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THEORY'For Women Only' - Respect and Love - Chapter 2 (self.RedPillWomen)

submitted by girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor

First, check out the introduction post here before you get started.

Disclaimer: this is a summary of Chapter 2 in the book For Women Only not my own thoughts, feelings or research.

Let’s get started.


If you take away one thing from this post, let it be this: To Men, respect means more than love. In fact, when given the choice, men would rather feel unloved than inadequate and disrespected.

The Author begins by describing a relationship retreat that she attended as a young adult. To demonstrate men and women’s relationship needs, they did a quick “experiment”. After putting all the men on one side of the room and all the women on the other the following question was asked: “If you had to choose, would you rather feel alone and unloved or inadequate and disrespected?”

If you’ve spent some time on RPW you can probably see where this is going.

The majority of women said they would never want to feel alone and unloved (to the surprise of the men). The men, on the other than, overwhelmingly preferred to be alone and unloved as long as they did not feel inadequate or disrespected. The women in the group were just as surprised by this information and rightly so. Without being told otherwise, we all innately expect the opposite sex to share our perceptions of the relationship.

Respect for men is so critical that 3 out of 4 would prefer to go their entire lives feeling unloved than disrespected.

The Author’s lightbulb moment comes when she realizes that a man equates the respect and love. With this in mind, we can see that for a man feeling disrespected is no different than feeling unloved.

 

If we want to love our guys in a way that matters to them we need to respect them.

 

In just the way that we want to be loved unconditionally, even when we are miserable, sick, pmsing, cranky, you name it; men need respect to be unconditional. This might mean respecting him and trusting him even if you don’t feel like he’s meeting your expectations. It is very common for us (as a culture) to believe that love is supposed to be unconditional but respect is something you must earn. For your man, love is respect. If you love him unconditionally, then you must respect him just as unconditionally or he won’t feel it.

Remember, we give what we receive. A man who is unconditionally respected by his SO will in turn, show her unconditional love.

 

Disrespect and your Man

Women cry when they feel unloved and alone. This is our natural reaction. How many fights have you had with a man where you felt terrible and cried? Now, how many fights have you had with a man where he gets angry and blows up?

Men express the pain of disrespect through anger. In the heat of the moment, none of us are good at articulating our feelings. A man is unlikely to say “you disrespected me and I do not appreciate that”. Instead, he feels the pain and humiliation of your disrespect and it expresses itself as anger.

Think about that the next time he gets angry. That anger is the same thing as your tears. It is a likely a response to something you did or said that made him feel disrespected (and remember, respect is male for love).

 

How are we messing up?

No matter how many times we say: “I love you” as long as we continuing trying to control things men will interpret it as disrespect and mistrust.

If we keep the mentality that ‘respect is earned’ then we are putting the onus on him to be amazing. Remember, we chose our men because we vet well and start out thinking they are amazing. Hold on to the respect that you felt early in your relationship. Do this because choosing to trust, appreciate, admire and believe in him is choosing respect and respect is a choice we make.

But if you don’t respect him?

It’s possible that you are you caught in The Crazy Cycle. This happens when the man doesn’t give enough love, so the woman doesn’t feel love and treats him with distrust and as undeserving of respect, he in turn feels slighted and then doesn’t give love. If you choose respect and behave as though your respect him him it breaks the cycle.

But how can I respect him if I don’t feel respect?

We do this by understanding that feelings follow words and actions rather than the other way around. If you disaparage him all the time, then you will begin to feel contemptuous of him. This is simply the way our brains are wired. The decision to show respect can easily turn to actual feeling of respect. And you must demonstrate it. It’s not real to a man unless you show it.

 

In practice

 

Saying to him: “I respect you” doesn’t have the same impact as him saying to you “I love you”. Instead, te needs to hear things like: “honey I’m so proud of you”, “I trust you”, and “thank you for what you did”.

 

There are six areas where men need to be shown respect.

Respect his judgement This means respecting his knowledge, opinions, and decisions. You show this by not questioning his knowledge or argueing with his decisions. Defer to him. Many men expressed that their coworkers trust their judgement more than their wives do. Men wish they could tell their wives to show more trust in their decision making abilities

 

Respect his abilities Men need to figure things out for themselves. They have a drive to conquer the world in big and small ways. This might be as simple as conquering the handyman fixes around the house. If a man sets a task for himself and we try to help, he will most likely interpret it as a sign of our distrust in him. You must have confidence that he can learn and do these things.

The age old example of asking for directions explains this problem. Telling him to ask for directions is interpreted as telling him you don't trust him to figure it out himself. Maybe you don’t but let him figure it out. Forcing ourselves to trust him in little things is a big deal to a man. The little demonstrations of respect are signs of our overall trust in him.

And when it comes to giving advice, we must remember that he is the one up to bat and it is his competency on the line. Giving advice can get very close to telling him how to do it and that sends the message that we don’t believe in him or his abilities. When you want to give advice, try instead to tell him simply: “I know you can do it!”

 

Respect what he accomplishes It is important for a man that he does something, does it well, and someone notices. In a survey conducted by the author, she realized that while girls ask themselves “Am I special, am I loveable?” boys ask themselves “Do I measure up? Am I any good at what I do?”

Men needed to feel noticed, able, and appreciated for what they do externally. This means saying things like: “You did well at that meeting” or “you are such a great dad” Both of these sentiments can be better than “I love you”.

An important side note here is the issue of “Thank you ...but”. This is painful for a man to hear. You may not intend it this way but to him it sounds like ‘you failed’ If your man has expressed that “nothing I do is ever good enough for you” Then you’ve been sending the message “you tried and failed”).

Always tell him you are proud of him.

 

Respect in communication As women we have the power to build our men up or tear them down. Some things we do will push buttons or be very painful even if that isn’t our intent. What we say matters but so does how and where we say things.

You may say: “I want to fix this thing in the house, but you aren’t a fix it guy, we should hire someone” He will hear: “You can’t do it, you are inadequate”.

Sometimes men will hear disappointment in the things we say. They will read negativity into reminders about chores and tasks, or worse they will hear accusations of laziness and mistrust. Inherent in the reminder is a statement of disappointment, it’s the implication that they failed. Other times they will hearing attacks. The author crafted a survey question: “Do you know how to put together a romantic event that your SO would enjoy” This comes across as attack mode because it starts off by suggesting the man is inept. Instead she rephrases the question as “Suppose you had to plan an anniversary event for your partner, do you know how”. This is better because it doesn’t question his adequacy and abilities.

Remember, It doesn’t matter what we’re saying, it matters what he hears. Most men are highly sensitive to disrespect including seeing it where we never intend We need to adjust to their sensitivities just as we’d expect them to adjust to ours. It is important to love your partner in the way they need to be loved.

 

Respect in public Never criticize, put down or question your man’s judgement in front of others. Often what we women consider light teasing is actually torment to men. Women sometimes feel that they need to take their man’s ego down a notch. This couldn’t be further from the truth. We do not have to take down their egos because their egos are incredibly fragile. What is at stake in these situations is not his overabundance of pride but rather his secret feelings of inadequacy. Public disrespect is painful and men will avoid it at any cost. Some single men told the author that public disrespect is a sufficient red flag to cause a break up. No man wants to live with public disrespect, teasing or criticism for the rest of his life. What we think of as good natured teasing isn't good natured from his perspective.

