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DISCUSSION“Men age like wine, women like milk” (self.RedPillWomen)

submitted by powertothemonsters

This statement is a favorite of TRP, but what do women think of it? Ladies, have you resigned yourselves to believing that every day you only look worse, age more and become less desirable?

I’m 20 and I’m honestly scared of aging. Reading TRP and related pages has made me even more so.

Are we damaged goods? Is this something we’re just supposed to accept? That we have a shelf life of about 10 years?


[–]ragnarockette4 Stars 65 points66 points  (5 children)

Your potential decreases with age, but that’s not say that you won’t look/feel better at 35 than you do at 25. Particularly if you (like me) drank, smoked, ate like crap, and dressed like a teenager. I honestly think I am the most attractive I’ve ever been at 31, and I get way more serious male attention than I did in my early 20’s. However, I’m sure if I was a slim, healthy, and stable then as I am now, I would have been much, much better.

I know plenty of women who married wonderful men in their 30’s. A girlfriend of mine is 39 and planning a wedding to her 45-year-old fiancé and they are giddy and excited.

So don’t worry so much about “the wall.” It is more about your potential, and your ability to attract the highest value man possible, than some monolithic dropoff point after which you have zero chance of finding happiness.

[–]aftertheafter-party2 Star 9 points10 points  (3 children)

Since I was about 14yo, I've always personally believed that "women" (not "girls") peak at ~31 & can maintain that as long as they choose to maintain it. I draw my inspiration from Jane Fonda & my mother. I've seen super sexy pictures of my mother ages 16-now, & my personal favorite is when she was around 41.

My parents' entire friend group makes fun of them because they cannot keep their hands off each other, & they are in their 60s (my mother is ~5 years older than my dad, for anyone curious).

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I've always personally believed that "women" (not "girls") peak at ~31

Yes!! It appeared to young me that 30 was when girls finally look like women. This is the age when you think "beautiful" rather than "cute" or "pretty".

And the peak can be a long plateau if you do all the right things to care for yourself.

[–]IsaGuz 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Eeeexactly. Girls age badly... because if you're unpredictable, immature and can hardly take care of yourself, only youth and beauty will make anyone put up with that. Women, mature, intelligent, cultivated, hard-working, honorable, loyal women... Peak in their 30s, completely agreed. And if you work hard you're attractive until your 50s. Not like a girl, but like a woman.

[–]ragnarockette4 Stars 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I agree! A lot of the women I know started taking better care of themselves, and are much more self assured and confident at 31 than they were at 21.

[–]sweetmacaron 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Wonderfully worded.

[–]HarshaCity 81 points82 points  (1 child)

That we have a shelf life of about 10 years?

10 years to find a quality man, 10 more for being valuable sexually. But in my opinion once you have a good marriage and discover motherhood none of this will matter anymore.

[–]sweetmacaron 33 points34 points  (0 children)

I think that's true. But life isn't all about romance and sex. As long as you have a happy and healthy relationship, why be scared of aging? The Red Pill doesn't mean women are trash or worthless human beings after 30 or after menopause. Think of your grandmothers (or late grandmothers if they have passed away). Are they worthless and a piece of crap with no value whatsoever as a human just because they may be too old to reproduce or too old for marriagable men in their 20s or 30s? Of course not.

It's one thing to be realistic about marriage/childbirth prospects, but it's another to see women as spoiled milk.

[–]sonder_one 19 points20 points  (6 children)

There is a lot of denial in these comments.

That some woman might weigh 250 pounds at 22 and 130 at 32 doesn't disprove the premise here. Nor does "I feel better about myself at 32" mean that your SMV is higher.

Women are not men. SMV is scored differently. There is no cosmically ordained rule that says that it has to be fair, either. Asking "How am I supposed to accept this" is foolish.

You might as well complain about the fact that after about 80 years, you're going to die.

"Red Pill" conversations are about making the best of reality, not denying it. Women peak far higher than men, and enjoy extraordinary social privilege while young - privilege that men never match (feminist apex fallacies aside). That's why the wall hits so hard - when you've only ever known privilege and all your peers shared that privilege, the new normal seems awful by comparison. It's your first look at life from a man's perspective, but you haven't been hardened by 30 years of it yet like they have.

If you're smart, you've got one coming home to you by then.

