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DISCUSSIONI don't understand how Western men work (self.RedPillWomen)

submitted by [deleted]

I'm a Russian immigrant who grew up in Germany. My family raised me to be "feminine" but apparently Western feminism has destroyed the value of that.

I was raised to believe that men and women are equal in the sense that both have to work hard, pursue higher education and get a good job. Soviet ideals, you know. But when it comes to relationships gender roles are essential: Girls have to look the best they can, it'll make them feel more confident and make her man proud to be with her. Guys have to demonstrate that they have what it takes to protect their families. Behavior that is gender-conforming isn't bad and no part is disadvantage. It's all about the psychology for women and tbh this approach is so much more powerful than the empowered feminist approach that assumes discrimination and oppression behind every word. In Russia the man's job is to protect but at home the woman makes the decisions.

But now I live in Germany where girls ask me if it's true that all Russian girls want is money because I don't dress like a lesbian. I wait for guys to approach me but the only ones who do are sleazy immigrants (No offense, it's just the truth.) Meanwhile, all the good guys get taken away by girls who put no effort into their looks and watch soccer with them. They tell them what to do and they obey. It's a disgusting sight. They don't commit and think that this compensates that they behave like henpecked douchebags. I don't want to just go up to guys and basically tell them to be with me but it seems like this is the only way things work here. Also I hate how things are about sex here while commitment scares them away like it's AIDS or something.

Phew, finally found a place where I can vent! I often feel like I'm the worst racist or whatever because I'm not celebrating this system where men aren't men anymore and everyone sleeps around. I just feel so lost and don't know how I can find a guy that can make me feel like a woman and support me like a real man without fear of things getting serious (because that's what I want).


[–]FriendFrog 98 points99 points  (20 children)

Western feminism has destroyed western men as much as it has western women.

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (19 children)

And what are they doing about it? Or is there no counter-movement because everyone's too afraid to speak up?

[–]batfish55 33 points34 points  (0 children)

You really are naive, and I don't mean that in a bad way.

Any time any male speaks up, he's a misogynist, and his argument is instantly defunct. If he makes his opinions publicly known, he can get fired, or at the very least socially ostracized. He might never work or date again.

Any time a woman speaks up, she's a gender-traitor and a rape-apologist.

Where do we all go from here? Hope springs eternal. That's why I read RPW sometimes. It reminds me that unicorns might really exist. Seriously, good luck to you.

[–]Namelessfear9 28 points29 points  (0 children)

You have found it ma'am: The Red Pill. There are social/political movements that sprung up with and around it. Choose your desired level of involvement, it is my hope as a western man that every woman living in the western world convert two feminists into Red Pill Women. Many of our societal woes would be solved, and QUICKLY. Don't let the propaganda in Germany get under your skin, and I hope you find a REAL man of your own before we are extinct there.

[–][deleted]  (11 children)

[deleted]

    [–]FriendFrog 16 points17 points  (6 children)

    From personal experience, I found that the fastest way to make my friends into enemies has been not being afraid to share an opinion that differs from the norm & by being ambitious.

    [–]HobbesTheBrave 1 point2 points  (5 children)

    That's how you find your friends! You make it known what you think and feel, and you look around who gives you public support. And you forget the names of everyone else.

    [–]FriendFrog 3 points4 points  (4 children)

    That's exactly why I now have no friends.

    [–]HobbesTheBrave 0 points1 point  (3 children)

    Look elsewhere.

    Read up on "How to win friends and influence people" and other similar books.

    You'll find them.

    [–]FriendFrog 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    I live in rural nowhere now. No, I won't.

    [–]HobbesTheBrave 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    That's where you find friends! That's where families live throughout generations!

    Cities are where people go to die, Because they're all hiding in plain sight, becoming forgotten and never marrying.

    Talk. With. The. People. You. Meet. Talk!

    [–]FriendFrog 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Everyone here is either 10 years too young for me, old enough to be my parents, or married already. Single, legal, women prefer big cities because they have more options. If you were an actual RedPillWoman I'd listen to you, but you're just some guy with little of value to say.

    [–]tuyguy 9 points10 points  (3 children)

    Too addicted to drugs, technology and porn to even know who they are. It's a shame.

    [–]FriendFrog 3 points4 points  (2 children)

    I'd say it's the second moreso than anything else. I barely even know how to enjoy myself when I'm not sitting at my computer.

    [–]chief-w 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    Well, I'm my experience it depends on the guy. I've met guys who are so into porn that they basically don't know how to think of girls out side of a sexual context. And the drug problem, speaking about the USA from experience, is only getting worse. Say what you will about Trump, but his promises about fighting the spread of drugs resonated with the increasingly drug riddled rural areas of The States.

    [–]FriendFrog 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    That's funny. I watch a lot of porn, but mostly still images & amateur stuff, so I don't really think of it as an addiction as much as it is a way to kill time. I don't really know how to think of girls in a sexual context since I gave up hope so long ago that talking with a stranger regardless of sex is just "talking with a stranger" to me, guy or girl, I'm probably never going to see them again after the next a few minutes. People are largely just moving obstacles 90% of the time, like a car with no visible driver.