The author relays a discussion with her father. Here is what he told her: : “a man might take wrong any sort of teasing that shows that he is not in control or doesn’t have the respect of his wife. Men wouldn’t take this from another man at all, so it is not appropriate for his wife to tease him in this way either. The man is the provider and protector and a woman’s teasing tells others that she believes that her husband doesn’t know how to take care of everything.” He also tells her that “It depends on if a guy is already feeling inadequate in a particular area.” What one man mind brush off, another will find painful if he’s already questioning himself in that arena. “It is far worse to be teased in front of other men. Guys are in competition and your wife knows you better than anyone. If your wife, who knows you best, doesn’t respect you then why should other men. It’s a sign of weakness if you don’t know the other man well. It’s also humiliating because the other man will feel sorry for you that your wife doesn’t respect you”. They point out that belittling your husband in front of other men can even derail his career because other men will see him as weak and not worthy of respect.

In addition to how this negative talk makes them men feel when they are present, it causes problems for us even when our men are not in the room. Talking negatively behind you man’s r back is both public (even though he’s not there) and impacts our own feelings. Because, once again, feelings follow speech and action, if you talk poorly about your man, you can start to feel dissatisfied with the relationship.

If you publicly build your man up, he’ll think you are amazing. Do this with honest praise and soliciting help in front of others. Tell stories that show him in a good light. From what the men say, this is equivalent to a dozen roses and a surprise night out without kids. He will feel adored.

 

Respect in our assumptions Take some time and listen to your own assumptions. You may not realize how often your assumptions come from a place of negativity or distrust.: Some examples: a. We assume that ge needs to be reminded (Honey, have you done X yet?). When we do this we are assuming he’s forgetful or he needs to be prodded(nagging anyone?). Instead assume the best of him: “I asked him to do it and he hasn’t done it, but I trust him so there must be a reason he hasn’t done it. Just because his reason is different from yours doesn’t make it less legitimate, his priorities may be different and that’s ok. b. We assume that he’s choosing not to help. Instead start with the assumption that he doesn't’ see that help is needed, rather than that he sees and ignores it. Give your SO the benefit of the doubt, he likely has good intentions. c. We assign unloving motives to him. This is a problem because we know now that our words and action impact his well being and feelings of love towards us. Consider first that perhaps, it is something you did or said that pushed him into the issue. A woman who is always nagging may push her husband to withdraw and become unloving (which is really reaction to disrespect).

 


We hold power and responsibility and opportunity to build up or tear down our men. We can strengthen or hobble them. Respect at home affects every area of his life. If he feels competent at home he’ll be powerful in the world.

You can always choose to be respectful. Don’t ignore problems, but find things to appreciate and applaud regardless. Focus on what is good and worthy of praise.

Men are forgiving once wives and girlfriends suddenly ‘get it’. Apologize if you’ve been disrespectful. And most importantly, when you apologize: don’t say I’m sorry I made you feel this way. Instead say: I’m really sorry I said that, it was disrespectful and I know I can trust you.

Remember, behind every man is a good woman - if a man’s wife supports and believes in him, he can conquer the world.


[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 14 points15 points  (22 children)

No matter how many times we say: “I love you” as long as we continuing trying to control things men will interpret it as disrespect and mistrust.

Bingo!

In fact, if you act this way, your "I love you" will be this empty, hollow and meaningless statement that may even make him feel unloved!

If we keep the mentality that ‘respect is earned’ then we are putting the onus on him to be amazing. Remember, we chose our men because we vet well and start out thinking they are amazing. Hold on to the respect that you felt early in your relationship. Do this because choosing to trust, appreciate, admire and believe in him is choosing respect and respect is a choice we make.

TRP often speaks about men holding frame. Thing is, it's impossible to constantly hold frame because we're all human.

It's true that emotions follow the way we think, speak and act. Action has the greatest impact, speech less so and thought even less so.

Saying to him: “I respect you” doesn’t have the same impact as him saying to you “I love you”. Instead, te needs to hear things like: “honey I’m so proud of you”, “I trust you”, and “thank you for what you did”.

We speak to women (primarily) with words and to men (primarily) with actions.

I do slightly disagree with the author on the following point. The author suggests that respect for men be unconditional just like love for women be unconditional. I agree that in practice it should be this way. If the respect isn't genuine, act as if it is. However, this is unsustainable long term. Eventually, he will need to feel that your respect for him is truly justified and not just empty flattery.

Women sometimes feel that they need to take their man’s ego down a notch. This couldn’t be further from the truth. We do not have to take down their egos because their egos are incredibly fragile. What is at stake in these situations is not his overabundance of pride but rather his secret feelings of inadequacy.

👌

Men are forgiving once wives and girlfriends suddenly ‘get it’. Apologize if you’ve been disrespectful. And most importantly, when you apologize: don’t say I’m sorry I made you feel this way. Instead say: I’m really sorry I said that, it was disrespectful and I know I can trust you.

In my experience, this is a point that many women have a hard time with, but it's true. Men are generally much more forgiving than women. Just accept it when he forgives you. It's probably genuine even if you don't understand how it's possible.

Men love women, women respect men is a post on this topic that I wrote a while back.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 9 points10 points  (14 children)

TRP often speaks about men holding frame. Thing is, it's impossible to constantly hold frame because we're all human.

I've seen it suggested by TRP men that even the smallest 'failures' or moments of foolishness will make a woman lose all respect. I can see this being true in some very specific circumstances such as FWB situations or initial vetting...and then only maybe. Overall though, it is impossible for a man to maintain a perfect frame 100% of the time. There are always going to be set backs. We women have to remember when those set backs happen that respect is sometimes a choice.

But I do agree with you here:

If the respect isn't genuine, act as if it is. However, this is unsustainable long term. Eventually, he will need to feel that your respect for him is truly justified and not just empty flattery.

As best I can tell, the book is targeted at women in relationships, likely married. In these cases, the respect should already exists and she's referring to specific instances where you might be having doubts about your man.

My take is that respect (for men) and love (for women) is earned during the vetting/dating stage. Once you have committed (you are engaged, married or living together in a lifetime-LTR) then you fall back on the idea of unconditional respect. It's not that both parties don't have to keep working to be their best post-commitment selves, but there should be a bit more leeway for screw ups over a lifetime.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 3 points4 points  (13 children)

We women have to remember when those set backs happen that respect is sometimes a choice.

I don't disagree with you on this. I think it goes both ways. There are certain things that are natural reactions, but we have the freedom to choose to rise above our base instincts. We aren't animals, we're therefore not enslaved to our instincts. In this case - sure, if a lion "loses frame" , he's out. There's no forgiveness there. But if your man loses frame, you can still choose to not lose your attraction for him just like you'd want him to choose to not loose attraction for you if you have an extra 20 lbs of baby weight.

Of course, all this works to a point and gets more and more difficult the more you need to rise above your instincts. If a man occasionally loses frame, it's easier to rise above the natural diminishing of attraction than if he's constantly losing frame. If a woman gains 20 lbs it's easier to still find her attractive than if she gained 100 lbs. Etc.

Also, nature and the freedom to choose

My take is that respect (for men) and love (for women) is earned during the vetting/dating stage. Once you have committed (you are engaged, married or living together in a lifetime-LTR) then you fall back on the idea of unconditional respect. It's not that both parties don't have to keep working to be their best post-commitment selves, but there should be a bit more leeway for screw ups over a lifetime.

Absolutely!