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[deleted]

    [–]sonder_one 2 points3 points  (2 children)

    You're trying to use exaggeration to absurdity as a form of denial. The fact remains that many men have higher SMV in their 30s than in their 20s, while women almost never do.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–]Pixie03103 Stars 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Agreed x 100000000000000.

      [–]plein_old 49 points50 points  (0 children)

      I think worrying makes people age faster. And not all men age well.

      You might trying spending an afternoon volunteering with children who are missing an arm or a leg or can't speaking properly. I don't mean this as a joke, or a criticism... I just mean that if we spend time helping people less fortunate than us, not necessarily for 20 hours a day but just every now and then, it can be a huge reminder to be grateful for what we have, rather than worrying about what we could lose and all that stuff. There's no end to those worries, it seems to me, once a person gets addicted to thinking that way. Good luck! :)

      [–]radical-trad 31 points32 points  (0 children)

      Physically this may be true - but if you understand your value as a women to be so much more than what a man can see with his eyes you can buck this trend. Deep interest, humor, perspective, charm, charism do not go away with age. A truly developed women simply cannot be replaced. InsteAd a man will follow her and her saggy breasts for a lifetime. The trick is to know the true power of your femininity does not come merely from attracting the male gaze - it comes from understanding the power of the feminine which is not the same as SMV. Personally, it frightens me how many red pilled ladies fall for this materialistic reduction of their true and most potent allure.

      [–]FeelTheBernieSanderz 11 points12 points  (0 children)

      Is this something we’re just supposed to accept?

      Nature doesn't care whether you do or don't accept it, therefore, the path of least resistance is to accept it and make the most of what nature has intended for you in those years of peak beauty.

      You'll be so busy enjoying life that you won't give a thought to that saying until the day comes to teach your daughter.

      [–]AirplaneNote 19 points20 points  (0 children)

      You can age good whole milk into some tasty cheese.

      [–]refelgallo 19 points20 points  (6 children)

      In my experience the OPs quote is mostly true with caucasian women. In ethnic groups its common to have heard “Black don’t crack” meaning wrinkles dont set in until lates forties at the earliest.

      Granted there are exceptions to every rule, stereotypes/rules come about because there is some truth to them.

      Personally, I prefer a female closer to my age, hourglass figure, feminine, intelligent a better cook than me, and I’m no slouch in the kitchen.

      And while a 20 something cute little thing would catch my eye, in my experience they cannot keep my attention as a woman who has been around the block, so to speak.

      In any case, take care of your skin, crack open a book and learn basic maintenance on your vehicle.

      Looking younger than your actual age is always a bonus, granted what a particular age looks like is subjective.

      Learn more about something that interests you or just know more than whatever drivel is posted on social media.

      Knowing how to change your own oil and spark plugs is particularly intriguing to a guy that, I would think, you would find worthy of you.

      [–]bloobird08 12 points13 points  (5 children)

      In many places, Caucasian leaning features are more widely seen as more attractive. Ever noticed that lighter skin black women are seen as more attractive than the darker? That goes back to whiteness being valued.

      [–]The_gray_ghost 6 points7 points  (0 children)

      So interestingly enough evolutionary biology has something to say about that. Lighter skinned people can absorb more vitamin D in areas of the world that are further from the equator, think Europe. This isn't so much an issue now, but before modern times if a women did not get an adequate amount of vitamin D through diet and making it naturally from the sun, she would be more likely to break her pelvis during child birth or have other complications like that during pregnancy, and just generally have weaker bones. Through natural selection women that had lighter skin ended up successfully producing more children (especially in climates further away from the equator) thus spreading their genes more efficiently that darker skinned women. Testosterone does have effects on melanin, making men in all races darker on average than their women. So yes, lighter complexions are a feminine trait.

      [–]refelgallo 0 points1 point  (3 children)

      Perhaps, this (caucasian leaning features) holds true with most lighter skinned and even some darker skinned people.

      Personally I find Viola Davis, Sofia Vergara, Jennifer Hudson (pre weight loss) more attractive than than any white celebrity. But again I prefer hourglass figures.

      In any case, I know very few caucasian women (non celebrities) that have aged well.

      I have a late 40 something hispanic ex that looks better than some early 30 something caucasian females I know.

