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SELF IMPROVEMENTMen say: "We prefer natural women". Do they really? RPW perspective on make-up. (self.RedPillWomen)

submitted by cristiana33Endorsed Contributor

Intro: I read this all the time, I hear it on TV and each week a new study reveals how much men hate the cakeface and love me all natural. The general consensus is that men prefer natural women.

Be careful, my fellow RPW! It's a trap.


  • Why it's a trap

When men say they want natural women they mean naturally beautiful women.

They want those genes that give you perfect complexion, long eyelashes, full luscious lips naturally so he can be sure you are a great mating prospect. When you "cake" your face you are hiding the truth about your genes and this gives men mating anxiety. They don't like being lied to.


  • The catch

Men value women 99% on looks. Telling a girl to be natural is, in other words telling her: "I know you can raise your value by 250%, but please don't and be honest, ok?"

The question is if men could spend 15 min. in the morning doing an activity that skyrockets their SMV and status almost instantly would they do it? I bet they would.


  • The morality of "Too much makeup

I saw that many women feel guilty looking like something they are not and I understand this because I was like this too. When I started overdrawing my lips I felt like a cheater. This is our sense of morality kicking in.

We don't like to be fake because it's not fair, it's false advertising. Problem is we're trying to play fair when the game is rigged.

I am judged on something I have no control over like the length of my face or the distance between my eyes. Let's quickly review the "game" or "the system", whatever you want to call it.

Let's say I was born with a long face, ugly "witch" nose and no chin. Amanda was born with cute nose, long legs and baby-face. Now let's start on our paths...

Amanda wins.

Um..what? But I didn't do anything...

Sorry, Amanda wins.

But...I worked hard to...

Amanda is better, bye.

The game is not fair in the slightest. You are what you are born with, your face/body influences everything in your life from the day you are born, your interactions, your thoughts, your value. And here we are, on r/RedPillWomen trying to play nicely a game that is rigged from day 1.


  • Ok, cristiana33, I should cake myself in make-up and call it a day, that's what your saying.

No, no, no. If you are naturally beautiful I think mascara and some lipgloss are enough.

I wouldn't do much if I had a naturally great looking face. But not all of us are naturally beautiful, for example I am not.

What I am challenging here is the "morality" of too much makeup and our (foolish) desire to play "fair". Our morality which tells us "maybe I shouldn't deceive people". Well they will deceive you and will not lose much sleep over it. Men will call you ugly in your face and won't care that you didn't hide those blemishes because you wanted to be "morally correct".

They'll call you ugly and turn their back on you.


  • So how much make-up??

How much you want. How much you feel comfortable with. None at all if you don't want to.

But NEVER try to be "natural" for the sake of morality. That's foolish.

  • But how about when he sees me without make-up?

If you have naturally pleasant features you're fine. No woman is as beautiful without make-up and nobody expects you to be. If your face is unattractive w/o make-up wake-up early and put your "minimal face" on before he wakes up. Simple.

Women have been doing this for decades before feminism and laziness kicked in.


Conclusion: You can play fair all you want, the system is cruel. You are judged on things that you have no control over. Your desire to be "natural because you don't want to deceive" can be detrimental in the path for success.

TLDR; What men actually want is naturally beautiful women. If you're not one of them use all the tools you have to raise your SMV and feel absolutely no shame about it.


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    [–]1nfidel23 0 points1 point  (7 children)

    With guys every night is blowjob night regardless of makeup provided ur hot and there's steak for dinner lol

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          [–]bro_before_ho 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          My wife and I fell in love and now we're looking for a man to date together. Cool to see someone else here with a similar relationship to what we're looking for.

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              [–]LSDMusicLady 51 points52 points  (8 children)

              Don't listen to what men say, pay attention to what they do.

              They say they hate makeup, but drool over women wearing makeup. One of the first things my husband told me was that he hates makeup, and yet he only ever compliments my face when I have some on.

              That said, I am yet to meet a man to likes too much makeup.

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                [–]Ojisan1 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                I used to play drums in the orchestral pit for musicals in high school. And I remember that for stage effect, the girls had to deliberately use a lot of bright makeup so their facial expressions could easily be seen from the back row of the theater. But that kind of makeup style doesn't turn me on. It's utilitarian. It has a purpose.