In other words - the premise ought to be that we love and respect each other. That we fulfill each other's needs and Care for one another etc. (This is why it drives me crazy when people say things like "I need to be romances to be interested in sex". If that's the case, the default is that there's no sex unless it's earned through romance. It shouldn't be that way. The default should be to always have sex unless there's a reason not to. Same with regards to all other need. End rant).

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 7 points8 points  (11 children)

Of course, all this works to a point and gets more and more difficult the more you need to rise above your instincts

Yes, there is a point that it is unfair to ask the other person to rise above. Personally u/guywithgirlwithabike and I agreed prior to marriage that getting fat was a no-questions-asked cause for divorce on either end.

I've seen TRP suggest that tripping, literally tripping, would cause a woman to think less of you and start the decline of the relationship. So when I say that there are things that must be forgiven and times that we must choose unconditional respect (or for men unconditional love) I'm thinking of less long term issues. You don't choose to respect a man who repeatedly cheats and you don't choose to love a woman who doesn't take care of herself (Why your looks are important to your man is another one of my favorite chapters in this book).

But a man who is struggling because he lost his job, yeah, that's when you choose to respect him even if you feel stressed about the lack of money and how to afford the kids new shoes. If that same man sits on his butt playing video games for 2 years and doesn't start looking for a job...different story.

I need to be romances to be interested in sex". If that's the case, the default is that there's no sex unless it's earned through romance.

You'll enjoy the chapter on sex then :-P

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 5 points6 points  (10 children)

I've seen TRP suggest that tripping, literally tripping, would cause a woman to think less of you and start the decline of the relationship.

Lol! I haven't seen that, but it does make sense to a degree if you remove the exaggeration from it. On some subconscious level it may be true that attraction may go down a notch when the guy trips down the stairs. However, this is a good example of where it's appropriate to rise above this base instinct. I personally couldn't ever be with someone who was incapable of rising above their instincts in something like this. Nor would I want to be with someone like that.

Speaking about getting fat, we can nitpick on that. Some people are okay with 20 lbs, others are okay with 50 lbs. There isn't a hard and fast rule. Everyone is different in how much they can rise above and when it's too much to ask.

You'll enjoy the chapter on sex then :-P

Sounds like I'll enjoy most other chapters too 😀

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 1 point2 points  (9 children)

Speaking about getting fat, we can nitpick on that.

While I'm sure that people's tolerance for this will vary to some degree, I bet we can come up with a reasonable growth rate. Because 10lbs on me may be the same as 30lbs on you relative to our starting size.

What do you think .. a 20% increase in weight is acceptable? We'll make it RPW law :-P

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 3 points4 points  (8 children)

What do you think .. a 20% increase in weight is acceptable? We'll make it RPW law :-P

You're very generous. A 1% increase is grounds for divorce, a 2% increase and you're brought before the RPW tribunal for a flogging, a 3% increase and you go before the firing squad.

Such is stated in RPW law section 38, bylaw 624

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Damn! I misplaced my manual....oh no wait, it's under a pile of sex toys...

<reads>

Blow jobs are required for boyfriends at a rate of 1 per week increasing at a rate of 1 per week per year together. Blow jobs for husbands are required daily or upon demand. Denial is grounds for instant divorce or nexting

<checks title page>

Created by the TRP Vanguards

Hmmmm

[–]Guywithgirlwithabike2 Stars 3 points4 points  (6 children)

I nominate u/durtyknees for the RPW flogging tribunal.

[–]durtykneesEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (5 children)

I'm not sure flogging facilitates weight loss, but I'll happily try it for science.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 2 points3 points  (4 children)

No, but there must be consequences for bad behavior....and if your man spanks you.... well that's just not punishment is it ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[–]DelicateDevelopment -1 points0 points  (6 children)

Eventually, he will need to feel that your respect for him is truly justified and not just empty flattery.

Ok,... what does the difference look like? Is STFU actually a request for respect (=love) and is this the reason why it is emphasized so much? Is this why submission or deference are so important to men, because they show respect and also trust?

What are the actions that really show respect when words feel "empty"?

It makes me so sad that despite truest and deepest feelings of love and affection and respect, I failed to communicate them in a way that could be understood by the other in so many situations and that apparently I made people around me feel unloved even though I really cared.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Is STFU actually a request for respect (=love) and is this the reason why it is emphasized so much? Is this why submission or deference are so important to men, because they show respect and also trust?

Yes to all of this. STFU for me is an instruction to not question everything he does or says. I have a natural tendency to test an idea for flaws even if I agree with it. I STFU because he views the questioning as disrespectful. He views it this way because he's already thought through whatever he is saying or planning. I (and a lot of women) talk through our thoughts as we solidify them. Not my husband (or a lot of men), they think about it all the way, solidify the idea and then speak it out loud. So questioning him says "I don't think you've thought this through". STFU says "I don't know what went on in your head, but I trust that you came to this conclusion rationally and with sound judgement".

Submission is simply another way of showing respect. People get really caught up on the word which is why I tend to call it deference. Deferring to his judgement tells him that you trust him and you think he'll make a good decision whether you weigh in or not.

What are the actions that really show respect when words feel "empty"?

  • Allowing him to lead with out question -- if you are going to dinner and he picks a place, go with it. if you are making huge life decisions, talk it out and understand his side rather than assuming yours is the only right way.

  • Be a cheerleader for his accomplishments. Praise him when he does something well, show it off if you can, brag publicly -- these are words but they are words attached to something he did, not just a vague "I respect you". And "public" praise is extra special.

  • Assume he'll do well in advance of something. If he's talking about a difficult project, express confidence in his ability to handle it in advance rather than praise after the fact (or perhaps along with praise after the fact).

  • Let him do things for himself without offering help of advice. If you ask for help and he doesn't do it the way you like, just drop it.

apparently I made people around me feel unloved even though I really cared.

I messed up for a long time before I started to get anything right. It's a testament to my husband's patience and confidence that he put up with my disrespect. We're surrounded by tropes about loser men and the wives who nag them until they are useful so it's no wonder there is a plague of disrespectful women these days. The only thing you can do is change going forward. Don't let the past drag you down. Just be better now that you know :-)

[–]DelicateDevelopment 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just be better now that you know :-)

It is inevitable as soon as one understands, isn't it?

I don't feel dragged. Just huge regrets and unhappiness that result from the insight into the tragic.

I also feel sympathy for men that have to give both, love and respect, while they receive nothing. Sorry for them to be love bombed everyday and even forced to love. Surrounded by empty words and not receiving anything in return.

I guess I need some mourning, not only because of him but also, and then, eventually, probably I need to let him go. It is easier now. He is the only one whom I trusted from the first moment and I lost him because I was fearful and couldn't show him that and how much I respect him.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I'm not sure what to make of your comment. Is it a question, a statement, a lament, a rant? A little bit of all the above?

I'll try anyway. Hopefully it'll be useful.

Picture this scenario. A woman is concerned about something serious. What will her female friends do?

Now picture this scenario. A man is concerned about something serious. What will his male friends do?

The female friends will soothe her through talking and talking and talking some more. They'll reassure her that everything will be okay even though they can't guarantee that it will indeed be okay. They'll use empty words to make their friend feel better. This is the way women operate. This works for the gals.

The male friends will listen silently to the problem, asking only for clarification. They'll hug their buddy, pat him on the back and maybe even punch his upper arm. They'll offer to help only if there's actual solving they're capable of. Otherwise, they'll just listen. They'll do an activity together in complete silence.

