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RELATIONSHIPSWhy he might consider marrying you. (self.RedPillWomen)

submitted by loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor

In days bygone, you had to marry to have sex. Therefore, a man who was interested in sex needed to try to impress a woman, court her and finally propose marriage. This has changed in all of the west except for certain religious communities. Today, premarital sex is the norm. If so, why would a man consider marriage?

Additionally, marriage has become a huge liability for men. Alimony, child support, custody and rape allegations are all stacked against men. Men are still expected to fulfill all the traditional male obligations but are not to expect the same from their wives. Thus, marriage has become a raw deal for the average western man.

It therefore stands to reason that if you want your man to marry you, he needs to have a very good reason for doing so. There needs to be something big in it for him. The benefits of marriage has to outweigh the potential risks.

Men generally love to analyze things by a cost/benefit measure. If the benefits outweigh the costs, we're in. If the costs outweigh the benefits, we're out. The reason why so many men today are shunning marriage is because - in western society - the cost of marriage far outweighs the benefit for men.

If you don't plan on having children, there's no reason to get married other than religious reasons. Just live together, love each other and commit to one another without the legal entanglement called marriage. If you do plan on having children, here are some things to consider.

Courtship

During this time, you vet one another to determine whether you're ready to live the rest of your lives together. It's wise to bring up all the big things early on. Be honest and straightforward. This is when you want every potential deal-breaker to emerge so you can go your separate ways if you aren't for each other.

Your SMV will be quite apparent early on, it's your RMV that's now under scrutiny. This is what will take him some time to vet.

It's my firm opinion that you should have no sex or sexual contact during this period of time. It's wiser and healthier to build a relationship that isn't blinded by pre/post sex hormones. Have sex when you reach the next stage.

Commitment

In my books, this is when you're married. Once you commit to each other. This is when you should engage in sexual activity. Go at it, don't hold back. The word appropriate means in the right place, at the right time, with the right person. Now that you're commuted to him, he fits the bill as an appropriate person to have sex with.

Men are expected to bring home the bulk of the finances. Show him that you care about his money at every opportunity you have. When he's getting ready to commit, insist that you don't need a ring or any other fancy/expensive item. This will send him a message that you value his money. If he buys you a ring or any other expensive item, reiterate that it's truly unnecessary, be very grateful and extra loving as a sign of your appreciation.

Yes, a ring is a traditional sign of your commitment. However, with today's different dynamics of marriage, a ring to a man is a financial cost that has little to no benefit to him. He may not readily admit to this (Especially if he fears your retaliation for telling the truth), but this is part of the reason for MGTOW. More and more men feel that things like a ring and big wedding are expected whereas things like sex are not to be expected. (Once again, the point of this post is to enumerate some of the things that make marriage more attractive or less attractive to men).

Marriage

You should be together for several years by now and only getting legally married because you're ready to have children. Full trust should be a given by now, but it shouldn't be assumed and expected indefinitely. Remember, marriage is still a raw deal for western men no matter how much he trusts you. If you want him to take the plunge, you ought to address his potential concerns by making it less of a potential raw deal.

The first way to do this is to always keep him happy. You keep a man happy by keeping his balls empty, his stomach full and your mouth shut. That's it. Three simple things. Active, varied and passionate sex. Hearty, healthy and filling home cooked meals. And a woman who is pleasant to be around, who doesn't nag, whine, complain, cajole, threaten, bitch, ctiticize or offer ultimata.

Next is to write up and sign a prenuptial agreement. You should each have your own legal representation and you should have the whole thing recorded by a professional videographer. You buy insurance for your house and car even though you plan on never using it, a prenuptial agreement is insurance for your marriage. Don't wait for him to raise the issue, you bringing it up will demonstrate your concern for his wellbeing.

Conclusion

Marriage is a raw deal for western men. Take steps to make it a better deal for your man if you want to make this decision more appealing to him.

Cheers!


[–]VioletNoRegard 20 points21 points  (7 children)

I think this is a great post that outlines a lot of solid important information as succinctly as possible. I agree with what you've written but I also wanted to add an anecdote from my life for any RP women wondering if they can still meet their goals if the process looks different for them.

