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DISCUSSIONJust a bit depressed about modern marriage (self.RedPillWomen)

submitted by pisellipod

A bit of a rant and maybe discussion.

I am in my late-20's and have dated a lot. Many men see me as a great companion and even have said "a girl to marry" and "wife material." I keep myself fit and attractive, watch my diet extremely carefully, have lots of interest in politics, philosophy, worldly knowledge, and men say I'm very pleasant and nice to talk with and spend time with. I can also cook and generally am organized. I work in education so I'm good with children.

Perhaps it is the men I'm meeting, perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place, perhaps it's an issue with modern men. Since I am in my late-20's, then men I am dating are 33-40 years of age. All of them have a RP awareness (even if they don't specifically identify) and by this I mean that they have an strong awareness of divorce rape, of ex-wives taking away their children, of girlfriends cheating, etc. Pretty much all of the men I've dated are EXTREMELY cautious, paranoid, or wary about marriage. Some of them even just dote on their friend's children or their sibling's children, just to have a child in their life but doesn't belong to them. They all love the single life - basically concentrate on their career, travel wherever they want, not have the burden of a wife (financially and emotionally), can pretty much have short term girlfriends wherever they want without the commitment. These men are from US and Europe (generally central, southern and Eastern).

I feel depressed because even though pretty much all the men I've dated compliment me on my companionship and beauty and family values, none are willing to commit UNLESS it's absolutely required (eg. moving for a job for legal benefits). They don't see marriage for love or a family unit, they see marriage solely as a contract. They see women as only a girlfriend, as long as you're pleasant, attractive and interesting it doesn't even matter if you cook because these men don't want to come home and have a home cooked meal every night. These men want to go out and have dinner/drinks with their buddies/female friends - they're totally fine just having a social circle or a friend group, or just business colleagues, and have your "girlfriend companionship" when they want it.

You can't even demand marriage as a woman because 1) No man ever likes being pressured and 2) As a woman you would hope that you show him what you could offer to his life but it could still drag on for years and years with no sign of legal commitment (even if you don't cohabit!) Men nowadays are perfectly fine even having their own apartment, living single, because as long as they have friends (male and female), who needs a wife?

It is just sad to me, that as a modern female, we are seen as a burden. Even if we offer something good in their lives (dual income, household chores, good sex life, companionship, good conversation, networking, maternal values)........there's really no need for marriage. We can offer our value but men nowadays will still see us as just a side dish to their single MGTOW life.

Edit: I'm just adding a rant and clarification: it doesn't matter if women are respectful and don't nag. Men will always feel obliged to please their wives therefore we are still a burden, men don't want to always accompany their wives to events she wants to go to (eg. she got tickets to a concert, he's tired, she wants him to go but then it's seen as "dragging him along") so I feel like there is literally no point. As a woman you have to wait for him to WANT TO take you out. We cannot have our needs met, we cannot ask for anything because then we are a burden. How many times has a man told you **"I do something for you because I want to, not because I have to?"

CONCLUSION: Men just want the girlfriend experience. We are burdens to them. Even if we bear him children and run a smooth household, and don't nag, men on a basic level still want to see an attractive and fun woman whenever he wants to and it's not every day. Men are rubber bands theory? It still happens in marriage.


[–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children)

Gentlemen, please remember that this is Red Pill Women. If you want to talk to the OP about marriage and explain to the women why marriage is negative from a male perspective, please do. If you want to complain about marriage to each other, please take it over TRP.

[–]kellykebab 82 points83 points  (7 children)

Don't date guys who are still going out all the time in their late 30s.

[–]renegade 13 points14 points  (3 children)

This should be higher.

[–]kellykebab 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Thanks. Solution couldn't be clearer based on this woman's description, and yet people are debating whether women are or are not a "burden," the social issues surrounding marriage, etc.

Just date guys who, by their actual behavior demonstrate that they are interested in settling down and leading a domestic life with a woman.

[–]renegade 6 points7 points  (1 child)

I can't support the conclusion OP came to. I like being a father, I have sole custody of my 3 daughters. I also have two step kids and an amazing new partner.

My sample size=1 experience as a guy was that I was married to a woman for 20+ years who couldn't figure out how to be supportive and remain a viable partner. My current LTR has been very different. She is much more interested in my being alpha and leading the way while not shying away from having a great career. Takes two.

It seems like there are plenty of guys out there who are perfectly interested and capable of being great partners but it is complicated :-)

My bottom line for my LTR and the advice I give to other guys when it sounds like they need it is to remember the 3 relationships you have; co-parents, life partners, and boyfriend and girlfriend. You have to remember and maintain all of it, just like you have to put deliberate effort into eating well or staying fit etc. etc. It doesn't just happen.

I AM looking forward to all the kids being out of the house while we are still in our prime. We do a lot of living already but there will be more flexibility when we don't have to bring or worry about the kids.

[–][deleted] 60 points61 points  (1 child)

I think you just have to bring up what you're looking for early-on (i.e. that you're dating so that you can get married and have a family).

Not all men want/value that but plenty of men still do. If you're absolutely deadset on it, honestly consider religious circles.

[–]Ianchez 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Or southamerican countries where marriage and conservadurism still prominent.

[–]_Citizen_Erased_ 44 points45 points  (11 children)

If you could swear some kind of oath that your desire for my affection and attention wouldn’t mysteriously dry up at the 1-2 year mark, I’d be totally down to marry you. Sorry, but whenever I show weakness or break frame I permanently lose a small piece of your sex drive, and little by little you convince yourself that you were never in love with me in the first place. I can’t take that kind of risk anymore. I’ve had my heart broken by women that were obsessed with me at the 6 month point, and “something is missing” a year later.

[–]Rivkariver2 Star 10 points11 points  (1 child)

That used to be called marriage vows.

[–]SKRedPill 7 points8 points  (0 children)

They were enforced precisely because society understood a long time ago that sex and attraction is just not strong enough glue for a lifetime. Relationships based only on sex (even in the animal kingdom) are not durable -- all other relationships are either from infancy or don't have sexual needs involved.

[–]pisellipod[S] 9 points10 points  (8 children)

And men don't have the same for women? When we get older, will you still want sex with us? Why not find a younger version?

[–]SKRedPill 32 points33 points  (2 children)

Male attraction isn't like women's. It's a powerful drive, so it can tolerate quite a large deviation from peak SMV. It takes practically very little to ignite it. My guess is that unless the girl does something to become very unattractive and actively kill a man's attraction, a man never forgets the way she was in the beginning and how he felt about it then. It's only some epic bad behaviour and a destruction of trust that can actually cause a man to lose his attraction.

Men are polygamous, not hypergamous.

[–]sonder_one 23 points24 points  (0 children)

Exactly. Too many people of both genders assume that the opposite gender thinks like them.

[–]_Citizen_Erased_ 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Agreed. In my personal experience I have seen women fall out of love more easily than men.

[–]LateralThinker133 Stars 13 points14 points  (2 children)

As long as you still offer value to us, we still want sex with you. Sure you're older, but as long as you haven't become a whale, yes we will want sex with you. Wrinkles just add character.

Men don't trade up like women do. We aren't hypergamous. Men generally ditch women when they stop being a net benefit.

Let me give you competing examples.

Year 1, husband is a 7-point catch. Handsome, hung, good job, etc. Two years later, he's still a 7. Still a good catch, still provides, etc. But now a 9 is sniffing around her; handsome, and rich, hung AND connected socially, great job, etc. Many women will attempt to branch swing to the higher-status man (hypergamy) EVEN THOUGH there is nothing wrong with the current relationship.

Men are different.

Man marries a HB9. Age 25, 5'4" 120lbs, smoking hot, fit and slender, open, willing, friendly, submissive. Things are good initially. Then 5 years later, she goes one of two routes:

1) She bloats to 200lbs, killing her looks, because she "got her man already". She doesn't cook, sex dies off because she doesn't have to, and with her looks he doesn't want to. She isn't terribly supportive of him but loves that he still pays the bills. He MAY wise up and divorce her, but she'll take him for a ride if he does so. Neither is terribly happy here.

2) She stays relatively fit, maybe including popping out a kid. She supports him, learns to cook, is a good homemaker, and still an active partner (in all senses) with him. Sure she's a HB6 now (at best), but she contributes, cares for him, cares for his kids (VERY important), and makes him feel loved and wanted and appreciated. Given all that, even if a new HB9 hits on him he's unlikely to stray as he has a good thing going - he has no reason to risk it from his POV.

That's how men differ from women. Men need negative reasons to leave. Women need POSITIVE reasons to leave. Those positive reasons can and often do include: "Self-fulfillment", more money, better looks, better social connections, etc.

[–]_Citizen_Erased_ 12 points13 points  (0 children)

I personally address this problem within my own soul and make the absolute most honorable choices that I can. I fantasize about my partner instead of other women. I take joy in her body even if it’s sagging or wrinkled. Hell, I dated a 45 year old when I was 29 and we had great sex all the time. I get oneitis pretty bad though, and that’s been a turn off for most.

[–]WhatIsThisAccountFor3 Star 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Men will extremely rarely just leave a woman when the relationship doesn’t change. Women often leave men if the relationship doesn’t change.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 125 points126 points  (25 children)

It is just sad to me, that as a modern female, we are seen as a burden

What you need to recognize is the truth in this statement. Yes, absolutely, you are a burden! Maybe not you specifically, but taking on a woman is to take on a huge responsibility.

A woman is allowed to nag, criticize, yell, make demands, threaten, cajole, coerce and even physically hurt her man. In most cases, she'll get societal and governmental support. He's the one who will be arrested, he will lose in the "equal" division of assets, he will have to pay her alimony, he will have to pay Her child support while she will get away with most things with hardly a slap on the risk.

Furthermore, she can always embarrass him in public just for giggles, she can cheat on him and she could post a false metoo about him and ruin his life at any moment. Even in the rare occasion that she'll go to jail, it won't be anywhere near the punishment he'd get for the same crime.

So yes, women today are a dangerous proposition for men. Maybe you personally won't ever do any of these things but if you wanted to, society and the law are on your side.

MGTOW wasn't created in a bubble. If you want a man in today's climate, you need to be fully aware of what you're actually asking of him and act accordingly.

[–]Pie_021 44 points45 points  (17 children)

I don't want to disclose too much about myself but the following statement really resonates with me:

Yes, absolutely, you are a burden! Maybe not you specifically, but taking on a woman is to take on a huge responsibility.

I'm very familiar with Pakistani/Indian culture where this is also a huge issue. Women are having a hard time finding a guy to marry. On one had they are super picky, most want someone around their age but also making a senior level salary. Their parents also want the guy to be well off so they always like guys who are Doctors, Engineers, IT, Lawyers. The if he wants to get married those guys need to save up for the wedding process.

First he's obliviously going to need to cough up for a ring. No girl wants a small flimsy ring so he's going to spend at least 5k or more. Then he has to give her a dowry which can range from a few thousand to 25k or even more. To make it worse if you "cheap" out people in the family will embarrass and talk shit about you. Many times people like to do events before the actual wedding, so if they want to rent a hall, catering, etc, then he might have to cough up for those events too. Then comes the wedding, usually the guy doesn't get help in paying for his wedding, that expense is all on him. Many weddings can run up past 20k no problem. During the wedding they have traditions to milk the guy for more money in the name of "fun". When he is walking in the sisters of the groom stop him and demand money or they won't let him go. Then when he's with the bride on stage the sisters in law steal his shoes demanding money for them back. Then when he is going to the bride after the wedding the guy friends block him and demand money again.

After that is all done, he still needs to pay for the honeymoon and of course it better be nice or his wife will shit on him for it. So there goes another 3-4k probably.

After all that is done, many girls want to come into a relationship where they get to enjoy the fruits of all the hard work her husband did before they got married. Not many girls want to be with a guy to build something. They want him to be established already. On top of that after shelling out possibly 50k for a wedding they are still on the hook for food, water, clothes, rent, internet, phone, insurance, car payments, going out, vacations, fun, presents, etc. etc.

