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THEORYFemininity isn't superficial (self.RedPillWomen)

submitted by KittenLoves_Endorsed Contributor

How many times have you heard some variation of these things? Feminine women don't drink! Feminine women don't swear! Feminine women only wear dresses and skirts!

These things are all well and good, but these things are not, in themselves, feminine. Taking this kind of advice -- eliminating drinking, refusing to swear, and only wearing dresses -- and expecting to become truly feminine is the equivalent of putting on a white coat and expecting to become a doctor. Sure, most doctors wear white coats; but while that is a marker of their status, it isn't what makes them a doctor. And neither do these superficial things make a woman feminine. Perhaps even more importantly, just as a doctor is still a doctor without a white coat, a feminine woman is still a feminine woman in pants with a glass in her hand.

Then what is femininity?

Femininity is a mode of being. It is more action than presentation. Does that mean you should ignore advice to not drink, not swear, and to wear dresses? That's up to you. The wonderful thing about femininity is that it doesn't require faithful observance to specific personality traits. Maybe you're a beer connoisseur, maybe you think dresses aren't practical, maybe you don't want to censor yourself when it isn't necessary. You don't have to, in order to be feminine, as long as you are able to fulfill the most important parts -- the things that are not superficial. Be positive, empathetic, kind, supportive, submissive, open, and loving.


[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 23 points24 points  (1 child)

I agree. Clothes may help you get into a feminine mindset but clothing alone is not feminine. Drinking to excess and swearing aren't nice behaviors for anyone.

It's easy to start by a RPW journey by looking at the trappings and deciding that your make up and pretty dresses will somehow turn you into a feminine woman. It's simply untrue. For some people, these things may help cultivate a feminine mindset, but it's important to remember that they are a strategy not an outcome.

My tattoo is never going to appear feminine but it was a wedding gift to my husband. That level of submission to him is one of the more feminine gifts I could give, even if ink and needles are considered anti-feminine by most.

If something makes you feel feminine then by all means go for it. However the ultimate goal should be to live femininity not to wear it.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I have a property of tattoo as a tramp stamp best honeymoon gift ever. Hubby loves it too. Still feel feminine on the inside too!

[–]xelaandra23 8 points9 points  (0 children)

This is a great post. Thank you!

I don't think being feminine is about wearing dresses, not drinking beer, not swearing, etc. You could do all of those things and yet not be feminine at all.

Being feminine is definitely something that shines through one's personality...it's being positive, empathetic, etc., as you said. :) You can wear no makeup and dress like a hipster yet still easily encapsulate these traits.

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (12 children)

I don’t agree. If you present two photos one of a women in a dress and one dressed like a tomboy and ask people which is feminine they will say the women in a dress. You can call yourself whatever you want but things like cursing are behaviors and that’s part of being feminine so is acting like a drunken fool. Both things aren’t considered feminine.

[–]teaandtalk4 Stars 29 points30 points  (3 children)

If you present two photos one of a women in a dress and one dressed like a tomboy and ask people which is feminine they will say the women in a dress.

Yes, but they may be wrong. Outward appearances are one thing, but actual femininity is another. If the woman in the dress is overbearing, naggy, rude, cruel, and callous, and the woman dressed like a tomboy is kind, sweet, yielding, gentle, supportive and pleasant, then you've just made a very wrong assumption based on their choice of clothing.

Who's more feminine: a woman in dirty jeans and boots, helping her husband with calving, or a well-dressed lady berating a cashier for being too slow with the checking out of her products?

Or, back to the OP - who's more of a real doctor, the quiet young man helping someone who's having a heart attack, or an actor in a white coat?

Seriously, don't judge a book by its cover, that's a very basic lesson we should've all learned as children.

[–]HobbesTheBrave 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Seriously, don't judge a book by its cover, that's a very basic lesson we should've all learned as children.

The size of the dog, it can tell something about the dog. It's fur, it can say something as well. Fat dogs, for instance, they say something completely different compared to the fitter dogs, wouldn't you agree?

[–]teaandtalk4 Stars 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Sure, and I'm not saying that outer appearance doesn't reflect some inner values. But if the beautiful, slim, glossy dog immediately bites when you reach out a hand, and the fat/scruffy dog is gentle and kind, you'll wish you hadn't made such a quick judgement.

[–]HobbesTheBrave -1 points0 points  (0 children)

But if the beautiful, slim, glossy dog immediately bites when you reach out a hand, and the fat/scruffy dog is gentle and kind, you'll wish you hadn't made such a quick judgement.

I've met enough of both kinds to know that the former dog's bite is far worse. And it's kindness is also better. The latter is too anxious for my taste.

But it is true what you say. Which one feeds you, nourishes you, helps you, is there with you? What good is it to have a dog which does nought but eats sugar, plays with pretty ribbons and cares for its own fur?