In my personal experience, I had to show that I could be a good mother and wife before I got proposed to. How you do that is up to you. In general, RP discourages cohabitation, premarital sex, and showing housekeeping/mothering skills too early as it can come off desperate or fake. I made the choice to do those things during the girlfriend stage as my fiancé was a single father and as nicely as possible outlined what you have here about marriage being a raw deal for too many western men. He had always been marriage minded but wanted to know what he was getting into first, which I think is totally fair.

Having a plan and taking advice is good but RP women are not like the feminists who want you to follow their formula with precision. We accept reality and therefore we can adapt to it and still achieve what we want.

[–]ivegotsomequestions0 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Same here. I think refraining from premarital sex makes sense for the traditional reasons, but I'm not sure how far it will get a non- religious woman in today's world. It is probably decent advice for very young virgins reading this, but not actionable for non-virgins and women over 22 or so. Those women have the harder task of adding so much extra value that a man will marry them, even though he's already getting the milk for free.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your input!

[–][deleted]  (4 children)

[deleted]

    [–]Salohcin22 22 points23 points  (3 children)

    Ladies, are you paying attention yet?

    That sounds kind of condescending. A Lot of women here already realize a lot of these things, which is why they are here. Talking down to them and acting spiteful is not productive at all.

    [–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (3 children)

    Don't wait for him to raise the issue, you bringing it up will demonstrate your concern for his wellbeing.

    I just asked my husband - we've been married 16 years, together for 19 - what he would have done if I had done this. (I have always been the breadwinner.) He told me that this was actually one of the reasons he split with his ex-girlfriend, the woman he lived with before me.

    She had an inheritance and told him she wanted a prenup to protect it. He himself has a family trust (which is locked down and untouchable by anyone who is not a blood relation), but he didn't even tell her that. He just broke up with her.

    Had I mentioned a prenup to him in any way, not only would I not be married to this man, I would not even be with him.

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 3 points4 points  (2 children)

    Exceptions prove the rule, they don't disprove it. This move, while very romantic, is a bad business decision. More and more men today are thinking with their good business minds and not allowing themselves to be blinded by romance.

    [–]scallopkidEndorsed Contributor 9 points10 points  (0 children)

    My instinct is still to not bring it up first. My SO just casually mentioned marriage the other day, and what I plan to do is be 100% on board if he brings up having a prenup, but not mention it first.

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    TIL that my husband, who has literally said to me in so many words, "Your feelings make no sense. Good thing I don't think about them" is romantic.

    [–]akanachan 16 points17 points  (9 children)

    If you don't plan on having children, there's no reason to get married other than religious reasons.

    While this is true in a very-general western-centric sense (which is what RPW/TRP is about), it should be also noted that RPW/TRP is also family-centric, which often excludes beneficial advice for childfree couples (childfree is not quite "the norm", I guess?).

    I think anybody (childfree/religious, or not) should treat a marriage like a business partnership, where the "business" is "your life together".

    You don't form a business partnership with someone when the basic premise is "a raw deal", unless you have a limited time to make children -- which is probably the point you're trying to make, and I fully agree in that regard.

    However, for the childfree, marriage greases a lot of wheels if you're socializing often with people who don't know you well, or the scope of your work is international.

    When you've found a "boyfriend/girlfriend" whom you want to spend the rest of your life with, there's plenty of social benefits of being "husband/wife" instead. The legal benefits are great too, but that varies in different countries.

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 2 points3 points  (8 children)

    In a business partnership, there's no alimony and the person who is more heavily invested will get more of the assets. Marriage law clearly doesn't work this way.

    [–]batting4fireflies 10 points11 points  (5 children)

    There is also no alimony depending on the state you live in. Where I live, a woman has a very high burden to show the court that alimony is needed. Basically, unless she was a SAHM the entire marriage and didn't worked for 20 years, she is not getting alimony. Those women who do meet that high burden, generally only get alimony for a brief period of time to allow her time to find a job.