      Granted this is a small sample and I am only speaking from my personal experience/perspective. YMMV

      [–]bloobird08 5 points6 points  (2 children)

      Interesting. I don’t think I’ve known any men who name those celebrities as their ideal.. shows that beauty is a bit subjective. White women can have hourglass figures, I guess they are more petite leaning hourglasses though and maybe that doesn’t register as a true hourglass to some. There’s also a spectrum of white women, some have more melanin than others. Italians are white and traditionally have more melanin than a fully British person, for example.

      [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 7 points8 points  (1 child)

      It seems to me that this person is trying to extrapolate his own preferences as a way of proving the rule.

      This is ok enough for him, but if a man does not prefer black women, then it doesn't matter that "black don't crack". If a man doesn't prefer white women, then he's not going to care about a perfect hourglass shape on a woman he's otherwise not attracted to.

      I doubt very many men pick a woman because on average her ethnic background mean's she'll age well. If that is a concern, looking at her mother would get you a much stronger data point.

      [–]BewareTheOldMan 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      Nope - most men select a life-mate based on shared culture, shared heritage, and similar life-experiences and upbringing versus how a woman ages through the years. Although men will date and marry interracially, most men prefer women of their own race - nothing wrong with that.

      Most women will do well enough if they marry early enough, at peak SMV, and do well at increasing their RMV by always being added-value to a man's life with demonstrated loyalty, dedication, support, and strong effort as an outstanding wife and exceptional mother.

      It's not a guarantee, but following that basic format generally keeps a man interested in the same woman for years to come.

      [–]WynterBlu 17 points18 points  (0 children)

      I am mainly a lurker here but I definitely feel the need to post on this one. I completely do not agree with this whole "wall" scenario. If you are a woman that takes care of herself literally as most RPW say they do...working out, great skincare, remaining feminine, great haircare, proper nutrition...proper outer and inner maintenance so to speak...you are going to hit your 40s with a strong SMV whether you are married or single for the simple fact that you have taken great care of yourself and continue to take great care of yourself. A bit of background on me....I believe I have always been the RPW type...I have always been a type A person but not in relationships with men. I definitely catered and did the whole submissive thing but at that time RPW was not a catch phrase. Late teens, early twenties my SMV was very high, I took amazing care of myself and was not lacking in dates. I ended up married to a soldier in the 82nd Airborne (complete GI Joe badass) however I may have became too submissive as my marriage turned into a horror shit show of daily physical and mental violence to the extreme. Yet I stayed, 4 children later, very low self-esteem, destroyed my body to the point that I felt if I lowered my attractiveness to a 1 or 2 then I would be ignored...gained a huuuuuge amount of weight, cut my hair short, colored over my natural blonde...didn't work. Eventually the marriage did fail, he grew tired of me and left without a word...i was devastated (why, I have no clue)...depression over my age, feeling of never being loved again (as if I was to begin with), and that depression brought on an amazing side effect...the first 50 pounds of weight loss in 4 months. I suddenly felt a bit better, started going to the gym, started Keto, got my hair back to it's natural color, it's longer, have now hit 70 pounds lost. I do have approximately 70 to 80 more to go to hit my goal weight because yes, I completely thrashed my body, butI am working on it. I have always maintained my skincare and the best thing is I'm always guessed at a younger age. And even though I'm not looking for anything serious at the moment, I have been seeing a much younger man with a high SMV. Take care of yourself always and you won't have to worry about aging and some imaginary "wall" that others want to throw up in women's faces to make them feel less than adequate. All that "wall" means is no more babies...and sometimes that can be a good thing 😉

      [–]imdar3ald3al 26 points27 points  (7 children)

      Yes. You can have success in the SMP at 30+ but you will be at a disadvantage when competing for high status men. And this can be treacherous for the alpha widows who are extremely unlikely, if ever, going to get long term commitment from the highest value males that did take them, and may still take them, to the bedroom/gave them attention in their prime <-- (for all the celibates).

      You're also more likely to have accumulated things that both RPW and redpill men discourage you from acquiring (emotional baggage, jaded view of relationships, higher notch count etc.). Things that dont make you a bad person by any means, but make you less competitive in the SMP.

      If you marry before you "hit the wall" by 30, give or take a few years depending on your genetics and lifestyle habits, men and women develop wife goggles and husband goggles that essentially causes them to evaluate their partner's desirability much higher because of the love and bonding over the years etc. Behaving like a RPW will keep those goggles on for him. Behave like a feminist? Not so much...

