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THEORYThe Case for the Greater Beta (self.RedPillWomen)

submitted by [deleted]

Mr. Dunham is a greater beta. I've said it before in discussions and have received strange reactions from men and women in the sub. One man even private messaged me to tell me I shouldn't be bad mouthing my husband! Well, he is a greater beta, and that's not a bad thing. I don't want an alpha, I wouldn't be happy with one. Here is my case for the Greater Beta.

What is a Greater Beta?

At TRP, beta is synonymous with “b!tch boy,” or “pu$$y”, while alpha is synonymous with “god”. So I understand the confusion when women come here and they think they want an alpha or suddenly feel like the person they're with isn't good enough. I found myself facing this apparent dilemma almost 3 years ago. I had been married six months before discovering the red pill and I'm reading all of the material in the manosphere thinking to myself, “Oh my God, I married a loser. Mr. Dunham is a beta b!tch.” However, once I applied the tenets of Fascinating Womanhood and The Surrendered Wife, I began to notice a change occurring in him too, just as Mrs. Andelin and Mrs. Doyle predicted!

Greater Betas are the reluctant leaders. They have leadership qualities and abilities but don't vie for that spot. If it's given to them they'll accept the position as leader. They have certain beta qualities but balance them out with enough alpha qualities so they aren’t spineless. Now while some men are born alpha and some men are can become alphas, the same is true with Greater Betas. My husband, before I began my RPW journey, was a beta. He listened and followed my directions without question. He didn’t argue and rarely challenged me and if he did, I made sure he was sorry. However, when I fixed myself and my attitude, Mr. Dunham also changed (a story for another time!)

The reason my husband followed my orders is because it's in his nature to be agreeable and go-with-the-flow than disrupt the waters. Some personality traits that I have observed in Mr. Dunham that prove to me he's GB are as follows:

  • Reluctant Leader: when I moved out of the driver's seat, he sat down. But I had to move, he didn't ask me to.

  • Has Leadership qualities, can rally a team, can lead a team: he does this at work, he's always been the secondhand man for any boss, has been the assistant branch manager at a bank and at a cell phone store.

  • Has the ability to be aggressive and stand his ground, but chooses the situations carefully. My sister’s fiancée never backs down from a fight (literally, he's broken bones in his hand fighting before) whereas my husband won't pick up bait and won't bait a guy into fighting. However when a fellow salesman he works with encroached on his territory, Mr. Dunham came down on him severely and raised hell at his office.

  • Goes into autopilot and will ask me the dumbest questions, “It's 9:30, should we get our coats on to leave?” “Should I feed the kids breakfast now?” and I have to remind him to make decisions himself

  • At the beginning of my RPW journey, he told me he didn't want to be the leader and wanted to make decisions with me equally, he wasn't the right person to make decisions (this was during the phase of me practicing, “whatever you think!” and he was despairing over the fact I wouldn't make a decision for him.)

  • He will totally beta out (and here I mean wuss out) with his ex-wife about decisions concerning his two boys with her.

    For me and for probably many women, the GB is enough of a leader for us. Mr. Dunham goes out of his way for a compromise with me (even though I adhere to the ‘defer to his decision’ rule) on things, he passes comfort tests and some shit tests (he's the king of amused mastery without knowing what it is), he's charming, witty, funny, and can be arrogant, but just enough to make me want him, not enough for it to bother me. Mr. Dunham is the perfect middle ground for me.

    If you think your SO is too spineless to stand and you need to find a Chad, first fix yourself because your SO may blossom into a GB. The GB is the perfect mix of alpha/beta traits and will satisfy women more than they may actually think. If you find the alpha personality too domineering and the beta too revolting, you may just be after a Greater Beta.

    ~Sadie


[–]AllTheIstsCis 18 points19 points  (1 child)

I always referred to them as subtle alphas, it shows more security to not feel the need to always take charge/ confront each situation. Excellent points.

[–]Firstmatewifey 10 points11 points  (0 children)

This.

She described my husband in many ways, except instead of lack of confidence in decision making, my husband finds it to be a chore to make every last little decision and prefers I do some deciding to free him up to focus on more important things.

He is making the decision to delegate. That's Alpha, not beta.

[–]ragnarockette4 Stars 10 points11 points  (0 children)

because it's in his nature to be agreeable and go-with-the-flow

Hit the nail on the head here!

My husband is a great leader in our marriage and can get heated about some issues, but generally is a friendly person who likes to keep the peace. It is amazing to be married to a man who can get along with anyone, anywhere, any time. Everyone who meets him likes him immediately. He gets promoted often. He's phenomenal at sales. People naturally give him responsibility because he is so reliable and open.

I've dated moody hot-head types before and it gets absolutely exhausting trying to navigate life with someone who always has to dominate every situation (and can be a real jerk in the process).

