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FIELD REPORTTrue Alphas Make for Terrible LTRs (or, Why Calibrating Your Picker is So Important) (self.RedPillWomen)

submitted by rprollerEndorsed Contributor

TL;DR: Look for a man whose actions match his words. Don't rely on 'gina tingles to tell you that he's "the one."


Last week, a friend of mine (28M) just broke up with his girlfriend (29F), who is also a friend of mine. She's quite feminine, doesn't curse, and (when they were dating) very supportive of her man--to a fault (I'll explain later). She looked up to him, and generally he's the kind of guy women look to for leadership and guidance. Physically powerful, highly intelligent, dashingly handsome--in other words, a high-value male.

Like many AlphasTM he's got an independent streak. While having your own hobbies and interests is important, a man who says he wants an LTR but does very little to build a future with you is a HUGE red flag. (Read: Trust what he says, but verify with his actions.). And this was certainly the case here.

 

Background

You see, they had been dating for about four years, maybe more. For the majority of that time, he maintained that he

  • never wanted kids.

  • never wanted to be married (and still doesn't).

  • prefers to have the freedom to do whatever he wants, wherever he wants to do it.

  • wants to travel the world and live in as many different exotic countries as he can before he gets too old.

  • avoids signing leases like the plague, preferring to live rent-free, either with his parents or with his (now ex-) girlfriend.

  • prefers intellectual challenge over building a career. His career field has changed at least four times since graduating college.

  • views children as "being tied down" and your life being "over."

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with his mentality and lifestyle. The problem is when he agreed to an LTR without doing anything that indicates he wanted to settle down.

 

She's the diametric opposite. She

  • wanted to be married by 25 or 26, and with a kid or two before 30.

  • wants lots of kids--maybe four or more.

  • has been a schoolteacher ever since she graduated college, where her major was Secondary Education.

  • bought a house in the county where she teaches. Basically, she's settled into one place for awhile.

  • likes the responsibility of being a homeowner, and craves control, stability, and predictability in her life.

 

Where it All Goes to S__t

Over the past year or two, she had become more and more like a bitter shrew.

  • She resented him for having "taken" her best years while giving nothing in return (notice the passive-aggressive language?).

  • She resented him for never paying rent, despite her enthusiastically inviting him to live with her rent-free (covert contract much?).

  • She resented him for never volunteering to help her do chores when he was unemployed, despite her constant nagging and hints that he wasn't housebroken enough.

  • She resented his free spirit, the very thing she fell in love wth him for.

  • She resented the fact that he never wanted kids, and in a fit of frustration even said she'd be willing to never have children if it meant staying with him. And yet she continued to push for marriage and children--to the point where he couldn't take it anymore and broke it off.

On so many occasions, her other female friends and I advised her to leave this relationship because they are too different. That she should find someone whose goals are more similar to her own. I told her that it wasn't fair to be angry at him when he has been honest with her about his intentions the entire time. She didn't take that too well, of course, saying that he made her feel like no other guy has before, and she hoped he would change over the years if she gave up just enough to stay in a relationship with him. 'Gina tingles is like that one friend who tries to convince you to do shots when you're already drunk. Following through is fun for a short while, but the hangover the next morning is anything but. Don't rely just on how he makes you feel as a predictor for successful LTRs.

While I agree that women should adapt to their partners' habits and lifestyles to a certain extent, there's no negotiating on mutually exclusive things like being married or having children. And even if one side did "cave in" to their partner's wishes in this regard, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that it's not going to work in the long-run.


If you're reading this and thinking, "Good golly, that guy sounds like my man!" don't do anything drastic just yet. Evaluate (as objectively as you can) what he has said and compare that to what he has done. If they match, and his words/actions match up to your goals, there's no reason to break things off for that reason, especially if it's going well. If, on the other hand, you're grasping for straws when you're trying to remember what he's done to support his claim that he wants an LTR, I would seriously reconsider whether you want to stay in this relationship.

 

You only have so many "good years" to give before your chances of finding an LTR-worthy man dwindle to nothing. Don't waste them.


[–][deleted]  (30 children)

[deleted]

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 5 points6 points  (17 children)

To achieve that you'd have to get rid of the hook up culture and return to the days of sex within marriage only. It will probably happen some day, just not anytime soon.