    I actually recently moved to a very rural area from New York. I haven't really seen or heard much about drugs when I was in either place, except that a friend of a former NY co-worker ODed on heroin.

    [–]HobbesTheBrave 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    The nationalistic movements are too wise to speak up, too cautious to get found.

    They know how to keep pravda on their lips. In fact, the difference between smart westerners and idiots, it is that the idiots believe the pravda.

    [–]FriendFrog 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Basically.

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    Redpill/MGTOW/manosphere/MRAs, and a smattering of sympathetic women. Conservative media I think is gradually incorporating some redpill ideas, but I don't think there is universal acknowledgement of how gynocentric the culture has become, including just how many women have internalized destructive feminist ideas, while not overtly identifying as feminists.

    Then there are a subset of traditional religious groups that will achieve greater reproductive success than their more secular counterparts, whether blue or red pill.

    Overt organization, as a movement, is difficult in the West because of concerns for social reprisal, which are not at all unfounded. Most of the mainstream media will never do justice to these issues, but their influence is waning FWIW. I think the "counter movement" in the West is going to consist of growing numbers of redpilled, but cynical men, checking out of committed relationships with women--going Galt (MGTOW or plate spinning). In Europe this will be combined with Islam expanding in influence and forcefully subjugating women, as Westerners fail to reproduce, and form happy, stable families.

    [–]Pxzib 34 points35 points  (3 children)

    I am a western man and I thought I'd never find a real woman with traditional ideals here in Sweden, so I just gave up and focused on myself and my career. You would never find me at a club or a party. You would find me by myself at the gym or in the library, reading or listening to music, or playing guitar in my band. I worked in the army for a while, but then I started studying Russian at University just for fun, and as a way to get away from the military life. Always been a science and language nerd, so it was a great opportunity to try delve deeper into those things. I also went online to find Russians to practice my Russian with, as a way to complement my studies, and met one Russian girl who was studying Swedish. We started chatting every day and teaching eachother over Skype. I had no interest in dating at all, I was just glad to make new friends and learning languages at the same time. Eventually we developed feelings for eachother, and the rest is history. Now we live in Sweden, are married, with a two months old baby.

    I am not sure where I am going with this, but it's just interesting how similar our situation was to yours. My wife had/has very similar mindset as you and wanted the same in a man as you do. If you want to find a traditional man going his own way, he's probably not going to pursue you or approach you. He will not be at the local bar flirting with women. He will be using his time to improve himself and his career. You need to find him and enter his bubble, and continue from there. If you want a general, find yourself a real soldier who is constantly striving for self-improvement.

    She was my first, and I was her first, and that is something we are especially proud of. She was 25 and I was 20 at the time.

    [–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (2 children)

    This is beautiful! I'm so happy for you :')

    I'm introverted, so this going to be hard but I guess you're right and I need to develop a strategy. When I think about it, I would hate a guy who likes bars etc. xD

    [–]sleepyweaselisawake 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    There really is no strategy when it comes to guys. We don't get approached/complimented because it's not the norm. If you see a guy reading/wearing something you like/doing something interesting go say, Hi, I noticed you like a thing. I'm into that too.. then let a conversation happen. I can assure you, you will have great results.

    [–]Pxzib 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    You are probably going to want to find an introverted guy. Someone who you can sit with in silence for hours, without neither of you feeling awkward or bored, just enjoying eachother's company. Unfortunately, you need to take the first step. Find a hobby, activity or area of education you like and use it as way of getting to know guys without dating. It's stress free and is going to work so much better for both of you if you're both introverted.

    Don't be desperate, unless you want to find a desperate man. Don't rush, take your time. You are still very young. You will find the man you are looking for, and he is going to be very happy you waited for him.

    [–]JackGetsItEndorsed Contributor 34 points35 points  (20 children)

    The west still has pockets of traditional men around but they are keeping very very quiet. They are attacked by feminist everywhere. Traditional men are not allowed to joke or speak freely because they will be accused of racism, sexism and mansplaining and they will be shamed and teamed up against by feminist. They can lose their jobs very easily because HR departments are dominated by SJW feminist ideologies and any accusation made by a female against a male is believed without evidence. So men are between a rock and hard place, they have three choices:

    1)become a beta bluepill feminist lap dog advocate,

    2)be an open dominate alpha that runs the risk of poverty/jail/social exclusion/divorce rape/false accusation, etc.

    3)keep to yourself, focus on career, lift weights, don't get married, and only open up with very trusting groups of people.