Women speak with words, men speak with actions. Words to men are almost meaningless, actions are something that women aren't interested in. How many men were told off for trying to fix the problem instead of just listening?

Likewise, if you give your man empty compliments, it's worse than not giving any compliments. However, if you give him a genuine compliment, that'll express your admiration for him.

If you can tie it in with an action, it's even better. Instead of just telling him how nice it was for him to do xyz, take his hand, look him in the eye and tell him how much you appreciate what he did as you squeeze him close (or something similar to this). By tying your compliment in with an action, you solidify it.

I hope this helps.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[deleted]

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Much of your confusion is addressed in this series by u/girlwithabike on the book - for women only.

    [–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor 11 points12 points  (0 children)

    This is an excellent post regarding the concept of respect and how it works.

    I want to reiterate the point made about men becoming angry when they feel disrespected. It's really true. Anytime a man shows the slightest bit of anger is due to feeling disrespected, and if that ever happens you should immediately STFU and/or apologize. Men really are more forgiving than women, so if you can realize your mistake of disrespecting him, he will most likely forgive you.

    [–]RedDespair 26 points27 points  (1 child)

    Shit. They’re onto us

    [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

    Don't worry, we promise to use our powers for good ;-)

    [–]carrotriver 6 points7 points  (1 child)

    Thank you for doing this!

    [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    :-) you are welcome!

    [–]durtykneesEndorsed Contributor 4 points5 points  (18 children)

    Hey you! I love you. Thanks so much for posting this! (and for reading books so I don't have to :p)


    The little demonstrations of respect are signs of our overall trust in him.

    I wonder very much if "trust" and "respect" are interpreted as one and the same, when you get to the core of it.


    It was only through my participation in this sub that I realize a lot of things I do privately with my husband is interpreted as "lacking respect", which always cracks him up when I relayed the sentiment to him. I respect and trust him completely, but this mainly manifests through body language and actions. Privately, I'm very.. "casual" with words when I'm just being my genuine self, and he never wants that to change (I asked :p).

    I've long wondered about the discrepancy, but this post's description about trust and respect made me think they might just be interpreted as one and the same in a man's mind, and "respect" is more stressed in general, to compensate for a lack of "trust".

    Most people (regardless of gender) seem to have trouble juggling trust and vetting in relationships (fear of manipulation, etc), so a lack of trust is completely understandable.

    Hence, demonstrations of "respect" can compensate for an inherent lack of "trust".. :o (?)

    Your thoughts?

    [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 4 points5 points  (6 children)

    Thanks so much for posting this! (and for reading books so I don't have to

    Admittedly, this was more of a 'listening to books so you don't have to' which is faaaaar easier than reading :-).

    I wonder very much if "trust" and "respect" are interpreted as one and the same, when you get to the core of it.

    I think they are intertwined. Respect is maybe the way in which we demonstrate trust? I'm not entirely sure except that they are definitely tangled together. To me, they are pretty similar and the ways I would demonstrate either is very similar. What is the different really between "I trust you to make this decision" or "I respect your decision". If there is a finer distinction between the two in the male brain then I don't know.

    In your relationship (you specifically), you demonstrate your complete trust in your husband through your daily actions. When you relay the looser language that you use with him (on RPW), people don't realize the preexisting dynamic that screams "I trust and respect you".

    Most people (regardless of gender) seem to have trouble juggling trust and vetting in relationships (fear of manipulation, etc), so a lack of trust is completely understandable.

    This problem speaks to the downside of a sub that caters to both dating women and committed women. I commented to Loneliness-inc that I think during the vetting/dating stages that both respect and love are earned. Once the relationship is solid then we lean more towards giving those things unconditionally even if our partner has some small fails.

    But yes, it makes sense to me that the actions of respect can be a strong strategy during dating even if we haven't made it to fully trusting (and submitting).

    For example: You can build him up in front of others before you trust him completely. The only thing you risk here is looking foolish if you turn out to be wrong. The upside is that it would be a sign to him that you respect him, it would make him feel good and valued and he's probably start to think you were pretty great.

    [–]durtykneesEndorsed Contributor 4 points5 points  (5 children)

    faaaaar easier than reading :-)

    For me, the content is what's difficult, because everything about it is a reminder of all the things that adult women in my family didn't do for their men, while I was a child growing up under the same roof. I didn't have a good time under that roof so I prefer not to be reminded as much as possible.

    I wonder how much of a harpy I would've been, if I actually got along well with family, and wasn't a "sinful" reject determined to do everything differently in my adult relationships :p

    So seriously, thanks for the summary! <3

    What is the different really between "I trust you to make this decision" or "I respect your decision".

    If I tried really hard to find a difference, I'd say "I trust you to make this decision" implies an expectation for a favorable outcome, while "I respect your decision" implies an acceptance regardless of outcome.

    Semantics-wise, "respect" has more positive connotations (I think?).

    people don't realize

    Can't blame them, since I didn't realize either :p I run on intuition most of the time, and the fallout is always less than when I try to run on overanalyzing. Overanalyzing is a fun hobby tho!

    This problem speaks to the downside of a sub that caters to both dating women and committed women.

    I don't think it's a downside.

    The typical advice of "don't stop dating your partner after marriage" is something I've applied to my marriage and I think it's one of the reasons for its continued perkiness (I find that mid 30s is a surreal age where marriages of most peers start cracking, if not already a dumpster fire .. maybe I just need better friends).

    during the vetting/dating stages that both respect and love are earned

    My approach to vetting has always been to extend respect (and love) first, and see how the person handles it, then judge the shit out of them for it.

    It's the same approach as the saying:

    Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. It is easy for the weak to be gentle. Most people can bear adversity; but if you wish to know who a person really is, give them power.

    Even after marriage, I still continue trying to earn the commitment (/monogamy :p) of my husband, and he continues to "earn" my uncontrollable arousal for him by staying healthy and unapologetically Machiavellian.

    "Earning" isn't a "chore", it's mutual respect --- but that's just my opinion and I'm probably using the wrong words here (I eagerly await for someone to come yell at me).

    [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 2 points3 points  (4 children)

    it is a reminder of all the things that adult women in my family didn't do for their men

    I can entirely understand that. Here is how I look at it -- my mother once told me that the best you can hope for as parents is to be better than your parents were. That means you've taken the good stuff they did and you've learned from the bad stuff. You'll make your own mistakes because everyone does, but you shouldn't make the same mistakes that they did.

    I feel that our romantic relationships fit with this theory as well. I will undoubtedly make many mistakes with my husband over the course of our lifetimes. The books and RPW help me to more clearly recognize the mistakes that my parents made and not repeat them.

    But you are welcome for the summary. There are 10 chapters. We'll see how many I get through before I get distracted by something shiny and wander off.

    Semantics-wise, "respect" has more positive connotations (I think?).

    I'm going to defer to loneliness because the linguistic part of this gets fuzzy for me. If I have to think about it, I probably respect people who I don't entirely trust but I'm not sure that I trust people that I don't respect. I'm thinking of my late grandfather. I loved him like crazy and respected what he built in his lifetime. However, he was a bit self centered and I didn't trust that he'd follow through on promises he made unless it was convenient for him. My boss, who I do not love (obviously) I respect what he's built but I also trust that he will always be true to his word. Having watched what sort of man he is with his friends, family and clients, I am completely comfortable basing my future with him on a handshake.