    My SO and I do not want kids and we are not religious, but we still want to get married to symbolize our commitment to each other and to "show it to the world" so to speak. It also guarantees that we are each other's next of kin legally. If I died unexpectedly, he'd get everything. If one of us has a medical emergency, we'd have decision making powers. I know this can also be achieved through wills, etc. but those can be contested. Marriage cannot.

    If we ever divorced, my SO would never pay alimony and our assets would be equitably distributed between the two of us and any pre-marital debt either of us have would stay with us. My student loan debt would never become him responsibility, for example.

    [–]tuyguy 11 points12 points  (1 child)

    depending on the state you live in

    Also not every person lives in North America

    [–]Startthecar27 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    If we ever divorced, my SO would never pay alimony and our assets would be equitably distributed between the two of us and any pre-marital debt either of us have would stay with us. My student loan debt would never become him responsibility, for example.

    I have never met a woman who turned down free money.

    [–]batting4fireflies 4 points5 points  (1 child)

    Okay, your point being?

    If you read my entire comment, I state in the first paragraph that under my state's divorce laws, courts are only allowed to order alimony under very specific circumstances and the party requesting alimony has a very high burden to prove it is necessary.

    If my SO and I got divorced, I would not have the choice to "turn down free money" because a court could not legally order my SO to pay alimony unless he offered (which he wouldn't). If I requested alimony, I would be laughed out of the courtroom.

    [–]Startthecar27 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    My point is that may not be up to you. The final decision is up to a gynocetric judge. For example Your debt is community property and the judge may decide it isn't fair that you get it all. Sounds silly , I know, but....

    Ill take your word on the alimony. The problem is right now you are in love, when you get divorced, you will hate him, your lawyer will whisper in your ear.

    Watch a movie called divorce corp, on netflix.

    But hopefully it will never happen, wish you the best.

    [–]akanachan 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    Depending on the fallout of the business failure, it could cost you more than an alimony.

    [–]Banincoming 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    If we are talking that level of "mega-fallout from failure", there's more than once instance of a wife making up stories about her husband during divorce proceedings that cost him a lot more than alimony.

    [–]Ariel125 14 points15 points  (23 children)

    my hubs and I may never have kids (I have PCOS, but then again we haven't been totally seriously 'trying'). We have both have busy careers and are fine not having them. We did however want to get married because we are wildly passionate about each other and could not stand not being legally bound. Even though we belong to each other in our hearts we wanted it to be legal as well. It feels amazing calling each other husband and wife. Also, a prenup is highly individual. It can be pretty insulting to both parties.

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 1 point2 points  (22 children)

    Why does wildly passionate = marriage?

    And what's so insulting about a prenup?

    [–]snow_angel022968 10 points11 points  (17 children)

    I'd say there's more to marriage than just wanting kids...of course, you could technically get similar benefits via a bunch of legal documents, but those benefits don't compare to the ones you'd get if you were married. Most of said benefits are (thankfully) not benefits you'd deal with on a daily basis...for example, I don't know about you, but I'd like to be in the same hospital room as my spouse if they have an emergency; I'd also want them to be in the room if I have an emergency. What I don't want is a drama scene outside the hospital because one set of parents don't want the bf/gf in the room. Making medical decisions for me. Not having to immediately pay taxes on our estate when one passes. Better tax rates (generally speaking).

    Prenups imply a lack of trust and a desire to divorce imo. They're also as far from home or car insurance you can get (neither of which you have a choice in - the dealership/bank requires it prior to lending you the money...)

    [–]ivegotsomequestions0 2 points3 points  (8 children)

    Prenups imply a lack of trust and a desire to divorce imo.

    Yeah, I am all about women securing their futures but I cannot agree with this. A prenup generally matters if you marry a man with significantly more assets and earnings than you have, and then divorce him. It Is pretty reasonable to not get as much as the law allows in that situation. If you are worried about the vulnerability of being a SAHM and him filing for divorce, then you can draft something that will protect you in that instance, but that will also protect him if you file. I Don't see a reason to shy away from one.

    [–]snow_angel022968 7 points8 points  (4 children)

    Uhm...are we discounting the fact that women can have significantly more assets than men (I still don't think a prenup should be involved)?