    I encourage you to look for these small pockets of people and give little hints about your traditional values and see if other traditional men and women bite on those hints. I'm from the states but I'm sure there are pockets of quality men in Germany as well. These men aren't afraid to hit on you they are just tired of hitting on feminist women that attack them for being straight forward. Continue to put yourself out there, continue to reject low quality men and don't settle/give in because they are straight forward, and continue to try to put yourself very close to quality men that will hit a switch and hit on you when they pick up that you're not a wacky feminist. This might be tough to except but maybe if you're hitting it off with a alpha type guy but you're not in the running with him (because he has better options) you can swallow your pride a bit and just ask if he has some friends or if you can hang with him as a genuine friend (do not allow this to be a plate situation!). A truly confident guy won't be bothered by you not fucking him.

    Hints ---> Look for military men. Men in corporate positions. Men that enjoy sports/hobbies/poker. Men at gyms. Go to less club like bars and find regular guy bars that have normal groups of local men socializing. Lots of regular guys don't like club type environments. They much more prefer low key pub/sports bar type places that women don't particularly go too (so they don't have to worry about getting attacked for being un-politically correct). Happy hour is also a much better time to meet people instead of late night drunkfests.

    Hope that helps. Let me know if you have any questions.

    [–]daisyskirt194 21 points22 points  (16 children)

    It's going to be very transparent (and a little desperate) to show up to those mostly-male type pubs as a Russian girl in her early 20s in heels and a dress.

    [–][deleted] 20 points21 points  (14 children)

    Absolutely!!!! People already see me as a prostitute most of the time just because I look Russian.

    [–]daisyskirt194 18 points19 points  (5 children)

    Perhaps it's different than what you're used to but living in a foreign country means you do have to adapt somewhat if only for the sake of avoiding social isolation.

    I love love my heels, but work in an area where the women are always in sneakers or birkenstocks. I absolutely hate their footwear, but wearing my preferred attire would make me stand out too much. So I compensate by wearing flats or cute boots with a small heel (or flat boots).

    If you look too unapproachable, then people will find you unapproachable. Wear some flats, take your makeup off and put your hair in a low braid.

    [–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (4 children)

    Many girls wear more make-up than me but they wear jeans and sneakers ALL the time which make me feel small and shapeless.

    I have the impression that a more masculine girl can wear what she likes but with me it's.

    Russian face + skirt = BOOM Stereotype!!

    I've already adapted a lot if you compare me to the girls who live in Russia. I just don't want to lose myself in this puddle where you can't tell women from men that is Germany. Travels to other European countries have showed that I really don't want to. (e.g. French H&M and German H&M are completely different stores. The French have really pretty things while in Germany it's always shirt+jeans.)

    [–]En-Zu 7 points8 points  (0 children)

    Just as a disclaimer, I'm a male: You can still wear a dress or skirt in flats. Heels and skimpiness aren't mandatory. Maybe try something that's just cute. Look up some indie stuff. There are mixed opinions of this person but I don't know a lot of actresses so she's all I have to suggest: Zoe Deschanel. Her wardrobe is typically feminine and never "desperate" or over the top.

    [–]tempintheeastbayEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    When in Rome. If you're being stereotyped you need to adapt to that reality and figure out a way to give a different first impression. "Skirt" can mean a lot of things, as can "jeans" - there will exist a happy medium between looking too 'sexy' and giving up your own sense of style.

    [–]En-Zu 1 point2 points  (4 children)

    What is a typical russian outfit for women? Is it like actually a streetwalker?

    [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (3 children)

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=et281UHNoOU (Turn the subtitles on and watch till the end! It'll tell you everything you need to know about Russian women)

    I look pretty much like this in terms of face and hair but without the fake eyelashes and more pinkish lipstick. Usually, I wear blouses, skirts, tights, not so high heels or ballet flats. My style is more bohemian than the average Russian that focuses mostly on looking sexier than every other woman in the room. That is already VERY different from the average German who wears sneakers, jeans, a t-shirt and no make-up except mascara, no matter what occasion.

    [–]EGOtyst 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Ha. That was hilarious. And ,as to what the people in here are saying, yes. Men in the west have been pussified. Sucks for them. Good for me.

    [–]En-Zu 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    I'm sure that's exaggurated but that looks like a tough life lol. Thanks for the vid

    [–]Startthecar27 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    What do Russians look like?

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    [–]JackGetsItEndorsed Contributor 6 points7 points  (0 children)

    You go where the quality men are. If the club is full of lots of hot overdressed chicks in high heels but only a few shitty 'player' type guys what's the purpose of being there? Granted every city has different types of bar scenes but I've noticed in lots of big cities I go to that girls will group up hardcore in certain areas because they think that's going to have the best guys when that's not always the case (the guys attracted to those scenes often are living at home and don't have busy careers). You can also find outfits that are still dressy but not 'desperate' looking.

    I don't want to dox myself so I won't mention the city I live in but one of the techniques lot of single girls use in my city is to go have dinner alone during happy hour and they eat up at the bar and have a glass of wine scoping out guys getting off work downtown. Its a safe space they don't have a bunch of other girls around them to scare off guys from approaching. I've met a lot of cute down to earth women that way and they didn't come off as desperate.