[–]KittenLoves_Endorsed Contributor[S] 12 points13 points  (2 children)

A picture isn't an accurate representation of what a person is like. I'm not advocating being a "drunken fool", but no matter how much you abstain from drinking or swearing, if you act in unfeminine ways -- if you are overbearing, pushy, naggy, aggressive, etc -- you are not feminine.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (1 child)

Your appearance is the first thing people notice about you though. Part of being feminine is how you present yourself. Like how you walk and get out of a car.

[–]teaandtalk4 Stars 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Just because it's something people notice doesn't mean it's actually important or meaningful. It is in no way enough information to know whether someone is feminine - sure, it's more feminine than getting around in sweats, but the other stuff is WAY more important.

[–]peppermint-kiss 4 points5 points  (4 children)

If you present two photos one of a women in a dress and one dressed like a tomboy and ask people which is feminine they will say the women in a dress.

Are you sure about that?

Woman 1

Woman 2

I intentionally chose women of similar attractiveness and social class to make the point more fairly, but if you wanted to go all out you could compare Woman 3 vs. Woman 4 and tell me that wearing a dress (or not) is one of the defining aspects of femininity.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

My eyes...they burn!!!

(really shouldn't have clicked on woman 3)

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

If you would have picked a women in a different kind of dress than yes I’m sure it would go over as more feminine than the women in the pants.

[–]peppermint-kiss 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Here are some more women in dresses that do not look feminine. Some of these dresses would very easily transition to a feminine look with a different wearer or attitude:

In contrast, here are six more examples of women in pants and shorts looking very feminine:

Conclusions:

  1. Given two similar photos, one of a woman in pants or shorts and one of a woman in a dress, it's not guaranteed which woman will be perceived as more feminine.
  2. The same outfit can look more or less feminine depending on the woman who wears it.

Thus, clothing is not the primary determinant of femininity.

[–]KittenLoves_Endorsed Contributor[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What on god's green earth is that "dress" in picture three? Haha, oh lord, save my eyes!

[–]LateralThinker133 Stars 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Presenting external "feminine" traits - specifically dressing and comporting - isn't required to be feminine. But it does the following:

1) Helps you get into a more feminine mindset, similar to how wearing work attire even when working from home can help you be more productive than working in PJs.

2) Other people will treat you by default as a more feminine manner. Sure, a woman in jeans, combat boots, and short hair can be feminine. Any woman can be feminine. But when you have to constantly ignore/address others who treat you as unfeminine, it makes it harder to keep yourself in that mode.

In this vein, this is why "proper" young women are advised not to wear trashy and super-revealing clothes (such as 6" heels, micro-mini, and a halter top to go grocery shopping). The clothes by themselves don't make you into a hooker. But you're wearing a hooker's uniform, and will likely be treated as one by strangers, and this isn't a good (or safe) place to be.

If you want strangers to treat you as feminine by default, you need to wear a feminine "uniform".

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 6 points7 points  (1 child)

If you want strangers to treat you as feminine by default, you need to wear a feminine "uniform".

There is going to be a mix here. Not every woman will want to be identified as strictly feminine outside of her relationship.

I think it's easy to forget that not every RP Woman is going to be a SAHM or girly girl but that doesn't mean that the RP toolbox is not available to her. Additionally, a lot of women will switch back and forth between who they are in the work place and who they are in the home.

It's also a touch naive to think that a certain style of dress is going to help every woman turn on the feminine. Clothing is very personal and what makes us all feel good, confident, feminine, differs from woman to woman. If you put me in a flowing skirt with lace, I'd be a miserable bitch. I wouldn't be comfortable, I wouldn't feel like myself and that would start to flow from my personality. Now give me my skinny jeans, boots and a jacket, I feel good and am sweet as can be. A micro mini and some nice hooker boots are a good way to tap into my girly submissive side.

Everyone has to find their own style that works for them. Equating femininity with a certain type of clothing is fine if it works for the individual, but it's not a good thing to push to everyone. It makes it too easy to think you are feminine simply because you have the right accouterments rather than figuring out your own brand of femininity and style.

[–]LateralThinker133 Stars 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It's also a touch naive to think that a certain style of dress is going to help every woman turn on the feminine.

Never said that. Didn't even imply it. What I did say is that if you dress a certain way, you will be more likely to be treated by others in the way that dress suggests.

Dress like a man, you'll be treated more like a man.

Dress in a traditionally feminine manner, you'll be treated like a feminine woman.

Clothes, makeup, deportment, none of that changes your inner nature. But these can all make it easier to fall into that role.

Additionally, plenty of women are not secure in their selves. Women rate higher than men in insecurity. Having a go-to getup for feeling more feminine can be a comfort.

Everyone has to find their own style that works for them. Equating femininity with a certain type of clothing is fine if it works for the individual, but it's not a good thing to push to everyone.

Again, agree. Dressing in traditional feminine garb is an aid to women who want to feel more feminine, but it is hardly the way to get there. Ultimately, being feminine - or just being yourself - can only come from within.

Now give me my skinny jeans, boots and a jacket, I feel good and am sweet as can be. A micro mini and some nice hooker boots are a good way to tap into my girly submissive side.