    I don't think divorce should ever be on the table unless abuse and/or cheating is involved (in which case, the abuser/cheater should absolutely be punished; any other "irreconcilable difference" is a failure on your part to vet the wo/man properly). If you're going into the marriage with a "just in case" mindset of getting divorced, just don't get married in the first place.

    [–]ivegotsomequestions0 3 points4 points  (3 children)

    I don't think divorce should ever be on the table unless abuse and/or cheating is involved

    Agreed, so then the prenup won't get used and it's not worth arguing about.

    If you're going into the marriage with a "just in case" mindset of getting divorced, just don't get married in the first place.

    That's idealistic, but the fact is that many, many people get divorced who never thought it would happen to them. I just don't see the downside of getting one.

    [–]snow_angel022968 2 points3 points  (2 children)

    I just see a prenup as a giant flashing neon sign of "I don't trust you and therefore you shouldn't trust me either," in which case, again, just don't get married. Everyone's established the fact that no one trusts the other person (I mean, you're paying a lawyer to put that on paper that's signed by both parties). So why get married in the first place?

    If everyone's convinced divorce is already on the table, many of the marital benefits won't apply anyway (since most kick in once someone dies). Maybe the one with the higher income has a better tax break but that'll be at the expense of the one with the lower income getting taxed more (iirc those who earn about the same aren't getting as much tax breaks, if at all). No real point in having kids either (this is more for the woman - I mean, why would you want to risk your life to have a kid with someone who doesn't trust you?). Hospital visitation rights? Please, the visiting spouse already has one foot out the door. Making medical decisions for you if you're in a coma? Would you really trust them to have your best interests at heart?

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    I just see a prenup as a giant flashing neon sign of "I don't trust you and therefore you shouldn't trust me either,"

    It isn't this at all! With the odds of divorce being one to one, you'd have to be stupid not to protect against the possibility of divorce. You wouldn't drive a car if your odds of getting killed in a car crash were 50% why should you trust blindly going into marriage? Do you think the 50% of couples who divorce thought they'd be from those who divorced?

    [–]snow_angel022968 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Which again, really just says I don't trust you. Wrap it however you want, at the end of the day, that's just really what it is no? I don't trust that you'll stay with me 'til death do us part, so I'm going to have a backup plan to get out. And if there's already a backup plan in place to get out, should I really be trusting you with major decisions that affect my life?

    Is getting married really the same as driving though? Outside of major cities, most cities don't have a good public transportation system (and even then, if you take the bus, I'd consider it really part of driving). If you want to get from point A to point B, you don't really have a choice in driving, even if there is a 99% chance of dying (I suppose there's an option to work from home, but I'd imagine that's not an option everyone has). No one is forcing you to get married...

    I'd definitely say some of those can be expected - I mean, if someone's on their 2nd or 3rd divorce, do you really expect their next one to last a lifetime? I'd probably also throw in how much they keep up with the latest trends as a good indicator too...and maybe how happy they are with what they've got (i.e. whether they're always on the hunt for the next best thing because what they've currently got is old).

    [–]md8716 1 point2 points  (2 children)

    Prenups are usually thrown out by the judge, especially in cases of one sided financial dependency.

    People like you who advocate for prenups always seem to be the least educated on how they actually work out in court.

    [–]ivegotsomequestions0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Then don't bother to get one, I guess?

    If it's not a workable means of protecting the people involved, then get married without the prenup or don't get married. You are on the red pill women sub so you know which option I am going to advocate for.

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

    Prenups imply a lack of trust and a desire to divorce imo. They're also as far from home or car insurance you can get

    Actually, you have a higher chance of getting divorced than getting into a car crash. Way higher. In fact, if the car crash statistics were even close to the divorce statistics, driving cars would be illegal due to their lack of safety.

    [–]snow_angel022968 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    Iirc the divorce statistic is inflated due to serial divorcees....but that being said, what are you counting as car crashes? Just the major ones that get reported on the news? Or including the minor bumper crashes? The insurance has to pay out for both...and while you can control the high speed crashes, you can't control the idiot falling asleep behind the wheel and hitting you. Not to mention, there are people who choose to not report minor bumper to bumper crashes (for various reasons, such as an old car that they don't want insurance to write off and no longer cover or they'd rather just get the $3-500 upfront).