Sounds like a great time doesn't it? I totally don't feel used.

[–]Ezaar 20 points21 points  (1 child)

Holy shit.

That’s madness.

[–]Pie_021 17 points18 points  (0 children)

You have no idea the shit that is going on in Pakistani, Indian, Bangladeshi culture.

Getting married in those cultures is a nightmare and the problem is getting bad. In those cultures sex before marriage is a big no no but they way things are getting younger kids don't give shit. You can't turn off hormones, but you can turn off stupid ass backwards traditions. When you make things harder then they need to be you are going to lose control.

I have seen people only want their daughter to marry of only one certain town or family name. Some demand to see medical exam board scores and if they are not sufficient enough, take a walk. Some people only want guys in certain careers, i.e Engineering, Medical, Lawyer basically, and if you aren't in those fields? Haha loser, good luck getting married. It's vicious.

[–]Pixie03103 Stars 23 points24 points  (2 children)

My fiance is Indian. I am white. He went through all the above in his first marriage; on top of it, she never worked or contributed, was not an attentive mother, and was emotionally unsupportive and very negative. Though their divorce was fairly amicable, it's expected and not debated that he'll continue to support her financially, and always see that she has somewhere to live. It's a mess.

I think he's relieved that I am self-employed, contribute financially, and that we are eloping. He's taking a lot of grief for going "outside" the culture, but when the expectations are so unreasonable, sometimes you have no choice.

[–]Pie_021 19 points20 points  (1 child)

A lot of Desi guys are just done with it. Now Pakistani/Indian girls are complaining that guys rather have a girlfriend then get married. No shit, way less liability, financial stress, traditional bullshit. Good luck getting married unless you have something to offer. Now I hear about how women desperate in their 30s even asking guys in their 20s for marriage. Now many guys are going after girls of different cultures or race.

This very common and finding a sensible girl is hard now. Feminism has wrecked havoc across the sea too.

[–]pisellipod[S] 15 points16 points  (1 child)

Not many girls want to be with a guy to build something.

I had a serious relationship with a man that was "building something." They were struggling financially and just starting out in their careers. I was understanding and I put my faith and belief in him. Then he slapped me in the face with criticism and all my flaws, and I felt so insulted because I STAYED WITH HIM WHEN HE WAS UNEMPLOYED and yet he has the nerve to criticize me saying I'm not good enough for him. I left that relationship.

I'm willing to build a life with a man who is still trying to establish himself but he cannot insult me to my face.

[–]dancingprancing 8 points9 points  (0 children)

for every one of you there's thousands that do the opposite

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        [–]star_angela[🍰] 8 points9 points  (2 children)

        It's hurts personally that a naive harmless family bonding traditional ceremony where sisters of brides steal shoes is given a monetary gold digging stamp!

        Also the wedding rings are exchanged by both sides. And who on earth told you that men have to pay dowry ?? It's the other way round in most of India (exception to this is Muslim community). Females foeticide are rampant in India because girls are killed in wombs because parents don't want to take up responsibility of the burden of the dowry when the girl will be of age!

        Why the hell are u RP men so bitter against women, so anti-marriage, the only narrative screaming loud on the TRP is how women are Hypergamos cunning gold driggers running behind you to ripe u off?? Most of us women wants to keep u happy and have a decent life with ya all!

        Edit - Female Foeticide part!

        [–]Pie_021 10 points11 points  (0 children)

        It's hurts personally that a naive harmless family bonding traditional ceremony where sisters of brides steal shoes is given a monetary gold digging stamp!

        I didn't give it a gold digging stamp, you did. Harmless? Sure, but I have seen a wedding end in divorce because the sisters in law insulted the groom on the wedding day because he "didn't give enough". He almost walked out on his own wedding and probably should have. I was there and witnessed it first hand.

        Also the wedding rings are exchanged by both sides. And who on earth told you that men have to pay dowry ?? It's the other way round in most of India (exception to this is Muslim community).

        Women's rings are astronomically more expensive not to mention diamonds are fixed by a monopoly. You are right this is only predominant in Muslim culture.

        Females foeticide are rampant in India because girls are killed in wombs because parents don't want to take up responsibility of the burden of the dowry when the girl will be of age!

        That's a separate issue, I'm illustrating what men face when it comes to getting married. I am not dismissing any hardships women face, it was never even a part of my comment.

        Why the hell are u RP men so bitter against women, so anti-marriage, the only narrative screaming loud on the TRP is how women are Hypergamos cunning gold driggers running behind you to ripe u off??

        Don't apply some generalization on me you whipped up. I'm not anti-marriage as long as it's with the right person. TRP is not for you, it's for men.

        Most of us women wants to keep u happy and have a decent life with ya all!

        Highly disagree. Men are getting slapped left and right with bullshit from the time they get up and go to work and come home. Men have higher suicide rates, we get less help socially, we have less support, way more likely to die on the job. In courts we get harsher sentences, people will white knight for women, blame men when the women is at fault, people will accuse a man of being perv/rapist/pedo for being around situations where women don't feel comfortable. Men have been assaulted for being with their own kids, at work they can be accused of work place harassment without evidence and be fired. Like wise they can get divorced rape, end up paying child support for a long time or go to jail. Women get regular validation and appreciation, they literally pat themselves on the back. Valentines day, birthdays, anniversary, weddings, mothers day, all geared towards women. There are social movements to help women but none to help men.

        And a bunch more stuff the list can go on.

        So yeah, men are super cautious and bit crusty. I didnt' say all women are bad, but when you have so many guns pointed at you, we move carefully and start resent our purpose in life which seems to be a sperm recepticle and atm.

        Edit: Forgot to mention the shoe stealing story.

        [–]haku125 17 points18 points  (1 child)

        Bless you /u/loneliness-inc, I'm new to this RP stuff and I haven't read a single thing of yours that wasn't eloquent and enlightening, and to top it off you're voicing views I didn't know I agreed with until I read them. Bless

        [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 6 points7 points  (0 children)

        Amen!

        You're welcome!

        [–]SKRedPill 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        There is another thing - Men need freedom, and men need women. Two contradictory needs :) - sort of like women's own Alpha / beta strategy.

        [–]EvigSoeger 2 points3 points  (2 children)

        It might appear that way, but the vast majority of men don't think of women as a burden, quite the contrary, which is exactly why men in the west are in a rough spot at the moment.

        We love women for their femininity, it's practically hardwired into our brains. The world as we know it wouldn't exist, had it not been for the inherent primal drive men have to go above and beyond in order to attract women. We love their beauty, cooking, cleaning, submissiveness and positive energy so much, that we have to be vigilant about keeping our desire in check to achieve success in the current SMP. If you want a great example, go through the comments made on any decently attractive, scantily clad Instagram girl's photos. Just one basic feminine trait (beauty) is enough to attract hordes of thirsty, lonely men, none of which will get anything from her in return.

        To the RP-aware men, women are a calculated risk. A woman who plays her part will never be a burden, but will be cherished by her man. The problem is that a LTR for a man is high risk and hard work with no guarantee of appropriate reward, while spinning plates is safer and at least guarantees that the nuts are taken care of.

        If a woman is serious about wanting to marry a man who is careful about marriage, she has to tip the scales in favour of that. Insisting on a prenup to protect him would make the decision less risky on his part. If he also wants to get married, he'll have a much easier time popping the question knowing that she respects him enough to get "I'm not gonna screw you over" in writing.

        [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 17 points18 points  (1 child)

        To the RP-aware men, women are a calculated risk. A woman who plays her part will never be a burden, but will be cherished by her man. The problem is that a LTR for a man is high risk and hard work with no guarantee of appropriate reward, while spinning plates is safer and at least guarantees that the nuts are taken care of.

        Twist yourself into a pretzel. Your hamster wheel is on overdrive. Listen to what you're actually saying in your attempt to argue with the term "burden" because that word triggers you.

        Men have to take on a ton of responsibility When getting married. Responsibility is a burden by definition. That's why the phrase - the burden of responsibility - exists. The fact that this burden can be lightened and the responsibility made enjoyable by good sex, food and admiration does not diminish the fact that responsibility is indeed a burden.

        [–]EvigSoeger 6 points7 points  (0 children)

        English isn't my first language, so it might be that I misunderstood what was meant. "Being/bearing a burden" translates directly, but has a very negative connotation in my native language.

        Caling it a burden of responsibility seems fitting - what the word burden means in the context of that phrase however, is very different from how it's normally used over here.

        Hope that makes sense, Cheers!

        [–]SKRedPill 28 points29 points  (19 children)

        As a woman you would hope that you show him what you could offer to his life

        Actually, the truth is that everyone says this because they have needs of their own. While I understand your frustration, there are a few things to keep in mind

        1) Trust is at an all time low - so it's now only a matter of when and not if. The stats don't lie. Today a man's got to be bomb proof and even plan for a reserve life right from the start. No trust, no commitment.

        2) Survival is too easy now. In the absence of external pressures, most people will just not have the need to consciously motivate themselves. Also single men have fewer needs -- except in the most ambitious men, the needs of many have always been the catalyst that kept civilization going .

        In fact in the west, you better be getting married only if you want kids of your own and you know the risks.

        3) Women did this to themselves... - technology made survival cheap, feminism and contraception made sex cheap, the state made commitment cheap. Net result is cheap relationships and a lot of mediocrity. Not a good combination. If this doesn't change, civilization will soon become cheap, then it won't be fun anymore.

        [–]tuyguy 17 points18 points  (0 children)

        Best comment in the thread. This guy gets it.

        My only criticism is that it's wrong to blame women for feminism. I believe they were lied to and led astray by powerful people with motives. You wouldn't blame a young man for being blue pilled.

        [–]glitterchild 11 points12 points  (17 children)

        This is a great comment. I agree sadly with all of these factors playing in. But that makes me sad. Sad for all the guys who have been screwed over primarily, the main factor that drove me to actively identify as anti feminism was hearing about all the men who kill themselves, primarily because of being so screwed over. I hate it. I’d outlaw no fault divorce and severely restrict alimony in a heartbeat. But it also makes me selfishly sad for myself and OP and women like us. Because women in general may have done this to themselves. But OP and I and other individual women didn’t. I didn’t choose to be born in the 90s and come of age in this generation where men can’t trust women and gender roles and gender identity have spiraled so far out of control. I’ve never divorce raped anyone. I’ve never cheated on anyone. Ive never identified as a feminist. I’ve made some severe mistakes in my romantic dealings with men, but mainly of the nagging and ungratefulness variety. Nothing on the caliber described here. So why should I suffer for what other women have done? Why do I have to be seen as a divorce statistic and some huge risk factor when I’ve never even been married? That sucks no matter which way you swing it. And I think that’s what the OP is getting at.

        [–]pisellipod[S] 7 points8 points  (5 children)

        Exactly. I was brought up in a very traditional household. My mother taught me to be a respectful woman that admires her husband, takes care of the household, takes care of him. But men don't want this anymore. We have to have a job, not just any job but an interesting career, we have to be interesting, always fun, we have to be everything, keep up with men, but still be traditionally feminine. I can't do all of this. I don't expect my man to be everything. I actually expect MYSELF to maintain most of the domestic tasks.

        I think in the end both men and women just have too high of expectations from each other. I've been trying to lower my standards the past few years. I don't even know what that means anymore.

        [–]LateralThinker133 Stars 13 points14 points  (3 children)

        My mother taught me to be a respectful woman that admires her husband, takes care of the household, takes care of him. But men don't want this anymore.

        Men who want LTRs do. Risk-averse men don't.

        We have to have a job, not just any job but an interesting career, we have to be interesting, always fun, we have to be everything, keep up with men, but still be traditionally feminine.