Sounds like you, on the other hand, are very secure in your self/nature. But plenty of other women aren't.

[–]Rivkariver2 Star 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Feminine energy is strong but vulnerable.

It’s not about seeking perfect or in control or flawless girly appearance.

[–]HobbesTheBrave 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It is more action than presentation.

Considering how often I've met guys who wouldn't say no to burning a witch, and how they talked of a girl who they'd happily help, well, I no longer consider femininity something shallow.

[–]pink_sugar_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree so much and thanks for the topic. I consider myself extremely feminine and I drink, socially(sometimes, rarely, when in the right company, not in moderation), I swear(not in public) and I don't wear dresses and skirts that often. Femininity is not limiting yourself and your personality, be and express all that you are. I find this approach of telling women to wear dresses, not drink and not swear and whatever similar to bitter feminists who think pink toys are oppressive and every woman should be focused on her career.

[–]flyingwaterlilly 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is a very interesting topic, my take on this is that femininity is an attitude and outer appearance can underline that. Both are not mutually exclusive, even though no one has to be pushed into some predefined norms. It all depends on each individual. Not all women look good in dresses, but thankfully we have a lot of fashion styles to choose from.

[–]Pixie03103 Stars 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think what qualifies as feminine dress and behavior will vary slightly from woman to woman. There is room for different tastes and attitudes. Some things would make one woman feel frumpy, and another feel va-va-voom. I think it has to do with self-honesty.

Does your partner genuinely see your dress & behavior as attractive and feminine? (Mine doesn't like when I swear, which doesn't bother me particularly... but I try to curb it for his sake.) Are you honestly meeting your own standards of self-care and presentation, or are you slacking? (I am guilty of this, I can wear some super-ratty PJs sometimes and I know I'd feel better in something else.) If you saw someone in public who was dressed or was acting like you, what would your impression be?

I don't think "feminine" looks the same for every woman; but I think every woman should have a set, specific, high standard of her own self-presentation and what she defines as feminine - and she should try not to compromise it.

[–][deleted]  (2 children)

[deleted]

[–]KittenLoves_Endorsed Contributor[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

You are right. However, the point I'm trying to make is that you can be feminine while still being true to yourself. Not that you should indulge in bad behaviours (overdrinking, cursing to the point that you sound uneducated), but that you shouldn't feel you need to completely change your personality in order to attract a man.

Self improvement is incredibly important. But often the advice to stop drinking, stop swearing, stop wearing pants, isn't coming from a place of genuine self-improvement. It's coming from a place of trying to present an appearance, a veneer, of femininity. Sometimes at the exclusion of cultivating traits that are more useful -- instead of just not swearing, people (not just women, all people) should learn tact, grace, and the ability to communicate effectively based on their intended audience. Refusing to swear in any context isn't necessarily a good thing -- it depends on your audience. It can look as ridiculous as someone who can't stop swearing.

In essence, what I am trying to say is that in order to achieve true self improvement (in this case, self-improvement towards becoming more feminine), you need to work on more than just the exteriority of it, you can't just don the trappings of femininity and assume that you've done everything you need to do. It's like a man at TRP thinking he's become alpha because he lifts. That's all well and good, but it isn't enough.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I can’t think of a single instance where a If a women didn’t curse it would be ridiculous. The English Language is so huge you should not need to ever curse.

[–]WhisperTRP Founder 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Taking this kind of advice -- eliminating drinking, refusing to swear, and only wearing dresses -- and expecting to become truly feminine is the equivalent of putting on a white coat and expecting to become a doctor.

I believe the concept you are looking for is cargo cult.

[–]KittenLoves_Endorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not exactly the same concept I was thinking of, but that does tie in well. Thanks! I hadn't heard of this before.

[–]sonder_one 0 points1 point  (2 children)

If the manliest man in the world pulls his white tube socks up to the edges of his cargo shorts, puts on his best Star Trek shirt, pushes up his glasses, and asks if he could please have your permission to buy you a latte, will you say yes?

Neither will men be attracted to your feminine "mode of being" if your presentation isn't feminine.

True femininity (or masculinity) shows. If it doesn't show, it isn't there.

[–]peppermint-kiss 4 points5 points  (0 children)

If the manliest man in the world pulls his white tube socks up to the edges of his cargo shorts, puts on his best Star Trek shirt, pushes up his glasses, and asks if he could please have your permission to buy you a latte, will you say yes?

I would laugh and assume that he was in a costume for a convention, or taking part in a dare, or something. Because the "manliest man in the world" (assuming this meant the guy who had the healthiest, strongest positive masculine traits) doesn't need a particular outfit to display that - it's evident in his body language, his language, his eye contact, and so forth.

A nice outfit does help, and is obviously attractive in its own right, but there are pleeeeennnnnty of men who dress nice and act superficially polite who are clearly wimps or have issues with women, anger, etc. that makes them immediately unattractive to me. The only evidence you need of that is to consider 'fedora culture'.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)