    I don't think it's a downside.

    I think you approaching it from the opposite side that I am. I agree with continuing to date your husband. There is no reason to think that sexual strategy loses value after the commitment is obtained.

    Where I think it gets difficult is that submission, trust, respect, deference etc etc ... all the things we call 'strategy' need to be rolled out appropriately in a relationship, while the vetting is going on. We don't want to tell a woman to begin deferring to a man after two dates... but a wife who is not allowing her husband to lead, we generally agree is making a mistake (exceptions apply but not on RPW).

    You or I could safely implement the entire RPW playbook within our marriages because we have the commitment of marriage. Another EC is in a 6 year (IIRC) committed relationship. I know she's following the strategies that we talk about. However, if I were 24 yo me at the beginning of my relationship with my husband, I'd maybe struggle figuring out what to roll out and when.

    I find that mid 30s is a surreal age where marriages of most peers start cracking

    We'll be married 5 years this year. One friend is at 6 years, another 5, another 4 and another 3. That accounts for the married people I am closest with plus my ex who I keep tabs on :-P. So far no one has cracked but I feel like the actual marriages are still new even if the relationships are all much longer term.

    "Earning" isn't a "chore", it's mutual respect

    Earning: doing the things that will make him continue to see you the way you want him to see you. I think for and RP sub, 'earning' is the correct word. It indicates both that it is something you have work for and that it is in your control.

    [–]durtykneesEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    the linguistic part of this gets fuzzy for me

    I'm thinking strictly within the context of a romantic relationship, to keep the semantics more focused :p


    need to be rolled out appropriately in a relationship

    If I were 18 again, I'd still rev up the steamroller, and pick through the aftermath for survivors, if any. Not saying that's good advice at all:p, but it's very effective when you're too young to know what's right/wrong for you, and RPW did not exist yet.

    However, I find generic vetting advice incomplete on the topic of being a good judge of character before even going on a date.

    If a woman isn't good at reading people, she's not going to be effective at vetting, nor knowing when to roll which out. Moreover, the foundation she's building a relationship on is a toss-up, and it'll all come tumbling down if she's not lucky.

    But it's also impractical to talk about it in abstract terms, because there are so many variables, that good advice for one person would be bad advice for another, simply because different people have different needs/preferences. But vetting is probably off-topic for this thread, so I'll stop here lol

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (2 children)

    I'm going to defer to loneliness because the linguistic part of this gets fuzzy for me. If I have to think about it, I probably respect people who I don't entirely trust but I'm not sure that I trust people that I don't respect. I'm thinking of my late grandfather. I loved him like crazy and respected what he built in his lifetime. However, he was a bit self centered and I didn't trust that he'd follow through on promises he made unless it was convenient for him. My boss, who I do not love (obviously) I respect what he's built but I also trust that he will always be true to his word. Having watched what sort of man he is with his friends, family and clients, I am completely comfortable basing my future with him on a handshake.

    To summarize what I said in the other comment - trust is deeper than respect, that's why you need to respect before you can trust. OTOH, they are two separate things.

    Upon further thought I realized that perhaps this can be compared to love and like. Loving someone is deeper than merely liking them. OTOH, it's important to also like the people you love. It's possible to dislike those who you love and that isn't good. Like and love each have something the other doesn't have. Likewise, respect and trust each have something the other doesn't have even though one is a deeper form of the other.

    I know I'm not being as clear and elaborate and organized as I should be. Perhaps in a future post I'll do a better job than in comments that are responses.

    [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    There are probably a few comment threads that would be worth revisiting as posts. I think you pointed the same out to me awhile back.

    And as for what you are saying here, this makes sense to me. My mother (bless her cold cold heart) used to tell us "I will always love you but I don't always have to like you". I don't see myself repeating that to children but it helped me to understand that her love was unconditional but that didn't mean that any and all behavior was acceptable. Noteworthy to the content of this post: she screwed up my brother way worse than my sister and I.

    So tl;dr: trust and respect are connected. You typically start with respect. Trust is more intimate. You can have one, the other or both. Healthy relationships require both.?

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Yes!

    One is internal and the other is external. Respect is external to trust, like is external to love. One is possible without the other, but a good relationship will have both. Definitely worthy of its own post.

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 5 points6 points  (10 children)

    I wonder very much if "trust" and "respect" are interpreted as one and the same, when you get to the core of it.

    And to quote u/girlwithabike

    I think they are intertwined. Respect is maybe the way in which we demonstrate trust? I'm not entirely sure except that they are definitely tangled together. To me, they are pretty similar and the ways I would demonstrate either is very similar. What is the different really between "I trust you to make this decision" or "I respect your decision". If there is a finer distinction between the two in the male brain then I don't know.

    I'll answer based on my understanding of the concepts and their distinctions.

    There are many degrees of respect. When I'm walking on the sidewalk and I encounter another person and we both step aside slightly to give more room for the other - that's out of respect. However, this cannot be compared to the respect I have for my teachers who have taught me so much wisdom. Why? Because they're different types of respect.

    The first is a basic respect for other human beings. Regardless of your virtues or lack thereof, you have intrinsic value as a human being who is created in the image of God. Therefore, I offer you respect.

    The second is an earned respect. Earned by your accomplishments. This respect will actualize itself in more than just giving you room on the sidewalk. I might actually go out of my way to do acts that show not just basic respect, but also reverence - which is a much deeper respect. However, even in this case, there's me, you and I respect you. I'm in full existence within this interaction.

    Enter trust. Trust goes even deeper. Trust is when I respect you so much that I trust in you. I therefore can set aside my own thoughts, feelings and conclusions and trust in yours! It's a type of respect that runs so deep, I'm willing to set myself and my existence aside (at least momentarily) in favor of your will, desire, leadership, decision or whatever.

    Makes sense?

    [–]durtykneesEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (9 children)

    It's a type of respect that runs so deep, I'm willing to set myself and my existence aside (at least momentarily) in favor of your will, desire, leadership, decision or whatever.

    So.. with complete trust, you're good to go for everything else, including respect. (?)

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (8 children)

    Excellent question!

    The short answer is no, not necessarily. There's something in "basic respect" that "complete trust" doesn't have. That despite being your full version of self (which naturally doesn't care much about anyone other than your own self), you are still respectful towards the other!

    When you set your own self aside, it's as if your "self" is overwhelmed by his being. Or that your self is null before his. (Precise wording is escaping me here, I hope my point is still clear). What happens when he goes to work and you go to the store? Suddenly you begin to sense your own self! What then? If you don't also have the basic respect, you'll begin to feel disrespect for submitting to him an hour earlier. This feeling of disrespect will then translate into actual disrespect later on.

    [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 4 points5 points  (4 children)

    What then?

    <Own self looks around store, realizes no husband is there exerting control, buys ALL the shiny things>

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (3 children)

    <Own self looks around store, realizes no husband is there exerting control, buys ALL the shiny things>

    Ha! Lol!

    I know, because RPW is all about women submitting to their controlling masters!

    [–]durtykneesEndorsed Contributor 3 points4 points  (2 children)

    submitting to their controlling masters!

    If a "master" has to work on having "control", he's doing it wrong --- as ridiculous as mindless submission, imo.

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    If a "master" has to work on having "control", he's doing it wrong --- as ridiculous as mindless submission, imo.