        If you're not in an LTR-headed-for-marriage-and-kids, you're just fun dating. So yeah, equality and having your own career is necessary there. You're not forming a partnership. You "have to do it all", JUST LIKE MEN DO. And that's hard.

        But you don't need the job if you find an LTR-minded man.

        I think in the end both men and women just have too high of expectations from each other.

        No. It's women's expectations. The only things that have changed over the last 50 years are that women have more and more power, but not the concurrent responsibilities that go with that power. This is changing, but much of the responsibility still lay with the men. This imbalance is why dating is so messed up right now.

        Historically, when a man wanted a wife, he was committing to supporting her, in sickness or in health. This was his responsibility. His benefit was to get a homemaker and mother to his children. Her benefit was to get a provider and protector, and her responsibility was to be a homemaker and mother.

        So with widespread birth control, a me-first, yougogirl culture, women's responsibilities have evaporated. You aren't "burdened" with having to marry and pop out kids in your 20s. You don't have to stay at home - you can work (and at this point, need to). All of the traditional burdens are gone.

        Problem is, they took with them the benefits of that system.

        Men did an AWFUL lot to get sex historically. Now, women practically give it away. That bargaining chip is so much weaker. But relationships? Those have gotten MUCH more expensive, in many cases prohibitively so. And that's because of how dangerous they are - to men. Financial slavery, incarceration due to false rape accusations - there are vast disincentives to men to marry.

        Men don't have high expectations with regards to marriage. They have the same expectations they've always had. Be pretty, be kind, cook well, be a happy mother to my kids, be supportive. Oh, and be sane and don't divorce-rape me.

        It's women's hypergamy and elevated status that has made it so hard for women to find mates. With women working, getting more and more degrees, and otherwise achieving like men, they're miserable (check the happiness index) AND pricing themselves out of the dating market (since women don't date downwards).

        Take a good long look at the dating market AS MEN SEE IT. Because I don't think you get the realities.

        [–][deleted]  (2 children)

        [deleted]

          [–]LateralThinker133 Stars 5 points6 points  (1 child)

          I think we're talking past one another. I keep referring to general trends (as in, overall U.S.), and you keep referring to personal experience (slightly smaller subgroup).

          We can't just be homemakers anymore. We have to be interesting and have a career, otherwise we're boring if we just take care of household tasks.

          Fallacy #1. Either-or thinking. A career doesn't make you interesting, and it's not homemaker-or-career. There are many variations in between. I'll get to this in a minute.

          We have to be able to have interesting conversations and bring something to the table BESIDES domesticity and femininity

          I partially agree. Domesticity, by itself, can be done with a smart robot. A robot can't do an interesting conversation (yet), but we can get that from anywhere. What we CAN'T get is femininity, applied to our advantage.

          Specifically, a woman using her femininity for us, to benefit us. The admiration, love, affection, support, and encouragement, all of that isn't the same coming from friends and family. But from a sexually-available and interested partner? Yeah...

          he claims he can cook and clean his apartment and provide for himself. He asked - what else can you offer besides "listening to music and Netflix?"

          Well no shit. That's passive. There's a reason why dinner and a movie is a TERRIBLE first date idea. Netflix and chill requires zero effort, and the man knows it. He can turn on Netflix himself. What he wants is what he can't get from his bros.

          I personally have been trying to accept this - "lowering" my standards and knowing that just because I'm smart and have an interesting career doesn't necessarily mean I'm a good wife.

          You're going broken-record on the "lowering standards" phrase, and it's not helping. Your intelligence and career have NOTHING to do with being a good wife. Downplay them, upplay them, they don't MATTER. A great potential partner isn't going to select you from amongst the dating pool because of these.

          He's going to select you because you make him feel loved, appreciated, and valued. It's about what you do to/for/with him.

          I think you're projecting when you keep focusing on "interesting". Men are MUCH less concerned with intelligence in their partners, for example. They'd much rather have an average-IQ girl who cares about their happiness and well-being than an intelligent woman who doesn't.

          In one relationship I showed my domesticity and ability to run a household but he actually got angry at me - he wanted me to contribute something besides the home, and I have plenty of interests/hobbies, but he didn't like my preferences. Maybe it was him,

          Okay, you met an asshole. They happen.

          Look, I don't know where you live or what your social circle is, but I'm getting the impression that you don't have a great dating pool. I'm also getting the feeling that you don't vet nearly as well as you think you do, AND that you're vetting for the wrong things. I'd suggest you take a break from dating, work on yourself, become happy in who and what you are (you come across as combative/bitter), and then after squaring away your issues, return to dating with a smile and a can-do, optimistic attitude.

          That'll score you big time. But going into the dating world with "I need to keep lowering my standards" and "I'm amazing, why can't men see that" on your sleeves is doomed to fail.

          [–]ThePlague 5 points6 points  (10 children)

          We're all born into a world we didn't make. While it may be sad, it is what it is. At this point, I don't think anything can be done about it, certainly not for another generation at minimum. If marriage is important to you, your only choice is a man who is still blue pilled. Judging by the OP, there are fewer and fewer of those around, but I'm sure they're not extinct yet.

          [–]glitterchild 1 point2 points  (9 children)

          You are very right. On all counts. But more and more men are waking up, and I don’t blame them although that hurts me by extension. But I don’t think I could respect a blue pilled guy. Perhaps I’ll have to find a purple pilled one although that’s probably even harder.

          [–]ThePlague 2 points3 points  (8 children)

          Well, it's your choice, obviously, but I'm not sure I could respect someone who knows better but chooses incorrectly anyway.

          [–]glitterchild 0 points1 point  (7 children)

          Agreed. And if I agreed that marriage was the incorrect choice I would agree with you. But since I don’t, it isn’t a problem for me. I genuinely don’t believe marriage is a bad choice for man. Risky? Absolutely. Bad? Not necessarily. Like all of us I’ve seen marriages gone wrong ruin men’s lives, but I’ve also seen marriage done right be the best thing that ever happened to both men and women. My own parents are an example. 25 years and counting. My grandparents are at almost 70 years. My aunt and uncle are at 35 years and were high school sweethearts who only dated each other. So I truly don’t believe it has to be a raw deal for guys. But I do think they need to be smart. I don’t mind a guy vetting me relentlessly to decide I’m worth marrying.

          [–]ThePlague 2 points3 points  (6 children)

          "Not necessarily" Sure, there might be a few examples from past generations. Assuming the men aren't just staying in it because it's what they're "supposed to do". In today's climate? Not so much.

          That's the same sort of reasoning that says playing the lottery is a good thing. Just look at the winners! Glossing over the millions who are out a couple bucks or more.

          Of course, marriage is far more serious, with potentially extreme dire consequences. Why any man would voluntarily submit to such a proposition is bewildering in this day and age. It really is a bad choice, little upside and tremendous downside. Or in other words, a very poor investment decision.

          [–]glitterchild 1 point2 points  (5 children)

          Well the only reason I used examples from the previous generation is because the people in my generation haven’t been married long enough yet for me to safely say that they probably won’t divorce, but I know plenty of people in their 20s and 30s who have marriages that are great so far. Maybe my experience varies a bit because of my religion and the fact that most people I know are the same religion, and marriage is taken very seriously. Edit: typo

          [–]ThePlague 4 points5 points  (4 children)

          Ah, a religious subculture. It's possible that may work, but the problem still remains that the legal infrastructure is still grossly weighted against men. If your particular subculture is in the states, then it's still a choice of very dubious merit for males.

          Of course, it's not of universal, or even wide-spread applicability in any case.

          [–]glitterchild 0 points1 point  (3 children)

          Yeah, I am in the states (the hyper liberal West Coast no less) so sadly this is very true, and so I don’t deny it’s still very risky for a man. But I think a little less so, because divorce is only acceptable in extreme circumstances. So vetting properly for a woman who is committed to the religion would, I think, (and for my sake I hope) make him feel a bit safer.

          [–]r2401 10 points11 points  (5 children)

          There are plenty of trad cons and blue pill men out there though.

          I don't think it should be too hard to find one, they aren't all red pill men.

          [–]chim_city 15 points16 points  (0 children)

          those men are simply invisible to women

          [–]JJ33141 Star 4 points5 points  (1 child)

          That's true. I imagine the situation is getting worse re: marriage prospects for women, but it's not like a majority of men have read the writing on the wall, even in 2018.

          [–]r2401 3 points4 points  (0 children)

          Yeah I do agree that due to the many things cited in redpill forums and mgtow and such, marriage is becoming less and less appealing for men.

          However these are just percentages moving in a direction. I think people are overstating the ultimate fate of relationships between men and women. If you are motivated you can always find what you are looking for it will just be harder.

          [–]sonder_one 12 points13 points  (0 children)

          You've just written a post that summarizes the TRP understanding of the world. Feminism has made marriage obsolete, willfully and eagerly, and declared it to be a victory for women.

          For men, the entire TRP experience consists of learning how much this sucks and how to accept it. Did you think women wouldn't have any pain to share?

          [–]Pixie03103 Stars 18 points19 points  (1 child)

          It sounds to me like you are looking at just the wrong kind of guy in general.

          There are men out there who are financially stable (but maybe not wealthy), good leaders with "alpha" traits, raised with traditional values, who - deep down - are willing to marry the right woman.

          A few important things, I think, are to make sure the men you are considering know about your values. If marriage or kids are something you ultimately want, don't hide it. If they run off totally horrified, they aren't the right type of man for you.

          Personal example: when I met my SO, he had a stable job - but wasn't in a great situation. He was a bit of a womaniser, but had been raised with traditional values and respect for the family unit. He definitely wasn't out looking for marriage, but he saw something in me he wanted to hang on to. I made it clear to him within weeks the type of values I had - that I believed in marriage, long-term commitment, etc.

          Honestly, getting married isn't something he feels is totally necessary. It probably even freaks him out a little! But he knows it matters to me, and that I want a family. And he wants to be with me and make me happy, so we're getting married.

          In the end, it's simple. The right man will commit, to the right woman. Focus on being the right woman, with clear-cut values, and only consider men who know what they are - respect them - and still stick around. Be true to your values, and the right guy - if he wants to keep you - will learn to trust you and honour your needs.

          [–]pisellipod[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

          Thank you for the positive thoughts.

          [–]ThePlague 8 points9 points  (1 child)

          It's pretty simple, really: no man has ever gotten married thinking "She will divorce rape me at some point". No, it's all sunshine and moonbeams. However, and here's what has changed: men have learned that they can be wrong and, by divorce statistics, it's basically a coin toss. Unless the man is a complete egoist, who thinks he can't be wrong, only a fool would take that chance.

          And sure, NAWALT. The thing is, you don't find out if she's a NAWALT until the shit hits the fan. Then the fangs, lawyers, and essentially the whole weight of the legal system are brought to bear. Again, why bother for very little gain? It's basic risk/reward assessment.

          [–]pisellipod[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          I understand. I think the men I've met have had a few buddies who went through divorce rape, even if it didn't happen to them personally.

          [–][deleted] 20 points21 points  (13 children)

          Men nowadays are perfectly fine even having their own apartment, living single..

          I'm skeptical of this. I definitely could see this happening more if you have common law marriage where you live, where cohabitation essentially causes legal marriage. But apart from that, I think that most men, as impossible as it is in present day, and even if they don't want to be legally married, would be happiest if they could live with a woman who is mostly pleasant and respectful. When I use "respectful" I want to add that I'm not talking about respect that is fear-based, or "respect" as some demeaning demand a man has for a woman he is in a relationship with, but respect as what all men secretly crave from everyone and interpret as love, and is a woman's love-based choice, which also doesn't prevent her from stating and asking for respect for her own needs and boundaries. Things have gotten so toxic and comedically invulnerable, that to make men comfortable with living with you, you really need to be mentally different from all the women around you.

          [–]UmbrellalikeWetness 14 points15 points  (3 children)

          I think that most men, as impossible as it is in present day, and even if they don't want to be legally married, would be happiest if they could live with a woman who is mostly pleasant and respectful.