    [–][deleted]  (5 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]snow_angel022968 2 points3 points  (4 children)

      Lol if the man is already thinking of a potential divorce, that automatically makes him a low valued man for marriage. Heck, if we were using planning ahead and risk management levels, not getting married at all would be the smartest choice for men (which of course, goes directly against what us women on this subreddjt want).

      Using car or home insurance to determine risk management is a horrible idea imo. In order to close on a loan, you need to have a certain level of insurance (as determined by the loan holder). That tells you nothing about their risk management levels (unless they've paid for the car/home outright and they decide to pay for that on top of it).

      [–][deleted]  (3 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]snow_angel022968 2 points3 points  (1 child)

        Perhaps this is a cultural thing, but if the guy is already preplanning a divorce (which is essentially what a prenup is), then there is no way in hell I'd be getting married to him, let alone having a child(ren) with him. Becoming a widow is pretty bad (even if you didn't have a choice). Getting divorced and being a single mother? No way you're getting a decent man after this. You'll be better off slamming into the wall a couple times.

        Why are you linking the definition of risk management to me for? I'm well aware what risk management is and again, it's a horrible way to tell whether the man is good at risk management or not. The insurance is required by the bank. As part of the lending process, they are concerned about managing their risk (there's also probably some government regulation there too...but anyways...). Ok, cool. But in this instance, I'm not concerned at all about the bank's controls in risk management. I'm concerned about the guy's. A bank requiring him to have insurance prior to lending him money doesn't tell me if the guy has good risk management at all as he isn't the one to decide whether he wants to get insurance. It's a requirement by the bank. A requirement that he must fulfill before the bank will lend him money.

        [–]WikiTextBot 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Risk management

        Risk management is the identification, assessment, and prioritization of risks (defined in ISO 31000 as the effect of uncertainty on objectives) followed by coordinated and economical application of resources to minimize, monitor, and control the probability and/or impact of unfortunate events or to maximize the realization of opportunities. Risk management’s objective is to assure uncertainty does not deflect the endeavor from the business goals.

        Risks can come from various sources including uncertainty in financial markets, threats from project failures (at any phase in design, development, production, or sustainment life-cycles), legal liabilities, credit risk, accidents, natural causes and disasters, deliberate attack from an adversary, or events of uncertain or unpredictable root-cause. There are two types of events i.e.


        [ PM | Exclude me | Exclude from subreddit | FAQ / Information | Source ] Downvote to remove | v0.24

        [–]plutosheen 0 points1 point  (3 children)

        When feelings justify entering marriage, feelings will also justify exiting.

        It's insulting to her because she has lesser assets.

        [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        When feelings justify entering marriage, feelings will also justify exiting.

        This is a very strong argument not to get married.

        It's insulting to her because she has lesser assets.

        Yea, I guess so...

        [–]ivegotsomequestions0 26 points27 points  (28 children)

        If you don't plan on having children, there's no reason to get married other than religious reasons. Just live together, love each other and commit to one another without the legal entanglement called marriage.

        I can't agree with this being good advice for women. Imo women should look for marriage whether they plan on kids or not, as that is the best means of having a man be fully committed to you in your 50s, 60s, and 70s when your smv is dropping to zero. The difference in social status is also very much worth considering.

        There are still enough men out there who are not fully red pilled and are interested in marriage, some of them feel this way even without intending to have kids. Make sure early on that he has some desire to have a wife someday, and then be the best candidate for the position.

        Agreed that this is the best method:

        Active, varied and passionate sex. Hearty, healthy and filling home cooked meals. And a woman who is pleasant to be around, who doesn't nag, whine, complain, cajole, threaten, bitch, ctiticize or offer ultimatum.

        [–]jackandjill22 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Hm.

        [–]foamster 0 points1 point  (17 children)

        Does every woman deserve to have someone committed to them for 50 years?

