it comes, and by then if you've lived your life making mostly good decisions (and had a bit of luck) it won't matter all that much.

      [–]glitterchild 12 points13 points  (1 child)

      Excellent post, I almost think this should be on the sidebar! Thanks for it :)

      [–]VigilantRedRoosterModerator 5 points6 points  (0 children)

      I agree, will be adding this next time I work on it!

      Much needed article, Sadie.

      [–]NittanyLioness84 12 points13 points  (4 children)

      The Wall is a thing and should be taken seriously but don’t let it rule your life. And for God’s sake, stop saying you’re about to hit The Wall. Women my age and older, when we hear you lament about it are literally rolling our eyes and I’m worried mine will fall out of my head the next time I read it.

      Thank you, OMG.

      By the way, I am about to hit the wall.

      I couldn't help myself.

      [–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (3 children)

      I'm about to hit you 😂

      [–]NittanyLioness84 8 points9 points  (1 child)

      As long as it is not the wall

      Oh noooo's

      [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

      Hahaha, this is all amazing.

      [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      As long as you don't hit on her.

      [–]NittanyLioness84 10 points11 points  (0 children)

      I hope I have already slammed into the wall.

      I am content with how I look. I can see my abs, and now I am focusing on having Michelle Obama arms.

      [–][deleted]  (2 children)

      [deleted]

      [–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (1 child)

      See that's what I'm trying to avoid have happen. You have all the opportunity in the world right now! You can learn skills, keep your n count low, get in the beauty habits, master a feminine look for yourself and work on your character and personality to attract a high quality man. Don't even think about it!

      [–]Ariel125 6 points7 points  (0 children)

      there is hope. I was carded up until I was 34 years old. I'm 35 now and just starting to notice a slight difference, mostly with under eye circles (but my career is really stressful). Take care of yourself, stay OUT of the sun, and you can last well into your thirties. I'm married btw (we've been together since my early-20s).

      [–]trnflln 5 points6 points  (0 children)

      Excellent post. To add to this, don't SPEND your prime dread-obsessed over the Wall. It will come, as it does for us all, but if it isn't there yet enjoy your prime and don't give it mental real estate.

      [–]VigilantRedRoosterModerator 5 points6 points  (0 children)

      Heh... I'm old enough to have dated several women who are post-menopause.

      19yo about to hit the wall... lol.

      The concept is primarily a channel marker, for young women seeking a top quality life partner not to waste their youth on the CC. It's not a waterfall off the edge of the world as some make it out to be.

      [–]pewpsprinkler 8 points9 points  (90 children)

      Okcupid did some great research on this. Breakeven is around 26, and after that age, men start to gain comparative sexual advantage over women of the same age, and this gap widens slowly over time.

      By the way, there is no "peak" at 22-24. The "peak" is at age 18, and that's only because ages 14-17 are illegal. If you could marry 14 year olds, then 14 would be the peak. Proof? Look at all of human history up until the last 100 years or so. Right now, 18 year old women enjoy a MASSIVE sexual advantage, while men in their 30s have a noticeable, but much smaller, one.

      Another thing that Okcupid proved was that the effect of age was not as big as people think. Yes, there was a measurable loss in attraction sloping downward from 18 clear into 40+, but it was a slight consistent slope. There is no "wall" where it drops hard. Not at 30. Not at 40. The fact is that a 45 year old woman who puts effort into looking hot can still look VERY hot, and can easily look hotter than most 18 year old women.

      The driving force behind women's loss of sexual power with age is mostly due to supply and demand, instead of declining looks: Men love to date down, while women hate it. This results in a situation where a 45 year old man will happily date any woman age 18-45, while a 45 year old woman is focused on men age 45-55. The older a woman gets, the more restricted her choices get, so the supply of possible men drops every year. With men, it is the opposite. This is the main issue.

      If women were as interested in dating down as men were, then the "wall" would almost completely disappear. The problem that a 40 year old woman faces is that she has to compete with women 18-40, whereas that man she is dating only has to compete with a narrow age range a bit over 40. Obviously in such cases, the man is going to have a huge advantage.

