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THEORYSubmissive Behaviour as Strategy (self.RedPillWomen)

submitted by WhisperTRP Founder

Any woman with a triple digit IQ who devotes an hour or so to scanning the main redpill subreddit will quickly realize a few things:

  • TRP deliberately cultivates a harsh and critical tone towards women in general.
  • TRP deliberately teaches dealing with women in a ruthless and self-interested fashion.
  • These are not the result of a raw outpouring of uncontrolled anger, but instead a deliberate instructional choice by TRP's leading voices.

While the men of TRP have no need for women to understand the "why" of this (TRP tactics work regardless), it is very for valuable for women to understand why this is so... it yields insight into their own best strategy.

The basic method of TRP is founded on the realization that mating between men and women is governed by the balance between two corresponding instincts:

  • Women instinctively submit to, defer to, and obey men.
  • Men instinctively protect and care for women.
  • Each of these instincts, when expressed proportionally, tends to provoke the corresponding response in the other.

When these two instincts are both strongly expressed, a win-win interaction inevitably takes place... the woman is not brutalized or casually discarded despite her complete vulnerability, because the man's own instinct to protect and care for her restrains him, and the man is not exploited and vampirically sucked dry, because of the woman's instinct to defer to him and place his desires ahead of her own.

However, these instincts are not always expressed in balance. A woman who is submissive to a man who feels no urge to take care of her, or a man who is protective of a woman who does not submit to him, will end up being harmed.

When we understand this, we can see the reasoning behind the "tone" of TRP. It is a deliberate tactic for training men to suppress their protective instinct, necessitated by an environment full of women who are not submissive.

It is from here that we can realize a profound tactical implication for women who understand this. If the teachers of TRP must work as hard as they do to suppress male protectiveness even of women who are not submissive, how hard can it be for a woman who IS to activate that same instinct?

This, in a nutshell, is why RPW teaches submissive behaviour. It has nothing to do with tradition. It is not a religious law, or a moral obligation. It is simply the best move for dealing with any man who isn't severely damaged (how to identify those is a subject for another day). This is why "drawing boundaries" with your man, or "negotiating" with him "from a position of strength" may sound safe, but is a very bad idea. It is the decision to engage in conflict with the sex that is built for conflict, while in that very act sacrificing an incredibly potent advocate who lives inside his own head, past all his defenses.

The basis of any strong RPW strategy for navigating the risks of the sexual marketplace involves cultivating the ability to evoke this instinct in men.

This does not simply begin and end with deference or obedience, but rather consists of a whole host of behaviours calculated to draw the protective instinct out. It is, however, the willingness to behave in a submissive fashion to begin with that allows a woman to access, learn, and experiment with such strategies.


[–]Flojtlasse 73 points74 points  (3 children)

Men aren't drawn to the obedience. They are being drawn to the respect. The most annoying thing in the world for a man is a women's pessimism.

Men are simple beings that want to relax and enjoy life, being negative will ruin the mood. The most attractive women are those with a positive outlook on life. Nothing makes a man more satisfied then having a positive wife.

[–]tempintheeastbayEndorsed Contributor 37 points38 points  (0 children)

"Men aren't drawn to the obedience. They are being drawn to the respect. "

That's a very good line.

[–]TheTyke 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I'd also say the idea of innocence and needing protection does inspire those feelings heavily in men too though. It does me, atleast.

The idea of a nurturing and kind female to protect, to me, is almost the definition of femininity.

[–]therewasguy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Men aren't drawn to the obedience. They are being drawn to the respect. The most annoying thing in the world for a man is a women's pessimism.

Men are simple beings that want to relax and enjoy life, being negative will ruin the mood. The most attractive women are those with a positive outlook on life. Nothing makes a man more satisfied then having a positive wife.

you see those illogical drama queen swings from time to time and they play victim of the man not being loving towards them

[–]g_e_m_anscombe 72 points73 points  (6 children)

Just one quick point: although I agree women should try to be submissive and supportive rather than negotiating with men from a point of dominance, this is not the same as “setting boundaries.” If a man violates your boundaries (be they sexual boundaries or saying certain things), you are within your right to reaffirm them and re-establish them. A man who loves a submissive woman will honor boundaries if she is explicit about them. Boundaries are non-negotiable, especially during the vetting process before you’ve selected your captain for life.

A woman who has no boundaries will often find herself in an abusive or toxic relationship. One of the things that I love about this sub is that when women come here describing relationships that veer on the abusive, people are very honest in pointing that out. So many people imagine that RPW equates to being a pushover or giving into dominant and oppressive men, but this sub demonstrates time and time again that that’s not the case. Being a RPW is, at heart, about being a good first mate. A good first mate is confident and collected in her own right, and will be clear with the captain when there’s a problem. Yet she will defer to his judgment when he proposes a solution.

[–]ragnarockette4 Stars 32 points33 points  (1 child)

This is why vetting is so important. When you find a great man you can be vulnerable and let go and feel 100% confident that your boundaries will be respected and that he will make decisions with your happiness in mind.

[–]lidlredridinghood 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It's so true. When I found a good captain, everything fell into place. It wasn't easy, but it made sense, and things have consistently improved sense then.

[–]Pie_021 16 points17 points  (0 children)

To put what you said in a nutshell, being a doormat and submissive are not the same.

[–]alexa_lamb 4 points5 points  (0 children)

So many people imagine that RPW equates to being a pushover or giving into dominant and oppressive men, but this sub demonstrates time and time again that that’s not the case.

Brilliantly stated.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[removed]

    [–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[M] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    What you want is not helpful to women in general and has no place here as advice.