    That comment was tongue in cheek 🤓

    [–]durtykneesEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    I know :p Just thought it needs to be said, because "controlling" is often conflated with "frame", and then there's the "more submissive than thou" types. Kittens would cry.

    [–]durtykneesEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (2 children)

    Suddenly you begin to sense your own self!

    This is such an alien concept to me lol

    My world doesn't revolve around him, but I resonate with him (if that makes sense). We've become very much alike, after all this time together, that we're somewhat an extension of each other.

    I've always thought this was normal/ typical for long term couples who are a good fit for each other, because that's what I've observed, but that's just my anecdote.

    If you don't also have the basic respect, you'll begin to feel disrespect for submitting to him an hour earlier. This feeling of disrespect will then translate into actual disrespect later on.

    I'm so confused how this even works, but I'll take your word for it, that this is "normal" :p

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    I think I may have to write a post explaining the thought.

    Of course you're always your own self! Point is, when you actively trust you're setting your self on the side. This is what you're doing consciously by trusting him.

    Then, when you're engaged with something else, you aren't setting yourself on the side. Thus, your sense of self comes out again.

    When that happens, if you trusted but didn't have basic respect, the trust can turn to disrespect because "why am I trusting someone who I don't even respect?" It can then turn to resentment and other nasty things.

    It's true that this may be in your head, but it's almost guaranteed to leak out eventually.

    I hope this is clearer.

    [–]durtykneesEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Of course you're always your own self!

    Nah, I got assimilated, but this isn't about me :p

    when you actively trust you're setting your self on the side

    This implies a lack of "harmony" that necessitates setting aside of "self" to trust.

    So what you're saying is without harmony, you need deference ("basic respect").

    This implies believing that the person taking the lead is someone to look up to.

    But it still goes back to "trust", doesn't it?

    Why would someone respect a person they don't trust (in the context of a romantic relationship)? :p

    [–]Shaela90 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    Thank you very much for this post! It couldn't have come at a better time.

    I bought the book today, after seeing your post and read the second chapter with pen and paper in hand, taking notes. I've decided I don't want to give up on my last relationship and I've been reading everything I could find.

    After following your posts and comments, I generally like and trust advice coming from you and I must say I am amazed at how articulate the book is and how much sense it makes. And I'm ashamed at how many mistakes I made in my relationship without even realizing. I'm sure I'll have a notebook full of advice, reminders and strategy by the time I finish it.

    [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    I'm glad that it was timely!!

    I had start to correct a lot of my mistakes prior to this book but for me it really snapped everything into place. I've made all the mistakes too so I never speak from a pulpit.

    In a bit of irony I actually snapped at my husband while I was writing this post. Oops!

    FWIW I also like First Kill All the Marriage Counselors (Laura Doyle) much much better than The Surrendered Wife if you are a read-anything-you-get-your-hands-on sort of girl.

    Good luck rescuing (reviving? saving?) your relationship!!

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Hugely helpful post, thank you so much for posting.

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    The two biggest things I got out of this chapter was don’t humiliate your husband in public and don’t disrespect him.

    [–]brockliz 3 points4 points  (3 children)

    Could just listen to Kendrick Lamar “I’d rather you trust me than to love me” then read this chapter ;)

    [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

    That certainly would have taken a lot less time :-P

    [–]brockliz 3 points4 points  (1 child)

    In all seriousness keep posting em! I was trying to find more on YouTube but only found chapter 1. I’m intrigued if she’s got anything juicy

    [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Will do!

    [–]queandai 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    I would like to associate your advice with one fact found in ancient India and now taught at some of the Buddhist areas in Asia.

    The Seven Wives

    1. The destructive-wife (“troublesome-wife” and “slayer-wife”) – she is described as pitiless, fond of other men and neglectful, even contemptuous, of her husband;
    2. The thievish-wife (“robber-wife”) – she squanders the family wealth and is dishonest with her husband, especially as regards money;
    3. The mistress-wife (“lordly-wife”, “master-wife” and “tyrant-wife”) – she is shrewish, rude and coarsely-spoken when it suits her, lazy and domineering.

    4. The motherly-wife – she treats her husband like her son in every way, being compassionate and kind, as well as caring responsibly after his wealth;

    5. The sisterly-wife – she defers to her husband as she would her older brother. She is modest and is obedient to her husband and wishes to please him in every way;

    6. The friend-wife (“intimate friend”, “companion-wife”) – she loves her husband as he is her best friend; through friendship and love she is devoted to him;

    7. The slave-wife (“slave-like wife”, “handmaid-wife” and “maid-wife”) – she is patient, unangered, and submits to his will. She obediently receives physical punishment whenever her husband so desires to deliver it, and is unquestionably submissive to him.

    The 1,2,3 wives are considered bad and 4,5,6,7 wives are considered good. The interesting thing is you could have a choice among the good four wives. The freedom of selection.

    [–][deleted]  (19 children)

    [removed]

    [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 2 points3 points  (18 children)

    How does it work in your marriage?

    [–]pinkalligator333 0 points1 point  (17 children)

    Don’t have one... but anecdotally I’ve seen when a guys can’t be trusted to lead the helm with a fair hand. Also it can be argued that humans are inherently flawed.

    [–]Guywithgirlwithabike2 Stars 3 points4 points  (16 children)

    How old are you, 19 or 20?

    Because it shows.

    Have you never had a job, played a sport, or taken a class in your life?

    Because in any of those situations you would be suspending your criticism and deferring to the wisdom, knowledge, and judgement of a superior. This is the principal process by which we grow as individuals.

    You don't sound particularly mature, so it's doubtful you have a concrete, practical life plan. You should consider lurking here regularly. The women on this board are in the process of improving themselves and developing clear goals for their lives, and discuss ideas to that end. That is a worthwhile endeavor in and of itself, regardless of what ill-conceived relationship structure your womyns studies adjunct professor convinces you to attempt.

    [–]pinkalligator333 1 point2 points  (15 children)

    I’m not following any woman’s studies class. Yes I’m immature, but I’m willing to learn. Hence the question.

    I understand the evolutionary background trp adheres to. A dominant male, a submissive female. Only issue is, humans are self aware. A female questions her submissiveness in the grand scheme of things, and either settles into it, fights against it or watches from a distance. I’ve been watching from a distance. I don’t hate males because of who they are and I understand there are intrinsic differences between the genders. Now I’m asking: why trust a flawed human to steer the ship? Why not be their equal so you are prepared for when they take a flawed direction?

    Flawed superior maybe. They aren’t godlike. If a coach tells me to take steroids to improve my game, I’m not going to suspend my judgement.

    [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

    Are you not also flawed? At some point you must engage in life and take risks. Your issue is a lack of trust.

    You are making the same error that many women make in discussions of submission. First, you assume that you will always know best and that your opinions will lead to the best course of action because they are your opinions. Even if you are wrong, at least you made a decision and you are wrong (and you don't really think you will be wrong). You won't look foolish for following someone who made an error.

    Second, you don't trust yourself to properly vet a man. A lot of women are garbage at vetting. Young women are more likely to follow their feelz over any sort of rational though and if you look at those relationship then of course you aren't going to see good things. There is a learning curve to dating and there is a process of brain development that continues into your 20s. If you trusted yourself more, you would look at your own strengths and weaknesses and seek out a man who is strong where you are weak. You have to find a man who is good enough to lead you.

