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RP THEORYPonderings on "Maturity" (self.RedPillWomen)

submitted by FleetingWishEndorsed Contributor

We are all familiar with The Red Pill notion that "women don't mature past the age of 18" and "women are the most mature teenagers in the room". I've been thinking a lot about these things lately due to some TRP skeptics asking questions like "do you really believe women are immature?" These women want to be thought of as "mature" and are insulted by the thought of being anything otherwise. After all if you’re not "mature" you are lumped into the "little kids" category, and that's degrading. Or is it?

This illusive want for maturity always left me a little uneasy, because I felt like people were asking this question without even understanding what it means to be "mature". I asked myself what is "maturity", how does someone know if they have it, how does one gain it, and what is its function?

Then I came across this post:

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/1k0izp/what_is_it_like_for_a_man_to_have_to_hidesuppress/cbk64sr?context=3

After I read this, I realized something, being mature isn't a rite of passage, it's not something that happens to you as you get older, because you are older, but rather it's something you gain by being strong when you have to, because you have to. It's something that happens to you when you have to struggle against real adversity. But, I also realized it's not necessarily a thing worth striving for.

I composed a thought experiment about a fictitious child. This child is no older than 10 years old, but both his parents are dead. He has no access to health care, or any other federal aid, and he is the sole provider of his baby brother, who is only 2 years old and can't fend for himself. He does everything in his power to care for his brother, from begging, to digging through garbage, even giving his little brother food when it means skipping a meal himself. Even so his baby brother dies in his hands, either due to malnourishment, or disease, it's irrelevant, the little brother dies.

There is a reason why this fictitious story is sad, because it is forcing a child into a position of maturity, when he shouldn't have to be. A child assuming a real position that an adult would normally have to assume is a sad story because we want to hold onto that youth and innocence that the child possesses. We don't want to burden him with the "maturity of adulthood". This thought experiment made me realize that not only can lack of maturity be a good thing, it's actually a gift men give us. Men want to protect us from maturity, the same way society wants to protect that child from maturity.

As we all know, men have a naturally inclination to protect us. But, now I've realized that under that "umbrella of protection" men also protect us from the burden of having to be mature. Reading the post (above), I realized when a man chooses to be strong and push down his emotions, he does it so that we don't have to. When he becomes mature, jaded, and cynical, he does it so that we can maintain our innocence, youth, and liveliness. At the end of the day someone has to be able to step up and deal with it when shit really goes down, someone has to be able to put aside their fears and fight if need be. Men do this so that we don't have to. They are protecting us, and not because we are "the weaker sex", but because they don't want to have to burden us with that. That's what maturity actually is, it's a burden.

When we maintain our innocence, they feel like they've been successful because they've done their role "as men" to protect us. “Immaturity” isn’t an insult, it’s a gift. Men give us so much, and all they ask in return is that we respect them, and share that youthful vitality with them so that, once and a while, they can remember what it's like to be a kid too.


[–][deleted] 56 points57 points  (0 children)

Man here. This is the best post and the only one I've felt the need to comment on in my six months of reading TRP material both on here and TRP. It put into words something that I've been feeling but couldn't communicate to my LTR because I couldn't quite find the words for it nor understand it.

We re in a pretty much redpill relationship, and she knows it. She doesn't work, but that's how we both like it. I feel like she sometimes has trouble understanding that the reason I want her home doing wht she does in the home is that it makes me more attracted to her, and whether she realizes it or not, she is most definitely happier with me taking care of everything than she was when she was working.

[–]HumanSockPuppetEndorsed Contributor 51 points52 points  (5 children)

I agree 100%. And I would add this to it as well:

Men shield women from having to become mature because the kind of woman we are attracted to is a woman with a child-like playfulness and sense of wonder. We want to preserve that quality in women.

A woman untainted by the stresses of the harsh universe is one who can help us relax. She is a woman who can be there to bring joy, ease, and playful levity back into our lives after we've spent a long day facing the cruel reality of nature.

It's mutually beneficial.