                I'm certainly no expert, I only know what I like, but for my taste, the most appealing makeup job is done such that I don't notice it and yet you have enhanced your appearance to be the best it can be. It's a fine line for some girls, and for other girls they just demolish the line (no makeup when they could really use some, or way overdoing it in the other direction, like they used Homer Simpson's makeup gun).

                [–]Rommel0502 10 points11 points  (1 child)

                Truer words have never been spoken - and that goes for EVERYONE. Want to see someones true feelings and intentions? Never listen to a word they say. Instead watch everything they DO. Tells everything. Hell, sometimes people arent even aware of it themselves.

                [–]LSDMusicLady 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                So true, you can learn a lot about yourself by observing your own actions, reactions and emotions, it makes it harder to lie to yourself with words and thoughts.

                [–]sg92i 15 points16 points  (3 children)

                One of the first things my husband told me was that he hates makeup, and yet he only ever compliments my face when I have some on.

                Here's an idea: Maybe what's going on here is that guys like makeup when they don't notice it; and what they're complaining about is when people go overboard with it.

                There's this really old meme for example about when someone skips their makeup routine one day for some reason, goes out in public and has people who recognize her ask if she is ok because they assume she is sick or tired. They never noticed her normal makeup usage because it was subtle, so now when its not there something feels off to them.

                A lot of subtle cues are more or less invisible when they're working.

                [–]QueenBee126 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                A lot of subtle cues are more or less invisible when they're working.

                THIS!!!

                [–]LSDMusicLady 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                Yes, the no-makeup makeup seems to be the best solution for most women.

                [–]okiedokie321 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                and what they're complaining about is when people go overboard with it.

                Ding ding ding. Somewhat like this to give everyone an illustration (literally).

                [–]Mentathiel 15 points16 points  (0 children)

                If you're naturally beautiful, however, I think there's a huge benefit in wearing no make-up or just a little of it. And it's in the very reason why guys go on about preferring all natural. When you're attractive and natural, they tend to feel safer choosing you because they feel like they've got certainty with your SMV, while someone who looks more attractive might be deceiving them and having lower SMV.

                That being said, my SO told me he doesn't like makeup much, but thinks a bit of mascara/lip gloss do emphasize femininity, so now I wear minimal makeup for him sometimes.

                Oh, and a funny story, I've posted like two FB profile pics with red lipstick in a row and got a random guy (boyfriend of my friend, we used to hang out in a larger group of friends, I think he might've been interested in me back then, but I wasn't) messaging me about how I "don't need makeup" etc. I still don't understand how in the seven hells did he consider it any of his business. On top of that, he wasn't satisfied even when I said I don't normally wear it, it was just for some events and I liked the pictures, at which point I removed myself from the conversation. XD

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                [–]sg92i 4 points5 points  (5 children)

                Ive seen it on her ONCE and it looked amazing. (Done when she was a bridesmaid)

                Just a thought. Sometimes bridesmaids get their makeup done by professionals for the event. I don't know if that applies here but it would explain why it hasn't happened again. It could be she does not know how to recreate it.

                woman with no makeup wearing a polo shirt.

                I think you can blame jeans for that one. What level of formality is called for seems to depend upon what the baseline level in society happens to be.

                So when jeans became the default for every day attire, it brought down every level of formality above it (making it less common for people to wear "nice" clothing).

                I'll give an example. I don't know how old you are but there was a time where the employees at department stores had to wear business attire. As in nice skirts & dresses for the women, shirts & ties (if not suits) for the men. Meanwhile the public normally wore slacks or casual skirts & dresses on a daily basis. When jeans became the public's default this whole practice started to feel "strange" to people, because they would walk into these stores and be greated by min wage retail employees who were dressed two levels of formality better than they were. So the stores corrected for it by gradually (between the 80s & today) putting their employees in kakhi pants & polos bringing the formality difference back down to "1."

                [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                Which is unfortunate.

                When people dress with class, they're more likely to act with class.

                I haven't worn jeans since I was 12. Neither has my wife. What you describe is basically the reason why.

                [–]FriedHayek 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                When people dress with class, they're more likely to act with class.