    Another tip if you want to do the late night club scene is only bring one trusting female friend, not a whole cougar pack. It's a lot easier to meet people in pairs then in packs.

    [–]aliceindankland 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    My boyfriend is number 3: keeps to himself, extremely ambitious, and took him a year to open up to me, haha. We met on tinder. As for where he spends a lot of his free time; he goes to the gym ALOT. If I were to run into a man like him, it would be at the gym, on my lunch break at a restaurant nearby his engineering firm, or through an alumni program as he is very active with his alma mater. I think the gym (take a yoga class, or ask a male for help with a certain machine) would be your best bet. Don't rule out online dating or meeting someone online either! Just vet them out throughly first.

    [–]Willkuer_ 10 points11 points  (7 children)

    It depends on were you live and where you go out. I am from Berlin, Germany, and I prefer Eastern European women for an LTR for exactly the reasons you mentioned. I know people who do as me. It's a quite common thing here that "traditional" (that sounds horrible) Germans date Eastern European women. We neither like the rioting lesbian feminists look-a-likes.

    Just go on. You will find one. Stick to bars. Get a girlfriend to meet you there. Every guy (possibly + wing) approaching you two deserves some of your time. Numbers only on the first date and only after stealing some hours of his time and energy.


    Btw Germany is somewhere between Russia and Sweden. In Sweden the girls approach as well, in Russia almost only the guys. I know that girls can be really successful in Berlin if they start approaching. But if you do not consider this to be your role then it won't work out.

    Honestly, it typically puts me off at least when the girl is average or slightly above average (up to 8) in looks and approaches me. I want to convince her by action that I deserve her (and more). I don't need her help to do that. 9's and 10's never approached me directly. They only communicated by eye contact. That's sufficient for me and should be your number 1 opener. If you think a guy is good for you just look in his eyes and smile. If he doesn't approach he is not worth your time.

    [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (3 children)

    Thanks for the numbers advice! I had to block several guys because I didn't want to give them my number in the first place but found it easier than to explain why I didn't want to see them anymore.

    I'm from the North-West and I think it's closer to Sweden in mentality. It's very hard to find "traditional" guys who go to university. It's really not in my nature to initiate. I have no idea how to do it without looking like I need sex. EVERY relationship I know happened because the girl decided that it was going to happen. They can stay together for decades without making things serious.

    I'll try and work on my eye contact game but am really afraid of looking...you know. I have already problems to make guys go away as I mentioned above.

    [–]Willkuer_ 7 points8 points  (2 children)

    Eye contact makes even game unaware men approach you. Especially if you smile while doing it. Just practice: look some strangers in the eye. Look the ones who can not approach you first in the eyes and smile (cashiers, waiters, people sitting in a train/bus that is leaving the station, ...). Then transition to people who walk past you. Only few man are brave enough to talk to a smiling girl walking past them. Then look and smile at people who you are attracted to and will be able to approach you (bars, cafés, waiting in a line, ...).

    Just remember that the guy's job is much harder.


    Some girls just try to be close to the man that should approach them. I - as a game aware man - recognize that. Others don't.


    If you are somewhere in a bar or café make yourself easy to approach. Sit slightly open to the room not directly facing your friend. Have some empty chairs around if possible. Don't sit in the corner where you can see the whole room but sit in the center of the room where everybody sees you. Do fancy stuff that leads to openers: Play games, dance to music, get drinks at the bar, laugh loudly if your friend is joking, wear a hat or try to juggle. All this stuff makes it easier for man to find some topic to talk about while approaching a stranger (you). Also you appear to be more fun.


    Regarding the number problem some honesty would be good. If you don't intend to even chat with a guy through messengers then don't give your number. Some girls seem to swap some digits to make the guy disappear. I don't like that. He was brave enough to ask for your number. Just tell him "no (, I have a boyfriend)" so that he can move on.


    Finding an LTR is a numbers game. The more people you meet the higher the probability you'll find one of the right ones. That obviously doesn't mean you should sleep with many men if an LTR is your goal.

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    I came across fuckboys who were like "Deine Beziehung dauert erst ein Jahr. Dann ist sie ja noch ganz frisch ;)" And kept hitting on me!! So disgusting. I'm often just trying to be polite and they think I'm flirting and don't accept a no. Then I block them (I felt that they were going to rape me if I didn't give them my number as I was alone in the middle of the night.) and had to deal with super-dramatic SMS "Du verpasst die Chance deines Lebens!" Some immigrants are super-direct and it's scary. The funniest part is when they start whining about all girls being heartless bitches. Oh yeah? Maybe it's because you approach them like you're searching for one.

    Sorry, even more venting :')

    Thank you for the advice!! It really gives me some hope xo

    [–]uebermacht 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    I agree with you, Willkuer_.

    Good general advice actually.

    In fact, Russian game is a very different path to go as you surely know already. Especially here in Berlin. Russian clubs like 'Klubnika' at Frankfurter Allee.