      That said, women I have known and dated 40+ who went to the gym, had good bodies, and used their massive financial advantage over young women to do things like dress well, never had a problem getting dates. Men don't see your age when you can rock a hot bikini body.

      [–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (52 children)

      I disagree about the teenager thing. My sister in law is 16 and awkward. Most teens I know are.

      [–]NittanyLioness84 16 points17 points  (8 children)

      I shudder when adults mention 14-17yo as sexual beings.

      My instinct to protect kicks in because they are children.

      [–]Willow-girl 5 points6 points  (5 children)

      Instinctively I agreed, but then I remember what I was like at those ages. I wasn't a child ... but probably didn't have the maturity to advocate for myself or protect my interests. I got really lucky, though, and didn't come to great harm. Not everyone is lucky, though.

      [–]testmypatience 2 points3 points  (4 children)

      This entire sub-reddit exists because of the need to help women learn how to "protect their interests" and mostly before "the wall" which tends to be around 30. Legality doesn't really mean much for actual maturity. The maturity of most 20 yr olds is pretty crap. Even 30 yr old women tend to be pretty crap with maturity.

      [–]Willow-girl 1 point2 points  (3 children)

      I agree the line is somewhat arbitrarily drawn (why 18, and not 17 or 19?) but I think society does have some interest in at least trying to protect young people (boys as well as girls). At 14 I would have disagreed vigorously, LOL.

      OTOH I fear modern society tends to coddle adolescents well into what should be young adulthood.

      [–]testmypatience 0 points1 point  (2 children)

      My point was adult women and men in 20s aren't very mature compared to their teen years.

      Edit... also that large detriment is done to their lives as young adults because they believe they are now mature but are not. An overconfidence that leads to huge debts, kids with people they won't stay with, and more divorce than should be had.

      [–]Willow-girl 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      T'is true that at that age, you don't know what you don't know, LOL!

      OTOH, I'm disturbed by the increasing infantilization of adolescents and the way adults in their 20's and up are still being supported by their parents. WTF?

      When I graduated from HS four months shy of my 18th birthday, my mother informed me that I was expected to pay room and board if I wanted to remain under the parental roof. I crunched the numbers and decided I could get an efficiency apartment for the same price and enjoy sleepovers with my boyfriend! I moved out and never lived with my parents again. Did I make some mistakes? Sure (shouldn't have married that boyfriend!) but I was capable of supporting myself and getting along in the world. How many 18-year-olds today could do that?

      [–]questioningwoman 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      For having sex sex sure but being sexual beings not really anymore. Right now it's the norm to watch hardcore porn at 11. By the time people hit 16, they've seen almost every sex act and fetish.

      [–]pewpsprinkler 2 points3 points  (42 children)

      There are lots of awkward people in their 30s, too. If your point is that teenagers are inherently awkward and therefore at a disadvantage against older women, then you are wrong.

      I don't happen to agree with the premium older men place on young women - the younger the better - but it is a fact, it exists, and the only thing stopping it at 18 is the law and massive societal pressure. There is a reason that pornography is strongly focused on 18 year old women, and it isn't because the primary paying consumers of pornography are 18-21 year old men looking for age appropriate fapping material.

      [–]Goodfortune20 6 points7 points  (40 children)

      The women in porn that play 18 year old women, though, are in their 20's and even early 30's. So these men don't even realize that they're masturbating to a woman who's like 26 (or even 30) and thinking she's 18. Men are honestly terrible at guessing a woman's real age . And I also know a 29 year old actress who plays characters 18-22.

      [–][deleted]  (39 children)

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        [–]Goodfortune20 5 points6 points  (25 children)

        Yeah, no.. a lot of them are not actually 18. Do you know what goes into a porn shoot? Lots of lighting and makeup. Plus a young looking 28 year old could easily pass for 18. Guys don't know the difference. Life experience: im older and guys that are like anywhere from 18-22 think im their age. I never get hit on by men older than 25. I got told by a 21 year old that I "literally look 20". Men don't know the difference.

        [–][deleted]  (23 children)

        [removed]

          [–]Goodfortune20 4 points5 points  (19 children)

          Late 20's isn't "old maid".. good god. Sorry you only know women who look old for their age, I guess. They're not being flattering, I really do look young for my age. Women tell me as well.