    [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 22 points23 points  (16 children)

    Thank you for this! I've seen a few posts lately mentioning a RP "lifestyle". I rarely, if ever, engage with them because I can never quite understand what an RP Lifestyle would be.

    There is a strong trad-con element that runs through RPW but RPW isn't trad-con (until 6 months ago our life plan was no children ever and riding around on motorcycles on weekends). There are women who practice BDSM, but you can have that with having a shred of PR strategy in your life (Kinkiest friend I know also happens to be the most shrewish wife I've encountered). I personally favor marriage, but you can implement RP strategy and never get married. And no matter how well the metaphor may work, I don't think that simply calling your partner a "Captain" means a whole lot of anything, nor will you ever see me use it when I refer to my husband, which doesn't mean I'm not submissive to him.

    As a community we need to get back to understanding the 'why' and the 'how' and this post really clarifies the 'why'.

    [–]tempintheeastbayEndorsed Contributor 24 points25 points  (0 children)

    Yes yes yes. I LOVE re-examining the 'why' and thinking about the 'how' in broader strokes like this! I truly believe there are deeply submissive, respectful women in thriving "RP" type relationships with short hair, tattoos, no kids and a condo in Manhattan, just as there are shrewish, hurtful, domineering wives who make a mean pot roast, only paint their nails pale pink and have a well-decorated McMansion! I love a good girly gab sesh about aesthetics as much as anyone, but psychological methods and internal mindsets can be adopted by anyone and manifest in tons of varied ways!

    [–]lidlredridinghood 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Agreeing here. No children, and cohabitation, much less marriage is off e table. But I love deferring to his decisions, taking his lead... And serving him. Making his life better is so satisfying, because I know he's for my back.

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (7 children)

    What made you decide to Suddenly want kids?

    [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 7 points8 points  (6 children)

    There were several factors but the biggest on was that I stopped taking my birth control. I'd been on it since I went to college. I was on it for 4 years of marriage.

    I think that getting married was a factor. There is a part of your brain that says "ok, I have a good man, a stable life, it would be totally ok to do this now". Instead of the fear of an oopsie baby that lived in the pit of my stomach for years (even when I was settled and living with my then BF/now husband).

    I felt that I had control of my life and my emotions to a degree that I was no longer worried about being a bad and selfish parent or repeating the mistakes I believe my mother made. I love her and she did a lot of good for us, but she was also emotionally volatile and unhappy and that made parts of my childhood rough.

    But ultimately, I stopped taking the pill and started having a normal cycle again. I did that for health reasons not baby reasons. But when ovulation kicked back in, and you added in the other factors, it started to seem like children would be a great project to undertake with my husband.

    Because it was never really the plan, we have some ducks to get in a row and haven't started trying at this point. I'll be 35 in the summer so who knows what the future holds. If it doesn't happen we'll go back to the motorcycle plan :-) I'm ok with either. But I'll never go back on hormonal birth control. I feel like it hindered me from making a full decision for myself in a way that I'll never really forgive (the pill and the docs who said I could stay on it to menopause; I'm not actually mad at myself for this one).

    [–]Guywithgirlwithabike2 Stars 5 points6 points  (1 child)

    I don't see it as an either/or decision.

    There are always sidecars...

    [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    Fair enough. I meant more that my happiness isn't tied to having them. I didn't get married because I wanted kids and kids aren't the reason I will stay married. I'd like to work on a project with you and I think that will be a good one.

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    My plan is to stay on the implant till menopause but I have zero desire for kids

    [–]lidlredridinghood 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I had a similar reaction to implanon. I also think it needed up my pheromones, so selecting mates was all goofed up (who I was affected to changed when i went off). And, I didn't realize it, but it was lowering my sex drive, and I had less lubrication...

    [–]TheTyke 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    I hope all goes well for you and your family!

    Btw, he did KNOW about the birth control lol?

    [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Of course I discussed it with him before I stopped taking it. I even asked for his advice since he has an outsiders perspective on my health and behavior.

    He's also on this board, so if he didn't know before he'd know now. I'm in a relationship with my husband, not a protracted battle of the sexes.

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (4 children)

    (until 6 months ago our life plan was no children ever and riding around on motorcycles on weekends).

    You guys are the cool kids on this block 😉

    Excellent points!

    [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    cool kids on this block

    I have a younger brother and sister who would laugh their asses off at this. Siblings...life's way of keeping you humble.

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    As a first class nerd myself - I agree 🤓

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      👌

      That's a beautiful picture. Luscious green is my favorite part of nature.

      [–]Rivkariver2 Star 10 points11 points  (0 children)

      The more I let myself be feminine, the happier I feel and the easier life is.

      [–]DatingCoach111 7 points8 points  (0 children)

      This is the most comprehensive explanation of male-female dynamics I have ever seen. Thank you.

      [–]tempintheeastbayEndorsed Contributor 5 points6 points  (0 children)

      However, these instincts are not always expressed in balance. A woman who is submissive to a man who feels no urge to take care of her, or a man who is protective of a woman who does not submit to him, will end up being harmed.

      I love this - a great overall framework and aphoristic summary.

      One question I'm super fascinated with: in the dance of early dating, who shows what tendency first? Of course there's a give and take, with each party in turn showing a little more vulnerability, a little more vulnerability... but in my current relationship, my BF exhibited a strong urge to take care of me first, and I then reciprocated with a fount of submissive feelings that completely took me by surprise! I've always wondered what it was about his early behavior that brought out this totally new side in me.