    I trust my husband (he is the one who responded to you at my request so that I could finish up my late meeting at work and then go home and relax). He knows how I think because we talk all the time. He knows my preferences, the things I hate, the areas I'm weak and the areas I'm strong. I know the same of him.

    I am pretty damned self sufficient when I want to be. If he died tomorrow, I'd make my way in the world as just me. The key though is that relationships aren't just you. There are at least two people involved. If you want a direction for the relationship, it should be one vision of your life together otherwise it will meander along and potentially stagnate.

    When there is a decision to be made, and each of you has different opinions, who decides? Ultimately, someone has to take a backseat and someone has to make the choice and live with the consequences. I married a man whose judgement I trust as well as I trust my own. He has fields of knowledge beyond mine so his decisions are often different. That doesn't mean that he says "this is the way it is, full stop". We talk about things. When we touch on an area where I have more knowledge than he does, I tell him what I know. When I disagree, I tell him why and let him weigh that in as well.

    I see that you are an INTP, I am as well. My husband is an INTJ and his plans stretch across our lifetime. I'm excellent at short term stuff but I often lack follow through. If we followed my vision, we'd accomplish much less over our lifetimes.

    I don't feel unequal to him. I feel that his strengths make him much better at guiding us. I don't feel that my opinions don't count. I don't feel that I have to go against my reason or my feelings on anything. He has always taken these things into consideration. I trust myself enough to defer to him. I know that deference does not mean that I've turned off my brain and stopped functioning as a full person in the world. If he came home and told me that he was cashing out our savings and becoming a drug kingpin - I'd leave. At that point he would no longer be properly steering the ship and there is no reason to drown with him.

    Deference, respect, vulnerability...these are all relationship strategies and at least in part, conscious decisions. These things play to what men desire in women. You can avoid showing vulnerability, you can lead, there are relationships where this can work. The survey's in this book showed that about 75% of men feel the way that she describes in most cases. That means there are potentially men out there who do not need respect to be demonstrated. I don't know who those men are or what they look like in the real world.

    Sexual strategy tells you to play the odds. If most men, particularly the higher value ones, need to be respected, then you demonstrate respect. Maybe this is difficult because you feel vulnerable doing it, but high risk equals high reward. I'll risk being vulnerable for the man I have. I chose well and he's worth it.

    You have to learn to choose well and trust your choice.

    [–]pinkalligator333 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    I see. Yes, I like INTJs as well. They are snarky yet a trove of deep insight.

    Truthfully, I don't trust many people. Maybe as an INTP you can understand. I don't relate to many people at a similar abstract level. So I flounder. Of course I tell myself one day I will find a guy who compliments me. There are billions out there. I just have to stop drawing on past experiences with verbal abuse from various guys when making a decision to trust a new guy. This is very hard as I do not want to make a fool of myself and wish to invest myself carefully in who i choose.

    I guess I just cringe at the thought of submission. It makes me think of.. religion, which I hate. Like treating a guy like he's God or something. So there are issues there as well.

    In short, somebody will have to make an amazing impression on me before I give them an ounce of control. And even then, I will hold onto my cards, just in case.

    [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    I see. Yes, I like INTJs as well. They are snarky yet a trove of deep insight.

    I did not know a thing about the MBTI until a year or two ago. It's not scientifically rigorous and everyone on the internet claims to be INTJ/INTP/INFJ from what I've seen. I therefore, do not give it any sort of merit when vetting a man. I chose my husband for a myriad of reasons but personality type was not one of them. I used it because I see that it's important to you and I thought it would help us to speak the same language. I see below however, that you don't understand the concept of a 'hamster' which leads me to believe that you are not familiar with any of our sidebar or theory so I question my choice to meet you halfway.

    Truthfully, I don't trust many people. Maybe as an INTP you can understand.

    No, I have a handful of select friends who I trust with my life. These are relationships that have developed over my lifetime and several of them are friends from high school. I trust people who I have determined to be deserving of my trust....and then I give it to them. Holding back forever only leaves you isolated.

    I don't relate to many people at a similar abstract level. So I flounder.

    You have difficulty connecting with people and you are making excuses. Learn to talk to people who lead with emotion, they have something to offer you to. My very best adult friend is my complete opposite in this regard. I love and value her dearly.

    Of course I tell myself one day I will find a guy who compliments me.

    Telling yourself is useless. You have to develop yourself into a person that the type of man you want will want to be with. Otherwise it's just fantasy.

    This is very hard as I do not want to make a fool of myself and wish to invest myself carefully in who i choose.

    Vetting Part 1 there are two more parts on the sidebar.

    I guess I just cringe at the thought of submission. It makes me think of.. religion, which I hate. Like treating a guy like he's God or something. So there are issues there as well.

    That's all in the way you think about it. I have never thought of submission like religion. If you think it means totally giving yourself up then there is not a sufficient self there. If you are afraid that deferring to another person means you will lose yourself, then you need to develop your sense of self better. Submissive Behavior as Strategy

    In short, somebody will have to make an amazing impression on me before I give them an ounce of control. And even then, I will hold onto my cards, just in case.

    Unlikely to happen. A man who is good enough to make this impression will get quickly fed up with you being closed off or holding all the cards. Strong impressive men do not like to give up their freedom easily. If you are holding all the card, that implies that he is holding no cards. Bad set up for a healthy relationship. Impossible set up for a high value man.

    What do you bring to the table? Why do you deserve an amazing man? These are rhetorical questions but should frame your self development for dating.

    [–]Guywithgirlwithabike2 Stars 1 point2 points  (11 children)

    "Also it can be argued that all humans are inherently flawed"

    I think this is where the core of your problems lie. This is a facile argument that is often latched onto by those that are young, immature, and lacking in self-assurance. There are two main problems with it:

    The first is that it can be used as an argument against any human endeavor. It contains absolutely no insight into any problem you could possibly be dealing with. Do you realize that humans had achieved permanent residency in outer space less than a century after the first successful airplane flight? That's not the sort of achievement you would expect from "inherently flawed" creatures. Clearly, we are capable as individuals and as a species of overcoming that tragic limitation. Some people are more capable of it than others, and are very likely more capable of it than you. It is in your best interest to learn to recognize those individuals, and heed their advice.

    The second problem is that your counterargument doesn't grant you any guidance as to a proper course of action. It can only be used to negate a course of action. I've known people that share your counterargument like it was their life mantra. They are sad people, who have not grown or matured at all since adopting that view. I know men (using the term very loosely here) that are the same incomplete people pushing 40 that they were at 18. You don't want to have their lives.

    Are you everything you could possibly be, or have you not lived up to your full potential as a human being? In all likelihood you have fallen fall short of your own ideals countless times in your life. No matter how much you have told yourself to be better, you haven't listened and haven't improved. You are a terrible boss, and an even worse employee.

    So what's the worst that could come from following someone else's lead for a while?

    It might just work out for you.

    [–]pinkalligator333 1 point2 points  (10 children)

    By flawed i meant morally, but yes, flaws can be seen in any human endeavor. Look how many tries and lives lost it took to make space travel a reality.

    I'm not a bad employee. I follow my boss's instructions as long as they don't go against my personal values. I'm not going to change for anybody, but I can follow a course of action. I understand how business heirarchy works.