        [–]ivegotsomequestions0 22 points23 points  (15 children)

        Deserves means you've missed the point of this whole conversation. Again, thinking of it from a mans pov. I cannot understand why men are crawling all over a thread giving advice to women, feeling free to inject their own self interest into it.

        Women should try to get lifetime commitment because it's a good idea for most of us. Talking about what is deserved is about as nonsensical as if I barged into a trp thread and started asking the guys if they feel like they deserve to sleep with hb8s. Either they get to sleep with them, or they don't and they keep trying. Same here.

        [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        It doesn't have to be men against women or women against men. What a pathetic way to have a marriage, where each side is only trying to take as much as they can get away with.

        Balance is a real possibility.

        [–]ivegotsomequestions0 9 points10 points  (0 children)

        Well, youre either legally married or not. Can't really balance that one out. I'm quite sure you realize that I'm not advocating for selfishness within the actual marriage, but instead building the best possible relationship once the future is secure.

        [–]foamster 0 points1 point  (12 children)

        The thing is, marriage is not for everyone, and I feel like encouraging all women to make it their goal in life leaves many of them heartbroken and disapppinted.

        [–]raisin_warlord 10 points11 points  (0 children)

        So she should settle for being a plate?

        [–]ivegotsomequestions0 4 points5 points  (10 children)

        Mmm, I'm willing to consider that there are some women introverted enough that they'd actually be more content being a spinster aunty as they get old. But the vast majority will want a lifelong relationship, and I truly cannot think of a single reason why they'd like to have the less secure version of that relationship. How does it leave them "heartbroken"?

        [–]foamster -1 points0 points  (9 children)

        I guess what I'm saying is, some women genuinely aren't worth marrying, not that they wouldn't want to be.

        [–]ivegotsomequestions0 1 point2 points  (8 children)

        I think that if a woman is good enough for a ltr, then she's also marriageable, as long as she finds a guy who's not too jaded on marriage.

        [–]foamster 1 point2 points  (7 children)

        If marriage requires a level of trust above an LTR, then why would they have the same expectations of behavior?

        [–]ivegotsomequestions0 2 points3 points  (5 children)

        If a woman ends up somehow in a relationship with a guy who doesn't fully trust her, I would say that she should 1) change herself to become more trustworthy and 2) move on to someone who will give her the benefit of the doubt. If he wants to ltr but not marry her for some other reason, then she should move on and work on that aspect of herself, if it's one that seems generally a problem. Something like "trustworthiness" or "this particular man doesn't trust me" is pretty solvable.

        [–]foamster -2 points-1 points  (4 children)

        1) change herself to become more trustworthy

        It doesn't work that way. We are all the sum of our actions.

        2) move on to someone who will give her the benefit of the doubt

        Are you saying she deserves the benefit of the doubt or that she needs to lower her standards to get what she really deserves?

        [–]Love8Death 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Ding ding ding

        I think that if a woman is good enough for a ltr, then she's also marriageable

        Usually true, but not always

        [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        The word deserve implies something that's earned. So no, not every woman earned/earns 50 years of commitment.

        [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (8 children)

        If you aren't having kids, you should be better able to maintain a higher level of SMV and financial stability on your own. Most men won't just leave you when you age unless you stopped engaging in sex, started nagging etc etc etc.

        So I still think my advice stands for women too.

        [–]ivegotsomequestions0 21 points22 points  (7 children)

        If you aren't having kids, you should be better able to maintain a higher level of SMV and financial stability on your own.

        Yes. But a 50yo woman's good income will not be enough to make her more appealing than 25yos, and neither will her "SMV7-for-a-50yo."

        Most men won't just leave you when you age unless you stopped engaging in sex, started nagging etc etc etc.

        This is why we disagree. I think that men are more capable of making such a move than trp wants to admit, especially if the woman does something like get really ill. And even if they don't break up, they are likely to do what I call "leaving, man style" Where they relegate you to the outer fringes of their harem. An older women has much more power in such a situation as a wife than as a girlfriend.