          And I was still very awkward at 18. I dint get more attention than I do now. I didn't peak until probably 24-25. You will keep arguing it, but it's true. Your mannerisms and facial expressions change a bit in your 20's.

          [–][deleted]  (18 children)

          [removed]

            [–]Goodfortune20 1 point2 points  (17 children)

            It doesn't matter if they "could".. the fact is they didn't. And that's all that matters . Obese women "can " lose weight. But most don't . Etc

            Most women look awkward when too young. That's a fact. Sure they have the chance to not look awkward if they put in effort, but most don't and it affects how men see them. Secure, mature men don't want to date someone who acts or looks too young

            [–]glitterchild 1 point2 points  (1 child)

            These other commenters are right you know. It's not at all uncommon for women in their 20s to play 18 year olds. And good lord it's not at all uncommon to actually look younger than you are without it just being "flattery" I work as a camp counselor during the summer. This past summer I actually started to get annoyed with how many times other people (staff and campers) thought I was one of my 15 year old campers. I was 22. And no they weren't being flattering. Lectures about how you can't be here without adult supervision when you ARE the adult supervision are not meant to flatter. This is a very common thing for me, and for several friends of mine too.

            [–]VigilantRedRoosterModerator[M] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            This thread wandered way off topic and became argumentative. Not the way we do business here at RPW. Temporary ban on posting here, reread Commitment or GTFO in the sidebar before you consider returning.

            [–]glitterchild 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Thank you. Oh my gosh. Men are honestly a lot more clueless than they think as far as the beauty and youth of women or else makeup wouldn't be such a booming industry.

            [–][deleted]  (12 children)

            [deleted]

              [–]pewpsprinkler 1 point2 points  (11 children)

              Photos are not a fair representation thanks to all the tricks people use, plus all the filters and photoshop out there.

              From the pic I'd say 25-30 somewhere probably, but since you already gave that example of a young looking actress you know in her 30s, that's probably her.

              One of my friends in her late 20s, looked under 18 and got loooots of creepy attention from men because of it.

              [–]Goodfortune20 1 point2 points  (10 children)

              Yeah right. You would guess she was 18 or early 20's if you didn't know

              And Most men my age don't even hit on me because I look so young. I find it hard to believe someone who looked under 18 would get "creepy attention" unless you live in a shitty area. High quality men don't creep on women who look underage.

              [–]FlowerAndWillowWorld 2 points3 points  (2 children)

              You sound extremely bitter. I would also guess that woman is probably in her late 20s. There's something about her face that doesn't quite look youthful, despite the way she's dressed. But who cares? Men are still fapping to her. I really don't get why you're trying so desperately to prove that men would never have sex with actual teenage girls. They wouldn't even be marketing porn stars as teens in the first place if it wasn't desirable. And you're definitely failing to see that some men actually find the "awkwardness" of teenage girls endearing, because to them it reads as innocence.

              [–]Goodfortune20 0 points1 point  (1 child)

              No. most people would guess she's like 23 at best. She has thick blonde hair, large eyes, thin yet curvy, and soft looking tan skin. The only reason that guy knew she was late 20's was because I gave it away in the comment before.

              And finding something "endearing" reads as childlike. So if a man prefers to sexualize children, then yeah sure, he will prefer a teen. Saying "all men like 14 year olds" over something else still young but a little older, like 18-22, is just weird though and not what I've seen. 14 year olds don't look like adult women unless they try really hard to look like one. A normal pretty 14 year old isn't going to be at her peak at only 14.

              [–]pewpsprinkler 1 point2 points  (6 children)

              No, sorry I didn't conform to your pet theory that men can't tell age at all, as if going off of one pic means anything anyway.

              I don't think you know why men don't hit on you. You can't read their minds. They aren't going to tell you honestly if you ask.

              Oh goodness... the ... I don't even... you think that "high quality men" are ubiquitous except in a "shitty area" which means what... a poor area? And as for creepy attention, she got it in person some, but moreso online. People are more honest online, so you see the ugly face of humanity - normally hidden behind a mask in public.

              I get told I look young all the time, but I don't put too much stock in it. It helps me in some cases and hurts in others.