      So dont worry. Just embrace the red pill and cash your chips in early to the get the kind of man you want.

      [–]HardTruths83 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      "Wife goggles" are real. My 42/F wife is not objectively "Hot" but there isn't a HB10 on the planet that could make me lust for them more than her.

      [–]BajaBlast90 2 points3 points  (5 children)

      "You're also more likely to have accumulated things that both RPW and redpill men discourage you from acquiring (emotional baggage, jaded view of relationships, higher notch count etc.)."

      Things like emotional baggage or a jaded view of life (aside from relationships) will happen to you regardless of relationships. Everyone will end up dealing with the stress and pain of life, whether it's a job that sucks the life out of you, financial issues, childhood trauma or a death of a loved one. TBH I don't think it's fair to hold things like emotional baggage against someone.

      [–]imdar3ald3al 0 points1 point  (4 children)

      I dont think it's fair either, but men consider this in the during long term mate selection and the dating market always corrects itself (men and women are simply less likely to accept baggage depending on the circumstances)

      [–]BajaBlast90 3 points4 points  (3 children)

      That is just unrealistic. Life will happen to everyone- it's called growth and maturity. Is the solution to live life in a bubble to preserve your integrity in the dating market? Because that makes no sense.

      [–]imdar3ald3al 0 points1 point  (2 children)

      The solution is better screening. Of course some baggage is inevitable and a part of growth, but it's a bad idea to be negligent about dating choices. That's what redpill seeks to avoid.

      [–]BajaBlast90 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      Right because past choices are an indicator of future behaviors. Makes sense in terms of dating choices but not life.

      The problem with screening in dating is that its necessary but not always 100% effective, especially if you don't have access to most of the other persons past information. Or there are rumors and falsehoods surrounding someone's past choices. That's the gamble you take entering in any relationship though.

      I'd say my own screening process has been effective. I've had good results come out if it from tweaking it over the years.

      [–]imdar3ald3al 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Yeah pretty much. You can reduce risk but you cant eliminate it. People just like. Glad to hear it's worked for you

      [–]stacysmom40 16 points17 points  (0 children)

      I was happier, more confident, and objectively more attractive at 30 than I was at 20.

      I turned 40 a few months ago. I do feel like I peeked in my 30s somewhere and I’m on the decline at this point, but I’m also married and have funds to afford upkeep and attire to look my best. I’m still far more confident and attractive than I was in my 20s.

      [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 13 points14 points  (1 child)

      Remember too, these sorts of statements are meant to be encouragement for men. You don't really hear this sort of thing around RPW. We talk about the wall as a warning so that women don't put their desires for family and children on hold for too long. Everyone ages and it serves as a reminder that you must take care of yourself. No woman talks about aging like milk.

      Men have two things going for them here. The first is that they peak later than women. Anyone who takes care of themselves can prolong the aging process, but it hits us all. My husband has crinkles in his eyes now. It's not as though he's continued to look young while I age. Women are also attracted to men's confidence and success and those develop over time. A man at 30 may be more appealing in the SMP than the same man at 20 because women don't consider looks alone.

      So, take a young man on the men's subs who might be struggling with women, or have had his heart broken by his first gf or is angry that the women around him have an easy time getting sex when he struggles. This statement is meant to give him hope. He will improve with age if he works at it. It's not all that different than a woman telling her friends "You were too good for him, he won't find anyone else".

      Don't allow a statement made to get men pumped up make you feel bad. Take care of yourself, mentally and physically and be more than your beauty. Don't push off kids for a career. Those are the things to take away from it.

      A man will only age like wine if he works on himself and wine turns to vinegar eventually. A woman will only age like milk if she doesn't take care of herself and milk turns to cheese when developed correctly. Not a single one of us is the same at 60 as we are at 20. What we turn into is in our control.

      [–]katkat150 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      This is great!

      [–]SpecialistParticular 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      Don't worry about it. The way modern men drink and neglect their fitness they're going to look like shit too. We can all look like shit together before the West falls and an asteroid mercifully ends our suffering!

      [–]sweetmacaron 7 points8 points  (0 children)

      My grandmother is 78 going on 79 and a widow. She has never remarried or dated anyone since and has remained fond of my late grandfather (though I've never met him because he died young-ish and left her a young-ish widow).