        There's also a kind of prisoners dilemma if a guy won't marry you, he MIGHT love you every bit as much as a man loves his wife, and just be anti-marriage, but he also MIGHT be refusing marriage because he ultimately doesn't want to spend his life with you. Women aren't mind readers and don't know which it is. There have been enough stories of long time girlfriends breaking up, only for their ex to marry another woman within a year, that there's a decent chance he just doesn't want marriage with HER. If that's the issue, then this is not a lifetime relationship no matter how hard she tries to be the best girlfriend. Best for her to find someone else, while she's young, who really wants her.

        [–]scallopkidEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        It seems to me like you're kind of underestimating the ties of a lifetime spent together. If a legal contract were all that was holding a marriage together after 30 years, that would be pretty sad.

        [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

        This is why we disagree. I think that men are more capable of making such a move than trp wants to admit,

        Is that why some 70-80% of divorces are initiated by women?

        [–]ivegotsomequestions0 15 points16 points  (0 children)

        Marriage is exactly what makes men less likely to break up, or what indicates that men are devoted enough to not want to break up. Among unmarried couples, breakups are initiated on a roughly 50/50 basis by genders. A woman has a much better chance of getting dumped by her bf than divorced by her husband.

        [–]En-Zu 0 points1 point  (3 children)

        Lol are harems the norm now?

        [–]ivegotsomequestions0 10 points11 points  (2 children)

        Men have always had an inclination to juggle (er, spin) multiple women. Especially when they catch the interest of someone who's hotter than the regular partner.

        [–]En-Zu 2 points3 points  (1 child)

        Yeah but only a few guys can actually do that.

        I was kind of in the understanding that the goal of the people in this sub wouldn't be to be top bitch in the harem.

        [–]ivegotsomequestions0 14 points15 points  (0 children)

        Nope, definitely not a good goal. Marriage gives a woman more power, making it harder for a man to unilaterally decide that she will be one of several.

        "Harem" need not be a trp wet dream, and it can happen for men who don't get a ton of female interest. It can involve the 35yo accountant taking a shine to your 45yo boyfriend one year and your boyfriend then indulging in an affair, it can involve your boyfriend traveling for work a lot and having occasional flings with milfs he meets at conferences. It can involve him falling for someone and dating her while not really breaking up with you, because your girlfriend services still benefit him. There are ways for men to put their middle aged partners on the back burner without officially moving on. A married woman is less vulnerable in those situations than a girlfriend.

        [–]tempintheeastbayEndorsed Contributor 9 points10 points  (1 child)

        I'd like to add another reason to get married, albeit a subtle one. In my circles, a man is taken more seriously (as is his relationship of course) if he is married. Having a wife gives him a sense of gravitas and maturity.

        Our friends, family, co-workers, etc. will treat our relationship with a level of respect that a GF/BF relationship, even a 10 year one, just doesn't command. Our respective families and friends will invest more heavily in getting to know the partner, it becomes more normal to bring along said partner on trips etc.

        Marriage is as much a signal to the community as to each other.

        [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

        That was definitely true in the past, but I think it's changed to a great extent and is likely to continue to change.

        [–]givecake 3 points4 points  (4 children)

        I'm interested in hearing from the women about how they go about countering temptations to nag? It seems to be that women typically rely more on emotional manipulation to get certain things done by others, so nagging seems like a normal way to go about achieving that. So how do women counter it?

        I imagine if I was a woman, I'd try to go about things a little scientifically. I'd try the nagging route, and see how it worked. I'd also try the super nice route, and see how that went. I guess I'd end up using the method that works the best.

        [–]scallopkidEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        Well we can probably save you the trouble, haha. Nagging doesn't usually work out, being nice works great for me. Nagging seems to come from this weird expectation that someone should obey you. Do you nag your friends?

        [–]fairydust91 3 points4 points  (1 child)

        If you're nagging, there's a problem. Take the problem to your Captain, not the solution. "Sweetie, will you pleaaaaase do XYZ for me, I can't quite do it myself for ABC reasons and I really need to get it out of the way, its stressing me out/upsetting me/other reason why I feel it should be done" He will either proudly offer a helping hand, or explain to me why it can't be done now/ever/you get the point.