              [–]Goodfortune20 1 point2 points  (5 children)

              Men online aren't the same as men in real life. Many men prefer giant fake assed women online. Doesn't mean they look for that in real life

              [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              I do see your point.

              [–]NittanyLioness84 4 points5 points  (2 children)

              Men don't see your age when you can rock a hot bikini body.

              Butterfaces.

              Ever since I have discovered the RPW, I no longer consider hearing about guys wanting to hook up with me because I know guys DATE DOWN and will have sex with women they wouldn't necessarily commit to.

              I wish there was a cool way to ask, oh he would bang me right? Would he wife me up and take care of me and 2.5 kids tho?

              [–]pewpsprinkler 5 points6 points  (1 child)

              I've dated women in their 40s when I was in my 20s. They were not butter faces. Just having some wrinkles around the eyes does not make a woman a butterface. Age by itself is not ugly at all at least through your 40s and sometimes even into 50s.

              You are absolutely right that being bangable is not good enough. Thing is, being bangable gets your foot in the door. It gets you male interest and dates. As long as you aren't hideous to the point where I would be embarrassed to be seen in public with you, then you absolutely have a shot at a LTR with me even if you are a "butterface", as long as the qualities that make a woman girlfriend material are there. The problem with most butterfaces that I've met and dated is that they tend to have shitty personalities. They are using their hot bodies to compensate for bad personalities, instead of using their hot bodies to show off their amazing personalities.

              I can remember at least a few women who I started off thinking "Ehh, I don't think her face is up to GF material level" at first, but then you know what happens if I actually (gasp) like you? Suddenly that face of yours stops being "rough" and starts to be endearing, unique, unconventional, etc.

              Some men can be superficial assholes, but most men are willing to give a woman with a 6.5 face and 9 body a chance if he actually likes to talk to her and likes her personality. What it comes down to is if he thinks that he can do better AND he thinks you will let him keep you on the hook while he keeps looking. If you let him think that, that's on you. That's why it is important to vet a guy and understand him before jumping into bed right away. I would recommend against fucking any guy unless he sees you as gf-material qualified in terms of looks.

              [–]VigilantRedRoosterModerator 9 points10 points  (0 children)

              I can remember at least a few women who I started off thinking "Ehh, I don't think her face is up to GF material level" at first, but then you know what happens if I actually (gasp) like you? Suddenly that face of yours stops being "rough" and starts to be endearing, unique, unconventional, etc.

              Can confirm!

              Further observations upon this: A higher SMV man with a lower SMV and low RMV (bitchy, unreliable, aggressive, no homemaking skills, etc) will make people say, "What is he doing with her???"

              The same man with a lower SMV but very high RMV (sweet, kind, feminine, good homemaker) will make the same people say, "She's such a nice/sweet/good woman!"

              [–]Goodfortune20 2 points3 points  (33 children)

              I don't get it.. What's the issue with a hot 45 year old woman wanting to date a man 45-55? A lot of women under 35 don't want to date men that are 45-55.. so is she really truly competing with them? A hot 35 year old woman will be able to date within her age range, as long as she has taken care of herself, no matter what the male red pill likes to say.

              And I don't think most 20 some year old or 30 year old men truly would want to date a 14 year old. That only happened in the olden times because people died at 30 and so 14 year olds were preferred so she wouldn't be too old and diseased to carry the offspring well. These days, we are living longer..most women do peak in attractiveness at some age that's more like 18-25. 14 year olds can be good looking, but the great majority still look way too awkward and childlike. I feel like a girl that peaks at 14 has terrible genes compared to a girl who peaks at 25.

              many attractive women peak in their late 20's then slowly, gradually go down and seem to hit the wall in their 40's or even 50's if they're lucky. I don't believe in this nonsense that most hot women hit the wall completely full stop in their 30's and then need to "settle" for an ugly. It's just not what I've seen in real life.

              [–]pewpsprinkler 1 point2 points  (32 children)

              I don't have an issue with any of it, I am simply pointing out why older women lose sexual power relative to men as they age: it is mostly basic supply and demand.

              Not all 35 year old women will date a 45 year old man, but plenty do, and all those that do are competing with that 45 year old woman, so it puts her in a difficult competitive situation where she has to compete with women age 18-45 while he only competes with a much smaller group of older men.