[–]justcurious12345 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Managing stress is a good coping skill that a person gets as part of maturity. Why do you think that playfulness and wonder can't be something that an adult experiences?

[–]HumanSockPuppetEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Why do you think that playfulness and wonder can't be something that an adult experiences?

How did you get that from what I wrote?

[–]justcurious12345 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Immaturity = playfulness and wonder, from what you wrote. The taint of stress makes it so someone can't be playful.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well said, I was filled with warmth. No bullshit.

[–]mctoasterson 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I'm going to need to refer to this post later.

Like many facets of TRP, I initially wanted to object but then found that it explained many things I cannot deny.

[–]ChaoticParadox 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This is an excellent post.

[–]jakethesnake76 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This post made me subscribe because it is so insightful .

[–]crankypants15 4 points5 points  (10 children)

Guy here. You could really use some gender flair here. :)

As we all know, men have a naturally inclination to protect us. But, now I've realized that under that "umbrella of protection" men also protect us from the burden of having to be mature.

I agree, and I blame a lot of the parents for not teaching their daughters, and sons, maturity. But I think the daughters are more affected by this.

At the end of the day someone has to be able to step up and deal with it when shit really goes down, someone has to be able to put aside their fears and fight if need be. Men do this so that we don't have to.

I would simply like to add that, in general, men are less emotional, and are VERY pressured to learn how to ignore their emotions, and get the job done. This is a cultural expectation, and a biological ability, as a trend. We can do it, therefore we do. The problems occur when there is an imbalance. Both daughters and sons must be taught how to run a household, how to manage finances, and last but not least, how to date and have a healthy relationship. Many parents lack in all of these. (Seriously, you haven't met the people I have.)

[–]FleetingWishEndorsed Contributor[S] 1 point2 points  (9 children)

You could really use some gender flair here

I think the "Endorsed Contributer" tag is only given to women on this sub. Plus, I like being an "Endorsed Contributer", so I'm gonna keep it, it makes me feel like a VIP. =)

In general, men are less emotional, and are VERY pressured to learn how to ignore their emotions, and get the job done. This is a cultural expectation, and a biological ability.

I agree that there is this pressure on men to be this way, but I think the role ends up falling on the males shoulders because society wants to protect women from it being on their shoulders.

[–]crankypants15 -1 points0 points  (8 children)

but I think the role ends up falling on the males shoulders because society wants to protect women from it being on their shoulders.

...because the average woman would crack under pressure, not that that makes them weaker or less valuable. I think we are in agreement, we are just saying it differently. lol.

[–]FleetingWishEndorsed Contributor[S] 2 points3 points  (7 children)

Because the average woman would crack under pressure

I think we are encountering a basic nature versus nurture question. Do women crack under pressure because they are not given the pressure to do otherwise (nurture), or do women crack under pressure because they don't have the genetic capability to do otherwise (nature)? Either way the result comes out the same, they do crack under pressure, and they are not expected to do otherwise.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

heheh, I think we're made for certain things, and crack under pressure when made to devote our life to things we don't love. My dad cracked under pressure because of toddler-related stuff, mom cracked due to work (they got better). It all makes sense.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's not to say my dad didn't love me when I was small. But I think men might be somewhat scared of small babies. Afraid they'll break, get sick, or be incomprehensible to their logical minds...

[–]crankypants15 0 points1 point  (4 children)

I think it's both nature and nurture. Life is not so simple that it would be just one or the other. I think a lot of women COULD be strong and not crack under pressure, if they were trained like men, but then I can't make plans based on "woulda coulda", I have to deal with the here and now.

I have personally seen some women who were strong emotionally, creative, persistent, and overall great people, but they are pretty rare in my area. (I've lived in the same state my whole life but in several different cities.)

[–]FleetingWishEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I have personally seen some women who were strong emotionally, creative, persistent, and overall great people

These are woman who excel at being feminine women, but are not necessarily more "mature".

[–]crankypants15 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Now now. Let's not make assumptions.