                What bad traits and behaviors disappear when a man burns his jeans and get a proper wardrobe? I'm curious. Would I become statistically better at everything by a factor of 50%, or something, by buying a set of chinos?

                Please, give me all of the dirty details about how jeans ruin everything.

                [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                Look around in your neighborhood. Pay attention to how different people behave and how that matches with their dress. While everyone has their own personalities, you'll notice general patterns associated with various types of dress.

                [–]FriedHayek 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                I don't know how old you are but there was a time where the employees at department stores had to wear business attire. As in nice skirts & dresses for the women, shirts & ties (if not suits) for the men. Meanwhile the public normally wore slacks or casual skirts & dresses on a daily basis. When jeans became the public's default this whole practice started to feel "strange" to people, because they would walk into these stores and be greated by min wage retail employees who were dressed two levels of formality better than they were. So the stores corrected for it by gradually (between the 80s & today) putting their employees in kakhi pants & polos bringing the formality difference back down to "1."

                Is enclothed cognition that strong and influential? Do you notice that much more in men who wear better than jeans and t-shirt?

                [–]sg92i 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                Is enclothed cognition that strong and influential?

                Personally I suspect the enclothed cognition phenomenon sociology talks would have a point of diminishing returns that comes into play if someone wears something on an every-day basis. Once the novelty wears off and it is just routine, I would think it would have a somewhat lesser effect at least on themselves. Their effect on others, especially people not encountered every day, is another subject.

                [–]QueenBee126 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                It could be the makeup she had done was professional and she might not feel comfortable in her skills to recreate it! Why don't you surprise her by making her a teaching appointment with a makeup artist? I'm sure she would love to please you, she might not know how. Makeup is difficult! I would love to be surprised by something like that and I'm sure many ladies here feel similarly!

                [–]The1WhoCsAll 12 points13 points  (3 children)

                When we men say we don't like makeup, we are saying "I hate being lied to with makeup." Some women look like two different persons with and without makeup.

                If you have a pimple and use makeup to cover it or want to match your lipstick and nail polish, no one will be mad at you. But you have to notice that its dishonest to transform from a SMV5 to an SMV8 through makeup wizardry to attain affection from a male 8. He won't be pleased when he learns of the deception. Its fraudulent and potentially manipulative if he begins a relationship with someone he's never actually seen, then guilt is used to leverage him in. Yes, Ive seen it happen and no, its not cute.

                Men cannot relate to how you feel because we don't wear makeup. We are who we are everyday and we are also judged on our looks. Women feel more judged for their looks, but its really no different for unattractive men.

                [–]seashellprincess 7 points8 points  (2 children)

                I don't think it's women's fault that you can't distinguish between an ugly female and an ugly female that caked on makeup and if that's a huge deciding factor in dating women it might be a good idea to research what makeup does and doesn't look like... just my $0.02

                [–]The1WhoCsAll 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                Just look up make up transformations on youtube. Its remarkable what is possible. Its not a man's fault if he cant tell how heavy the makeup is. We arent trained in makeup. Bars, lounges, and clubs are often dimly lit as well

                [–]btcthinker 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                I agree: I'd have to be pretty freaking drunk, high, or a combination of the two not to realize what's hiding under the makeup.

                [–]thatwouldbeenough 17 points18 points  (1 child)

                I wear a full face of makeup at least 5 days a week and my husband always compliments how minimal I am with makeup. I'm not minimal at all but I'm using matte eyeshadow, thin eyeliner, subtle bronzer, etc. A clown and a Victoria's Secret model are probably using the same amount of product but technique and color choices are a huge factor.

                [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                A clown and a Victoria's secret model

                They both use makeup, yet, one looks like, well, a clown.

                It's all about the correct balance.

                [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 8 points9 points  (12 children)

                I am a man and I hate makeup.

                Well, that's not 100% accurate because it's too broad of a statement, covering way too many women. So let's explain a little.

                In my opinion, every person in the world, has both beautiful/handsome and ugly features. Everyone! I have yet to meet anyone even the most beautiful, who doesn't have some flaws. I have yet to meet anyone, even the most ugly, who does not have some beautiful features.

                Another key point is that a certain look may be revoltingly ugly to one and stunningly beautiful to another.

                Having said that, in my opinion, a little touch up to your face is awesome, a cake face is terrible.