          Yes, but you've sort of answered it in that statement: Yep, most men would like to live with an attractive, pleasant, respectful woman. BUT the current legal structure makes this very financially risky, and the current sociological environment makes this person difficult to find.

          So you can be right about the nature of men in what they want but be wrong about what they're choosing to do because of the environment they're in.

          It's like "men would like to walk around in the sun with no shirt on". Sure, let's say that's true. Only the men we're discussing are in Antarctica. So because their environment has changed, they are making choices that run counter to their natural default choice.

          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

          I think your post mirrors what I said here if I'm not mistaken:

          as impossible as it is in present day

          [–]UmbrellalikeWetness 5 points6 points  (1 child)

          Exactly, yes, we agree. So, why are you still skeptical?

          [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

          Because I believe that evidence can eventually point to a science around romantic love, even though I will admit to having more theories than studies and facts, and that a person who ends up conforming to that science will trump environmental fear. Knowledge makes human anomalies possible, including happy couples surrounded by ones who aren't, and these couples obviously exist now but they don't know all of the factors that created their happiness.

          I'm holding onto a positive view of what the future can be, rather than the negativity in the present, and keeping my mind focused on that. For example, the dating environment was different in different centuries than it is today. With more optimism and more understanding, men and women can improve the dating environment.

          [–]ragnarockette4 Stars 4 points5 points  (0 children)

          I agree. I think men are much more aware of the risks of marriage, but the vast majority of high value men I know (20’s and 30’s) are wither happily married, heading towards marriage, or actively seeking a good relationship. Many of my friends have gotten married in the past 5 years and not one of them has discussed a pre-nup. So while this sentiment may be common online, in real life loads of people are getting married and are pumped about it.

          [–]pisellipod[S] 3 points4 points  (7 children)

          Is it REALLY though? I just ask this because I know so many men in their 30's who would rather live by themselves and "go out with the boys for dinner" instead of coming home to a boring wife. Doesn't matter if she's respectful and doesn't nag and puts dinner on the table. If she's not up to having fun or doesn't make the food he wants (we should all try to be good cooks but nobody is perfect), he'd rather go out and choose exactly what he wants to eat.

          [–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (3 children)

          To clarify I'm talking about lifetime monogamy, but not marriage, as being desirable to men if it was with the right woman. And say there are men who don't want a woman to regularly cook for them, that's not a threat to monogamy. But the idea that most men wouldn't want to spend most nights with an SO suggests to me rational fear of women, and a lack of single women with traits they find desirable. I think that if she was desirable enough, he would want to spend most nights with her; and from a positive standpoint, a lot of this lack of desire men have towards women is based on things women can change.

          A woman not being up to having fun seems fishy to me, it sounds more like a dynamic of a female introvert dating a male extrovert and not wanting to be drained by going out in public, or a woman dating a guy who is about constantly partying, or a woman who is constantly exhausted from work and doesn't want to go out. But I'm not sure I get exactly where you are coming from with that. I think these men you know have rational fear of women to some extent, and they also suppress the awareness of it to be more happy, but nobody actually wants to have more fear in their life. I think they aren't showing you the whole truth because no human being wants to show vulnerability unless they see sufficient incentive in doing so, and even then, it can be terrifying.

          I think that between communication/brain differences in men and women, non-secure attachment styles from trauma, and feminism and hook-up culture pushing the idea of playing social games and not showing vulnerability, there is so much inability to communicate effectively between men and women that fear is stronger in dating and romantic relationships than what it was in the past. And what makes it even more powerful is that it is a collective or socially shared fear-- sometimes it manifests as staying single, sometimes it manifests as hooking up, these are just different levels of the same invulnerability and fear of shame. Big problems are big opportunities though, and this is no different, its creating the necessity to theorize and eventually build scientific understanding around romantic love.

          [–]pisellipod[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

          A woman not being up to having fun seems fishy to me

          It's more like if she's not in a good mood to have fun. I've seen it happen. Girl isn't in a good mood, man wants to go out, so he goes out with a group of men and women. He can have fun with other girls (as friends) without her.

          [–]Rivkariver2 Star 0 points1 point  (1 child)

          Where do you meet them?

          [–]pisellipod[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Sometimes dating apps, sometimes at the gym or even in grocery stores. Outings with groups of friends.

          [–]LateralThinker133 Stars 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Doesn't matter if she's respectful and doesn't nag and puts dinner on the table.

          This line is describing a robot. If all she offers is what a robot can do, he'll value her like one. There's a lot more to a relationship than this.

          [–]Rivkariver2 Star 5 points6 points  (8 children)

          1. You sound like you have your life together, if your self description is accurate. You may even come off as too perfect. Personally I admire but don’t end up close friends with people who are excelling at everything—perfect job, friends, in shape, runs marathons, crazy smart, perfect social media life, etc. If that is so for you then you need to be feminine by being vulnerable so people see your humanity.

          2. If you’re dating men near 40 who have never married, the odds that he will ever marry decrease dramatically. You have better odds with a divorcé, men who married once are often open to it again at a later age.

          3. My being religious helps since I never had to logically explain to a guy why I only date to discern marriage. It probably helps that my faith doesn’t believe in divorce. Even if you aren’t religious, look for traditional men who are kind of RP but without the cynicism.

          Edit: you talk about all you have to offer, which is good but remember that men devote themselves to women who need them.

          I suggest you reevaluate your view that women have no power. We have massive power over men, it’s in being feminine, which by the way doesn’t mean girly or childlike. Feminism has lied to us to give away our power, but you can learn to wield it in a way that a man wants you to. That’s what RPW is about.

          Yes marriage is a huge responsibility for men, but generally functional adult men usually desire some modicum of responsibility, it’s a big part of the masculine journey and rites of passage.

          [–]glitterchild 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          Thank you!! I wish I knew how to give gold stars. This is the best comment I’ve seen on this thread. :) I’ve been sitting here trying to phrase a response and you said it perfectly.

          [–]pisellipod[S] 1 point2 points  (6 children)

          Thank you, I like this comment.

          Edit: you talk about all you have to offer, which is good but remember that men devote themselves to women who need them.

          There is something about me (that I didn't mention) that "needs" a man. I get very emotional and clingy, and I tend to cling to my boyfriends (not all the time but simply occasionally). I get struggle with depression and anxiety and slight social anxiety and I feel it is a strong hindrance when I'm dating. So I do need an emotionally strong man.

          1. You sound like you have your life together, if your self description is accurate. You may even come off as too perfect. Personally I admire but don’t end up close friends with people who are excelling at everything—perfect job, friends, in shape, runs marathons, crazy smart, perfect social media life, etc. If that is so for you then you need to be feminine by being vulnerable so people see your humanity.

          Yes, I see what you're saying. I definitely don't run marathons, haha! And don't use social media. But I have dated men who feel that they can't give me the life I'm used to - that could be an issue - I have worked on being vulnerable but for me it means showing my negative emotions - sadness, anxiety, fear of failure.

          I also am aware I come off as "too perfect" (I get a lot of "put together" "respectful" "hardworking" "sweet" compliments from men and women) and I have tried to lower my expectations because of this. I don't expect an expensive wedding or a mansion. I expect myself to keep working so that I'm not a financial burden. I have always taken care of domestic tasks with no questions asked.

          1. If you’re dating men near 40 who have never married, the odds that he will ever marry decrease dramatically. You have better odds with a divorcé, men who married once are often open to it again at a later age.

          I can try divorced men. Some already have children though, and don't want more, and I'd like my own child eventually.

          [–]LateralThinker133 Stars 3 points4 points  (5 children)

          There is something about me (that I didn't mention) that "needs" a man. I get very emotional and clingy, and I tend to cling to my boyfriends (not all the time but simply occasionally). I get struggle with depression and anxiety and slight social anxiety and I feel it is a strong hindrance when I'm dating. So I do need an emotionally strong man.

          AAAAAANNNNNNNDDDDD there's the other shoe dropping, a hundred comments deep. This is what you should have led with. The problems ALWAYS start with you, not the men you are dating. Your issues have nothing to do with your standards or lowering them with regards to the men you are dating.

          It's all about your issues.

          1) Emotional and clingy? Kryptonite to alpha men. Betas will like that, but you're not a low-status woman. You need a leader. The men who will coddle this unhealthy behavior will also repulse you.

          2) Depression and anxiety

          Which means self-image, interaction with others, activity level and generally how fun you are to be around. All impacted. Not having these well-dealt-with will murder your chances at a good, strong leader. Because while a man is fine with a submissive first officer, he doesn't want an invalid or a headcase.

          Sure, a man will be supportive if his mate develops issues over time, but few men want to enter into a relationship with a woman with clinginess and anxiety/depression, even if it's sporadic. It's too much of a PITA, too high maintenance.

          Get these issues dealt with and put to bed (you can afford good therapy) and you'll find your dating issues taken care of.

          [–][deleted]  (4 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]LateralThinker133 Stars 1 point2 points  (3 children)

            If anything I can be too full of myself, too egotistical...too fun.

            Full of yourself and egotistical isn't fun for the man subjected to it.

            I'm actually over-confident (usually, not always). I have a very big ego.

            You sound here like you're describing a man. The traits above are masculine. Again, I have to recommend you get your head shrunk (professionally) so you can deal with whatever issues have driven you to act in ways that aren't feminine... at all. Or productive.

            [–][deleted]  (2 children)

            [deleted]

              [–]Trpthrowaway90000 40 points41 points  (55 children)

              You're dating men with higher SMV than you. Men fuck and casually date down, but dont commit down.

              Lower your standards slightly and you'll have a husband in no time. But you probably cant because you're used to the best looking, smartest, mist charming, and richest men.

              Welcome to modern dating.

              [–]pisellipod[S] 8 points9 points  (21 children)

              Also, all of my LTRs have made significantly less than me and I have a large network in my industry. I would wager to say that I may be considered "higher" than them (if in terms of salary). I feel that I have lowered my standards a lot. I had serious relationships with financially unstable men. I feel that I am not asking for a rich husband at all.

              [–]digbybare 22 points23 points  (5 children)

              I would wager to say that I may be considered "higher" than them (if in terms of salary).

              This is the issue. You think men are judging you based on your salary. They're not.

              [–]pisellipod[S] 5 points6 points  (4 children)

              I understand they're not judging me by income. The topic conversation is me vetting the men (the other way around) and to me, I'm aiming "low" because I deliberately chose to date a man with a lower income. It's just a different topic. I agree that a woman's income is insignificant to a man but to a WOMAN it is a factor.

              [–]digbybare 9 points10 points  (3 children)

              But you're comparing their income to your income. Again, your post says:

              I would wager to say that I may be considered "higher" than them (if in terms of salary)

              So you're saying you're aiming for men who are below you because you make more than they do. But their salary is a big factor in their SMV, whereas your salary is a very minor factor in yours. So in actuality, although you may make more money than they do, they may still be significantly above you in SMV.

              [–]pisellipod[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

              Yes, understood completely. I am aware of this and thus I don't place a high expectation on salary - simply stable and responsible - because I know there are plenty of other qualities that are high in SMV/RMV. I'm just trying to prove I'm not a gold digger because women are always accused of wanting a rich husband. I don't have that expectation for myself.

              [–]LateralThinker133 Stars 0 points1 point  (1 child)

              I'm just trying to prove I'm not a gold digger because women are always accused of wanting a rich husband.

              Dating someone because you have an agenda, and not because they're the best fit you could find, is always a recipe for failure. I could twist this and give the example of, "I only date black girls because I want to show the world I'm not racist!"

              See how loaded with fail that is? This is the same thing; you're just trying to prove you're not financially prejudiced. And so you're dating subpar men.

              News flash: if you make a lot, then you are setting yourself up to fail because you NEED to be dating high-income men. It's where you will find the men who are higher value than your value. You likely won't be happy with less. Not for the money, but for the skills, attitude, ambition, and competence that is associated with the high income.