[–]tfresca 4 points5 points  (16 children)

Sex always happened outside of marriage. It was just way more low-key. Often at least one of the people involved in the sed was married.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (15 children)

Yeah it's a culture thing. Gotta bring back slut shaming and manwhore shaming. "He's a dashing rogue! Do not get involved with this fellow."

[–]rprollerEndorsed Contributor[S] 2 points3 points  (12 children)

manwhore shaming

I'm very conflicted about this. On one hand, I'd be wary of dating a guy with a super-high n-count, because diseases. Also the higher potential for crazy ex-girlfriends coming back to haunt him. OTOH, a guy with a low n-count would make me wonder why he isn't able to land lots of women. Outside of religious reasons, I'd be very suspect of his value if he claims to be a virgin or close to it.

[–]fruguy 0 points1 point  (11 children)

What's low for you?

[–]rprollerEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (10 children)

I would scale it to his age. I don't have an exact number, but for example, I would be very suspicious of a guy who has only had like 5 sexual partners by the age of 30. But I would not have the same expectation for a guy under 16.

[–]Wallstreet3 0 points1 point  (7 children)

Why?

[–]rprollerEndorsed Contributor[S] 1 point2 points  (6 children)

Outside of religious or medical reasons, a 30-year old guy with a low n-count indicates to me that women don't find his SMV to be very high. I'm not wasting my time and youth on someone with low SMV.

I would not hold a low n-count against a young guy (15-18) simply because boys mature at a slower rate than women, and wouldn't have had as many opportunities to get sexual experience--outside of masturbation.

[–][deleted]  (5 children)

[removed]

    [–]epp56 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    what if he's just been in a string of LTR's?

    [–]wynterfox 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Maybe you should include the factor of hookups to LTRs ratio.

    [–]epp56 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I think slut shaming still happens a good amount (perhaps less openly), at least, we still judge promiscuous women far more than promiscuous men

    [–]glawkneintehn 3 points4 points  (9 children)

    I don't know if "becoming alpha" is struggle to men. The only struggle I can think of is that I can't show my hopeless romantic side. But then again, that's a good thing because when I do two things happen. 1 I lose the girl because suddenly it gets creepy and 2 I detract from the time and energy that I was dedicating to my personal goals by being constantly involved in that hopeless romanticism.

    [–]bowie747 10 points11 points  (0 children)

    Strongly disagree that it's not a struggle to be alpha. 90% are not natural born alpha and have to grind every single day to get there.

    [–]Steigertochter1 3 points4 points  (7 children)

    why can you not show this side? afraid it will make you weak? Why would it take away from your time and how?

    [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

    My theory is that women are generally more solipsistic or self-centered than men to benefit their kids or potential kids. So when men show too much weakness in a relationship, especially verbally, women take it as a problem with themselves, like they are not enough to make that man happy. Women generally lose faith in relationships faster and that's why you have women divorcing more and men killing themselves more after divorce. The more emotional intimacy a man risks having in a romantic relationship, the more he gambles with being both happier or ending up depressed and suicidal, to a greater degree than women, because he is simply more wired to be the romantic.

    [–]glawkneintehn -1 points0 points  (5 children)

    /u/2Lazy2Cook666 is onto something but not entirely.

    I'm going to explain this backwards. I've never maintained a platonic relationship with a female, it just does not work. Yes I fuck everyone I meet in my mind first, I'm a male it's what I think about. But when it comes down to saying ok this is a platonic relationship, the idea of sex doesn't even cross my mind. I think this really gets the hamster wheels turning and it really bothers them that my thoughts and actions demonstrate absolutely no sexual interest despite the logically agreed upon terms of the friendship. Then come their sexual advances and they all go right over my head which just furthers the intensity of the situation. Think of it as reverse friendzone.

    Then when all else fails they go kamikaze and go straight for an overt unavoidable sexual advance and then I feel dumb as a brick, realize wow they must really be into me. (when really they're just trying to shush the hamster by proving that I actually am sexually attracted to them) Sex happens, feelz take over. Since I'm already good friends with them I already feel the beginning of a LTR type scenario and show the hopeless romantic side, take them out on a "real date" or try to do the cliche stuff with them, and I do that too fast because I already feel like I've been in a relationship since we already are friends. Then the motherfucking Berlin wall comes down faster than I can blink. Their regret kicks in hardcore and "we should've just kept this as friends" etc.. Like yeah no shit.. that's what I was doing until you fucked it up... So those were the BP days.