                Why?

                Because when you use minimal makeup, you're merely highlighting your pretty features. You're accentuating your value. However, with a cake face you're becoming a whole different person and that's why it's seen as deceptive.

                Makes sense?

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                  [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  Yea. That too.

                  My wife hasn't worn makeup since a few months after we got married when I told her that she looks much better without it. I still stand by that statement a decade later. I do recognize the need for makeup in the world though.

                  What's more important to me is dress and demeanor.

                  [–]cristiana33Endorsed Contributor[S] 4 points5 points  (7 children)

                  :) It's not about particular features. Beautiful lips and delicate hands are beautiful features, but they may not suffice in making somebody attractive overall.

                  Beauty is about the package, the overall look. Maybe a cakeface is not neccessary to most women, I agree that truly ugly women are rare but they exist. So cakeface makeup may provide them (us) with the value we desire to achieve.

                  [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                  Hence the mindset that having a cakeface means you're hiding something.

                  I agree. It's about the overall picture. To take the examples you gave - sometimes a little lipstick will accentuate the lips and add plenty of value to the overall picture. That's true.

                  A downside of too much makeup is that you're setting the bar too high. What do I mean?

                  When a girl dresses up in a manner that will maximize her sexual appeal, it will work to get a desired guy into the sack. It's good if you want to ride the cc. However, if you're interested in a LTR and especially if you're interested in marriage for the rest of your life, you need him to be attracted to your bare naked self without any enhancements.

                  One day he will wake up next to you, you'll have no makeup, your hair will be a complete mess after having been smashed into the pillow all night, you may be sweaty, you may have just passed some smelly gas before waking up, your breath is certainly foul at the moment. Now what?

                  If your made up and dressed up self is merely to highlight what you've got, when he wakes up to the mess of you and the smell of your morning breath, all will be great because he's attracted to YOU. You dress up and use makeup to fuel this attraction.

                  However, if the makeup if a facade meant to conceal the real you, what exactly do you think will happen when the real you is revealed?

                  If you're going for a ONS, this doesn't matter because you can always put up whatever facade you'd like for a few hours. However, that's not what we want here at RPW.

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                    [–]cristiana33Endorsed Contributor[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

                    When I said cakeface may provide me with value , I meant value as in beauty. Not a high-value man.

                    If you lurked TRP I think you probably saw "low-value" women being referenced. By low value woman, TRP simply means low attractiveness.

                    I don't think any woman that reads and understands TRP will feel entitled to a high-value man because she cakes her face, I am sure not.

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                      [–]cristiana33Endorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                      I am not interested in a man's looks, as women are attracted to alpha qualities and a high status. I am biologically inclined to seek a partner with alpha qualities in order to ensure survival of my children ( I am talking from an evolutionary psychology point of view, not literally) A pretty boy doesn't do much in terms of providing / protecting.

                      When you try matching woman-man by SMV don't go by looks only. The criteria is different (woman: looks/youth ; men: high-status / good provider)

                      So according to TRP beauty in women = high value / high status. Being high value brings a lot more benefits than dating prospects.

                      Saying makeup / beauty (high status for women) is only for attracting men is like saying men who are succesful, rich and alpha (high status for men) are doing it to attract women. Does it work? Yes, but there are other prizes

                      I see your point: since you're ugly you should not demand a high value man despite artificially increasing your SMV. You are correct, but as i said, every woman is attracted to alpha quality. According to TRP attraction cannot be negociated so i don't know how lowering standards works. If i ask you to lower yours can you do it? I don't know if we can lower standards, i am in LTR so cannot say much on the topic as of now.

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                        [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                        I hate makeup primarily from a taste and texture standpoint.

                        From a visual standpoint it really depends on the person. Some people need a bit of touch up and others don't. What I was trying to say is that although I'm not a huge fan of makeup, I'm not a militant die hard hard anti makeup guy.

                        I'm happy it was understood through the confusion :)

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                          [–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                          There are a few things you can do to maximize your natural beauty without makeup as well. Keeping a healthy weight enhances your facial bone structure, tweezing eyebrows and upper lip allows for a groomed look, skincare products or dermatologist prescribed antibiotics/retinol makes for a healthier natural complexion without caking on foundation. OP is correct that you are unfortunately born with what you have, but I believe these three grooming tips can increase your natural beauty instantly.