  1. I've met 2 women who told me they were molested at a young age but they refuse to let it define them. They seemed like pretty balanced people, and I was impressed they were not man-haters and were able to move on from this.
  2. I've met women in my job who were professional, and nice people, not hard-driving selfish bitches. I've also met a few professional bitches in the workplace. I just stayed away from them. lol.

As for them excelling at being feminine, I didn't really look for that.

I just don't want to come off as a woman-hater because that's not who I am. I have problems with the system, and feminists. Not all women.

[–]FleetingWishEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Hmmm, we're going deep into fuzzy gray territory rather than generalizations, but here it goes... I actually think women are capable of a certain amount of maturity. Like you mentioned, those were some rather "mature" women. One working definition of maturity that I've come up with "being able to put your own needs aside for the sake of others". A lot of women make the argument, for instance, that raising a child makes them mature or they are mature because they raised a child. Well, yes and no. You don't get maturity points for popping a baby out of your vagina. You don't get maturity points for a baby being around for 18 years. You don't get maturity points for leaving the father of your child. For instance, my own mother didn't have one ounce of maturity, and she was the worst kind of immature, the spoiled brat kind. But, I have a friend who is a new mother who is very mature about it, very caring and very loving. Now she's not mature in comparison to a man, but she is definitely mature compared to a lot of other women. When you start comparing women to one another (rather than men), you come to find that some can definitely be more mature than others, and even a very few amount of outliers can have as much maturity as a man. But those outliers are the "real" independent women, the ones who actually don't need men for anything, the type of women feminists want to be but won't ever achieve. Personally, I don't want to strive for that level of maturity, because I like needing men in my life.

[–]crankypants15 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Personally, I don't want to strive for that level of maturity, because I like needing men in my life.

And that's all fine. But people do need a minimum amount of maturity to make a LTR last. And they need to know how relationships work too. That helps a lot. As long as my SO is an asset, not a liability, I can deal with that, because I'm a strong man. It doesn't matter so much HOW she's an asset, it matters that she's an asset to the relationship.

I agree with you again. lol.

[–]FRSTKZ 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I composed a thought experiment about a fictitious child.

If you want to see an example of this then check out Grave of Fireflies. It is one of the saddest movies I have seen. Fits your scenario.

[–]FleetingWishEndorsed Contributor[S] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Well, I know real examples of this happen in 3rd world countries, but rather than pick a specific example, I went with the general concept.

Haven't seen that movie yet, I've heard it's good, and it's on my list.

[–]margerym 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I know real examples of this happens in 3rd world countries

Real examples happen right here in the US. Most aren't quite as dramatic but my husband and I, for example, are those kids that raised their parents, had to fend for themselves, and in my case raised my younger sister. Look at kids of the mentally ill and drug addicts and you'll find cases of kids that had to mature really fast.

[–]SupALupRT 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Holy shit. Touched.

[–]TempestTcup 5 points6 points  (3 children)

This really makes a lot of sense. I just referred to my husband's protection as his "bubble of protection" yesterday and it is. He makes decisions sometimes that confuse me until I realize that he is just doing his job as my husband. I used to object when he "babied" me.

[–]FleetingWishEndorsed Contributor[S] 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Well, what I didn't mention in my posts was that some of the drawbacks of being "less mature" is that we don't have the experience and the real world knowledge to always make the best decisions (especially since we have a tendency to be more emotional than logical due to that immaturity and hormones). Part of respecting your husband/SO means you respect the fact that he has more experience than you, and is more capable of making decisions due to that added maturity. I probably don't need to explain that too much though, since we're all RPW, and understand that.

[–]TempestTcup 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hahaha, I have plenty of "maturity" from back before TRP; I could use a little less!

[–]Drvibe 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Explains so much.......wow......

[–]sugarcrushEndorsed Contributor 7 points8 points  (4 children)

Wow, that's a really unique perspective on the topic! I'll have to consider this more.