    The last time around I was crushed, really destroyed from the inside out because on repeat this would happen. The social conditioning in my mind was UNREAL and I just couldn't comprehend. This experience not once or twice but like TEN times is what eventually turned me onto the /r/TheRedPill.

    So now the /r/TheRedPill experience for me has just become an effort to manifest that mentality into a usable tool that helps me navigate the sexual market. I was friendzoning all these girls while I thought I was the one being friendzoned. I'm not particularly attractive and don't have a huge beef whistle but it kept happening.

    EDIT: Forgot the second part of your question. Because then I focus any and all of my energy into it. I go hardcore oneitis and every other aspect of my life suffers since I can't get "that one" out of my head. Basically the male hamster wheel hahaha.

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children)

    I spent like a half an hour writing a reply to this and the bot deleted it. Which was depressing. But I will summarize what I remember from the post.

    I think hookup culture has made women more jaded and defensive towards men who are more open about their emotions and romantic. It seems like women are generally more likely to think the average male who is being emotional or a pushover in some instance will always be that way, where they can sometimes blow things out of proportion because they are projecting a female brain structure onto a male one. When women talk about their problems or show emotion they are generally coping. But male coping is generally more in action and honoring the future, so when men talk about their problems or show emotion they are promising protection and/or provision to some degree, whether in platonic or romantic relationships, because evolutionary speaking, men cannot risk showing too much weakness to the wrong person. So in the case of a public show of weakness, say you have a male motivational speaker talking about depression, the context isn't just coping, the context is "I'm strong. You can count on me but don't mess with me." The context of showing weakness or negative emotion can also be, "I need help." Or "Cut me some slack." But that doesn't take away from the general promise of action.

    This projection of a female brain onto a male one may have something to do with women trying to make the average male player become loyal; from my view, this is probably somewhat biological and somewhat cultural; where culture = flexible biology or mental flexibility. The women you were involved with might've been more experienced with sex and relationships than you just because they are women and can generally get those things more easily than men, just not necessarily with quality, where their experience was negative and they were jaded, and thus less mentally feminine, and thus less trusting of men. Younger women might be less jaded towards men who come across as more romantic, but if you are also more attracted to intelligence than the average male on top of being a romantic, that will limit your dating pool even more. I think hook-up culture pushes women more than what they are biologically inclined to, to look for commitment from the wrong men, due to higher in-group preference in females and hook-up culture being the mainstream romance culture, with player-type males having higher "social proof" among women as a result of that, low self-esteem as a result of not gaining sufficient commitment, and maybe other unknown reasons.

    [–]VigilantRedRoosterModerator[M] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    New accounts are filtered by the automoderator to protect our sub against trolls and spammers. Anyone whose legit post is filtered can contact the mod team to get it manually approved. We check periodically for hung posts but if one seems to be missing for hours send us a message, we are here to help.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Okay, thanks!

    [–]glawkneintehn 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    The mod says they may be able to revive your original post so look into that.

    First paragraph agreed.

    The women you were involved with might've been more experienced with sex and relationships than you

    The average woman is more experienced with sex and relationships than the average man, this kinda proves the 80/20 rule and thus you are also correct.

    Younger women might be less jaded towards men who come across as more romantic

    Thus all the cute middle school stories lol.

    I think hook-up culture pushes women more than what they are biologically inclined to, to look for commitment from the wrong men

    Hearing how some of my female friends got into their relationship, yep, pretty pathetic haha and ofc it didn't work out, and they ended up wanting to sleep with me after for rebound sex.

    low self-esteem as a result of not gaining sufficient commitment

    ding ding ding if I had a dollar everytime I've had a conversation of

    "but why tho?"

    "because I have low self-esteem"

    with white western women, I'd be rolling in money.

    [–]Gardrothard 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Some girls are unable to understand that some guys will never commit, and keep on waiting or blaming him of being a D. He is not, it is obvious he just doesn't want to commit/marry/etc. Then if you choose to put your head into the sand, it's your choice, not his fault.

    Yeah, to the point that they make a 6 season show based on women hamstering that. :)

    [–]btcthinker 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Guy here and I'm wondering: is he really Alpha? He doesn't pay rent, has periods of unemployment and has no life goals (i.e. switching careers all the time)... I feel like that's the opposite of Alpha.