              You're just looking at it all wrong. Don't seek the men for their income (like trailer trash girls do). Seek the men for their income as an indicator of the man's inherent worth and ability. Then you'll be dating in your quality bracket, and you'll find success.

              EDIT: After all, WTF would a female CEO date mail clerks? Just to prove she's not money-minded? Newsflash: the men at her level are other CEOs. She dates them not for the money (she has that) but because anything else IS dating down and doomed to failure.

              [–]pisellipod[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Yeah I agree. I mean my first and foremost requirement is that we get along emotionally and intellectually at the same level. Usually when that happens, incomes/lifestyle are similar anyway.

              You likely won't be happy with less. Not for the money, but for the skills, attitude, ambition, and competence that is associated with the high income.

              Yes exactly. Again biggest requirement is to get along.

              [–]Trpthrowaway90000 13 points14 points  (5 children)

              Wealth is only 1 quality.

              [–]pisellipod[S] 9 points10 points  (4 children)

              Of course and agreed. But RP always accuses women for being gold diggers so I'm simply trying to prove that I'm not one because I date men who make below my salary.

              [–]tuyguy 6 points7 points  (0 children)

              Also men aren't really looking for a wealthy woman. Financial wealth of a female won't be listed in any man's top 5 desired qualities. Women generally want a successful man but the inverse doesn't generally apply.

              However, it is relevant if he's poor because that means he's weak in a quality you desire. So you can afford to be weak in a quality he desires.

              [–]LateralThinker133 Stars 0 points1 point  (1 child)

              But RP always accuses women for being gold diggers so I'm simply trying to prove that I'm not one because I date men who make below my salary.

              Wealth isn't necessary for a relationship. But it's often an indicator of capability, drive, and ambition IN MEN. Why are the men you are dating less than you in these areas?

              Alternatively, are you just that competent and capable of a woman? Because if you are in the 1%, you will have a VERY hard time finding a date because you've improved yourself right out of the dating market and women have a hard time dating down.

              [–]pisellipod[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Alternatively, are you just that competent and capable of a woman?

              No I'm not, absolutely not!! That's why I'm scratching my head trying to figure out who's a good match for me. I know I'm smart and capable but I'm no supermodel, I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a business owner. I'm well-read, well-rounded and decently attractive young woman, but by no means am I excelling in any way.

              That's why I DON'T look at money. I look at their personality and character first and foremost. A basic financial stability is needed.

              [–]sonder_one 14 points15 points  (2 children)

              You're clearly too influenced by feminism if you think that your relative incomes are relevant.

              A woman's income is meaningless to a man.

              [–]pisellipod[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

              I understand they're not judging me by income. The topic conversation is me vetting the men (the other way around) and to me, I'm aiming "low" because I deliberately chose to date a man with a lower income. It's just a different topic. I agree that a woman's income is insignificant to a man and not "attractive" but to a WOMAN it is a factor.

              [–]r2401 4 points5 points  (0 children)

              It's not totally irrelevant. More money is always a nice thing.

              [–]scallopkidEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (5 children)

              What other things are you looking for in a guy? Financial instability would probably be a deal breaker for me. Maybe you just have bad luck, but since you've dated a lot I wonder if there's something you're selecting for that you could change to find more commitment minded guys.

              [–]pisellipod[S] 2 points3 points  (4 children)

              Financial stability, traditional family structure with eventual children, healthy lifestyle (no cigarettes, no excessive alcohol, has fitness in their life), someone I can talk with and enjoy my time with. That's really it..

              [–]scallopkidEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (3 children)

              Hmm :/ Do you notice any common patterns with the guys you date? (I edited my previous comment to be more clear) are you in a big city? What kinds of activities are your social circle into?

              [–]pisellipod[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

              I think they all had some sort of troubled past. Two of my ex boyfriends got expelled from school (although they picked themselves back up again and have jobs now). One was fired from his corporate job and he resigned from his second corporate job. Another had a incident with a previous company regarding a loan (difficult to explain). My most recent one probably is the most stable out of all of them - he was employed right after college to a good company, now he's in the Air Force and is doing really well, owns a side business - although he had a troubled and rebellious childhood (some of his friends from middle/high school went to jail). But he's clean now. He's the one that told me I was such a wonderful woman and wife material but never called me back after two months of dating. :(

              So yes, I would wager to say I tend to date men who had some sort of delinquency. You could suggest that I date men who don't have this kind of history, but the fact is the "clean" men don't ask me out. It's always the troubled ones who are interested in me. Whether or not that says something about me, I don't know.

              [–]scallopkidEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (1 child)

              Maybe you're just getting asked out in the wrong places? How have you met them? I dunno :(

              [–]pisellipod[S] 2 points3 points  (32 children)

              Lower your standards slightly and you'll have a husband in no time. But you probably cant because you're used to the best looking, smartest, mist charming, and richest men.

              This is absolutely not true. The highest salary I dated was 70k, I've never dated anyone over six figures and I DON'T expect to date or marry a man who makes that much money. They're all handsome, smart and charming but have some sort of "issue" with them - whether it's a broken heart, a divorce, unstable finances, ex-girlfriend cheated. Perhaps they're the ones broken, I don't know. But to me I personally don't think I'm dating that high - I have girlfriends who have boyfriends/husbands with much better statuses so I can compare.

              [–]BooksAndCatsAnd 2 points3 points  (5 children)

              In this case, the opposite likely applies - start dating people who are a slight reach for you (stable, good career, attractive) etc.

              [–]Trpthrowaway90000 2 points3 points  (4 children)

              Why would more eligible men be more likely to commit?

              [–]BooksAndCatsAnd 12 points13 points  (3 children)

              Because in this case she’s been lowering her standards by choosing less stable men. For example, a man at 70k salary who blows it on drinks/travel and has plenty of baggage is irresponsible and immature. A man at a 120k salary who lives frugally because he’s saving/investing for the future is more stable/mature. Essentially there’s a base level of being “established” in order to have the maturity to even want commitment. If she’s not dating in that milieu she’ll only find boys, never men.

              [–]Rivkariver2 Star 8 points9 points  (0 children)

              Honestly, if she feels she lowered her standards and resents him for it, that would affect things negatively between them. So you’re not wrong.

              [–]Trpthrowaway90000 2 points3 points  (1 child)

              I disagree. All else being equal, a more eligible man will always be less likely to commit, or require a higher SMV woman to commit.

              [–]BooksAndCatsAnd 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Agree to disagree then :) I do concede that in today’s environment it may be that if you do not have high enough SMV there may not be men in your pool who are willing/able to commit.

              [–]Trpthrowaway90000 3 points4 points  (25 children)

              I think you're incorrect. Any man will commit for the right woman. No matter where your standards are now, if you lower then slightly, you'll find a husband.

              Not that you have to of course, you do you. But if every man you date doesn't commit, what's the common factor? You.

              [–]pisellipod[S] 2 points3 points  (24 children)

              Eh, there are stories to why men didn't want to commit. Some of it is me, for sure. But I do realize I might need to lower my standards even more - to marry a man who has no stable income and potentially can't provide for children. So I guess if I can secure marriage but potentially never have children because we can't afford it, I guess that's the standard I can get.

              [–]Trpthrowaway90000 13 points14 points  (22 children)

              You seem overly focused on money in your mate. All i know of you is these reddit posts but maybe that money focus comes through to your boyfriends too. Money hungry women are a huge turn off

              [–]Rivkariver2 Star 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              Maybe not lower them, but reevaluate which ones are essential and which might be excessively picky.

              [–]lister777 15 points16 points  (2 children)

              Hi, I am going to answer you honestly, as any person with some values should - instead of downvoting honesty. Your situation is the one of many women, and I am very sorry for this. You lived a lie all your life, and your feelings are a mere wake up call to reality. The current system is toxic for women as it makes them behave like sluts, then looking for a "good man", which of course are disgusted. There is no solution to your case but to pray god for his pity. I am no one to judge you, nor other women who rode the cock carousel. Only god will do that and reward you in this life or the other. Whatever you believe or not in the end doesn't change the extremely grave condition sexual liberation and feminism created. Of course not all the responsibility falls on women, as most men behave like women - or worse. You see, men left women for a survival reason, and they ain't happy nor in peace with that. The single tool men have to solve is destruction. The question is therefore simple: you women, are you ready to support these good frustrated men into a war that will split the blood of those who support the same rights that create your hell?

              [–]tuyguy 7 points8 points  (1 child)

              It's not women's fault that feminism happened. Only a minority of vocal (ugly, unattractive) women pushed it into legislation. And then the corporate establishment and media jumped on their side because feminism sells (people instinctually want to protect women) . Now it's doctrine.

              You wouldn't blame a young man for being blue pilled would you? He was lied to, just as women have been lied to. Unfortunately for women by the time most of them realise, they are in their late 20s and far from peak SMV.

              [–]lister777 8 points9 points  (0 children)

              Yes they are. I don't blame anyone, nor judge. But life has real consequences, regardless of our own views on our experience. No-one wanna buy a rotten fish, sad reality. I am very sorry for these lies. But RP is achieved not when the walls hurts, but when there is a conscious process of understanding what was done wrong, why, and how to correct it. It means changing oneself.

              [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (2 children)

              I wrote on this subreddit a week ago about similar things. I actually just went on a date with a guy that told me “You’re great, you’re everything anyone would want” and then proceeded with the “I’m not looking for a relationship and I want to date an older woman” we had a 7 year age gap. I’ve decided to let it go for now, all of my past relationships and dating partners always say “you would be the one if I wasn’t so stupid”. I’ve decided to let it go, to delete my online apps, to just be with myself for awhile. It’s not worth stressing over when you’re a good women and if a man can’t see my worth it’s not on me, it’s on them.

              [–]pisellipod[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

              Thank you for sharing your experience. Can I ask how old you are (if the men wanted to date an older woman)?

              [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              I’m 24, they said I was too young and I usually date around 30-31. I understand their hesitation, to an extent. Because I’ve met older women and men who are in their late 20s but still act like children. I think maturity has nothing to do with age. Anyways, I recommend to meet someone through good friends, I deleted my social dating apps and don’t plan to get on them for awhile - take a break and just keep focusing on yourself.

              [–]sleepyweaselisawake 4 points5 points  (7 children)

              Here's my perspective on marriage and why I'm not interested.

              Dating in my 20s was vastly different from dating in my 30s. In my 20s I was interested in being in a relationship and partnering up for the long haul to make life a little more fun and easier. Dating was rough, I was just starting out, I didn't have much to offer, and I was trying to figure out how to keep myself afloat. But, I managed, but was never in anything serious. So, I dated a bit, worked my ass off both personally and professionally and I entered my 30s in really good shape physically, professionally, and financially.

              Dating in my 30s was easy, but I wasn't entirely sure why (preTRP). Online dating was huge and swipe apps were a few years away. I was in three relationships during my early 30s and I browsed lots of dating profiles. All three relationships were with reformed party girls looking to settle down. I eventually learned I'm not interested in dating functional alcoholics. So, I continued to date and I noticed that all of the dating profiles from women around my age read the same, Not looking for a hook up, tired of the games or some variation. Basically, I took advantage of the dating market now I want to settle without a single mention of anything they have to offer in a relationship.

              So.. there I was reading and eventually swiping when I enter my epiphany phase.. if women can't tell me on their own dating profile what they bring to a relationship and I can provide everything I need for myself and casual dating/FWBs are just a swipe away why should I bother?

              I'm a confirmed bachelor. I plan to stay on the market as long as it stays solvent. But, for those looking for a relationship perhaps let guys know what you bring. What are your hobbies? Interests? Personality type? Be more creative than, I like to watch Netflix, have fun, listen to music, and sometimes stay in. No hook ups.

              Good luck!