              A hot 35 year old woman will be able to date within her age range, as long as she has taken care of herself, no matter what the male red pill likes to say.

              Bro stop trying to argue with me when the post you're replying to said this: "The fact is that a 45 year old woman who puts effort into looking hot can still look VERY hot, and can easily look hotter than most 18 year old women."

              And I don't think most 20 some year old or 30 year old men truly would want to date a 14 year old.

              Because of social stigma. If there was no social stigma against it, it would be a lot more common.

              That only happened in the olden times because people died at 30 and so 14 year olds were preferred so she wouldn't be too old and diseased to carry the offspring.

              No, that's completely wrong.

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                            [–]pewpsprinkler 2 points3 points  (6 children)

                            The issue we are having here is that you, Flower, are an actual RPW and u/Goodfortune20 is not. She is a typical insecure feminist type who is in hard core rejection of red pill realities.

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                                  [–]FlowerAndWillowWorld 1 point2 points  (11 children)

                                  You're misunderstanding the whole concept of peaking. He's saying teens are at the top because they are as young as they possibly can be while also being physically able to have children. A young girl will recover from pregnancy much faster and easier, and will also still be relatively young even when her own children become adults. That is ideal as far as nature is concerned.

                                  It doesn't mean that a 22 year old who is very confident and comfortable with her sexually won't be far hotter than a 14 year old girl. The 22 year old would be way way hotter in most cases. But she will have already lost ~8 years time as far as mating goes, therefore she's not at her "peak" anymore so to speak.

                                  [–]Goodfortune20 1 point2 points  (10 children)

                                  It doesn't matter if she's lost 8 years, she's still hotter. The modern objective is not to pop out as many kids as possible. Maybe if it was then men would prefer 14 year olds, but it isn't. The guy was arguing that many men prefer the way 14 year olds LOOK over an 18 or 20. Really? The only reason a guy would like a pretty 14 year old over a hot 20 year old is because of the taboo forbidden aspect- "she's underage ooooo". That doesn't mean she is hotter, it means it's taboo and some men like the taboo of it. It's like being into twin porn or something. Taboo. Doesn't mean the twins are hotter than someone who isn't a twin.

                                  If you look at certain celebrities for reference many of them looked too juvenile and childlike at 14 and didn't get sexy until 18- 20 some. I'm sure you can find a few who looked "hot" at 14 but many of them don't and look too childlike.

                                  [–]LuckyLittleStarModerator | Lil'Star[M] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                  Trying to determine the exact point where this thread goes off topic.

                                  Many posts below this point were deleted.

                                  [–]YoungYogiMama 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                                  Great post! Must say, as i approach 26 i am starting to become much less annoyed at people commenting on how young i look. When i'm out alone with my daughter i am often asked if i am her nanny or big sister or get generally judgy glares as i look like a teen mom (i live in libtown san francisco)

                                  Hoping my naturally young look combined with my healthy clean lifestyle will push my wall back further. I already have a high quality hot man but i'm still vain and want to look good for him and anyone else with eyes lol. My mom is super skinny but a big drinker and has that kind of sunken in drunkorexic face - think i can avoid that since i eat better then her and don't drink.

                                  Looking forward to teaching my daughter all the beauty and wellness knowledge I've accumulated over the years that my mom never taught me!

                                  [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                  At 28, it's a component getting carded! 😂

                                  [–]needforhealing 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                  I used to feel really sad when people thought I was way younger..because let's face it, being 18 and told you look 14 sucks big time, the same with being 25, and told you look 18.

                                  Now I'm 27 and people say 22-23 and it doesn't bother me anymore but gosh it was so painful back then :/

                                  [–]redbrickdoll 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                                  If you obsess about The Wall or are afraid of it, you will most likely settle down with the first chump that comes along because you’re afraid you won’t get anything more.

                                  This is a great post. Well said, well thought out.

                                  [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                  Thank you!