    Another fact is that most German girls have absolutely no game sadly.. ;/

    Tend more to Russian girls and luckily, some of them are in VIP areas in upper class clubs either.

    My advice to OP: MACH DICH SICHTBAR!

    Where the fuck should the good guys even know that you exist?

    Even if you don't like clubs and bars, try it!

    You will not regret it.

    • Не сдавайся! ;)

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–]Willkuer_ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Here only people with interest in each other smile. For sure I also met a lot of guys and girls without mutual attraction in bars. Sometimes they opened me, sometimes by friendly eye contact. However >90% of female->male eye contact is the female version of approaching. If you know each other in some sense (met several times in the same bar without further interaction) you often start acknowledging each other by smiling or greeting.

      However, "In life everything is about sex. Except for sex which is about power."

      About approaching: women should absolutely do it. Currently the mate finding strategy of many women is: I meet at a local gathering (bar, club, ...) with a friend and hope somebody will approach me. Sometimes I enforce it by looking others in the eyes, sometimes I smile at others, sometimes I try to be close to attractive men. That's it. You have basically near zero influence on the approach. Unattractive guys can approach you as well as attractive ones. A woman filters the weak after the approach. That however leads to women being able to only select out of a preselected group not out of the whole market.

      The male strategy is: I select who I am interested in. I approach by action, I lead by action. I am either sufficient or not. If I am not sufficient I approach the next girl. Thus, males select from the whole market but with much lower success certainty than in the woman's strategy. Male approach strategy is thus a numbers game. It's easy to control.

      The moment women start to approach they rule the world. The questions is just whether they want to do that. Maybe they rather like to find somebody who they can support to rule and to be powerful as a team...

      [–]JackGetsItEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      This is very good advice.

      [–]batfish55 6 points7 points  (7 children)

      Men in western society aren't men anymore. We haven't learned do deal with rejection. So the average looking girls get hit on. Oh no, she's too hot for me. She'd never talk to me.... And then we all lose out.

      And, just in case you're not aware....it seems like you honestly might not be....guys get fucked hard in divorce court. Hell, before we even get to divorce court, if you decide you don't like his sexual performance, or maybe he wasn't attentive enough....well, now you can cry rape. And whether its true or not, the accusation is usually all it takes for his life to be ruined.

      There are only a few kinds of guys out there: ones with no confidence, ones who are supremely confident but unaware of any consequences....and those of us who've figured out what's going on and don't want any part of it.

      Best of luck to you though. I'd suggest trying to get picked up someplace where successful business men lunch. Be careful tho, I hear Germany's not the best place these days, what with refugees running about rampant.

      [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (6 children)

      The sad part is that it's only the refugees and the Turkish/African immigrants who actually approach girls.

      [–]batfish55 5 points6 points  (4 children)

      I suspect, in those cultures, back in their home countries, there's no such thing as 'sexual harassment' when you tell a girl she's pretty. Not like in western countries. Learning to legally afraid of approaching females just isn't a thing.

      [–]Boobear3 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      I think you're watching too many sit coms or something. You can approach young women as long as you're young and attractive. Women literally only bitch about ugly men approaching them. This whole feminist "attractive men can be creepy" is mainly false. You shouldn't go up to a girl and be overtly sexual and expect her to not be creeped out though. Giving her a normal compliment is fine and you're not going to get in trouble or arrested, honestly that's silly to even assume.

      [–]flat_tree 2 points3 points  (2 children)

      Sounds like how the mexican immigrants were to white girls in the US few decades ago...

      [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      What happened with the mexicans?

      [–]flat_tree 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      same lack of social cues and what not

      [–]flat_tree 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Yeah, I'd stay away from the "refugees" and the cultural enrichment that europe is going through, I'd absolutely avoid bars based on what you're looking for.

      Festivals are different though!, Octoberfest!!!

      [–]gamermainer 12 points13 points  (0 children)

      Because of feminism a lot of men are turned off. Traditional women are harder to come by and quite frankly, unless you look like Chad, most women are not worth the effort.

      [–]Lahdebata 5 points6 points  (0 children)

      There are plenty of real men here in the US. Avoid bars, clubs, etc. Go where you'd expect to see powerful alpha men. Think what are their interests? Military men, policemen, firemen, some healthcare industry men. Go to gyms with care, both types of men go there. And I'll probably catch some hate for this, but conservative men are far better for relationships than liberals. Men who dream of a great family life, go to church, work hard, etc...those are mostly conservative men.

      [–]En-Zu 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      What I've understood feminism to be for a long time is the self-destruction of the female identity and an attempt to render everything male. Feminism is the cry of "I can do that too." From wearing men's clothing and shirking more feminine clothes to actively disdaining traditionally feminine tasks.

      Admittedly most of these developments were positive. In the end, it will pan out to women adopting traditionally female things out of choice rather than by social decree and you will start to see the pendulum shift back. This will lead to the best of both worlds, allowing the majority of women who are CIS to fulfill their imperative but also not mandating those who don't fit that mold to do so.