    You have some kind of bias against me that I am young and therefore buying into a bunch of ideologies without thinking them through first. I follow people when it benefits me, but nobody will be leading me to do anything if I don't want them to. If I am in a relationship with a guy and he wants me to "submit" to him by using less crude jokes, the joke is on him. I will find somebody who is closer to my ideal.

    What's the harm in following someone else's lead? Oh, I don't know, they could end up controlling every aspect of my life because I've grown complacent. I had a very controlling "friend" and I know how easy it is for me to just keep taking the path of less resistance. A guy will not be replacing this "friend" in giving me a guide to follow. It has taken me a long time to love myself and gain my independence from various sources. I will not be giving over my independence again to follow someone else's "better" directions, in terms of a personal relationship.

    You and I have different personality types, and we are in different places in our lives. What may work for other women who read this message will not work for me.

    [–]Guywithgirlwithabike2 Stars 1 point2 points  (9 children)

    I wasn't suggesting you were a bad employee at your actual job; it was a metaphor.

    It seems like you've missed the point of every comment made thus far. That's largely irrelevant though, as it will only impact your life.

    You may think you're unique and different, but you're not. Almost no one is. While we may have different personality types, you and my wife do not - as she notes further up in the thread. As headstrong as she is, she still manages to follow my lead, and is happier for it. Most people are unhappy in their relationships. Somehow, the overwhelming majority of people expressing contentment in their marriages are either red-pilled or adhere to some traditional model. Perhaps there's something to that.

    Traditions are solutions to problems which we had forgotten existed.

    [–]pinkalligator333 1 point2 points  (8 children)

    Right, it really helps that she is similar to me. I admit I do get a little devils advocate about things, but you have made some generalizations, such as with the "lapsing judgement in order to follow others". My parents have told me to do things that I knew were bad for me. I did not follow, and benefited from my own insight.

    I am not headstrong to the point where I cannot see clearly. I understand a tug of power in a relationship is inevitable if somebody does not "wear the pants". I understand that most males are genetically predisposed to lead.

    I guess the answer is fervent communication or no dice.

    I would add that there are several poisonous traditions, such as the whale hunting that is done in Norway.

    Edit: If no one is unique and different, then why are some personality types less common than others?

    [–]Guywithgirlwithabike2 Stars 0 points1 point  (7 children)

    Right, I always forget how strong an argument against traditional marriage can be found in Norwegian whale hunting. If I roll my eyes any harder I could end up detaching a retina.

    "If no one is unique and different, then why are some personality types less common than others?"

    You could have simplified your response to "why are there different personality types at all?" or "why aren't we all identical clones?"

    There are ways in which all people are unique - every person in the USA has a different Social Security Number, for instance - however, these differences are dwarfed by the multitude of our similarities. We are all born with the same number of limbs, breathing oxygen, with approximately equal lifespans, etc.

    RP philosophy is based on forming an understanding of the world (and a sustainable path through it) using scientifically-determined human universals as a starting point.

    One such example is the difference between male and female infidelity, which stems from the different biological imperatives we face. Because men can mate with many women simultaneously, attraction to one woman is generally independent of and in addition to another woman. Because women have a nine-month gestation period followed by several years of intense vulnerability, attraction to a new man detracts from attraction to a current mate, often to the point of total exclusion. This is the biological origin of female hypergamy.

    You probably think this is unfair to women - that's a pretty common view among young (and often bitter) women. But of course you would think that, coming from your point of view. Many men find different aspects of that reality unfair to men - understandably, and also from their point of view. No amount of bitching on either side is going to change that biological reality, and attempts to socially engineer around it will inevitably result in emotionally stunted, pathological people creating an even worse status quo. Mother Nature doesn't give a crap about what you or anyone else considers "fair".

    Similarly, there are many universals regarding male and female emotion. The topic of this (well-researched) post is an examination of some of the consequences of those universals when applied to the circumstances found in your typical heterosexual romantic relationship.

    You may think yourself the snowiest of flakes - complete with the Chinese character tattoo to prove it - but the ways in which your romantic entanglements will succeed or fail are going to bear a startling resemblance to every other male-female pairing since the beginning of time.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [removed]

    [–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[M] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    If you don't like female attention, you should not be in the women's sub seeking it out and insulting the men who do. Banned.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    I might have to add this book and the version of it for men to my overwhelming collection of unread books. I collect any non-fiction book that think could offer new insight into romantic relationships. Obviously I haven't read this book, but so far from what I've read, I consider the "holy trinity" of romance advice books to be The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman, The Surrendered Wife by Laura Doyle, and Hold Me Tight by Sue Johnson.

    I agree that men equate respect with love, but I also think we live in a climate where a lot of men wouldn't dare ask women for respect, because the idea of a woman respecting a man has possibly become more popular where it is fear-driven respect, rather than love-driven respect, because of the modern feminist narrative of abuse being male-centric.

    This is a problem with men practicing frame in the sense of stonewalling or being silent, or practicing "dread game", though they may have no other option that they know of, they are settling for fear-driven respect, and it damages the emotional connection and depth or intimacy of that relationship. Those kinds of tactics may have been the only way for them to have a sexual relationship with that woman in the first place, but the whole foundation of the relationship is less vulnerable and less strong. So I think with most women not seeing this connection between respect and love for men, its putting a lot of men in a lose-lose situation between choosing either a mostly negative emotional roller-coaster or extreme loneliness, and the negative isolation that comes from excessive stoicism usually gets added to either choice as well.

    This also might be a "just get it" thing for men towards other men and women, in the same way that male confidence arguably is for women. Men however, "just get it" between each other, because they have male brains. This in-group bias by both genders, and the projection of it onto the other gender is something we need to understand better and teach to everyone. I'm procrastinating playing video games to comment which I was going to do to procrastinate reading, so I'm not sure if that's self-improvement, or still laziness. Great article though. =)

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    Excellent comment!

    I think this comment deserves a star u/pearlsandstilettos

    [–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    You got it!!

    [–]gretamine -2 points-1 points  (4 children)

    I'm surprised at this post. For a healthy relationship you need both love and respect. For both parties involved. There is no compromise on those basic needs.

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (3 children)

    For a healthy relationship you need both love and respect.

    True, but which is a primary need and which is a secondary need?

    Or, which is primary in relation to the other even though they're both important needs?

    Men and women differ here.

    [–]gretamine 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    In your opinion, anyway.

    [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor[S] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

    It's not really that it's u/loneliness-inc's opinion. It's echoed by the research done in this book.

    At no point was the author suggesting that women should respect their SOs instead of loving them. She discovered that respect is a primary way that men feel/recognize love.

    So if you aren't respecting him then you aren't loving him the way he needs to feel love. By the same token, if a man was respectful to a woman but not comforting and didn't take care of her, she's unlikely to feel loved.

    Men and women view the world differently. It's not that you don't need respect and love in a healthy relationship, you need to make sure that you are leading with the right feelings. With men, lead with respect.

    The parts about men preferring to feel unloved rather than disrespected were survey questions and meant to illustrate how important respect is to men. If they had to choose, they would choose respect. It's not saying that this is the way we should approach relationships, it's saying that about 3/4 of men feel that respect is non-negotiable.

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    The parts about men preferring to feel unloved rather than disrespected were survey questions and meant to illustrate how important respect is to men. If they had to choose, they would choose respect. It's not saying that this is the way we should approach relationships, it's saying that about 3/4 of men feel that respect is non-negotiable.

    This distinction is very important. I thought it was obvious, but obviously it seems to have been lost on some people....