      Pictures of my grandmother when she was young reveal that she was very pretty at that time. She married in her 20s, and raised my mother and uncle. She may have aged like any human, but what matters is what you make of your life during your childbearing years. It's depressing to have her labeled as spoiled milk...which is why I disagree with such analogies.

      [–]labratte1996 7 points8 points  (4 children)

      Physically? Nope.

      Honestly, I have two things to say on that.

      Most of the men used as examples of how well men supposedly age are celebrities with very easy access to a plethora of cosmetic enhancements and anti aging treatments. Celebrities also tend to be the exceptionally beautiful of any given population anyway. But even disregarding this, most of the men people say aged so well are actually less physically attractive now than they were before - Harrison Ford, anyone?

      However, male attractiveness has much less to do with appearance than female. An overweight female gets rich and she's still probably not going to get the hottest man in her country to commit to her. An overweight guy gets rich, his options for female partners becomes way larger(she might cheat though...). Most men become financially stable later on in life, and therefore become more..."attractive"(not physically, but still). When this happens some people assume, it must be because women just don't age as well as men.

      The truth is that what is attractive for each gender is different. Youth is more valued for females, even if we still retain our beauty.

      [–][deleted]  (3 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]labratte1996 1 point2 points  (2 children)

        I see your point, really. But then, we're talking about attraction here, right? Not love. Money and power are two things that women genuinely find attractive in men. Not so much for females. The guy getting rich and able to attract females just proves that other things besides looks attract females to men( on a purely superficial but strangely practical level).

        The way I see it is like this. I love my boyfriend and am really attracted to him. Just as he is. Now imagine him, as he is, but a billionaire. Not gonna lie, that initial phase of attraction(infatuation, I guess?) would probably have been even stronger. Our relationship has deepened since then, but I don't think most women will look at guys with money and consciously think " Yes. This guy's money and power is soooo sexy", but we constantly talk about how we like "established" and "mature" men as if that doesn't also come with better finances. I find women are good at tricking ourselves so to speak, into thinking that power has nothing to do with it, even though a guy who looks like Jack Nicholson could never land so many hot women without his status. And if anything, we feed into this false idea that men somehow just age better (physically) than women.

        Also, I really can't think of any society where a woman's status influences here desirability in terms of whether or not they could get sex from a man. Even in a thread a poster made about status being important in India's upper class for women, nowhere was it stated that a low class woman would have a hard time getting sex, just marriage. I know in the developing country that I live in, it's pretty much the same.

        I'm a bit confused about your last sentence, to be honest. How do some women buy men? Are you talking about male prostitutes?

        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

        [deleted]

          [–]labratte1996 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          I'm saying that wealth adds to a guy's attractiveness. The example I gave of my boyfriend said very clearly that I love him and I also said that if he was wealthy that he would have been even more attractive in the initial stages of our relationship when I didn't know or love him and was simply attracted to him. Not sure where you got your ideas from tbh. :/

          Anyway, whether you or I would sleep with Jack Nicholson is irrelevant because the fact is that he gets a lot of beautiful women even though he's not very physically attractive and would more than likely not get them if he wasn't wealthy and didn't have status.

          So, your last paragraph - you seem to be disagreeing with me on basic RedPill truths? You' re going off on a tangent about actual relationships and love, while I'm talking about a purely physical attraction.

          Edit: One more thing I'd like to add is that I wasn't saying women are attracted "through" money and wealth (exclusively). I'm saying that it's one component of attraction that's far more important in men than women.

          [–]IsaGuz 4 points5 points  (0 children)

          Do your homework and take care of yourself.

          You are at your freshest between 18-25, that's true. I think I was at my prettiest after 27, and I am now 39 and most people think I'm 29, tops (my husband thinks I'm at my hottest now). To be honest, I have a childlike face and have aged very, very well... but then again, do your homework. That means:

          1. Smoking is totally and absolutely forbidden. A huge no-no. It's stupid, you're putting money for the privilege of losing health. Eventually, you'll have to quit, so you're better off never beginning in the first place. It destroys the collagen in your skin and you're the one paying.

          2. Sunscreen, hats, sunglasses and parasols are your friends.

          3. Sport and healthy diet.

          4. Avoid illegal drugs. Some of them can age you 20 years in 3.

          5. Avoid bad boys and destructive relationships. They'll age your body, and especially your mind, and it will show.

          6. Study and work hard, to become the smartest, strongest, bravest version of yourself. Whatever your path is, follow it.