      What won't shift back are the sexual attitudes towards commitment that you've mentioned. Young people in the west are skeptical of marriage having seen it most collapse around them when they were younger. There's a bunch of different reasons for that but a large part of it is really due to female financial independence. Women don't really need a provider figure so their instinct kicks in and they try to go for one of the top 20% of men and inevitably don't succeed in getting the kind of long term relationship they want as they get older.

      The red pill narrative revolves, like a carousel, around the central metaphor of the CC (cock carousel). It's essentially a description of how unchecked hypergamy leads to wall-hitting as women try to fulfill their dual drives for first An "Alpha Male" and then "A Provider" (after the "wall").

      When women are allowed to freely pursue these two separate aims how are men supposed to respond? Well, you can separate them into have and have-nots (either by 60/40 rule or 80/20). The haves, the "alpha males," have unchecked power in the early phase of the wall and have a lot of leverage in any relationship. Whether they want to apply that leverage or not is up to them. Sometimes an "alpha male" will voluntarily gives up leverage to commit but that's basically a female unicorn. But most of the time he'll either apply it to get what he wants or have multiple partners and not "commit" to any. This is "spinning plates."

      Now, what are the have-nots to do. Their strategy has always been overreliant on commitment. They are the "nice guys." But the real question is, do you want what they have to offer (not alpha-ness)? Can women really learn to be happy and sexually satisfied with a beta male? Do we even want to go back to the old traditional unhappy universe where women are forced to commit to sub-par men because of necessity? I wonder...I don't know if you can lay the feet on women for all of this because I think that the quality of men is also woefully low. They're mostly lazy and unfit. No wonder no one wants them. But the 80/20 rule seems to suggest that women form a dominance heirarchy of men so that even with a group of very fit and reasonably attractive men they'll all go for the top 20% of that group.

      What's interesting about eastern europe that I've heard is that the relative lack of men compared to western europe means that men are increased in smv by default and thus don't act as cowed about what they want.

      [–]TheLemming 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      This is one of the reasons I find myself regularly drawn to Russian women :D

      [–]Kizka 4 points5 points  (2 children)

      I am a half russian/half german immigrant with parents feom the Soviet Union who grew up in Germany.

      I must say I am very glad that my parents have never been too typically russian and always let me be the way I am. They never pushed me to be super feminine, which I am not, they never pushed me to find a guy and they never pushed me to become a mother.

      This resulted in me becoming a confident woman with a good job and a stable relationship with a german man (I could never be with a russian man - too much alcohol, too much macho behaviour).

      I would say if you look for a more traditional or conservative man you must either look in the russian community or abroad because you'd probably wouldn't be happy with a german (western) guy.

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      For me macho behavior is the opposite of manliness and a sign of insecurity. But I also wouldn't want a Russian guy (enough problems with alcohol in the family and nothing new/interesting). I would like something in the middle: Russian support and passion with German discipline and ambitions. Is your boyfriend like that? Are there moments when you have to realize that you're Russian and he's German or are you completely "Germanized" when it comes to relationships? All the relationships I see are Russians with Russians or Germans with Germans. I suspect that I might need something completely different. Just don't know where to look.

      [–]Kizka 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      Well he barely ever drinks, in all the years we're together now he was drunk about two times - while not drinking that much actually, he just doesn't have a tolerance for it, which I like. So he in this regard he is absolutely the opposite of most russian guys. Also there is zero jealousy. Like, nothing at all. He just trusts me and says if I ever wanted to cheat, there wouldn't be something he could do anyways so there is no point in jealous behaviour. I love this. Also the complete opposite of most russian guys.

      He has a wonderful sense of humor though. That's why my parents love him so much and consider him more one of us than a 'proper german'. " Он наш" and all that jazz. Also he is very generous, doesn't take himself too seriously and is always there for the people in his life if they need them - even if they might annoy him :) In these regards I would consider him to be more like Russians than Germans.

      He also isn't a 'proud feminist' but we don't have a red pill relationship either. It's more like...for me, his happiness is more important than my own and for him my happiness is more important than his own. So while everyone of us tries to make the other one happy, we are equal in the end. I wouldn't want to have it any other way so personally, I wouldn't be happy with a more traditional/conservative guy.

      [–]Juk9876 5 points6 points  (10 children)

      I will give the advice that I end up giving to most women that are looking for a traditional relationship: go find it on the Church. To date with secular guys/girls at this moment in the West is a disaster. Most guys are beta SJWs that looks like women, most girls have their mind brainwashed with feminism, casual sex is the norm, you will be looked as an alien when trying to withhold sex, no one "normal" do that these days. The only place that you have a good chance to find a satisfying traditional marriage is in a religious context.

      [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

      What happens when they find out you're actually not religious? I would feel duped.