      [–]TheTyke 5 points6 points  (0 children)

      This is basically why the 'bimbo' stereotype and ditzy blonde etc. are so common in the cultural psyche but also tend to be related to being the object of male attention or men wanting those types. It isn't about intelligence or being blonde or anything like that, it's that they tend to occupy a submissive role that heavily inspires protective instincts in men.

      This isn't to say a woman has to be a stereotypical bimbo for male attention, obviously, just that the male protectiveness of submissive and or innocent/naive women has been a trope for a long time.

      [–]ayvyns 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      I whole heartedly believe in this.

      [–]vostok-Abdullah 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      To add to the Men aren't drawn to the obedience. They are being drawn to the respect. comment,

      This whole strategy works well if you don't interpret it as "yes master, i'll suck your dick, master" obedience.

      It works if you interpret as yielding/submitting when the man is trying to assert himself or dominate the situation/conversation and often let him take the lead when a leader/driver is needed. Also people notice how differently you treat them compared to others. If he notices you assert yourself with others but yield to him, now that's really romantic. So yield but not appear as a dumb pushover.

      On a side note, we take note of how differently people treat others in all aspects of life. For example, men have a greater respect for a man/woman who treats the parents with respect but treats the children with authority, than someone who treats both equally .

      idk if men are allowed to post here. u can delete if it's not allowed.

      [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 5 points6 points  (2 children)

      Very important post!

      u/luckylittlestar - IMO, this deserves one of your little stars and maybe even a place in the sidebar.

      [–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl 3 points4 points  (1 child)

      It is phenomenal isn't it. Whisper is already an endorsed contributor which is higher than stars! ECs have ALL the stars, that's why they can hand them out ;-)

      [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Ah, I didn't see that while viewing from my phone.

      [–]Austinisfullgohome 2 points3 points  (3 children)

      Good read.

      Just FYI, the first comment appears to be shadow banned. It’s listing one comment but I don’t see anything here, even after refreshing twice.

      [–]CrazyHorseInvincibleModerator[M] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

      I removed it. It was a "driveby" male commentor.

      [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Rush listener spotted 😉

      [–]velvetcade 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Read the comment, I felt it missed the point of the post.

      [–]SuperBeastMode9000 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      I agree.

      As a pro-male type of man, i realized that it is men's best interest to not pity women, (who will often try to get it.)

      I have forced myself over time, to re-train my brain to not feel pity for females, for almost any reason, (thought sometimes i still do on a rare occasion) And this is the tactic of Red pill, PUA, and MGTOW, to not feel sorry for women, to not give them anything they beg for, to make them earn every scrap.

      I have nearly competently seared any sympathy i have for females, only traces of it are left, the only exception being the girl that captured my heart.

      She did it by being submissive, (and beautiful), and by being soft and sweet to me. She left me have my way, she let me be in charge, she was submissive, soft, and sweet. (And beautiful, being very key in importance)

      Thus, she invokes my sympathy, and she is the only female i might consider taking care of.

      I still expect her to pay for her bills, support her self with a job, and protect herself on her own from danger. However, if she failed to do this after making a strong effort and still could not manage it, then she is the only girl i might feel sorry for and step in to help her compensate for her inability. Because in addition to her beauty, her submissiveness more then almost anything else, invokes a feeling of protectiveness in me, something i know females like at times.

      [–]LateralThinker133 Stars 2 points3 points  (95 children)

      Any woman with a triple digit IQ who devotes an hour or so to scanning the main redpill subreddit will quickly realize a few things: TRP deliberately cultivates a harsh and critical tone towards women in general. TRP deliberately teaches dealing with women in a ruthless and self-interested fashion. These are not the result of a raw outpouring of uncontrolled anger, but instead a deliberate instructional choice by TRP's leading voices.

      This is explicitly why I avoid it and spend my time here (or in married RP, or sometimes AskTRP). The stated goal of TRP is to increase male sexual success. Period, full stop. Or to quote:

      TRP's mission is to discuss men's identity, sexual strategy, and options in the context of our current global culture for the benefit of men.

      In theory, this is pretty broad. But in practice, it is JUST to improve men's interactions with women to produce more sexual success. Problem is, not every man is simply looking to get laid. Most of what is said over there just serves that. It doesn't serve men who accept RP truth but still want to risk marriage/relationships with women.

      That said, I love your point about RPW teaching submission and why. How submissiveness synergizes with a Captain's protectiveness and provision is key to success and happiness long-term.

      [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 5 points6 points  (94 children)

      This might not be quite accurate and a TRPer can correct me but...

      I see TRP as bootcamp and RPW more like college. Men can go to college and learn things that they need to know, but it isn't going to make them men with a capital M. Now bootcamp...

      [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      Perhaps that's what the TRP subreddit has become, but that certainly isn't what TRP is.

      TRP is a collection of ideas regarding the truth about human, male and female nature. It's the discussion that seeks the truth even if it's a bitter pill to swallow. An idea is removed from people, it just is. You're free to do or not do whatever you want as a result of or in spite of said ideas.

      The subreddit called TRP has taken one specific path, the path of the PUA who is just in it to enjoy the decline. RPW takes a different path, to apply RP knowledge within the context of a LTR. The difference is in application.

      [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      I should be more clear with my usages. When I say TRP I always mean the subreddit. I think at it's heart, TRP's mission is to make Men...and they do this in an aggressive bootcamp fashion. Boot camp, fraternity hazing and TRP all have a similar structure as far as I'm aware. They break men down, eliminate what you think you know and who you think you are and then rebuild you stronger and into the desired man.

      RPW is the subreddit. We educate on femininity in a gentler manner. Some men may be served sufficiently by RPW - some men are "naturals" or have already had their defining experiences that have taught them what's up with human nature. Those men may not need the TRP experience.