I tend to think that women are not socially encouraged or required to mature between 18, not that it's biologically impossible for us. Despite the fact that our brains develop until 25, we aren't really called upon to use that continued maturity. Think about it- most girls leave daddy's house at 18, go into the extended adolescence of college, and then (if you are somewhat attractive) move in with one of the first serious boyfriends and get married shortly after. Most girls I know hardly ever had to pay for their own bills or make sacrifices like not going out on the weekend because they have to work Saturday morning and then have a test to study for all Sunday. They just go from parents babying them to husband babying them, never using skills like impulse control, forethought, etc. No wonder most women don't develop maturity when they never have to practice it!

It's sad to me, really, which is why it would be nice to think of immaturity as a gift. I've had to be responsible for myself since 18, so I just find it annoying. Maybe I'll start looking at it in a kinder light like you said. I know I could probably stand to loosen up a bit!

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[deleted]

    [–]project2501a 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    How does one "help" (if that is the right word) a girl/woman to reach that point? Other than being in an alpha frame. Are there some things a woman will look for?

    [–]Traz_Onmale 3 points4 points  (1 child)

    Aren't women forced to be mature when they have to take care of children though? Negating their own wishes of how to spend time and energy and spend it on their child instead. I'd say this caused selection pressure on maturity in women.

    [–]margerym 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Absolutely, but I don't think in the same way men are. If we measure maturity based on how, why, and when men mature we aren't on the same level.

    [–]dichloroethane 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Well then, a man who wants a mature girl but not a girl with baggage has no idea what he wants.

    Calling immaturity a gift is accurate though I'm not so sure it's one every man is actually looking to give.

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

    [removed]

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    you may want to look into what the subs youre commenting on believe before commenting, here is a good example from our parent reddit theredpill's sidebar

    http://no-maam.blogspot.fr/2012/06/woman-most-responsible-teenager-in.html

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

    [removed]

    [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

    why, is there only one correct way women think?

    [–]WhisperTRP Founder 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Yes, otherwise they aren't true scotswomen.

    [–]BakerofpieEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    This is a very interesting way of looking at it. At first I was a little bothered because if maturity is based on the hardship you have faced then I am about 20 times more "mature" than my husband. But I thought about it, and all of the hard work I did to take care of myself and my family members when there was no one else to do it feels like I was a whole different person. My husband has lifted so many burdens from me and allowed me to be playful and almost get the childhood I never got to have. Of course I don't let him take the full brunt of all stress in our lives, but I now have more of a supporting role and I am so thankful for it.

    [–]DoxasticPoo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Man here.

    First off, great awareness and excellent thought experiment.

    When I went through the thought experiment, here's what came to mind.

    Responsibility. A kid that age shouldn't have to be or feel responsible for his younger brother because, as adults, we know he's not 100% capable of being responsible. Yet now he has to. And we know he will likely fail despite it not being his fault.

    So when you talk about men being mature so women don't have to, I think about responsibility. And I think about all the times an ex drove me crazy because she wouldn't take responsibility for her actions.

    But men have taken on responsibility so women don't have to. And as a beta, that's not something I noticed.

    And you may ask, "Why...? Why would men do that?"

    For the same reason we do all the things we do for others (woman, our children, neighbors, society...)

    Because we are men. We have an innate sense of love, honor, pride, leadership, that drive us to deal with the difficult.

    And if you'll humor me for a moment, I have a thought experiment for you.

    Imagine we're 50,000 years in the past, observing a tribe of 4 people (2 men, 2 women).

    The two men go off into the woods to hunt because the woman are more valuable and they can't risk a jaguar getting to them. And let's say each man catches 1 rabbit while they're out there. Just enough to feed one person.

    The man who loves his wife will bring that rabbit back out of the woods for her. The man who doesn't will stay in the woods and eat.

    Who procreates?

    Men have, through evolution, developed a deep sense of love, community, leadership, empathy, responsibility... and most relevant to this thread, maturity... because those are the men who went into the woods and came back out.

    [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

    Man here and I might just have a bad case of oneitis.