                                  [–]Willow-girl 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                                  I'm so glad I didn't know this when I was younger; I would have been horribly discouraged! I left my second husband when I was 32. I had never really loved him but had married him because it had seemed like the sensible thing to do. (He was Mr. Respectability, which was a quality I was sorely lacking in my early years, LOL.) But eventually I just couldn't do it anymore ... I felt I needed to strike out on my own, live my own life and find true love. (And eventually I did, although it took more than a dozen years and two more marriages before I finally got it right.) :-)

                                  If I had read something like this 20 years ago, I probably would have been terrified that I was too old and it was already too late for me. I'd hate to think what my life would have been like it I had 'settled'! Not to mention all the fun I would have missed. :-o

                                  [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                  Exactly! It's good to be aware of it, but don't obsess over it. I've seen too much obsessing over it lately.

                                  [–]mLii 4 points5 points  (2 children)

                                  Yeah, that wall is happening, and it's gonna be yuge, sorry ladies.

                                  [–]NittanyLioness84 14 points15 points  (1 child)

                                  As long as Mexico pays for it...oh, wait.

                                  [–]mLii 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                  oh but they will, the US has leverage

                                  [–]IVIaskerade 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                  We all know (...) women who are 35 and crazy hot.

                                  But still not as much as they were at 22.

                                  Unlike a lot of TRP talk, the wall only ever applies individually.

                                  [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (12 children)

                                  the point of wall awareness is to keep hypergamy in check. as women typically date up, most assume the social status of their man. once she's been with the same guy long enough, she starts to look higher. there are countless stories of women in their mid-late 20s bailing on their college boyfriends/husbands not because he's a bad guy or anything but because of boredom and the classic "she's unhaaaaaapppy." after returning to single life, they turn around and crash into the wall and are left wondering why only losers and betas give them the time of day, and high value guys just pump and dump them.

                                  fact: it's drastically harder to obtain commitment as a post-wall woman than pre-wall. not only is a post-wall women averaging multiple HB points below the average pre-wall woman, commitment-wise, her fertility and likelihood of having all healthy children is drastically lower. this is catastrophic for her RMV. i look at these women who are 33-35 and just starting to give up on riding the carousel as the guys they're still able to attract just get worse and worse. they have this fairy-tale delusion that they'll meet a guy, get married 6 months later, and out come the babies. back here in reality, the medical papers say women should be finishing up with pregnancy around 35... not just starting their first dates. the average courting period from first date to marriage in the US is just under 5 years, and the probability of divorce is drastically higher for courting phases under 3 years. even when a couple tries very hard, mid-case scenario is that they can have a second kid 18-24 months after the first. so if you don't have your first date with a guy until 33 and you want 2+ kids, single post-wall women are either:

                                  • compressing the courting phase, drastically increasing the likelihood of divorce,
                                  • putting their yet unborn children's health at risk, because even at only 3 years courting, the first baby is at 36 and the second is at 38 [danger!],
                                  • forgoing kids

                                  and that's fine if you don't want kids, but millennial guys are already at record low rates of marriage... getting married now without wanting kids is practically unheard of. valuable guys aren't dumb... either they don't commit or they date 20somethings who have more time. that's why for women, 30 is the new 50.

                                  this applies to guys as well as girls... you owe it to your unborn children not to add unnecessary risk to their health.

                                  TLDR: get on it. keep your hypergamy in check.

                                  [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (3 children)

                                  "she's unhaaaaaapppy."

                                  A friend of mine I've known since high school has been married for the last six years. They have three kids, ages 5,3, and just turned 1 about two weeks ago. His wife, 24, just decided she's too young to be a wife and mother and is leaving him and the kids. I got in touch with him ASAP as I have experience with the family laws and courts, and made sure he had all his ducks in a row. But yeah. What a basic bitch.

                                  [–]YoungYogiMama 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                                  Wow thats heartless

                                  [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                                  Divorce is all too common, but how do you leave your children?

                                  [–]questioningwoman 3 points4 points  (3 children)

                                  Millennials aren't the only generation. If you date outside the Millennial generation, you get the same things previous generations of women got. Or you can marry a guy who's desperate for a woman in his 20s. Lots of them are FA. You can turn your FA into a mega hunk and give him a makeover after marriage so you can have the hot sex of your fantasies. If you can't afford a mansion, buy the broken down mansion and fix it yourself.

                                  [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                                  millennials are the only ones relevant to discuss.