    I assumed that an Alpha would be at the top of his game (although not red pill): successful career (or on the way to a successful career), highly independent, focused on himself.

    [–][deleted] 18 points19 points  (6 children)

    I can't stand alphas. When I think of an alpha, I think of a smug, extroverted party guy who needs constant stimulation from new experiences.

    I like sigmas: confident, successful LONERS. I like men who love solitude, who don't care about what is popular, who don't need drugs and crazy activities to enjoy life. These men get along best with me, a confident INTJ who likes what she likes.

    My ideal relationship isn't Captain-FO with constant experiences and new things. Mine is me + Sigma male, very opinionated, self-assured, self motivated individuals who happen to enjoy spending time together. There is no need to lead for him or submit for me; it just flows.

    I consider myself a RPW and I have this kind of relationship with my man. Just want to let other RPWs know there are options other than C-FO that don't involve being with beta males.

    [–]VigilantRedRoosterModerator[M] 8 points9 points  (2 children)

    My ideal relationship isn't Captain-FO with constant experiences and new things. Mine is me + Sigma male, very opinionated, self-assured, self motivated individuals who happen to enjoy spending time together. There is no need to lead for him or submit for me; it just flows.

    It would be awesome if you were to expand this into a FR or theory post. I agree that many relationship models are underexplored on RPW, and Sigma Game is one of the more useful examples.

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    Thank you so much :D. I'm not sure I'd be qualified for that, but I definitely agree with desiring more discussion on relationship models on this sub other than Captain-First Officer.

    [–]rprollerEndorsed Contributor[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Maybe start out with some field reports and go from there. I'd love to see some posts on this dynamic!

    [–]rprollerEndorsed Contributor[S] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

    Mine's a sigma too :)

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Awesome ;) :).

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Thank you for this comment! My exact ideal relationship.

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 12 points13 points  (0 children)

    This post is awesome!!! So true.

    There's a saying - he gets married hoping she'll never change, she gets married hoping he will.

    Both expectations are unrealistic and lead to heartache.

    When I read your first set of bullet points, what struck me is that this guy wants to live the life of a frat boy until he's too old to do so. He never wants to settle down. He's clearly not marriage material.

    A man who has a steady job, owns a house, signs leases lol, wants marriage and children etc etc etc will never be that free spirited frat perpetual frat boy. He can't be. He can't be a free spirit and settled down at the same time.

    Calibration is essential. It's about having realistic standards. It's about finding and maintaining attraction within the context of stability. Attraction and stability aren't friends but they can live together if you're conscious enough to maintain both at their desired levels.

    [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    I had a friend with a boyfriend like that. Except, which was even more heart-breaking, she didn't turn into a shrew but stayed her own sweet and loving self, thinking he would change while he gave her nothing in return. I told her so many times that he had no incentive to change, since she made life so easy for him and gave him everything he wanted. Eventually after many years she saw the light and broke up with him, but she still finds it hard to move on. So very good advice OP.

    [–]linsann0310 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    I gave one year to a guy like that but I'm so bull headed that it broke up fast in the end his life dreams didn't match mine at all. It was still really hard! But let me say my now husband we totally fit our dream of where we wanted to live and what we wanted to build there was spot on! Only thing was he said he didn't want kids but changed his mind. We now have three and even ended up living where we wanted a lot sooner then I thought! Now we just have to build our life here lol!!

    Point is don't throw away years to someone that wont ever fit you! There is someone out there that will end up being a way better match. I'm so much happier with my husband then I was with the other guy even though their were more sparks at the beginning with the other guy. What I've got now 8 years in is just the best!!

    [–]palmettomom2609 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    I totally giggled like a child at " 'gina tingles"! It's so true though!

    [–]sharontravels 4 points5 points  (7 children)

    I totally agree that actions speak louder than words. But it sounds like his words were true, but she refused to listen. What I have found in my life, is that men are honest. They don't sugar coat things, they say what they mean.