              [–]pisellipod[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children)

              But, for those looking for a relationship perhaps let guys know what you bring. What are your hobbies? Interests? Personality type? Be more creative than, I like to watch Netflix, have fun, listen to music, and sometimes stay in. No hook ups.

              This is the thing. I have something to bring to the relationship. I speak three languages and am always improving two of them (the ones that are not native). I work in the arts industry. I work out (Ok that could be generic), I actually don't watch TV or Netflix. I have traveled to 20 countries and have friends living all around the world that I can always visit. My friends are in the creative industry - think recording contracts, NPOs, small business owners. I'm culturally aware and open. I read Ayn Rand and I follow geo-politics (or at least I try. I'm not great but I talk to people who are from those countries instead of just relying on sensationalist news).

              I also cook well (not 5 star but I can make a variety of cuisines and desserts if I'm not tired). I'm neat and organized.

              The only weakness I can admit is I'm not very athletic - I work out for health but I'm not a girl that rock climbs or plays tennis, for example. I'm a more brainy/intellectual/cultural type. Nobody has everything. I have a healthy body weight though, BMI 21 and am fashion conscious.

              The other weakness is sometimes I shut down - too much stimulation, too much emotions - and I need alone time. But generally people say I'm pleasant and nice to talk to.

              I'm not trying to write put my CV to prove anything (because "career doesn't matter") but I'm simply stating I feel I can contribute to the relationship. I'm not a Netflix and chill person.

              If you have anything you can suggest please let me know, otherwise I'm really out of ideas of how to improve/contribute. In my past relationships (I've been dating since 24) I felt like I tried to offer something but apparently it wasn't enough. Whatever it was, it was never enough. No matter what concert tickets I had to share or food I cooked or fun exciting class I was taking, it was never enough. Maybe it's our generation. We're bored easily and expect a lot from our partners. I'm really frustrated at the moment.

              I know I'm not perfect. I'm not always interesting or intellectually stimulating. We're all human beings. Even though I try to improve myself, I have days where I just lay in bed and do nothing. I really believe that we're living in an age that you constantly have to bring something new or else you're boring, you can't show that you're a human being that needs to just relax.

              [–]durtykneesEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (2 children)

              I'm a more brainy/intellectual/cultural type.

              This makes you valuable, but you need to learn how to use it in a way that makes you attractive to the type of man you want.

              I'm not trying to write put my CV to prove anything (because "career doesn't matter") but I'm simply stating I feel I can contribute to the relationship.

              What most men want, when they look for a relationship, is joy.

              "Joy" can mean different things for different guys (because we're all individuals, despite whatever generalizing we're doing here).

              A guy who's compatible with you, will want the type of joy you can provide.

              For example: I'm not all that smart nor cultured, and I'm not even much to look at. I just really love sex, and I'm crazy in all the fun kind of ways. I've always made this clear to men I dated (and laughed at the way their eyes lit up). Eventually I found a man who's actually compatible with me in the long term and we got married.

              What I'm trying to say is: know the type of guy you want, and be the type of joy they want. We're all different, so focus on compatibility, and work with your strengths.

              [–]pisellipod[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

              A guy who's compatible with you, will want the type of joy you can provide.

              For example: I'm not all that smart nor cultured, and I'm not even much to look at. I just really love sex, and I'm crazy in all the fun kind of ways. I've always made this clear to men I dated (and laughed at the way their eyes lit up).

              I understand what you're saying. For me it's also important to have joy in a relationship. As "smart or cultured" I am, I'm looking for a man to relax and have fun with. That's why it bugs me when men say "what do we contribute to their lives?"

              For me I'd rather contribute my femininity and my happiness and my softness. I love some intellectual conversation here and there but my favorite is really just saying stupid things and joking around. I don't wish to teach my boyfriend languages or historical knowledge or a musical instrument (I play two professionally) - that's not what I'm looking for in a relationship. I'm looking to relax and have fun and enjoy life with someone. I don't want to be a teacher or guidance to a man. He should be the person I can relax and take off my mask around.

              Thanks for this! It's a good reminder what's important to us. I really agree with your sentiment.

              [–]durtykneesEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              it bugs me when men say "what do we contribute to their lives?"

              My reply has always been "if you can't figure out if I'm valuable to you, please move along" :p

              I understand why that question is asked in this sub, because it's about self-improvement, but any guy who asks that question when you're dating them is a lost cause --- I mean, who wants a man who is a poor judge of character? :p

              I'm looking to relax and have fun and enjoy life with someone.

              Many men want this too. Just keep in mind that men may interpret things differently (and this is a good sub to learn the differences), so what might be relaxing/fun to you, could be different for them.

              Good luck <3

              [–]sleepyweaselisawake 0 points1 point  (2 children)

              It sounds like you have a pretty great dating resume. You sound very similar to me with a few exceptions. And, I think that's part of the problem, you're facing the same problems the average guy faces. You have a lot of great things going for you, you're pleasant, etc but the guys you find attractive aren't interested. Maybe adjust your standards. On paper I should be dating 8s and 9s, I'm financially comfortable, have a steady long term career, dress well, great hygiene, lots of interests, flexible schedule so I can travel and I love to go to concerts and events, and from what I'm told I'm a good looking guy who has a ton to offer. But, my typical matches are 5s-7s. The problem is women have access to guys who are 9s/10s and after sleeping with/dating a few that's the expectation. I don't know what kinds of guys you're interested in, but maybe change your standards or give guys who match your top 5 criteria in a partner and overlook their flaws. I hope that makes sense.

              [–]pisellipod[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

              I can certainly try. I am really trying to lower my standards. I'm just trying to find someone on an equal standard to me, because of course I can't go TOO low. I guess it just takes time to find what that is. Some of the problem is that 5-7's aren't interested in me. I still have to find a man that's first and foremost interested in me so I know he actually wants to be with me, not just because I'm convenient.

              I don't really even feel that I'm going for 8-9's - none of the men I date are really "high status" - meaning nobody is a higher up at a major company, nobody is some super athlete, nobody is a model face/body, nobody makes six figures. I really feel they're all just attractive but average middle class men. If I go any lower it would be men who maybe didn't go to college, or divorced men with children.

              I don't even have a top 5 criteria, I have four: 1) stable job, 2) traditional family structure with eventual children, 3) someone I can converse with/get along with, 4) lives a healthy lifestyle - good diet and exercise, alcohol in moderation. Not sure if that's so much to ask?

              [–]sleepyweaselisawake 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              My criteria is pretty much the same. Meeting women who aren't reformed party girls or "tired of dating jerks and are looking for something real" is damn near impossible. I have no doubt there are some great guys out there who would love to date you, but they're just not in your current circle. Maybe try something nontraditional? Do you approach guys in your day to day? Do you go to social events and meet people?

              [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              My advice is to seek out men your age or under 35 who have not been married or married once short term, no kids. Do not have sex until commitiment and avoid conversations about any past sexual activity. Prove you are high value through your choices with time and selection.

              [–]DailyChupa 6 points7 points  (12 children)

              Here's my suggestion and what I will offer when I meet the love of my life.

              Just buy each other rings and call each other man and wife.

              I will do this, buy her a ring call her my wife absolutely no reason to get the government involved. I will promise to her Infront of everyone she loves that I will be committed to her for life, no reason to sign a contract.

              If you can't trust a man to love you forever without the government involved then you can't blame him for being weary of this arrangement as it's the man who takes all the risk. If it's really about love, the government has no place. Asking the government permission to leave someone and risking your life savings if things don't work out is ridiculous and the risk alone would put a strain on any relationship.

              [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (10 children)

              I have worn a "wedding ring" (amazon) over a year and a half to show I am off the market for my man. It was my idea.

              [–]justonebite29 2 points3 points  (7 children)

              He wanted you to be off the market, but didn't pay for it himself? Played

              [–]DailyChupa 1 point2 points  (1 child)

              You sound like a keeper

              [–]MoDuReddit 10 points11 points  (4 children)

              Sounds to me that you keep finding men who have seen the worst of modern marriage and want to stay away. A cat once burned... and all.

              Also, you yourself say your SMV is limited due to.

              have dated a lot.

              Or is this not an issue for the men you've been dating?

              [–]pisellipod[S] 20 points21 points  (3 children)

              Dating doesn't mean having sex - I just mean going on dates and meeting men.

              [–]FlyingSexistPig 11 points12 points  (7 children)

              This is a great post.

              Marriage is a legal contract. Anything marriage can give you can be gotten in some other way. You can have kids without being married. You can own property without being married. You can love each other without being married.

              The marriage contract is just a piece of paper, as long as you are together. The marriage contract doesn't let you do anything together that you couldn't do without it. But it's a lot more than just a piece of paper if things go poorly.

              What happens if you two decide that you don't like each other in the future? You can't just walk away from each other and move on, because you are legally one entity. You are one entity that hates each other. You now have a situation that is going to bring out the worst in both of you. You are dividing your lives, and now it's a fight for every belonging and every asset. If you were just breaking up, then you would have to negotiate in good faith. But you're not, you're getting divorced, and the state is now involved. Each party might feel entitled to something (house, car, investments, pension, couch, dog, child support, alimony, etc.) , and while the other party might disagree, there are now lawyers involved. Lawyers get paid by the hour and have a vested interest in fomenting dissent where none exists.

              So, what's your argument for marriage? What does the man get by being married that he didn't get without it?

              There was a reason that the phrase, "Why buy the cow when the milk is free?" came about.

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                        [–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[M] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                        Please take the conversation to private messages or TRP. This is the women's sub.

                        tag: u/haku125

                        [–]haku125 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        Apologies, won't happen again

                        [–]anniix3 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                        Hi OP, I must say I empathize with you wholeheartedly as I've been through all of that myself at a point in time. I live somewhere where people are an abundance, so most people like to casually date around and have their 2-3 flings lined up each week. I understand where you are coming from.

                        Needless to say, there are guys out there who want marriage and all that. So not everybody falls into the description of the guys you mentioned above. Although your points are valid and yes, men are wary of marriage, you should see it in reverse as well: If you're going to pick a mate for life, you should also practice caution and ensure you are finding the best suited for you. It's OK to be wary about marriage and the feelings of uncertainty is valid.

                        My question is - are you looking in the right places? Are you looking to check off a list of qualities? Let's be honest - nobody is perfect, if your list is too long you might have a harder time finding someone to fill all those needs.

                        The point is that we cannot control other people's actions and behaviors. The best you can do is your part. You say that having a wife is a burden, but anything that takes commitment (whether job, responsibilities, family, relationships etc) is technically a "burden". It depends whether they want to take it on or not. Men will most certainly do it (or have done it) for the woman they feel was/is "right".

                        Also, how are you presenting yourself and coming off as to others? You can be smart, attractive, in great shape and can hold your own but if you are generally a negative energy person or remotely near that it's not enough to warrant for more. Nobody wants to be with a stickler or someone who talks down. People want to be around good vibes and positive energy - also probably why they rather keep friends and have fun. People aren't stupid and most can probably feel someone out pretty quick.

                        If you have all the great qualities and the people you date all say that you have them, then it has to be something else. Pointing the finger at "men just want to have fun and date around" to be the reason why you're having difficulty finding a mate won't help towards your goal of finding one. Doing the same thing over but still receiving the same results is aligned to the fact that either your behavior/the way you approach this subject should change or your belief system should be adjusted.

                        Best of luck to you

                        [–]pisellipod[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                        If you have all the great qualities and the people you date all say that you have them, then it has to be something else.

                        Yes I agree. I'm trying to figure out what I can do to improve (in myself). I'm just not sure what it is. I know that I fall into depression sometimes and can be anxious, this is my weakness. But I need to show my weaknesses, it doesn't make sense to pretend everything is perfect especially in an intimate relationship.

                        Also, how are you presenting yourself and coming off as to others?