      "RP" is what I use to describe the wider theory and knowledge that comes out of the subs, the blogs, and supporting scientific fields.

      edit: and I think it's worth noting that boot camp, fraternity hazing and I believe TRP are the beginning of the journey not the end result. You come out with new eyes but then you go live in the world where you continue to grow and develop.

      [–]LateralThinker133 Stars 2 points3 points  (91 children)

      Rule 0 of TRP:

      TRP's mission is to discuss men's identity, sexual strategy, and options in the context of our current global culture for the benefit of men.

      As I read that, in theory, this should be education of men to the RP realities of men's and women's natures, and successful strategies for both short-term and long-term relationships with women, platonic and romantic both. it's about seeing how gendered, biological human nature really operates without social blinders on.

      In theory.

      In practice, TRP is about two things:

      1) how to get laid as a man

      2) how to not get burned by a woman.

      I find its posts lacking and its tone... dismissive of anything that isn't one of these two points. Which is why I tend to hang out here or in MRP. I want more from women than sex. I want a meaningful relationship. RP knowledge has enriched my relations with women, helped me end my frustration in understanding them, and made me able to consciously be a Captain and make my wife happy.

      [–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[M] 5 points6 points  (71 children)

      those guys (kids, many of them) are toxic.

      I remind you, TRP is a part of our network. TRP founded RPW. Their Vanguard (founding) members comment here and help to guide both communities. u/Whisper who authored this post is one of those members.

      Not understanding them does not make it acceptable to insult them.

      Remove this line.

      [–]LateralThinker133 Stars 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Removed. I wasn't trying to insult TRP as a whole, or its founders, many of whom I greatly respect. I only dislike the few vocal haters there, usually young bucks looking to score and nothing else.

      [–][deleted]  (69 children)

      [removed]

        [–]CrazyHorseInvincibleModerator[M] 2 points3 points  (68 children)

        women aren't allowed to post in /r/TRP?

        Wrong.

        Read the rules.

        The standard is simple.

        TRP:

        1. Do not announce that you are a woman.
        2. Your writing must be intended to help men.

        RPW:

        1. Do not announce "man here".
        2. Your post or comment must be helpful to women.

        The reason you think that women are not allowed to post in TRP is that, to date, only one woman has ever complied with these rules.

        Some of the men come over here and help women. The women all have zero interest in helping men.

        And here you are crying about unfairness to women. This reminds me of nothing so much as feminists complaining about the lack of female STEM majors when they all majored in women's studies.

        If you want to see women welcomed on the TRP side, then be the change you wish to see in the world. Learn sexual strategy from both points of view, then go over there and unselfishly try to help men get laid. You know... like the men over here have done.

        [–]durtykneesEndorsed Contributor 10 points11 points  (58 children)

        Some of the men come over here and help women. The women all have zero interest in helping men.

        RP says: Men want sex, women want commitment.

        TRP (male) strategy: get sex from hot women with minimal commitment, if any.

        RPW (female) strategy: get commitment from quality men, and women here are encouraged to provide good sex after getting commitment.

        Quality men who want more than disposable sex from disposable women serve their own interests by participating in RPW.

        The only women who would serve their own interests by participating in TRP are .. I don't know .. hot women who want to be pumped and dumped by men?

        Honest question. Pinky promise.

        [–]CrazyHorseInvincibleModerator[M] 6 points7 points  (37 children)

        RP says: Men want sex, women want commitment.

        TRP (male) strategy: get sex from hot women with minimal commitment, if any.

        RPW (female) strategy: get commitment from quality men, and women here are encouraged to provide good sex after getting commitment.

        Not quite right.

        To say that TRP teaches men to get sex while avoiding commitment is like saying the RPW teaches women to get commitment while avoiding sex.

        Women are the gatekeepers of sex, but this does not mean that avoiding sex is a female goal. It merely means that women wish to give out sex only when they are inspired to want it.

        The parallel construction is true of men. The male goal is to pump... dumping produces no additional pleasure. Men wish to give out commitment only when they are inspired to want it.

        The fact that this looks like utter avoidance of commitment springs from the fact that every single (single) woman these men will ever meet in their lives has zero ability to inspire the desire for commitment.

        TRP is a survival guide for this wasteland.

        [–]LateralThinker133 Stars 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Women are the gatekeepers of sex, but this does not mean that avoiding sex is a female goal. It merely means that women wish to give out sex only when they are inspired to want it.

        The parallel construction is true of men. The male goal is to pump... dumping produces no additional pleasure. Men wish to give out commitment only when they are inspired to want it.

        The fact that this looks like utter avoidance of commitment springs from the fact that every single (single) woman these men will ever meet in their lives has zero ability to inspire the desire for commitment.

        This. Exactly.

        [–]durtykneesEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (35 children)

        I appreciate the clarification. This is something I've long wanted to ask, because the jarring differences makes it very difficult to mention RP subs in any constructive context outside of RP subs.

        [–]WhisperTRP Founder[S] 11 points12 points  (32 children)

        Gonna jump in here.

        That ruthless tone is precisely the secret sauce that makes TRP work. Without it, nothing would help... in fact, there was a group that had all the same sort of material without the "ruthlessness and misogyny", and it failed HARD, necessitating the creation of TRP in the first place.

        As I said, the whole idea is to suppress the protective instinct... because right now, your average, decently attractive, non-RP guy is getting into relationships not because they serve any goal or desire of his at all, but simply because women demand them before or after sex.

        His protective instinct is making him work towards the goals of women who are not submissive to him at all, and do not give a single fuck about his goals, dreams, or happiness.