                          Edit: Don't forget hairstyle! If you have fine hair, style it in a way it looks fuller, if you have frizzy hair perhaps look into getting it chemically straightened for a more polished look.

                          [–]cantwrapmyheadaround 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                          You girls are lucky that you have an "out" of being "less than pretty." :-)

                          How disgusted would most women be with a man using shoe-inserts, to make himself taller?

                          [–]Submissively_yours 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                          I think one of the greatest self-confidence boosts is waking up early, putting on at least bb cream, some matte nude eyeshadow, mascara, and tinted lipgloss, before even doing any morning chores. It makes me feel so put-together. And then if I want to do more, it's easy to go add to my face.

                          [–]youreallmeatanyway 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                          What men actually want is naturally beautiful women. If you're not one of them use all the tools you have to raise your SMV and feel absolutely no shame about it.

                          More or less correct. Of course, the trouble comes with being objective enough to clearly evaluate where you are on the 1-10 scale. There are women who are clearly 9.5s who think theyre 6s and there are women who are 4s who think they're 10s.

                          Here's my personal experience:

                          • Barring injuries and birth defects, most women are not objectively ugly. Oh sure, a woman might be plain or have an unattractive feature, but most physical deficiencies can be made up for with other physical attributes; or even character attributes to a lesser extent.
                          • Most guys who say to a woman, "I prefer natural women", are trying to elevate themselves above 'those guys who only judge women on their looks'. It is, basically, a statement of dishonesty since the speaker still (as you have pointed out) still prefers naturally beautiful women.
                          • Personal anecdote: My exwife, when I married her, was a solid 7 sans cosmetics. And at 25 years old, it was easy for her to get away with very minimal makeup, if any at all. But a few years, and 40 pounds, later she'd lost much of her youthful beauty (along with her vibrancy of spirit which was very attractive to me as well). And once she reached this point I began to only get that "wow" feeling when she'd put on makeup if we were going somewhere special.

                          So what do I prefer (as if any of you had a reason to care)? It is true the "cake" look is off putting, but maybe that's because I'm an 80s kid and associated that with this and this, but if I have the choice of just two women of equal base attractiveness, one with make up and one without, then I'm going to be more drawn to the one who has enhanced her beauty with cosmetics (hoping that she'll have pleasant demeanor to match).

                          [–]AntiFeministWoman 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                          Most men don't hate makeup unless they view it as morally or religiously wrong. Most men simply hate obvious makeup. Pick the colors that look most natural on you, contour any parts of your face that you dislike, take care of your skin.

                          [–]prairieflower 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Yes, taking care of your skin makes a big difference. Good skin means you look better naturally and you can wear less makeup (if you want).

                          [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                          I'm not going to argue that make-up does great things. But I despise the amount of time 'invested'. Holy hell, there is only so much time in a day and the time a woman is in the bathroom putting on her make up and eye lashes isn't spent bonding and having fun.

                          And sometimes they get acne and clogged pours, so they put on more makeup to cover it. More acne and clogged pours.

                          [–]Kiddingyoself 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                          A few points..

                          1, The more obvious it is you're wearing makeup, the more likely someone will think you're wearing too much. I am no expert, but I imagine most men would like when they aren't sure you're wearing makeup at all. More often than not, less than too much makeup will likely be preferred, to having no effect.. whereas "too much" can be a negative for some.

                          2, Damage to your skin. Dolling up for perceived short term benefit, time and again, forsaking the long term health of your skin, is a bad plan! Know what you're doing, and don't use shit products.

                          3, Assumption of high maintenance. Men who appreciate the lengths women go through to look good can find it exhausting if you can never do anything together without 3 hours of notice & prep time. Whether or not it takes you a long time to put on makeup, just realize that some guys may take it that way.

                          4, "Grass is always greener." Some women really do lose perspective as to when they're making changes for change sake. If you want to look "special", that same face you see every day in the mirror won't cut it, right? Not necessarily. I once thought that if I ever had a daughter, I'd dye her hair, and keep it really short, so that she'd eventually think of her natural hair color, & long hair, was novel.