                                  women from the previous generation are done. stick a fork in them. not only are they post-wall, at 35+, they're post-fertility. their RMV is negative to any guy who doesn't already have kids with them. they can still technically get pregnant but the risk of health issues for the child and/or mother is too great. they should not or cannot have children. with current divorce laws, there's no reason for a man to commit to them either. the guys who do, are by definition, purely betas. they're practically asking to get divorce raped.

                                  men tend not to date older, so millennial guys are not dating the previous generation.

                                  that's why the only ones who matter for this discussion are millenials.

                                  [–]questioningwoman 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                                  Yeah but this is a red pill women discussion, not a red pill men discussion.

                                  [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                  how is your point relevant?

                                  millenials are generally early 80s to early 2000s babies, meaning that millenials by all definitions are 35 at oldest. this means that women who are not millenials are either post-wall or children. in a discussion about the fear of the wall post-wall women have, by definition, already hit the wall.

                                  [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

                                  30 is nowhere near the new 50, lol.

                                  Please keep up your pathetic attempts in this sub to get women to think they need a captain at 20.

                                  [–]oncome123321 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                                  Guess who's triggered.

                                  [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                                  You!

                                  [–]oncome123321 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                  Wrong!

                                  [–]MasterBassion 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                                  Thank Christ this wasn't about trumps wall. Thank you.

                                  [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                                  😂

                                  [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

                                  Could the picture for the post be anymore perfect?

                                  [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                  I love it and I didn't get to pick it either, it's from the RM post.

                                  [–]Eli02 0 points1 point  (3 children)

                                  What if you like hiking ? Staying out of the sun? Aghhh

                                  [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                                  Sunscreen! A hat!

                                  [–]VigilantRedRoosterModerator 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                                  Yes... I have what I call "My ugly but effective hat." Wide brim all the way around and a neck extension around the back. Great for gardening, hiking, and other outdoor stuff. I hate sunscreen so this works for me. My arms and hands are quite tan, but my face and neck are well protected. Got to maintain my young cockerel appearance as long as possible!

                                  [–]Willow-girl 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                  LOL, my boyfriend is bald on top and has some pretty funky hats for working in the garden. :-)

                                  [–]SouthernAthenaEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                  This is definitely something I need to hear! I'm about to turn 25 in a week, and with all the RP stuff I read, I'm halfway expecting to turn into a prune on the day of my birthday! I keep thinking, surely I'm not through. Plus, I looked really baby-faced when I was 20 and have gotten a more attractive with age because of it (or so my SO thinks).

                                  [–]fetchyminx 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                  I hit the wall at 12

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                                  [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (16 children)

                                  There needs to be some degree of chemistry and compatibility there, and unless you have silly dealbreakers then finding someone is completely possible.

                                  This is spot on. The rest of it is, well, not the norm. I know you are not in an ideal situation with your boyfriend but that doesn't mean the majority of the world has had you experiences. I think at times your words of caution are definitely worth hearing for many women. I also know that I have a very ideal relationship but I don't assume everyone has it.

                                  We have our own experiences but to assume that everyone has them just because we see it as a majority in our lives is wrong. In particular, I think encouraging women who feel they are less than ideal to settle is a dangerous and unfair piece of advice to give which was my original problem with your comment.

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                                    [–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (14 children)

                                    Does anyone not realize that this account is likely a TRP troll? The whole "cat lady," men should be able to cheat but women shouldn't, women are controlled only by FEELZ, women should settle down at 19, bear children and shut up...

                                    This is a complete troll.

                                    [–]charlotteplusplus 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                                    agreed.

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                                            [–]VigilantRedRoosterModerator[M] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

                                            Mind your manners and use the REPORT function if you think a post has problems. Thanks.

                                            [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

                                            I knew you were coming.... lol

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                                              [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                                              I'm sure for many that is true. Not in my case, though. I'm more of a loner. I don't go after men, nor have I ever lacked for dates.

                                              [–]Banincoming 4 points5 points  (38 children)

                                              That last part makes it sound like you are advocating cheating on a LTR on the sly.

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                                                [–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (34 children)

                                                Yeah, that's a pretty disgusting sentiment to have. You are fine to live like that, but I would never tolerate a man cheating on me.