[–]TankVet 7 points8 points  (6 children)

I don't know, I think you're describing a mature person, at heart an alpha, with this post.

I mean, once you're a grownup you realize how messy and costly and dangerous fights are. People carry guns and knives and shit. I've got more to live for than acting like a brain-damaged chimpanzee defending my territory and get myself stabbed over a parking space.

I also believe that no man is rightfully a leader in every situation. In my hospital, I'm the man. When it comes to planning a camping trip with my buddies, I am a terrible organizer. It's like fixing stuff around the house, there's some stuff I do well and some stuff I could fuck up and trying to do everything on the grounds of "being alpha" is just stupid.

Reality and what I read in TRP are often quite different worlds.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (4 children)

I also believe that no man is rightfully a leader in every situation.

Yep. Most of humanity's past is in hunter-gatherer tribes where leadership was more skill-based than dominate male-based.

[–]TankVet 2 points3 points  (3 children)

Exactly! I'm a doctor. I'm intensely trained and experienced in a very specific skill set. I can't fly an airplane or beat up Yoel Romero or ice skate, but I can do surgery. It's absurd to expect a "natural leader" to own every conceivable situation.

[–]hot-breakfast 2 points3 points  (2 children)

The single most alpha man I have ever met is homeless. He isn't mentally deranged, he just approaches every single circumstance in life "without compromise." He has many illegitimate children, so in that sense he is a fabulous evolutionary success. He is so alpha that he is incompatible with modern society. He will eventually be found dead in a ditch.

[–]TankVet 2 points3 points  (1 child)

But that's just it. "Alpha" to me is the top of the food chain, whereas this guy's at the bottom. Alpha isn't being the angry chimp shrieking and swinging, it's being the man you want to be.

If a guy told me he broke his hand in a fight, I used to think "you should learn how to throw a punch." Now it's more like, "what the hell did you let happen that you had to throw a punch?"

I know too many people who take pride in the childish ideas of "never compromise" or "never back down." I'd rather get what I want than take the hardest line and lose it all. I'd also rather live my life with responsibility and humility than deceit and arrogance. I'm a lot happier with the former options.

[–]hot-breakfast 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Unfortunately Alpha and Beta, if they exist at all, are not up for you or me to decide. They are dictated by supposed millennia of genetic programming. Our hindbrains give us attraction cues for traits that are not only obsolete, but sometimes harmful.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

no man is rightfully a leader in every situation

Very true! We all have strengths and weaknesses.

Reality and what I read in TRP are often quite different worlds.

I can agree

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Great post!

If all we wanted out of life was sex, we'd be looking for the purest alpha and nothing else. But most people want other things too, so other qualities are necessary as well.

Someone who's a greater beta as you describe it isn't "disgusting" to women, at least not to the many women I know. Such a man is the old fashioned family man that so many women want. I know that not everyone was happy back in the day, but many were happy and those who weren't happy, wasn't because of this.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

old fashioned family man

Yes! This is definitely Mr. Dunham

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 8 points9 points  (3 children)

Quality post Mrs Dunham. You did it again!

I think that a lot of men and women who come to TRP get confused by this confusion. The whole alpha/beta thing is strictly a sexual dynamic. However, not all that's good for sex is good for relationships and not all that's good for relationships is good for sex.

The good news is that balance is attainable. One can have good sex and a strong relationship. In fact, the balanced version is more attainable than the "sex God" version.

[–]VigilantRedRoosterModerator 6 points7 points  (1 child)

In fact, the balanced version is more attainable sustainable than the "sex God" version.

FTFY, otherwise agree with what you say, including the Quality Post part.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes. It's more sustainable as well.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I thank you!

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Being the second hand man at work isn't necessarily a beta quality. I am the low man on the totem pole at my job. My boss works more hours than me and gets paid less.

My boss's boss works more hours than me and also gets paid more than me. He's slaving away making money and making my job easier while I'm at the gym.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A good point. Didn't think about it like that.

[–]HelloNeo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Just like the Kinsey Scale, I believe a similar scale exists for alpha/beta traits. Seems like your SO is leaning more towards the center while in that beta area.

[–]teaandtalk4 Stars 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Has the ability to be aggressive and stand his ground, but chooses the situations carefully. My sister’s fiancée never backs down from a fight (literally, he's broken bones in his hand fighting before) whereas my husband won't pick up bait and won't bait a guy into fighting. However when a fellow salesman he works with encroached on his territory, Mr. Dunham came down on him severely and raised hell at his office.

I appreciate this so much! My husband is the same: he won't get into a fight over something stupid, but when he needs to, he is fierce. I love love love that about him. Being 'super alpha' sounds fun in lots of ways, but it's often not the best way to navigate the world we live in.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm glad it rang true to you. Thank you!

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Great post! I think you really drove home the point that different relationship dynamics work for different women. There is no one-size-fits-all perfect mate for all of womankind.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you!