                          There's a lot of shit marketed to women, preying on their insecurities. If you asked men if they wanted you to do all that crazy, up, hairstyles for them, you'd likely find that they prefer you to leave it down, and natural... though at the same time, want you to like the way you look, and if your normal look isn't special enough for you, do what you've got to do. Just keep in mind that, truly, it could be just a bunch of your own stuff.

                          "There's no such thing as an ugly woman, only unhealthy women." If you take as much care of your health as you possibly can, makeup probably registers only slightly, if at all, with most men. Conversely, you know what would likely make an impression? A woman who was obviously taking ideal care of herself, and was therefore confident enough to leave her hair down, and wear little to no makeup (again, this isn't about "confidence being attractive".. If you cultivate the health, you, on your own, are likely fair more attractive than you know.).

                          [–]thisisophelia 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          don't use shit products.

                          This is so important. My mom always used only the best skin care products (not the most expensive though) and really new what kind of ingredients were in her everyday routine skin care products.

                          She'll be 50 next year and her skin look amazing.

                          [–]GoochMcGrundle 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                          Men value women 99% on looks. Telling a girl to be natural is, in other words telling her: "I know you can raise your value by 250%, but please don't and be honest, ok?"

                          that's some uncut crazytalk right there

                          [–]Wallstreet3 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                          "I am judged on something I have no control over"

                          Now you know how short guys or guys with below average looks or early baldness or countless other flaws feel. And note, with a lot of women a man below 6 foot is a deal breaker yet average male height is below 6 foot.

                          The truth is, no makeup levels the playing field.

                          [–]opinionatedpuck 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          Some men prefer plainer girls...There is nothing wrong with make up, the problem with most girls is that they don't know when to stop or where to draw the line, they go overboard and end up looking like a billboard in china town...

                          [–]El_Rico_2015 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          Men like women don´t like being lied.

                          Women do Make-up in order to increase their SMV - but here comes the problem. It is often a lie. You lie about your real value to get your way.

                          Men learn "game" in order to be perceived as High Value Man (relationship material) while they often aren´t. They lie to women too. Promise of a relationship with "High Value man" while they Pump and Dump because you can´t obviously maintain the lie for too long.

                          [–]tetsuzankou 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          I'm a man and this thread caught my attention I actually hate make-up, even more if it's heavy. My girlfriend stopped wearing it after she realised I won't go out with her wearing it. I'll only allow in case of weddings and formal events. But it has to be little no to no make-up. Make-up may help girls who are not "naturally beautiful", but make beautiful girls awful. To be honest, just try to please your man. If he says something, 90% of times they're being truthful, otherwise you'd know, you can grasp these kind of things easily.

                          [–]rprollerEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                          This is one of the more balanced points of view regarding wearing makeup I've ever seen. Brava!

                          I'm sure there are ladies out there who can't hide their flaws/accentuate their good features without a ton of makeup. What's your opinion on plastic surgery that--like makeup--"boosts" features, like pumping collagen into your lips to make them more full, or to make your butt look more round? I'm not talking about restructuring your facial bones or anything drastic.

                          [–]cristiana33Endorsed Contributor[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                          How crazy is the fact that we can achieve beauty/youth using current technology but some say:

                          naaah, I want to look natural, wrinkles give me caracter, my nose is what makes me uniquehamsterwheelspinning

                          Women in history went to extreme measures in order to be more beautiful (ex: using lead-based cosmetics, poison drops in their eyes for bigger pupils) and the modern woman wants to be...natural? With so many options available...

                          So many people suffer discrimination based on looks. Starting from what you mentioned (collagen) and finishing with facial implants, I think it's fair game really. Attractive people have it so much easy, why play on hard mode?

                          Still... PS is a medical procedure and stuff can go wrong, that's the only thing I can say against it

                          [–]rprollerEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          PS is a medical procedure and stuff can go wrong

                          True! I once knew a girl who was, by all accounts, naturally beautiful. But she got some kind of infection after her 2nd nose job and the scarring permanently disfigured her face. I think she was 19 at the time, and flew to China to get the procedure because no American doctor would do it.

                          [–]En-Zu 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          I like women that wear make-up and are proficient at it. It's infinitely interesting to me. Though I do prefer the 'no make-up' makeup look. But I will say I've seen some very heavy & pale make-up artistry that looked interesting and pretty to me but those are just photographs. It's probably freaky IRL.