                        I think about this question often. I am actually generally (besides this post which I'm just going through a difficult phase right now) very positive, radiant, soft (when I need to be), empathetic, compassionate. If anything I would say I can come off as TOO perfect and too aloof. But I'm not perfect. I have symptoms of depression, anxiety, ADHD, even borderline personality disorder, all of which are seen as lowering my RMV. So I'm certainly not perfect, I struggle emotionally a lot, I keep a lot of things bottled inside to maintain an image. So I would say maybe this is the problem. I'm just too afraid to show my emotional weaknesses because I think they are severely detrimental to maintaining good relationships and I realize they are unattractive. Therefore I try very hard to boost my other attractive qualities - appearance, feminine disposition, intellectual interests, domestic tasks, humor.

                        Are you looking to check off a list of qualities? Let's be honest - nobody is perfect, if your list is too long you might have a harder time finding someone to fill all those needs.

                        When I was early 20's I had my checklist, but now my list is 1) stable job, 2) wants a traditional family structure and eventually children, 3) someone I can enjoy their companionship/conversation.

                        Unless there's something I'm missing, I don't feel I'm asking too much. I've even "lowered" my standards to men who were freelancers (therefore not exactly stable job) or men with lucrative careers but make less than me.

                        [–]moormadz 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                        I'm sorry but you sound brain washed. Ask for what you want from the men you are with. Ask the hard questions. Otherwise move on to make room for the man that should be in your life.

                        [–]pisellipod[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                        Thank you...it's definitely important to not make my desires known.

                        [–]drops_of_Sunshine 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                        Stop going for older men that have been used and abused by exes. Get a guy slightly younger if it means avoiding all the drama. 40? Jeez I wouldn't want to have kids with a man in his 40s, that's too old. I'm engaged to a man my age. Most of my friends were as well. I'm 24 and so is he. If you're 29, try to find someone 26-30 who isn't jaded or scared of marriage. Don't worry so much about it, just find a good guy and commit to him. It could be that you are the type who over thinks? Try a change in approach and a change in the kinds of guys you go after.

                        [–]pisellipod[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        Don't worry so much about it, just find a good guy and commit to him. It could be that you are the type who over thinks?

                        Yes...

                        [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (2 children)

                        You would be a good fit for a younger single dad with one child. He’s already experienced the worst and likely didn’t have a partner as competent as you are. He will appreciate what you bring to the table. He doesn’t fear all of that or kids. He doesn’t have the option of rejecting the family life.

                        If the guys you are dating don’t want the family life, there is nothing you can do to change that.

                        [–]star_angela[🍰] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                        Why should OP see single dad, he would be dealing with enough baggage on his own, plus if I was OP I don't think I can be happy with a man who has already thrown responsibility of his child on me!

                        [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                        Because as her post clearly spelled out, the vast majority of men past 30 that have not married or had kids will opt not to. To be frank, the more established a single man is, the less appealing marriage becomes.

                        [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (12 children)

                        I think your concerns are very valid.

                        I was married once, and the way I treated my ex-husband in the separation was an anomaly - we got along well. I hired a lawyer for us to share. I even budgeted for him to pay for his mover and I even hired his mover for him.

                        Here's my story... Two kids, one with special needs, I helped him build his business and never ever tarnished his name publicly. My family lent us money to expand our business, his didn't have the money. I scrimped and saved so that he could drive nice cars and I shopped at Walmart for clothes - not a problem, we had goals. I worked very part time in the business and did the books. Unfortunately, after fourteen years of marriage, he was planning to leave me for one of our customers.

                        In no way am I saying I was the perfect wife. Nor is anyone the perfect husband. We went through some rough spots and I committed to staying with him whether we had money or not. It was the plotting to leave me, that's what broke me. The safety and security I thought I had, was just an illusion.

                        In our separation, I let him save face with all our customers and partners. I went back to work full time in the business (we've been doing it for 20 years), because it was all I've ever known. I did it so that he wouldn't be bankrupted by paying me alimony and child support. As hurt as I was, I couldn't let our children see him broken and destitute. My kids don't know anything about why mom and dad split up. Because I want him to still be a hero in their eyes regardless of his actions.

                        The problem for me now is, I'm seeing someone who is talking about us getting married. He'd prefer I not work in my job with my ex husband, but if I leave the business, I can't keep my ownership - them the rules. He'd also like me to have another child. Which I am prepared to do, it's just that I can't do that without any reassurances. What if my new husband decides to leave me for another woman? He's dated many many women. He's a natural prospector. Once I've given him a child, I feel sort of disposable. I'm 40 so, that means my chances of gaining meaningful employment are dwindling with age. Age discrimination is a problem this day in age with such a huge millennial pool for employers to pull from.

                        Yes, I can own my own business or learn a new skill, which I'm in the process of doing. But even still, I just don't know how lucrative it will be for me. Idk, because I'm so new to it.

                        I get where men are at. They work for years to build an amazing empire. But, I run the risk of being homeless, physically run down and in poverty with three children. I have a tendency to always put others happiness above my own. At my age, I can't afford to marry someone who is always looking for someone better, because I'm easily taken advantage of.

                        I also recently read an article that said, the more a couple belabours this before marriage, the more they trifle over a prenup and divorce rape, the higher the chance of divorce. It should be quick and over, the negotiation par,t or else, you're setting yourself up for a failed marriage with a painful divorce. It's predestined.

                        I will say I've heard of women taking on new husbands as a career. That it's lucrative for them. No offences but I want to punch those women in the face, myself. I hate that side of women! HATE IT! It's the reason why I keep only a few female friends and more male friends. With men, I feel no competition. I can just be myself and I'm not after anyone's husband, etc.

                        What I'm saying is, OP, I feel for you. I really really do. We are seen as a burden. But don't let other women's follies define who you are as a good potential wife to someone. Marriage is a team sport. Be different than the other women. The right man will rise to the top.

                        Edit: I want to say something... giving a man a child is one of the most selfless gifts you can give someone. You give him a legacy, you give him a chance to install values he's learned and have a sense of a kingdom. Women are valuable. We are vessels. Don't let men make you feel like you're less. There are some good ones who are in search of a woman just like you.

                        [–]pisellipod[S] 3 points4 points  (7 children)

                        Thank you. I feel like I am really self-aware and many men in their 30's (who have been burned) make it really known that they know I'm self-aware about marriage and relationships and RP. However it doesn't help me feel like I'm just an awful species because I'm a burden and am really just good for youth and beauty and companionship but not for responsibility.

                        I try really hard to be self-sufficient so I am not "something to be taken care of," I try to keep my mind sharp and learn new things, I try to keep fit, I try to be respectful and fun and easy going. I try not to complain or rant about things. It just feels so difficult. It feels like if I let out my "bad emotions" (if I'm in a bad mood or I'm sad or depressed) then I'm automatically seen as a burden. If I make a mistake I'm a burden. I feel that I can NEVER ask a man for help because you can only wait for him to OFFER you because if he isn't WILLING to offer then we're demanding or nagging or a burden.

                        I'm fine alone, to be honest. If all I'm good for is a fun time (even though I can take care of responsibilities) then fine. Maybe I'll become an escort.

                        [–]tuyguy 3 points4 points  (4 children)

                        You could be a little more assertive. Men like to be asked for help because it makes us feel useful. It is true that by opening your mouth more you run the risk of being burdensome. However, if you bottle it up and internalise this inferiority it will damage and dilute your spirit. A vibrant spirit is extremely attractive!

                        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        Thank you for this insight! No one wants a damaged spirit.

                        [–]pisellipod[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                        That's good advice. I'm usually vibrant, I'm just really down the past few days and pessimistic - I tend to put a lot of pressure on myself. It's a good reminder to STFU and keep positive, thank you.

                        [–]tuyguy 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                        Don't be so hard on yourself, don't take life too seriously.

                        [–]pisellipod[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                        Thanks for the reminder - I've just been frustrated lately. I'm sure it will be fine. I beat myself up often because I always think it's my fault whenever something goes wrong - you could say that I'm a perfectionist. But at least I try to improve. After every LTR ended I tried to take something positive to learn from the relationship and add it to my life.

                        Like I said - I'm usually happy-go-lucky but I have bouts of frustration/anxiety that can really put me down for a few days.

                        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                        Lol. You don’t have to become an escort... unless you want to. I think sometimes the mindset is good. To always be at your best, valuable, sexual and be a sounding board to men. The financial exchange thing isn’t wise in marriage. But I’m not judging people who do that.

                        I say the mindset is good because it reminds us that everyone is compensated based on the value we bring to the world. Compensation isn’t necessarily monetary. It comes in different ways like respect or acknowledgement or concern.

                        I think we as women need more outlets to talk instead of relying on our spouses for everything. Having friends is essential.

                        Don’t lose faith.

                        [–]pisellipod[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                        Don’t lose faith.

                        Thank you. I just feel very frustrated. It feels like the problem is me (which I'm sure to an extent its is) but I am confident to say I always try to improve myself and stay humble.

                        [–]paul-wizard 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                        I just wanted to chime in and say best of luck with everything. Leaving the woman that was there for you for someone new is disgraceful.

                        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                        Thanks for saying. I know he deeply regrets what happened. He had wanted to fix it, but I was afraid it would happen again and again. Because at the time, I was already so worn out from taking care of everything, I didn’t know what I could do to change my own behaviours (which ever ones he wanted me to change and apparently he had a list 😔).

                        Anyway, I’ve since learned and am learning how I need to spend more time on myself to be the ideal mate.

                        I’m looking forward to the future.

                        [–]party_dragon 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                        If he want you to "not work", he should be willing to promise (legally, prenup or something) to support you indefinitely, if need be. Otherwise, it's perfectly sensible for you to choose what's best for you, not for him/what he wants!

                        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        Thank you. I believe he is a fair person. I want to give him things he’s never had, it’s just hard for me to leap without a net.

                        [–][deleted]  (12 children)

                        [removed]

                        [–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[M] 19 points20 points  (1 child)

                        Criticizing women for wanting marriage is not allowed.

                        From the sidebar. You have been warned about this before. RPW is not your personal anti-marriage platform.

                        [–]pisellipod[S] 6 points7 points  (9 children)

                        Well on a woman's end, if I carry a man's child out of wedlock, he can easily leave me left to fend for myself and a child?

                        Also isn't it nice to have the title of husband and wife? At least for a woman. For us it's a social status. Just as a girlfriend means there's something wrong with us. We're not good enough to be made into a wife. Doesn't matter whether it's personally for me but for every woman.

                        [–]Guywithgirlwithabike2 Stars 18 points19 points  (0 children)

                        You are wrong that you are left to fend for yourself if a man impregnates you and leaves you. The government will pay you a stipend for the rest of your life for having a child out of wedlock, on a per-child basis. It will also jail the man and garnish his wages in perpetuity. And that's just a taste of the benefits in store for you.

                        The fact is that marriage is a shit deal for men, and a fantastic deal for women no matter how things work out. It's no wonder that few men are interested in even trying anymore.

                        [–]FlyingSexistPig 9 points10 points  (0 children)

                        Child support can be enforced without marriage (source: I have friends that work in child support and routinely enforce orders against parents who were never married.)

                        [–][deleted]  (6 children)

                        [removed]

                          [–]pisellipod[S] 4 points5 points  (5 children)

                          For security I guess. I mean for women our looks fade, so why wouldn't he just leave when we're 50 for a younger women, and there's no consequence for him but a consequence for us? (Being left alone because we're not physically attractive anymore)

                          So then why wouldn't a so-called GOOD man WANT marriage though? Assuming he's SO "good" and smart enough to choose wisely a woman who is a good co-pilot. Then why wouldn't he marry her?

                          [–]Trpthrowaway90000 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                          Only GOOD men want marriage? Please. Looking after your own interests isn't immoral.

                          [–][deleted]  (3 children)

                          [removed]

                            [–]Guywithgirlwithabike2 Stars 6 points7 points  (2 children)

                            The "Good Man" title is not open to a married man that cheats, even for "diversity" (a retarded concept, no matter the subject).