        We enable men to suppress that self-destructive pattern by churning up and stoking the coals of their resentment at this high-handed and entitled treatment. This produces an angry misogynist.

        Then we teach him the ins and out of how to build attraction, and he starts getting sex, and, even more importantly, adoration and desire (something men crave because, unlike women, they don't grow up swimming in a sea of it). This turns him into a happy misogynist. Now he gets laid a lot, because women adore a happy, self-contained, unapologetic misogynist.

        But we don't teach the next step, beyond mentioning that it exists occasionally.

        Why not?

        Because it's out of his control.

        Just as you, a woman, can only vet men for sex-worthiness, and have no power over whether or not you meet sex-worthy men... so he, a man, can only vet women for commitment worthiness. He has no power over whether he meets a commitment-worthy woman.

        He can try to train the ones he meets, a bit, but they have to be teachable, which pretty much boils down to the same thing. And he can't try too hard to teach them, because it's not his job to make a relationship happen, any more than it is a woman's to make sex happen. (Think about it... how open would you be to meeting a guy who wasn't sex-worthy, whom you didn't find attractive, and trying to train him up and then sleep with him?)

        He can't even go and hang out where they congregate, because they don't congregate anywhere. There aren't enough of them to run into each other and form social groups. Commitment-worthy women in this society live lives of quiet isolation, wondering in the privacy of their own heads if something is wrong with them because they don't think men are cancer, and being lectured by their girlfriends about that "low self-esteem" problem that seems to imbue them with the crazy idea that they aren't special, and have to earn love.

        Teaching the men of TRP how to handle a commitment-worthy woman would be like teaching them how to tame snow leopards... a complete and utter waste of their time.

        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

        [removed]

          [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 5 points6 points  (13 children)

          The original question was essentially "why can men post on RPW but women cannot post on TRP"

          And I believe that u/CrazyHorseInvincible's point is that women can post on TRP if they give TRP-centric advice. Just like men can post on RPW if they give RPW-centric advice.

          Many men who post here are in relationships. They are giving advice for the good of the women here. This ties back into the argument of this post as well. Men have an innate drive to care for women. But for the ones in relationships the benefit to them is negligible. Even if RPW became the dominant way of life, these men already have partners so their advice here is not strictly for their benefit.

          A woman could post on TRP without any benefit to herself. Most do not chose to do that. Women tend to be more ingroup focused. Where men have a drive to care for women, women are inclined towards solidarity with other women. It will feel anathema to most woman (especially RPW minded women) to give advice to a man on how to pump and dump another woman.

          There are benefits to men, especially young ones, to learn how to get laid. It boost self esteem and gives confidence that is needed for men to function in the world.

          [–]durtykneesEndorsed Contributor 4 points5 points  (3 children)

          All good points, thank you!

          A woman could post on TRP without any benefit to herself. Most do not chose to do that.

          The biggest difference between TRP and RPW is that RPW aren't full of posts that are clearly hostile towards men.

          In fact, I don't think we have any posts that are hostile towards men (in general), ever.

          There are benefits to men, especially young ones, to learn how to get laid. It boost self esteem and gives confidence that is needed for men to function in the world.

          If you're implying that helps in restoring the state of gender relations in western society in general, I'm going to say it will actually work against restoration, as long as those young men are all regularly encouraged to view women with hostility.

          When I say "hostility", I'm not talking about "harsh tones" describing typical female behavior, as I'm quite indifferent to that and I also find it hilarious when it's true.

          I'm talking about indiscriminate condemnation of women, where if we were to switch genders, it would be like RPW being a sub talking about how all men are only good for providing resources (the way MGTOW think how all women perceive men).

          It will feel anathema to most woman (especially RPW minded women) to give advice to a man on how to pump and dump another woman.

          Pretty much.

          Men have an innate drive to care for women. But for the ones in relationships the benefit to them is negligible.

          Don't underestimate what you can learn by presenting ideas/thoughts openly for the chance of feedback. This is how I learned some new things in this sub, even if it's not particularly relevant/beneficial for me in the relationship department.

          Presenting any NAWALT-ish concepts (RPW is as close to NAWALT as it gets) at TRP is not productive when all you're likely to get is "AWALT!".

          Don't get me wrong: I think TRP is worth reading. It's just not worth participating --- correct me if I'm wrong.

          [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (2 children)

          If you're implying that helps in restoring the state of gender relations in western society in general, I'm going to say it will actually work against restoration

          No not at all. But let's face it, we are where we are. I certainly wish it was different. If more women would recognize that indiscriminate sex was not good for us - then I'd have more of an issue with men who learn how to have indiscriminate sex. But I think there is something to be said for living in the world while striving to make it better.

          And living in this world, I can see the benefit of young men learning what really appeals to women. Some of these men will do this their whole lives. But I think that plenty will settle down if they find a decent woman after they've sowed their oats and such. In the mean time, knowing that they can get laid has to be an extreme confidence booster. Who can say what that does for your life trajectory.

          And I can see the benefit of teaching young men the risks associated with falling for a woman. Husband's best buddy from childhood had his life derailed by an unplanned pregnancy. However, it's pretty clear to everyone that it was only unplanned for him. He's done right by his (now) wife and kids and will continue to do so until the last one hits college. His wife thinks she can do nothing and rest on her laurels. She was never going to make anything of herself without him and she doesn't believe she has to do anything to keep him. Now there is a man who could have used some TRP caution when he was younger.

          I suspect that what we see as extreme in most cases, is really men pumping themselves up. The ones with any brain in their heads will then think about what they read and what advice is good and bad and make their own decisions. And some may not - but with the male IQ curve stretched out the way it is - there are bound to be more extremes.