[–]RedPillWonder 1 point2 points  (1 child)

First, great post! Thank you, Sadie.

Mr. Dunham is a greater beta. I've... received strange reactions from men and women in the sub. One man even private messaged me to tell me I shouldn't be bad mouthing my husband!

And

So I understand the confusion when women come here and they think they want an alpha

I've been seeing this a lot here. Women (and some men) who post here and use the terms generally as:

Alpha = good or best and complimentary and

Beta = "bad" or lesser or a put down.

But then you read the sidebar and it refers to some beta qualities being good for an LTR and some alpha qualities good, while other beta and alpha qualities are less desirable in a long term, committed relationship.

I started to write a post about this, and as you noted, you can have all kinds of different definitions of Alpha. I clicked through a few links on TRP awhile back, and you've got some defining Alpha as a state of mind, others applying only to sex/sexual strategy, some using it as an overall and complimentary term in general (as in, "I'm very Alpha!" Or as some use it here, "My man is Alpha!" Or "He's so beta!") and use those two terms as one good, the other bad or lesser. And others using it purely in terms of the animal kingdom and being dominant or the leader of the pack, etc.

Of course, there's plenty of overlap, but you get all this confusion. The same with beta. It's used here at RPW as having good and bad connotations, but people come in and use it mostly as a put down, and it's easy to see how it creates confusion.

For example, in the case of Alpha, you may have a guy who scores lots of women, and he's great at seducing and screwing them. He sucks at almost everything else in life, though. He doesn't have the courage to be an entrepreneur, or the ambition to move up the corporate ladder or excel at whatever he does work-wise. His confidence (other than getting women) isn't anything to brag about, he's not a leader in other situations, but he's awesome at getting the girls. It's hard to call this guy Alpha.

On the flip side, you can have a successful guy who is off the charts great at life in almost every respect. He's confident, he leads, he's dominates his field, he can get almost perfect scores on most people's list of Alpha traits except... he sucks at dating and getting women. It's like his confidence in this area plummets, he's awkward around them, etc. Is he Alpha? Or Beta? (if one is using those terms as either generally good/preferable or bad/lesser).

I have friends and acquaintances like both men.

And it's why I think it'd be better to either settle into the "Alpha is good" and "Beta not as good" definition the way most people use it here or put more emphasis (as you just did) in the Beta can be equally as good and push back against the "put downs" when one uses the term beta in that way or use alpha as a general compliment.

When using and thinking on the terms, I have a tendency toward alpha is good/better and beta less so, and I have to remind myself that RPW sometimes uses beta in a good and complimentary sense.

If one goes the route of alpha is better, it'd be helpful to more clearly define it and potentially include current "beta" traits into the alpha definition, and make alpha (if one is defining or using it as "better" than beta) something one has on a scale, where alpha is the "goldilocks" on that scale.

For instance: diffident (beta) confident (alpha) narcissist (too extreme).

But I'm old fashioned. We used to just be called men. :-)

We can be good at being a man or bad at it in various respects, but it's got to where we have to put labels on various aspects of it and that can create a lot of confusion, especially when there's not a clear cut definition of alpha and beta.

I liken it to political labels. They can be useful, to a degree, but also inaccurate at times. If you have a Republican who is solidly conservative across the board, but takes a liberal position on the environment and another issue, is he or she a RINO? (Republican in Name Only, a "wishy-washy" conservative, or other titles?)

Or a liberal in every way except he or she takes a conservative position on the second amendment and business regulation, does that make him or her not liberal overall? It seems like this with the whole alpha and beta argument.

But you're fighting an uphill battle with the culture IMO, because most people use alpha and beta as "good and bad" or at least "better and not as good" in most instances.

Which is one reason I favor defining alpha as the "ideal" on a scale, where you can have too much of something or not enough, and alpha is "right on" where a man needs to be.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But I'm old fashioned. We used to just be called men.

Love it! Thanks for your thoughtful response. Is true there is like one thousand different ways to look at alpha/beta and define them.

[–]RainbowKitty77 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I love this. I feel like it more suits who my bf is.

[–]Shady_Love 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I heard about redpill a while back and always saw it as repulsive to just find a woman and command them into the person you want. I avoided it, and then I saw this sub mentioned the other day and dropped by. Seeing this post here makes me feel better about the balance of power in relationships.

Co-leadership is the best of both worlds when I'm not invasive/egotistical enough to make every decision, nor am I beta enough to just go along with whatever someone says. Very few women out there exist that are mindful enough for a FLR (female-led-relationship), and very few men out there exist for the opposite.

It might also root in the fact that I switch in d/s relationships and am comfortable in both but it's draining from the top and stagnates from the bottom. Switching allows the ebb and flow of what each person wants, and it has more structure and input from each side. That ends up branching into other things.

I appreciate the write-up.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[deleted]

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Its on my "to watch" list. Thank you for the link!