                          Anyway I think that what gets men in a bind about women with make-up is just that after awhile women tend to become slack in their beautification in LTRs and men learn this so they wrongly tend to focus on getting women that are naturally beautiful without make-up when what matters more is just the maintenance of their partner's willingness to impress them.

                          I've kind of resolved to not cohabitate with women any more just because I've found that they can't healthily sustain that level of willingness to impress over time. I'd rather have myself be regarded as more of an event that calls for some preparation and not some habitual thing (I mean at least for dates etc. I'd like to have it both ways sometime and be casual too. Idk man haha).

                          tl;dr: Men focus on natural beauty because of the tendency for slacking with beautification effort that comes from most LTRs.

                          [–]happilymarried30yrs 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          When men say they don't like makeup, they mean "too much" makeup

                          [–]sunkindonut149 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Most cishet men know little to nothing about makeup and other aspects of women's grooming traditions. To them, "makeup" means Tammy Faye Bakker. "Artificial" haircolors to most men means bleaching your hair to the maximum or dye it fire engine red, not fine weave foils.

                          Its like most cishet women find male to male dominance behaviors to be alien and view them as toxic masculinity when they are not, they simply are not understandable from a perspective outside men's culture.

                          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          I disagree with this post completely, the main reason being that the solution to the cruel system you're offering is temporary and will lead to complications you were better off without in the first place, like for instance, the girl can only blame herself if i leave or treat her negatively after i realize that i'm not attracted to how she naturally looks, and i might not be a gentleman about it too.

                          what i secondarily disagree with here is that the system is not as cruel as you think it is, Amanads are way more challenged and it's way more difficult for them to meet the criteria that men who want stable long term relationships are looking for, it's mainly because Amandas receive more attention leading to a tendency for developing destructive behavior (i,e more temptation to ride the CC, a tendency to develop a horrible personality (since orbiters and whatnot don't care about that) and less motivation to develop crucial skills etc..), also they have more enemies and have to deal with a lot of "Nice Guys" so it's not as easy for them as it may look, As teenagers, me and every guy i knew fancied an Amanda at one point of our life, right now, i can safely say that the amount of Amandas circulating my fields of interest is Zero. However, if an Amanda managed to keep her senses together she will have the biggest prize, because she deserves it. This rarely happens so most of the time everything is left for everyone else.

                          Another point, just like the first comment mentioned, you do have some control over the matter, there are many other ways to improve yourself other than the deception of makeup.

                          tl;dr deception is a bad idea.

                          [–]francinerose 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          There is a good documentary about attractiveness and beauty on Netflix

                          Anyways just because you are a 6 and other women are a 10... Doesn't mean the system is rigged

                          You can date men that are a 4-7 in looks and have power/money that raises their SMV... You date around your number....

                          [–]francinerose 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Remember your man will HAVE to see you without all that make up on at night. In the shower, giving birth, hiking, swimming. Etc

                          [–]Ariel125 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          "Sorry, Amanda wins. But...I worked hard to... Amanda is better, bye."

                          LOL love it. Very true.

                          [–]noodleworld 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          In the same vein, don't ever doubt yourself in getting plastic surgery to fix a part of your body that you have been told is ugly. I mean, do your research, find a great surgeon ofc, but don't shy away from the surgery because you're worried about being "fake" or something

                          [–]Kiddingyoself 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          This just reminded me of this thread.

                          [–][deleted]  (19 children)

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                          [–]rprollerEndorsed Contributor 5 points6 points  (18 children)

                          The game is rigged because the world judges women based on their looks, no matter how hard they try to obtain/maintain beauty. Efforts to make yourself look good don't matter that much in the end because ultimately it's the final product people see. The supremely ugly girl would have to put on a "cakeface" to begin to look as good as the naturally beautiful girl without makeup, but the second the naturally beautiful girl puts on makeup, it's game over for the ugly girl.

                          And makeup/other cosmetics are actually quite expensive. If you buy shit makeup, it will generally show. Good lipstick can run you between $50-$100 a pop, for example.