          I'm talking about indiscriminate condemnation of women,

          I know there is extreme talk over at TRP. I honestly keep myself out of there most of the time. I've read the sidebar. I have The Rational Male on my short term reading list. For men's issues, I generally stick to the blogs.

          I don't think my participation would be of much value, I'm with you there. I think men need to teach other men these things. I don't honestly know why the person who started this chain even wants to complain about women not being "allowed" in TRP (which is why my hubby is convinced she's here to stir shit). There are probably some women who could contribute and do fine at it if they were inclined. But me? I'm a reasonably calm person and the anger and hate gets me worked up. So I know that I can't be my reasonable self in the middle of some of the discussions that occur. I do what I advise others to do and just stay away.

          [–][deleted]  (8 children)

          [removed]

            [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (3 children)

            I think you are reading it wrong. But also, to some degree, I do think women need to be taken down a notch.

            I wrote a post the other day, based off of my personal experience and advice from Laura Doyle's "First, Kill All the Marriage Counselors". In the thread a woman disagreed with my interpretation of how to make requests of your husband. I tried to gently suggest that what she was doing was not going to help her marriage out in the long run, someone else backed me up. This woman freaked out and told me I don't know her, her husband or their relationship.

            We women these days are so used to being told that we can do no wrong. We've gain a lot of privileged over the last 50 years and not many responsibilities to go along with them. ONE example: no fault divorce was intended to make it easier for women to get out of bad marriages. The divorce rate has skyrocketed, to the detriment of all, but particularly men and children and it is women who initiate most divorces.

            So I think a lot of women come here with the attitude that they will pick up a few skills to add to their repertoire. They think they are doing nothing wrong in their relationships. Yes, I think these women may need to have their eyes opened to the world around them.

            If you read things with an open mind, they don't sound as hostile. And if you start to understand some of the shit that men go through - you can also have some sympathy when their tone goes into hostile territory. I said this to someone in a PM earlier: my husband and I had a stint where we had threesomes with a few different women. These women were in my life for a period of time. Plus the 'dating' process to all of it. I had my eyes opened to how difficult women can be. I do not envy men and it made me much more sympathetic to male hostility when dealing with the female imperative.

            [–]Guywithgirlwithabike2 Stars 2 points3 points  (3 children)

            I don't think you're reading it wrong; I actually think you haven't been reading it at all.

            As my username would suggest (and my flair) I am already in a relationship - with an endorsed contributer on this board. I comment here regularly, and when I do I make an effort to maintain a tone that will be well received by women, and put thought and effort into my advice. This can be verified by a perusal of my post history and their replies.

            There are a number of other male commenters here that regularly do the same - many appear to be in relationships as well.

            I can't speak to their motivations, but their efforts certainly appear sincere. Personally, I think the goal of this board (when pursued earnestly) is something that is of immense benefit not just to the women here and their eventual spouses, but the good of society as a whole. Monogamous married couples raising children to be virtuous human beings are the foundation of all civilization.

            While many of the women here do appear to genuinely want to be good and loyal wives one day, there are a significant number that I've noticed are acting in their own (anti-social) self-interest and have no desire to treat their husbands any better than necessary to get what they want.

            I continue to offer them advice nonetheless, because I believe it is the good and just and righteous thing to do.

            Many of the other male commenters seem similarly inclined.

            As was noted above, in the many years r/TRP has been in existence, there is exactly ONE instance of a woman commenting in a genuine attempt to help any other man.

            It would be nice to see some of that compassion I'm so frequently told women have the monopoly on directed at the men over on r/TRP, who clearly could use some well-worded guidance on how to communicate with women from a woman's point of view.

            Incidentally, I suspect you created this account simply to stir the pot.

            [–]Guywithgirlwithabike2 Stars 1 point2 points  (5 children)

            Really? You can't think of any advice to offer men over at r/TRP other than tips on a pump & dump? Is the problem lack of ability, or lack of inclination?

            [–]durtykneesEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (4 children)

            Feel free to educate me on what I can contribute.

            [–]ventuspilot 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            Men are bad at recognizing and dealing with toxic women. I think this is where women could contribute the most.

            [–]Guywithgirlwithabike2 Stars 1 point2 points  (2 children)

            I couldn't tell you; I don't know enough about you to guess what you might personally could add.

            I do know what you could do without if you went over there - the petty snark.

            When I read the comments on that board I see a mass of men that have been forgotten, discarded, disrespected, patronized, condescended to, and dehumanized - and nearly all of that treatment on a personal level has come from women. The "fairer" sex. The "gentler" sex. The "compassionate" sex.

            Their anger is entirely justified. The bare minimum they deserve is to be treated as human beings with inherent dignity - and not just for their sake. For yours as well, because if that mass of men grows large enough and angry enough, it carries the potential to burn our society to its foundations.

            The last thing our country needs is an army of young men with NOTHING to live for and no reason to check their anger.

            [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            You touch here on a broader issue - men help women, women are helped by men. This is generally the case because we're biologically designed to be this way. Perhaps that's why...

            Some of the men come over here and help women. The women all have zero interest in helping men.

            [–][deleted]  (7 children)

            [removed]

              [–]CrazyHorseInvincibleModerator[M] 6 points7 points  (6 children)

              It was a negligent and thoughtless question.

              You didn't even bother to read the rules of TRP, which are clearly posted for all to see, before complaining how "unfair" they are.

              So, no, I'm not going to be too impressed by you clutching your pearls and threatening to faint. If you don't like the way you are being treated, deserve better.