          7. Never stop being curious. Don't be the girl who, in a conversation about computers, says "I don't know about computers, can we talk about something else?" If people are talking about something you don't know about, you listen and learn as much as you can. Most will be happy to teach you, and you'll become the wiser. Fact-check most of what you're told because there are liars out there, but simply, never stop learning.

          8. A man might marry a 40 year old woman who is a woman: that is, has a career, a job, her studies... No man wants to marry a 40 year old girl who's been partying, getting drunk and high and doing nothing productive for the last 20 years. Try to become the best version of yourself, too.

          9. If you use make up, make it a religious habit of removing it before going to sleep.

          10. After 30, the best investment is not so much in creams, but in platelets-enriched plasma (injected) and high-quality collagen (eaten).

          In short, if you are scared of growing old... Have you seen Amal Alamuddin? She's a human rights lawyer who married some actor. She was 40 as of Harry Windsor and Meghan Markle's wedding. THAT woman is what you should aspire to. Not to be exactly her (you might not like law, whatever rocks your boat), be a hard-worker, self-disciplined enough to be healthy and have a career and an interesting life that doesn't imply having wrecked your body.

          [–]JustPuggin 8 points9 points  (0 children)

          It's a very loose analogy. If not, you'd be spoiled in a few weeks. Also, women would be actually food/nutrition, and men literally toxic? I wouldn't suggest considering that saying very much.

          It's basically referring to what it is men and women generally find attractive in each other. Resources vs eggs. Women are their most fertile around your age. The more capable the man, the more his resources increase over time.

          The reality of our gender role is meant to motivate us. You can't celebrate your inherent beauty without accepting your "expiration date". That's a poor choice of words in one way, but not if you consider that's for all life. All life is temporary.

          By the way, men hit the wall too. It just manifests differently. In this soft world we live in, men aren't dying at 30 very often. However, if you talk to any ex-athletes, they'll tell you (if they're being honest) about the extreme difference between mid 20s and 30. Human brains aren't fully developed until about 25, and your hormones basically let you take the wheel at 27/28. This is men & women. We like to take credit for what are hormones do for us. It's pretty easy to be formidable at 25. 35? That's different. You'll have to do all the heavy lifting. It's part of what it means to be "grown up". Life isn't on easy mode any more.

          Don't worry about it. Understand what it means to you, and plan accordingly. If you want children, and then presumably healthy, successful, children, therefore a husband and successful marriage, you'll want to focus on that now. You've got 7+/- years to aim as high as you can, and then you'll have to move to plan B, C, etc..

          If you definitely don't want children/family, then you definitely have nothing to worry about (but you better be sure. There's no going back, so it's on to plan D, E, F, etc..).

          You're fortunate to ask these questions, and have access to the answers, now, before your prime, rather than 10 years from now, when you might have a mountain of a debt, a career you suddenly realize you don't want, and no prospects. Share these insights with women you care about.

          [–]IlluminatedElf 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          Not all 30 year old bottles of wine are great and you could make some amazing stuff with milk, when you understand the how to age, ferment, and process it well.

          I think that in terms of looks, men value a youthful beauty more because it represents a fertile female. On the other hand, women don't necessarily consider a youthful man to be the pinnacle of attractiveness.

          That being said, in the rubric of choosing a life partner, a youthful beauty isn't necessarily the be-all-end-all. There're other things that matter when it comes to choosing a partner and each individual has their own set of rules.

          [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 4 points5 points  (0 children)

          but what do women think of it?

          Unless you plan on dating another woman, it really doesn't matter what women think of it. All that matters is what men think because it's men who you're looking to attract.

          To men, your sexually most attractive from the time you've fully developed until somewhere around 25 or so. After that, there's a very slight decline in attractiveness until somewhere in your 30's when that decline picks up speed and becomes steeper. This is what's usually referred to as "hitting the wall".

          Are we damaged goods?

          That's up to you. You can choose the level of "damaged" or "not damaged" that you will be. You can do things to maximize your beauty and SMV or you can do things to destroy it. Same with RMV.

          Is this something we’re just supposed to accept?

          Well, accept it or not. Reality is reality. You may as well accept it and plan your life for maximum success.