    This post has actually made me a little confused about what characteristics are of an Alpha Male. The constant changing of careers, being unemployed, and not paying rent kind of indicate that he's not truly an Alpha. Or am I wrong? I found this post about the characteristics of an Alpha Male, which is what I always thought was Alpha. http://chadhowsefitness.com/2012/11/25-characteristics-of-an-alpha-male

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 4 points5 points  (2 children)

    Alpha male is all about sexual attractiveness to females. It's about how many tingles he can inspire within a larger number of women's panties. It has nothing to do with having direction in life.

    Having direction is a quality of stability. Stability is attractive to the long term plan. It does little to nothing for the short term thinking needed for immediate arousal. A degree of chaos, free spirit, unpredictability, anticipation etc is what's needed for sexual arousal. That's what being an alpha is all about. It's about cultivating those traits that make a man sexually desirable. However, the very traits that make a man attractive from a sexual standpoint, make him unattractive from a relationship standpoint.

    We usually hear the reverse. The BB man who is golden from a relationship point of view but is sexually unattractive for this very reason. In this wonderful post u/rproller is offering advice to women - don't rely solely on your sexual attraction or tingles to determine a good candidate for a LTR because the very traits that make him sexually appealing, make him unappealing for a relationship.

    As with so many things in life, you need a balance.

    [–]sharontravels 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    So when we talk about Alpha male in this subreddit, this is what we're talking about. I guess that's where I'm confused because this is exactly what I don't want.

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I'm confused because this is exactly what I don't want.

    I'm confused regarding your confusion. What is it that you don't want? What do you want?

    [–]rprollerEndorsed Contributor[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    not truly an Alpha

    This is a fair objection. He doesn't have a whole lot of direction. I guess what I meant by "alpha" here is that he is selfish and does what he wants without taking her into consideration. But you're right, he's not the best example of what an Alpha is.

    [–]Steigertochter1 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    "What I have found in my life, is that men are honest. They don't sugar coat things, they say what they mean." to my experience, no. they are just better at hiding their true intentions and them acting on them.

    [–]Kiddingyoself 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    This sounds like an attractive child who refuses to grow up, and who is a bit of a loser, & not an "Alpha", to me.. but I don't know him, and everyone has an opinion.

    Having said that, if a lady wants a LTR with a man who is truly in high demand, she's probably kidding herself to think he's ready before at least his late 30s. Lets say hypothetically this 28 year old male was an alpha, truly remarkable, man. He'd be able to attract the majority of early 20s women for at least a few more years. If he doesn't want to settle down, and he takes good care of himself (and isn't a freeloading, do nothing, loser), he'd be attracting the most attractive women at their best looking for maybe a decade more.

    Talk about barking up the wrong tree.

    [–]sunkindonut149 0 points1 point  (4 children)

    What instrument does he play? Or is he a rapper and / or producer?

    This individual sounds like a fill-in musician (guy that accompanies your band on tour) in my world, and, to most women I know who are looking for a baby father, a fuccboi.

    Although I'm asexual, I am still exposed to dating dynamics because of hobby culture. Recruiting personnel for shit tier metal bands is like wading through a vast sea of fuccbois on tinder.

    [–]rprollerEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

    Are you sure you're commenting on the right post? No one here mentioned anything about playing instruments...

    [–]sunkindonut149 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    No I can detect it on the guys description. This type of person is very familiar to me as a musician.

    [–]rprollerEndorsed Contributor[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    I'm sorry to say that while musicians can and do have this kind of description, you are way off here! The guy I'm talking about is not a musician.

    [–]sunkindonut149 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I stand corrected.

    [–][deleted]  (3 children)

    [deleted]

    [–]rprollerEndorsed Contributor[S] 4 points5 points  (2 children)

    I think you're misunderstanding what I wrote.

    Are you saying that she couldn't have had this guy for life if she had not been a 'shrew'?

    They both wanted mutually exclusive things out of life. She wanted lots of kids, he wanted none. She wanted to be married, but he did not. You can't have kids and not have kids at the same time, and the same goes for marriage.

    The reason a woman breaks up with a man often the same reason she fell for him.

    He broke up with her, not the other way around.

    This most often comes down to a well paying demanding job.

    While that may be the case for lots of women who feel "shorted," this was not the case here. I apologize for not clarifying. He has had very unstable employment, jumping from one entry-level job to the next. At most he worked part-time. [EDIT: He could not have been making more than $30k/year, and that's being generous. She earned at least twice as much as he did.]

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–]rprollerEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Ah, gotcha. Thanks for the clarification!