              Don't complain about rudeness while being rude.

              [–][deleted]  (5 children)

              [removed]

                [–]Guywithgirlwithabike2 Stars 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                You are not new to Reddit.

                You are lying.

                You recently created this particular account so you could come here and start trouble. I suspect that it was something you thought up with some other posters in a circle jerk on one of the angry feminist subs.

                Because someone is upvoting your catty comments, and it sure as hell ain't the fine Women here.

                [–]CrazyHorseInvincibleModerator[M] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                I'm new to Reddit, I don't even know how to find the rules!

                And yet you chose to spread rumors about a bunch of people you knew you didn't know anything about. Are you starting to understand that this was a mistake?

                Contrary to what our feminism-distorted society believes, opinions and viewpoints are NOT all equally valid. Some are a result of much effort, thought, time, and study. Others are a knee-jerk reaction.

                I was just excited to find a community of more traditional, anti-feminist women

                Many individual users of RPW are "tradcons". RPW as a whole is not. It derives what it regards as tactics from certain observations about the human condition, and applies them to real situations to see what works.

                This is different from tradcon thought, which derives what it regards as moral obligations from the actions of people in the past, or from religious dogma.

                RPW is, of course, heavily anti-feminist, but this is because feminism is anti-reality, and anyone who tests their theories in action must eventually part ways with it.

                It was just a question, my apologies.

                Accepted, but it's important to understand WHY you were chastised.

                You spoke in haste, spreading a false and negative rumor about a group of men who have done nothing to harm you. You plead ignorance as an excuse, but it is not an excuse, because it is the problem. You knew you were ignorant, but you spoke anyway, and you did not stop to consider the possible consequences of your words.

                If you want to do better, and be better, then RPW is a good place to hang out and read stuff. But if you were not looking to learn anything, but instead to be petted and praised for not being a feminist, then you're not going to like it here very much at all.

                [–]carefreevermillion2 Star 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                With a sub like this where the rules are not flexible (for good reason), take your time and thoroughly go through the sidebar and rules. It should answer most of your questions.

                Furthermore, advice and guidance here is delivered swiftly and harshly because the goal is to make you a woman who is strong enough to handle life in addition to loving and supportive in your relationship. If you can handle criticisms here, you've made a good start to having healthy conversations about chaos in your life in your relationship.

                [–]Guywithgirlwithabike2 Stars 2 points3 points  (18 children)

                The real benefit I see from having r/TRP around (and MGTOW, and PUA) is they are starting to turn the Battle of the Sexes from a route into a fair fight - but it is still a battle.

                RPW and MRP are an attempt at peace negotiations, which is the best result for everyone. A clean victory in the battle of the sexes isn't possible anyway; too much fraternizing with the enemy for that.

                [–]WhisperTRP Founder[S] 5 points6 points  (15 children)

                RPW and MRP are an attempt at peace negotiations, which is the best result for everyone.

                I disagree.

                RPW is a lexicon of tactics for one woman to negotiate a separate peace with one man.

                They as a group cannot effectively end the war, because they have zero traction with the people who started it, they are a tiny minority compared to TRP, and they are attempting to negotiate with the defender rather than the aggressor.

                [–]Guywithgirlwithabike2 Stars 3 points4 points  (13 children)

                "A separate peace" - I commend your literacy.

                I tend to agree with your view, but I still stubbornly hold out hope that we can avoid a literal civil war in this country, and I believe the current feminist hysteria will play a role in bringing it about. I don't want to see the world burn.

                [–]WhisperTRP Founder[S] 7 points8 points  (10 children)

                I don't want to see the world burn.

                Neither do I, but being objective means accepting that "what I want" and "what I think will happen" can be two very different things. The universe doesn't really care what we want.

                The most important underpinning of my thoughts on this was the realization that feminism didn't kill marriage, technology did. That's a game-changer, because feminism might reversible, but technology certainly isn't.

                Marriage 2.0 is terrible for men, and I of course advise them to avoid it at all costs.

                But most men on TRP don't even want Marriage 1.0 back, and I don't blame them... not merely because it's impossible (technology, etc, etc), but because it had gotten to be a bad enough deal (Marriage 1.5?) that the Baby Boomer men were willing to help pull it down for the promise (mostly false) of a little hairy free-love snatch.

                Hardly a sterling recommendation for its contribution to male happiness.

                In the long run, no civilization can survive unless it ties male happiness to male productivity. Every civilization is not only created, but maintained on a daily basis, by male effort. And effort doesn't just mean labour, but also creativity, innovation, and leadership. But men don't keep the lights on for money, or the love of climbing a pole to work on high-voltage lines... they do it, if they do it, for the sake of being loved, respected, and laid.

                If male efforts are rewarded with none of those things, civilization slowly winds down, because women sure as hell ain't gonna take up the slack.

                So what do I think will happen?

                I think that marriage and the family has been redefined twice before, and this will happen one more time in the near future.

                Marriage/Family 0.1: A family is a man, his children, and the mothers of those children.

                Marriage/Family 1.0: A family is a man, a woman, and their children.

                Marriage/Family 2.0: A family is a woman, her children, and whatever man she is currently having sex with. <------we are here.

                Family 3.0: A family is a woman and her children, supported by government mandated taxes and child support on the lone, wandering adult male population.

                The problems with this last bit, of course, are twofold. First of all, boys need fathers to teach them how to be men. Second, men don't like being voiceless ATMs, and will retaliate by becoming deadbeats. Couple of generations of this, no more western civilization.

                No major political or cultural force has a realistic solution to this problem.