        He is either going to do it, or he's not. 5 months ago my BF started painting the room. He got bored and stopped. Our room has been half painted for months and I literally haven't said a single thing despite how ridiculous it looks. He wants to be the one to do it, so I will let him deal with it whenever and however he wants to. Unless I am planning on painting it myself, which I am not, bc I have never done it before, it is not my place to say a single thing.

        [–]givecake 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Impressive..

        [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Plenty has been written about this in the past. If you want, start a discussion in a new thread.

        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

        [removed]

        [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        :)

        You two will always have something to quarrel over.

        [–][deleted]  (7 children)

        [removed]

        [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (5 children)

        I'm happily married and while I understand why this attitude exists, it makes me a little sad. Happy marriages between mentally healthy and physically attractive people exist. I'm in one and surrounded by them on a regular basis. Marriage has so much potential; it's people who make it negative.

        My husband is the most important person in the world to me, even on our "bad" days. Marriage can be hard but the challenges it's presented have helped me grow into a better person than I ever thought I could be (and so much more).

        [–][deleted]  (2 children)

        [deleted]

          [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

          We aren't religious but Christianity was present in both of our lives growing up (mine more so than his) and probably helped shape our beliefs about marriage.

          the happy marriages you are surrounded by are apart of your church community?

          I was referring to my husband's family, mostly. I'm pretty sure most would identify as 'Christian' but some take it more seriously than others. :)

          His family is really close (and big!) and we spend a lot of time with them. They have traditional values and take family (in general) very seriously. Marriage is extremely important to them; they see it as essential to personal well being and success as well as that of the family overall. Everyone follows traditional gender roles and most of us are happy and thriving in our marriages. I'm beyond thankful to be a part of them and for the ongoing support and guidance from people like my sweet SMIL (and other women relatives).

          [–]sonder_one 1 point2 points  (1 child)

          It makes me sad too, but it's still better to know the truth than to deny it. That's why it's called the Red Pill.

          [–]VigilantRedRoosterModerator[M] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

          OP is endorsed in part because he can explain RP principles without sounding pedantic or condescending. Your writing has a way to go to reach this state so I'm deleting this comment.

          [–]Startthecar27 1 point2 points  (1 child)

          It's my firm opinion that you should have no sex or sexual contact during this period of time

          However, now that hook up culture is the norm, Netflix and chill, etc. You do run the risk of the man deciding to find a better investment of his time and money. I now assume that if we haven't had sex by the 3rd date , she isn't interested, so I move on.

          Not saying this is good , just saying how it is.

          Great post OP.

          [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          If you're clear and upfront about it to begin with, hookup culture will only help you weed out non suitors.

          [–]nawinter77 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          I think there is a lot to be said for tackling life together: showing a potential mate that you are capable of working through any problem the world can throw at the two of you? Priceless. That is what the modern western man needs, a partner willing and capable in navigating life's pitfalls & pleasures.

          [–]Bamfmaiden 1 point2 points  (2 children)

          "mouth shut"?

          I draw the line there. I want a man who loves to talk to me. Long conversations into the night. You want me just to nod the rest of my life?

          [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

          Wow u/bamfmaiden you really know how to take someone's words out of context and skew them to fit your agenda. Here's what I actually wrote. Clearly, I wasn't saying what you allege me to have said.

          And a woman who is pleasant to be around, who doesn't nag, whine, complain, cajole, threaten, bitch, ctiticize or offer ultimata.

          [–][deleted]  (6 children)

          [removed]

          [–]ivegotsomequestions0 9 points10 points  (4 children)

          This is the red pill women sub, why are you writing advice for men here? This belongs in trp or mgtow.

          [–]plutosheen 4 points5 points  (1 child)

          I love how your comment subconsciously implies that the goals for men and women truly are intractable. The decision for/against marriage is a zero sum game for the sexes.

          [–]ivegotsomequestions0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Yeah, it is.

          [–]MissNissa[M] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

          If you see things like this and don't report them, you shouldn't complain about men giving bad advice here.

          [–]ivegotsomequestions0 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          Lol, I'm merely telling him not to give the advice. But fair enough, I can report stuff

          [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

          Very good points.