                                                Then again, I'm not desperate, so I don't know what you put up with.

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                                                  [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (29 children)

                                                  You don't understand. I don't want children, and I like spending a lot of time alone. I'm not married and don't want to be. I have a boyfriend, and I told him if we break up, I'm going back to spinning my own plates (dating multiple men). I don't fear any wall.

                                                  Now, I never said men don't cheat even on highly desirable women. I said I wouldn't tolerate it or look the other way. I'd instantly break up at any infidelity.

                                                  [–]Banincoming 4 points5 points  (16 children)

                                                  You don't sound like you aspire to be a RPW.

                                                  [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (7 children)

                                                  How am I not? Because I won't let a man cheat on me and I keep myself in great shape? Lol. I think RPWs would be insulted if you implied that an in shape, confident woman who would not tolerate infidelity isn't RPW.

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                                                    [–]charlotteplusplus 3 points4 points  (1 child)

                                                    because it is wrong. cheating is wrong. it is breaking a promise. no ideology can change this cold hard truth.

                                                    it is not about wanting children or wanting a career, but about love, life and keeping one's word.

                                                    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                                                    Because it's a poor example to set for your children.

                                                    [–]radioactivities9 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                                                    I think that RPW is about the truths we follow and believe, not what degree we live our lives for that.

                                                    Women have to think hard what she wants before just getting married and having kids cuz it seems the thing to do. Because you can't stop a woman from figuring out that life is not for her the hard way (and the hard way for her kids/husband). But I would not advocate a woman to take up lovers and be fine with her man having mistresses just because I would. That's the difference here. Feminists and misogynistic types both try to tell women how they 'should' be.

                                                    [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children)

                                                    /u/deadsandsushi uses RPW but if I'm correct doesn't subscribe to the whole ideology. But we like her here.

                                                    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                                                    Thank you <3. I truly appreciate that.

                                                    I really enjoy it here as well.

                                                    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                    I'd call you purple pill and as long as you aren't here to debate every last issue (which it appears you aren't) I'm glad you're here. You add a lot to the conversation that I typically haven't thought of.

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                                                      [–]practicewhatyoulearnEndorsed Contributor 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                                                      RP also pushes self-improvement at any cost. All you've done from your posting history is whine about how ugly you are as a single mother and need every surgery under the sun to ever be halfway decent ... so you complete missed a fundamental RP value and lesson there.

                                                      [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                                                      Women's RP strategies are different from mens. Your "candid" advice is actually just really bad advice.

                                                      [–]testmypatience 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                                                      What is the point of being committed to a partner if you don't ever intend to marry them?

                                                      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                                                      What's the point of marriage if you don't want kids?

                                                      [–]testmypatience 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                      That has no relevance to the question asked.

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                                                        [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (3 children)

                                                        There is no way in hell I think you're not a troll, but you're entertaining, to say the least.

                                                        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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                                                          [–]charlotteplusplus 1 point2 points  (3 children)

                                                          that is not a nice thing to say

                                                          [–][deleted]  (2 children)

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                                                            [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                                                            Basing "objective facts" on your life experiences is the opposite of being objective.

                                                            [–]practicewhatyoulearnEndorsed Contributor 4 points5 points  (2 children)

                                                            Why the hell would you be desprate after the wall if you've already snagged a man in your prime? That's the point - if you're 19-23 stop being over dramatic and lamenting your decline into a haggard crone. Instead, invest that time in finding a husband. Be the best wife ever, treat him like a king and (everything going to plan) wife-goggles, similar to rose-tinted glasses, will making the aging process gentler on you from his perspective. The only perspective that matters.

                                                            I've read your posting history. You have an SO. Start working on your own wife-goggles, not telling young girls in their prime to settle with the first non-junkie they meet. Your experience should not be your only advice.

                                                            Finally; you're new. To put it in perspective I started lurking (daily) without an account in 2013. Learn something. Understand (and I seriously mean understand) the RPW values. And then, then post when you can seriously add something of value.

                                                            [–]questioningwoman 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                            Why? Because someone can leave you the second you turn 40

                                                            [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                                                            And this is why I largely have a problem with you giving advice.