                Liberals: "What problem? Fathers are obsolete! Single mothers can raise children just fine! We'll just tax men to pay for all of it, and everything will be fine, because men are money trees! What do you mean, 'perverse incentive'? What's that?"

                Conservatives: "This problem is horrible! Civilization is in grave danger! Men, you must immediately dive on a grenade to save it! Man up and get married! You might not lose everything you worked for and still die alone! What do you mean, 'perverse incentive'? What's that?"

                People keep asking me if this situation can be saved, but not one of those people has any suggestion whatsoever for a new model that has something in it for men. They want to leave figuring that out to the young, unmarried men. But young, unmarried men have no incentive to come up with such a model, because their options are:

                • Come up with such a model, then fight an uphill battle to establish it, when young unmarried women are aghast that someone is telling them they can't have all the cookies, and older married men and women are aghast that they are being so heartless and mean as to demand that women give up some of the cookies.
                • Learn game, bang sluts, and be happy right now.

                In other words, no one is going to come up with a plan, because:

                • Young unmarried women ain't gonna come up with jack shit.
                • Older married people don't care because fuck you, they've got theirs.
                • Young unmarried men have no incentive to save civilization because it none of it belongs to them, and it doesn't give a crap about them.

                This is what TRP means by "enjoy the decline".

                [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                Hey you! Stop putting these ideas into my husband's head...I have him and his resources exactly where I want them...<strokes black cat, checks bank account balance> mwahahahaha

                [–]WhisperTRP Founder[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                You're mixing metaphors. I'd go with the fur coat and poodle on a diamond-studded leash.

                [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                But isn't every wife really a witch in waiting?

                How's this: <checks bank balance, packs poodle in Prada bag, goes shopping at Bloomingdales, returns home, orders take out>

                [–]Guywithgirlwithabike2 Stars 1 point2 points  (5 children)

                Yeah, I know that wishing won't make it so.

                And I've been bothered for a while that I have yet to hear a single cogent rebuttal to any of your points.

                The Baby Boomers have fucked us all, and at this point I would prefer the collapse come as soon as possible so they spend their golden years in abject fear, desperation, and suffering.

                Young women will happily destroy the world around them with their self-centeredness and pin the blame on men and the world at large without a second of self-reflection.

                Unfortunately, being already married (and happily so, in spite of the world) I can't "enjoy the decline" the way a bachelor can.

                So I've picked the best option available to me personally; I'm positioning myself to be a frighteningly-armed warlord after the collapse comes. For all the criticism the military-industrial complex gets, there's something to be said for surface-to-air missile batteries.

                [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                I thought enjoying the decline was why I had to learn to ride a motorcycle. Are you telling me I did that just for fun?

                [–]WhisperTRP Founder[S] 3 points4 points  (2 children)

                Yeah, I know that wishing won't make it so.

                And I've been bothered for a while that I have yet to hear a single cogent rebuttal to any of your points.

                The only attempts I have heard are:

                • You are a big meanie.
                • My husband and I are doing just fine.
                • We just need to roll back feminism and restore Marriage 1.0.

                ... to which the respective answers are, "Yes, and?", "That's nice for you.", and "Feminism didn't kill Marriage 1.0, the information economy did".

                I could think of any number of solutions that would work, but every real, workable plan has two elements:

                • What do you want people to do?
                • How do you plan to get them to do it?

                Without the second, a plan isn't a plan. It's a wish list.

                So what I do is hang around telling men how avoid going down with the ship (don't get married or have kids), and women how to catch the last train out of clusterfuckistan (be a catch, and hope to god that your man didn't listen to my advice for men).

                [–]Guywithgirlwithabike2 Stars 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                I suspect the advice to men is going to have a far larger receptive audience than the advice to women.

                I agree that any intentional effort to "roll things back" is doomed to fail - the level of repression required to pull it off just isn't practically feasible, particularly with society functioning so poorly as it is.

                I'm banking on civil war and strife worldwide for a period of at least a decade within my lifetime; with the collapse of civilization the only options left will be return to a functioning model or death.

                If things can't go on like this forever, sooner or later...

                They won't.

                [–]Guywithgirlwithabike2 Stars 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                I think we're on the wrong board for this discussion.

                Which way to The Black Pill?

                [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                👌

                [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                No one wants to see the world burn, but unfortunately it looks like we're headed in that direction....

                [–]Guywithgirlwithabike2 Stars 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                I think you're being naive there. There are a great many people that wish to see the world burn, and they are quite open about their desire.

                [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                And likewise, TRP is still quite small with regards to the general population. It's gained huge amounts of traction in recent years, but it's still small. Whether tides will shift anytime soon? Time will tell.

                [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                fair fight

                I don't see this happening. TRP ideas are automatically labeled as hateful and misogynistic. With attitudes like that, they aren't fighting fair.

                [–]Guywithgirlwithabike2 Stars 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                With 50 years of a women's movement that is pathologically resentful and misandrist, it is the only response that is fair.

                [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                [removed]

                [–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[M] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                And who are you that your advice is so sage? Happily married? Long term relationship? The only one in this situation whose comment history is hidden is yours.

                If you have better advice you should have written it. Instead you decided to be angry and critical. It's not an attractive look.

                [–]RedPill_Swinger -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                Great post! This is why a change in the current state of things can only be demanded by YOU WOMEN.

                Throughout the west every system is rigged in favour of the feminine imperative, this will lead many men to be burnt and in return some of them will swallow TRP and will opt out, this will be very damaging to quality RPW who instinctively will know that it's all beta cucks' and sluts' fault.

                So once you'll be fed up and unite against this state of things, that will be the right moment for a change.