      [–]Juk9876 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      I am not suggesting that she fakes that she is religious to get a husband there. I am suggesting that she should get a religion.

      [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (6 children)

      My family was raised to believe that Vladimir Lenin is their lord and saviour so we're very sceptical about all ideologies and belief systems. My aunt's husband prays and goes to church regularly and it's already too much and we treat him like he's joined a cult. I agree tho that religious people have what it takes (traditions, certain roles that are just natural, family-orientation) to keep a society healthy and together and I wish modern people would understand that.

      [–]En-Zu 5 points6 points  (2 children)

      You don't have to be religious at all to believe in separate gender roles etc. You clearly are an example of that. And I would say that acting that way because of religious belief is inflexible. It causes gender roles to be mandated instead of preferred. Like if a woman works as a mechanic and her husband is a nurse its not religiously unacceptable etc.

      I wouldn't compromise on your religious beliefs to find a suitable man. Instead I would be open to the idea of coaching. All new relationships require some learning but one with you might require more than usual. Just find a guy that has confidence and career etc and, even if he isn't as assertive as you'd like at first, it's probably because he's trained himself to be that way. Find opportunities to encourage the behavior you're attracted to. Chances are that he'll like it and fill the role out nicely and you'll offer him something that no one else can and ideally he'll have a good combination of Western self control and respect and Russian aggressiveness and control.

      He's not going to come out of the box that way though...and honestly I think this attitude of "finding Mr. Right is the worst part of modern relationships. My advise is finding Mr. Right Enough and then, because people change, slowly teaching him your preferences.

      [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      Yessss!! I always believed that relationships are about encouraging each other to develop the good they saw in each other in the beginning. If a woman calls her man "dirty cheater" every day, she shouldn't act surprised when he starts to believe her.

      [–]En-Zu 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Sure enough.

      Yeah I mean it might be different here in America than it is in Europe but there shouldn't be a shortage of assertive guys. It's human nature. As for making them as assertive as you're used to...I'm not sure about that. Girls are more "romantic" in that they just want guys to be perfect naturally when literally nothing about being a perfect guy comes naturally. So my point is really, not to lower expectations, but realizing that the things you're complaining about are cultural expectations that can be overcome with patience.

      I'm also INTP high five We're clearly the best people.

      [–]Juk9876 3 points4 points  (2 children)

      y family was raised to believe that Vladimir Lenin is their lord and saviour

      Well.... he wasn't. He is dead. The soviet government is dead. The Church is alive and for two thousand years encouraging the traditional family that you desire. Maybe it is time to change your own brainwashed ideas about Lenin and Communism.

      [–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (1 child)

      Technically, Jesus is also dead :p They never believed this and it cultivated a huge mistrust towards ALL belief systems/ideologies and they raised me to keep to my own moral compass at all times. I have an ingrained fear of being brainwashed BY a religion. I know that I have prejudices that I should get rid off and I do see the value in the hope and sense of community that religion offers. I'm sorry if I offended you :(

      [–]Juk9876 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

      No offense taken. Lenin died and the Soviet Government lasted for how many years? Now compare it with the Church alive two thousand years after the crucifixion, it is a clear sign of supernatural interference. I hope you can get rid of this fear of religion. There is one reason why the moral/traditional framework was kept on the Church but is almost completely destroyed in secular environments, it is because it is fixed on an objective moral law-giver. Good luck!

      [–]stoicman15 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      First of all: be proud of yourself. You are good as you are!

      My SO is the same as you - so I know the issue first hand. It is a fact that most other women who say mean things because they envy you/would like to be like you.

      Stay true to yourself. There are real men, Alpha + RP (obvious) out there - one day one of them will approach you. The thing is that they are just so damn rare - and you may not find them in a Club...

      [–]vitringur 9 points10 points  (1 child)

      The problem is that you are not living in 19th century Russia. There simply is no economic incentive behind the ideal relationship you are looking for.

      It's weird that you say that the "good guys" are taken, that clearly have different values from you and are not acting in a way that you would like in a man.

      At the same time you shun at "sleazy immigrants" who probably have values that resemble yours a lot more then the western ideas of freedom and equality.

      Edit:

      Back in the day you would also have to be patient and wait until you got a decent suitor, or until your father was able to arrange a marriage.

      You already know how to be feminine and pretty. Now try new things. Lead your own life.

      Don't just whine about prince charming not having swooped you up already to save your life so you don't have to worry about anything anymore.

      [–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (0 children)

      I'm not talking about 19th century values but Soviet values. I don't want to be "sold" to a Rich man. I want the guys who are interested to come up and show interest in me as a person. I want a guy to behave respectfully and make me feel secure without focusing on sex. Despite all the problems with alcohol etc. Russians are really great at this.

      With "good guys" I mean the ones who don't look bad and have a decent job that puts them on my level.

      The immigrants I talk about are Muslim and mostly see white girls as good for fucking but end up with Muslim girls. They really don't act too respectful.