          That we have a shelf life of about 10 years?

          If you keep yourself on the shelf for the next ten years, you'll have a very hard time getting off the shelf. Now, at age 20, you have a golden opportunity that you'll never ever have again.

          Here's what I'd advise you if you were my sister asking for advice - find someone who you find sexually attractive and vet them thoroughly. No one your age will be established in life at this point so be realistic. Go after someone who has potential. He'll be just as immature as you are and that's okay because you're both 20-22 years old and you can only be that mature. You'll grow together.

          Read the book "for women only" and put it into practice. Hang around here and get advice on how to treat and not to treat your man. Believe in him and constantly build him up now, when you're both young, inexperienced and immature. Become irreplaceable to him and he'll never replace you for as long as you live (barring extraordinary circumstances).

          Now is your time to shine.

          [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

          I think for both sexes it depends on genetics and the person's routine. My dad always wore sunscreen, took care of his hair, liked to keep in shape and people thought he was twenty years younger than his age. Meanwhile my boyfriend gained some weight, doesn't have a skincare routine so he has some wrinkles, and my sister thought he was 10-15 years older than his actual age.

          Then there's me, who sometimes still gets mistaken for a high schooler, vs a girl I don't talk to anymore. I remember opening the door and my sister and I were shocked at how many wrinkles she had.

          [–]BewareTheOldMan 3 points4 points  (0 children)

          “Men age like wine, women like milk”

          When TRP Men repeat this mantra, they are especially referring to women who have been doing virtually everything wrong and making stupid relationship decisions and bad life-choices since her early teen years - only to "mature" at the magical ages between 28 to early 30s and start searching for a husband.

          If you review TRP, then you are aware of the behavior they despise in which a woman uses her better/best and prime, youthful years of attractiveness to often date, party, smoke, drink heavily, ingest or inject recreational drugs, have promiscuous and casual sex, and sometimes produce children with deadbeat losers/Bad Boys only to later claim they are now interested in Good Men whereas before these same women had zero interest in men who would be great husbands and fathers.

          Most men see this as insulting and refuse to consider this type of woman as candidate for wife and mother to his children as this subset of women is a bad investment, comes with a lot of emotional baggage from past relationships, and a questionable sexual history.

          Most women will do well enough if they marry early enough, at peak SMV (attractiveness), and do well at increasing their RMV (Relationship/Relative Market Value) by always being added-value to a man's life with demonstrated loyalty, dedication, support, and strong effort as an outstanding wife and exceptional mother.

          It's not a guarantee, but following that basic format generally keeps a man interested in the same woman for years to come.

          [–]sxcpopulargirl123 6 points7 points  (0 children)

          Men also age like milk. Do you know any older men? People hit like 50 yrs old and everyone's bodies start deteriorating, they become painfully grumpy and their outlook on life is different.

          [–]SKRedPill 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          Only if they lift and take care of their bodies...

          [–]batfish55 3 points4 points  (3 children)

          -Men are like dogs. Loyal AS FUCK if you treat us right. Don't worry too much. But don't pull the whole 'I'll just party my 20s away and lock someone down once I'm 28' thing.

          -If you're that worried about it, become something more than a pretty package. Aging is only terrifying if you place all of your value on your looks.

          [–]bloobird08 5 points6 points  (0 children)

          Most women who have taken care of themselves won’t look bad by 28. i think if a woman’s completely lost her looks by 28, that’s probably a sign she was never truly beautiful to begin with.

          [–]subgirl182 2 points3 points  (1 child)

          I was super hot in my twenties and met my guy at 22. Didn't appreciate my looks at all but at least I got a guy of similar smv to me. The I looks atrocious in my thirties due to having babies and going mad trying to control everything, sex drive gone. My mans smv went up and mine went down! I'm 40 now and looking and feeling much better now and my poor lovely husband is getting spoilt again so I think we're getting back to the same level. I'm lucky he stuck it out with me at my worst for 10 whole years! Loyal as fuck!

          [–]batfish55 6 points7 points  (0 children)

          It's really not hard to keep a guy happy and around. Don't bitch, stay fit (within reason, you're not 22 anymore, how much can someone really expect?), and keep his dick happy. He'll never leave. Check the stats, men rarely initiate divorce.