                          [–][deleted]  (17 children)

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                            [–]cristiana33Endorsed Contributor[S] 6 points7 points  (16 children)

                            /u/1nfidel23, you are talking strictly about sexual strategy. When I was a teenager, a very ugly teenager, I wasn't really thinking "Hey, at least I can get beta wallet access!", I was too busy being called ugly, and perceived as a lesser human.

                            As long as looks are 99% of my value this is reflected in all areas of life. Being ugly is not about NOT having access to alphas, it's about witnessing how much worse you are worth compared to your attractive peers. This leaves emotional scars.

                            This is not a debate of ugly girls vs ugly guys. Ugly is bad in both genders. A woman cannot be happy in spite of ugliness because "hey at least I can get my beta bucks!" that's just not how female mind works. We're biologically programmed to crave validation, admiration for our looks and if we don't get it we'll be unhappy despite access to beta bucks.

                            [–][deleted]  (12 children)

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                              [–]1nfidel23 1 point2 points  (11 children)

                              In this society no one is putting a gun to ur head and forcing u to conform or obey their expectations. If someone irks u (in guessing annoys u) then the logical thing would be to just not have them in ur life. If someone has expectations of u then let them they don't have a say in ur life. Your programmed to seek approval and validation from others, you can break that programming if you wish by not letting other people's expectation dictate ur actions. It takes a little backbone but you can't say stuff like "defends myself" Because that shows u care enough to want to justify/defend ur disposition. Now physically yea by all means defend urself, otherwise stand up for urself by not letting externals influence ur behavior with a healthy level of self respect. If U didn't care if society accepted u or not then u wouldn't want revenge on them for it cuz their opinion wouldn't matter that much to u

                              [–][deleted]  (10 children)

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                                [–]rprollerEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (4 children)

                                Jesus Christ OP was talking about wearing makeup, not The Matrix.

                                [–][deleted]  (3 children)

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                                  [–]rprollerEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                                  I'm not talking about makeup.

                                  I know you're not, which is why I'm telling you to stay on topic, which in case you're confused, is about makeup.

                                  [–]1nfidel23 0 points1 point  (4 children)

                                  Lol we're not talking about saving the world against its unfairness. U wanna talk fair start with changing biased divorce laws and stop trying to get men to sign the dotted line despite knowing full well the dangers of doing so for him. In context of this sub ull get victimized for ur benefit as a gender. Nobody is taking u down and if they did it's VERY easy for u to screw them over with false rap/domestic violence accusations. Women use victimization to their advantage countless times as you very well know, ur comment included. Ur making a victim out of urself when on reality ur not. Nobody is swallowing u whole (hehe) in fact it's the opposite society voids women of any accountability ie "fat is sexy" "you go girl"

                                  [–][deleted]  (3 children)

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                                    [–]1nfidel23 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                                    Triggered by women who aren't submissive? U mean they don't like it when women aren't submissive? If that's wat u mean then we both know thats incorrect. Hell a woman is running for president what does that tell you about society "triggered by non submissive women". In this feminist society they're triggered if u ARE submissive, hence the mass entitlement complex of majority of women. It's why this sub exists because being submissive isn't cool/feminist/common/encouraged.

                                    As for the snarky comments they're going off of what society as a whole has accepted women for today so u can thank feminists for that.

                                    And I honestly don't get how ur bring attacked or who's attacking u, u may just be making a mountain outbid a molehill since in his society women can do no wrong

                                    [–]1nfidel23 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

                                    that's where women should use a little logic and be realistic in terms of their place in the SMP. If they continue to let their looks dictate their self esteem/self worth then hot or not they're doomed to begin. With, seeing as ugly girls will wish they were hotter and hotter girls will be insecure if some guy doesn't tell them they're pretty. It won't bode well for either in the long run.

                                    Guys know they have to prove their worth, so they do complain but they accept that they have to improve. If ugly guys even get a chance they're happy (despite still having to fend for themselves financially etc) whereas girls as you said still moan and cry that they're ugly despite having a decent financial improvement without any effort on their part.

                                    It's akin to someone crying about not having the finer things in life while being safe and secure and the other person being grateful for what they have.

                                    It's like the guy is grateful to have a woman, woman still isn't satisfied with having a decent guy cuz she's not "pwetty". Kinda childish methinks

                                    [–]rprollerEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                    OP is talking about just makeup. No need to try to expand it further.