                            You can leave, or you can be upfront about what you're doing (or if you're a fully-realized High Value Man, there's a good chance cheating won't come up because your wife will want to join in).

                            When you get married, you take a lifelong vow - to your wife, but also to yourself. If you can't keep your word, you don't deserve the title of "Man", nor do you deserve the respect it entails.

                            [–]it_was_awiens 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                            they have an strong awareness of divorce rape, of ex-wives taking away their children, of girlfriends cheating, etc. Pretty much all of the men I've dated are EXTREMELY cautious, paranoid, or wary about marriage. Some of them even just dote on their friend's children or their sibling's children, just to have a child in their life but doesn't belong to them. They all love the single life - basically concentrate on their career, travel wherever they want, not have the burden of a wife (financially and emotionally), can pretty much have short term girlfriends wherever they want without the commitment.

                            They don't see marriage for love or a family unit, they see marriage solely as a contract.

                            This is all so true. I didn't think it was so widespread already that you would encounter this regularly (but it will only become more common). Feminism (which I believe is the cause of the male stances on marriage you describe) really screwed over women like yourself.

                            edit: I mean.. to be fair it also screwed over men with traditional family values. I certainly don't prefer to view relationships as a risk.

                            [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                            Your final clarification brought me to an interesting realization. I (late 20s, sahm) am something of a burden to my husband! I hadn't thought about it that way because he doesn't appear to either. He has half-jokingly talked about our multiple small children that way. I agree, I find them to be burdensome myself. At the same time they are also incredibly meaningful to me just as I am to my husband. Having them, we would never choose to un-have them, in spite of the burden and headaches. I hate being that person to bring Jordan Peterson into random conversations but I really like what he says about the most meaningful and important things in your life being the greatest responsibilities that you bring yourself to willingly accept and carry.

                            As for practical things to consider in your situation... Are you friends with many women your age who have the kind of life and relationship that you want for yourself? Young moms are often isolated and lonely and love having single friends to chat with;) We and our husbands also tend to keep track of our male and female friends and family who are looking for serious relationships. And if you do find what you're looking for, it would be nice to have a large built-in support system of similarly minded and situated women.

                            Also, you mentioned that you were interested in politics, philosophy, etc. Are these interests that you pursue socially and publicly? Do you attend lectures, debates, panel discussions, museum, theater, symphony and other "higher-minded" cultural events? You mentioned that you live in a cosmopolitan city so these things should be pretty widely available. They can even be fairly affordable. In your shoes, I'd be attending a mix of the things that interested me the most and the events that I found interesting but which would also attract the "conservative/religious/traditionalist" type. (Eg. I like theater and art but would probably go out with a man that I met at a history lecture before one that I met at a po-mo mixed media exhibit opening;)

                            Also, I'm going to second ppl who say start dating a bit younger.

                            [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

                            Hey sweetie, I'm sorry to hear that the dating/marriage game appears so bleak to you right now. I've had the same perspective not so long ago, but I found a way to look past that and I'd like to help you do the same. It seemed like no matter how hard I tried to fulfill what I think my suitors wanted, the less appreciation I recieved in return (law of diminishing returns, eh?) I apologize in advance if this question has been posed to you beforehand, but you mentioned that you dated several men who all more or less gave you this response. Could you perhaps list some other things that these men have in common, so we can troubleshoot your issue? In other words: what kind of man do you want and/or are find yourself attracted to? [Note that these could be two different answers. It is often the case that our minds and our loins are looking for two different things].

                            [–]pisellipod[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                            Sure, thank you for the kind answer.

                            I had a serious LTR for 1.5 years when I was 24. He was someone still getting established in a small business. Essentially he was a freelancer. I think he had some hidden anger though because he was fired from a corporate job and he quit his second corporate job because he didn't want to sit at a desk all day.

                            Second LTR for 1.5 years, he had a lot of financial instability, but he treated me well and I saw how hardworking he was even though he struggled. We were both aware of his financial difficulties and he even told me sometimes he thought he couldn't provide what I want. I tried to be accepting (because we had such a good relationship outside the finances) and "lower my standards" but in the end the finances were too dire.

                            I briefly dated a man who was 32, looking for a wife, and had a stable and very lucrative job. It turned ugly quite quickly when we realized we couldn't get along, and he also criticized everything I did for him - eg. I would cook something a certain method, he didn't like it, so I would try to change my method to what he desires, but then he would get angry at me. He didn't want me to change what I did for him, he wanted to essentially see who I was and keep me the same way, and it was his choice to choose me as who I am and my preferences if that makes sense. I felt this relationship was not a team because he was so inflexible - and I was willing to be flexible but he didn't WANT me to be flexible. Slightly complicated description but I hope you understand.

                            Another brief relationship - with a man who had a stable job but required periods of distance (US Air Force). We got along well and I showed my domesticity and companionship, he complimented me a lot on who I was and we even discussed family values right from the beginning and lifestyle choices. He even kept saying I was wife material and the whole package. But then he suddenly disappeared, and I don't believe I pressured him in any way, I was just enjoying the relationship. So it must have been something about me although I don't know what it is. If we had the discussion at the beginning and got along, but he ghosted, I just don't know what happened. I don't want to chase after someone who doesn't want me.

                            I just met someone new who is maybe a little too old for me, I think he's 15 years older, and he's divorced with two very young children. I don't believe that this is a good match for me, but we are just having some nice coffee dates but I believe I should stop seeing him soon because I don't see it working out long-term.

                            [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                            It seems to me that you are very open person (not being particular about a type, not making any pre-emtive decisions based on paychecks, etc) Firstly, do not undervalue this aspect of yourself. Your non-judgemental attitude would be precious to many, I'm just sorry you've have the luck to come across people who have taken it for granted. Judging from your reply, I can see that you've tended to pick partners that are conversent in dating-strategies and the like. To be frank, I think you can really dilute your chances of meeting commitment-phobes by constraining your dating pool to apolitical types. There'd inherently be less conflict since its not a topic they're always conciously thinking about because they'd rather think about tools or basketball or whatever, and perhaps you can enjoy more detatched (and hence more rational) discussions of the topic if it still interests you. Try to find other interests that define you.

                            In your reply, you listed a series of relationships that didn't go well, but I can glean what you may have learned from it:

                            • you do have modest financial requirements in a mate (naturally)

                            • you've been shown to resist controlling behaviour (good for you!)

                            • perhaps sometimes you can be too trusting

                            I'd urge you to dig into these things a bit further, and apply what you learned during the vetting process. You want someone who wants a partner, not a maid. A person who wants someone around so they can get things done for them without question wants a maid, even if he calls her his wife. If you find yourself fetishizing this personality, perhaps have an honest discussion with yourself about that. By doing something to understand cyclical behaviour, we can break the cycle and start a new one. The manboy you talk about extensively in your original post exists and is rampant yes, but there are also perfectly fine men that only care to have an opinion (for instance) about football. Why go to the former and not to the latter? Gauging this kind of information about yourself will help you identify what you want, so you can have some active part in going after it.

                            My final piece of advice to you is to focus on yourself. As long as you look at yourself and your assets (your domesticity, your mind, your self-awareness) as something that can be given in the face of such under-handed actions as denying you affection for not doing something up to par, then unfortunatley, that is how your partner will feel as well. Remember: “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” I know "focusing on yourself" is as cliche as it gets but I'll try my best to explain to you why it works: People (men and women) just wanted to be wanted. Commodifying your traits transforms want into need (I'll give you this if you give me this). Seperate yourself from that mentality, and approach relationships from a different angle. I know it seems unfair because you have the best of intentions, but if you look at it objectively, women are allergic to need just as much as men. When you want something, you have two ways of getting it: going after it (asking) or attracting it (making them come to you). It appears it's more fruitful to directly concern yourself with what your partner wants and what you think is appealing to him, but really, you'll have way more effective results directing your energy at making yourself desirable. Get a copy of The Rules or its many clones, read it all with a laugh, and follow its advice if only because you'll try anything at this point.

                            Please know that none of what I said is intended as chastistement. I know all too well where you're coming from and I hope this gave you some hope. Best of luck!

                            [–]pisellipod[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                            I really appreciate everything you wrote - I'm aware of your advice but it's good to have reminders. Especially:

                            When you want something, you have two ways of getting it: going after it (asking) or attracting it (making them come to you).

                            Absolutely. I always did the first strategy, I'm currently trying to work on utilizing the latter.

                            you'll have way more effective results directing your energyat making yourself desirable.

                            Yes, completely agreed.

                            You want someone who wants a partner, not a maid. A person who wants someone around so they can get things done for them without question wants a maid, even if he calls her his wife. If you find yourself fetishizing this personality, perhaps have an honest discussion with yourself about that.

                            I admit I have a slight fetish of being a submissive servant. It might be borderline DD/LG. It's what turns me on. I realize being too submissive and too eager to please is a major turn-off for a lot of men, but it's what sexually excites me. I am aware this could be a problem when looking for a partner with the same sexual desires/dynamic.

                            • perhaps sometimes you can be too trusting

                            Absolutely, yes. I'm trying to work on it and let a man "earn" me instead of me chasing after him. As per the last relationship with the man who told me I was wife material but then ghosted...I decided to let that one go. I don't want to be too trusting that of course he'll still come back to me. I won't chase this time.

                            [–]theoppositeopinion1 1 point2 points  (4 children)

                            I think which city you live in can taint your experiences a lot.

                            Do you live downtown of a major urban centre? Or do you live in a smaller (less than 500k people) town where there are more families?

                            new York for example has many many more women than men that are dating, and the men who are dating, have very high SMV in terms of status/wealth/etc, who went to New York specifically to make a name for themselves and enjoy the spoils of their labour (women, drinks, wealth, etc..). Same thing in San Fran and other 'rich big cities'. If you move to Spokane or Witchita, suddenly you're the top tier woman swarmed by simple, traditional, masculine guys working as mechanics and millrights with an eye out for their wife. They won't mind their girl managing the branch of their local bank making a bit more money, they have their ranch and that's what makes the family happy.

                            [–]pisellipod[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

                            Do you live downtown of a major urban centre?

                            Yes, and this is probably the problem. There are many young attractive women that move here for a few months to a few years - not looking for a LTR because they're here short-term. It's easy for men to date a variety of attractive women with absolutely no commitment required. And it's just as easy to replace one if something goes wrong.

                            [–]theoppositeopinion1 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                            I can't argue with that. I recommend looking at the latest census and see for yourself the supply/demand of singles in your area. I bet it will be surprising to learn that you're in an 'oversupply of hot single women' area.

                            I can point you to places where there's such a desperate shortage of women, that quality men will fight over marrying the overweight, nagging bitch. I'm sure in those places you'd be a top 1%'er and have flowers delivered to you from secret admirers on a daily basis competing for your attention. Problem is, these places aren't very nice places to live and are often away from civilization.

                            [–]jackcannies 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                            I don't think all men are like what you have said. May be you ask too much for a perfect marriage.

                            [–]RedPillSailor 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                            this is the case SPECIFICALLY because of the culture of Acceptable Divorce Rape.

                            here’s an analogy: would you take a job that had the potential for complete contentedness. however, your boss has the right to psychologically and/or physically abuse you at her/his whim, regardless for how amazing an employee you were good or bad you performed, and this was completely legal. would you take the job?

                            you’re lamenting the fact that most men won’t take the “job.” your (very understandable) desire for commitment doesn’t negate the legal realities surrounding that relationship. RP and Confirmed Bachelor though i am, i hope you find what your looking for. #GoodLuck

                            [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children)

                            Another thought.. have you tried any cognitive behavioral therapy for your other, emotional issues? I had similar problems with stress, adhd, anxiety, and depression and found a lot of relief after committing to and following through with several months of weekly therapy with a clinical psychologist trained in cbt and mindfulness.

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