      I don't want a prince charming. I want an equal who gives me the security that I can let down my guard with him and he'll stay despite the problems.

      But you're right that I have to try new things. I have no choice but to adapt. I just hoped for some insight.

      [–]CcyCV 1 point2 points  (2 children)

      Hi! I haven't written before in this sub but I've lurked for a while and I just felt I had to chime in. You might get some good advice by reading The Rules. It's sort of outdated but there's some good stuff there, specially about how and where to meet quality men. Specially about volunteering or doing charity work to expand your social circle, but in topics that don't go against traditional values (no SJW or feminist associations, for example) I hope it helps :)

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      Thank you

      [–]Rivkariver2 Star 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Just a caveat about that book--the traditional general message behind it is good, but it is extremely rigid and legalistic about some of these "rules," and in your case that might be bad given the culture around you. For example, they have rigid rules about never approaching him or even saying hi first or even standing near a guy you like or making too much eye contact. If you follow that rule in Germany the guys might never make a move.

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Australian/American men are not generally like how you describe. Girls do not have sex with the weak men.

      [–]RedPill_Swinger 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Italian here. Our situation is compromosed. I've been travelling regularly to Eastern Europe (Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Poland, Hungary) for years looking for a LTR and the reason is that those are non-feminised countries where you can still be considered a human being by bisobeying the feminazi dogma.

      [–]RedPill_Swinger 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Italian here. Our situation is compromosed. I've been travelling regularly to Eastern Europe (Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Poland, Hungary) for years looking for a LTR and the reason is that those are non-feminised countries where you can still be considered a human being by bisobeying the feminazi dogma.

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      "Meanwhile, all the good guys get taken away by girls who put no effort into their looks and watch soccer with them. They tell them what to do and they obey. It's a disgusting sight. They don't commit and think that this compensates that they behave like henpecked douchebags."

      I suspect most of these guys got involved with these women because they perceived them to be the only available, semi-acceptable women around. These women probably sweetened the deal by giving it up easy, which gives them an edge on a more attractive, but aloof woman.. Though I believe men (even non players) are generally more courageous about facing rejections from the opposite sex than women, there are limits to the willingness of most men to face repeated rejection, and most men are not willing to hit on large numbers of women--and face multiple rejections--to find a high quality woman who also happens to reciprocate interest in them. Add to that that in a culture of widespread sexual promiscuity, most attractive, feminine women are at any given time in some form of a sexual relationship during their prime attractiveness years, or are at least assumed to be. So in practice many men settle on whatever mediocre options they have sitting right in front of them.

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      That's sad!

      [–]debtisbadforme 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      To the above poster mentioned aren't men in America any more either. I think it is all the law suits and such.

      [–]HobbesTheBrave 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      I was raised to believe that men and women are equal in the sense that both have to work hard, pursue higher education and get a good job. Soviet ideals, you know. But when it comes to relationships gender roles are essential: Girls have to look the best they can, it'll make them feel more confident and make her man proud to be with her. Guys have to demonstrate that they have what it takes to protect their families.

      Continue listening to what your babushka told you. Western feminists are trashy and unfeminine.

      Also I hate how things are about sex is here while commitment scares them away like it's AIDS or something.

      I would imagine that in Russia, there are ways for men to get rid of crazy women.

      [–]Mirella311 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      In Russia, one woman dies from domestic violence every 40 minutes. Sounds like paradise for sure.

      [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      Those women are usually already alcoholics married to an alcoholic. Every country has it's problems but if you prefer to live in a world full of hostile stereotypes, please go on. I'm happy for you if your country has no problems whatsoever. But condemning whole cultures because they're not perfect is disgusting imo.

      [–]HelloNeo 0 points1 point  (3 children)

      Honestly, maybe it's due to your venting but you don't sound like a catch at all.

      [–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (1 child)

      That wasn't my goal. I just want to understand how I can deal with the very different gender situation here that goes against all that I was taught to expect and be like. It's hard to abandon your values.

      [–]HelloNeo 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      Don't ever abandon your values just because most of society is essentially doing the exact opposite of what you believe in.

      Just keep working on yourself in every aspect and perhaps look into dating an older age group of men who are generally more mature and traditional. And keep your options open. Even to what may appear as a sleazy immigrant.

      [–]tuyguy 5 points6 points  (0 children)

      She sounds hot, EastEuro and conservative. What's not to like?

      [–]md8716 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Late reply, but I want western men to stay exactly where they are, because good captains are becoming so increasingly rare that my own value skyrockets.

      It's so easy for my wife to look at most other women in shitty BP marriages and feel lucky that she is with me.

      [–]TomHicks 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      I wait for guys to approach me but the only ones who do are sleazy immigrants

      Where do these sleazy immigrants tend to be from?

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      I usually don't talk enough with them to figure it out but it's mostly Africans and Turkish. Syrians look more frightened by the people around them. Must come from PTSD. Muslim girls told me that Iranians are the most civilized but I haven't met one so far.

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