          [–]SweetMembership 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          I'm not into RedPill movement but I always find this topic kind of... eh.. interesting. It's down to genetics and self care regardless of gender. I've seen some men that have aged awfully looks-wise (this is going to sound bad, but white men usually don't age well, and Asian men tend to maintain their looks until their 40s/even 50s).

          I'm 25 and I think I'm at my best in looks at the moment. I was a chubby awkward looking teenager and hit my prime at around 22 years old. I'm a late bloomer with a baby face, usually get told I look 16-20 instead of my actual age.

          [–]lespetiteschoses 3 points4 points  (0 children)

          "the wall" is just a fancy word for getting older and attracting less attention than you used to.

          For a woman who looks after herself, the wall can be very soft. For a man who doesn't, it can hit him like a ton of bricks.

          Take good care of yourself now and you can be very attractive well into your 30s, keeping in mind that a woman has far more to offer than just her looks. Once you've got a good man, the position of wife and mother attracts an almost superhuman kind of respect in his eyes.

          [–]Pixie03103 Stars 1 point2 points  (27 children)

          Unfortunately, it's true in the sense it was meant. Men often remain much more physically attractive than women with age.

          Perfect example (because it's fresh in my mind)? Stars of Schitt's Creek, playing a married couple:

          He's 71.

          She's 64.

          Ouch.

          That being said, there are some interesting things to note. Like, I drank / ate way too much in my 20s, kept my hair short, didn't dress well, etc. In my early 30s now, I'm 50 lbs lighter and sober. I look sooooo much better than I did (probably went from a 5.5 to a 7.5), and my SMV is probably higher now (though if I had taken care of myself in my 20s, it would've been higher - but as things were and are, it's higher now).

          Plus, if you use your best potential years (early 20s-ish) to lock down a truly well-vetted and good LTR, you won't need to worry about this so much! Always take the best possible care of yourself, and things will be okay. A really good guy won't cast you aside just for just getting older.

          [–]bloobird08 8 points9 points  (10 children)

          To be fair, that man is a celebrity, he was in many hit movies, so his wealth and status elevate him above most older men. I don’t think that same 70 year old man would have the same sex appeal in any sense if he was some random guy at the office. Some men seem to think that all older men are desired regardless of celebrity status or wealth and it’s not true at all from what I’ve seen.

          [–]Pixie03103 Stars 1 point2 points  (7 children)

          True but I've seen real life examples too. That one was freshest in my mind, but I could've used my own parents. Dad's 16 years older and looks better at 74 than my mom does at 58. It happens.

          I don't think that particular actor has sex appeal necessarily, but he certainly has aged better than the particular actress playing his wife. Men simply - as a general rule (with some exceptions) - seem to age better physically.

          That's really all I meant.

          [–]bloobird08 7 points8 points  (6 children)

          Idk, I guess I don’t agree. My parents live near a lot of older couples and a lot of the men don’t look any better than the women. Maybe you can find certain examples but I think most older men just don’t have much sex appeal. They have status and wealth but that’s different than women lusting after them.

          [–]Pixie03103 Stars 0 points1 point  (5 children)

          I haven't really been discussing sex appeal. I'm discussing more the physical aspects of ageing: wrinkling skin, sagging, weight gain, (all of which can be amplified by childbirth) etc.

          [–]Pixie03103 Stars 1 point2 points  (4 children)

          Tbh I'm a little confused at all these comments. All you have to do is look at Hollywood to see what happens to actresses that hit a certain age, versus actors that hit the same age.

          The men stay leading men. The women are replaced by the next crop of younger hotties. It's not nice, and it doesn't speak to their character as people or their worth as people / partners, but it still is reality.

          [–]bloobird08 3 points4 points  (3 children)

          Yes, but those are famous men. They don’t represent the average man. We can’t base rules around outliers. For example, George Clooney. He was a very beautiful man when he was younger, and is very good looking now. But how many average men have EVER looked like George Clooney? Very few. I also think George Clooney’s fame and wealth elevate him above most men. So overall, as a rule, I think men and women in general just don’t age well.

          [–]Pixie03103 Stars 2 points3 points  (2 children)

          Yes, and they are famous women, who are more attractive to start with than every "normal" women. Actresses are equal to Clooney to start. Plus, they have access to plastic surgery and every trick to beat ageing.

          Still, is there an older female equivalent to Clooney? A 60 year old beautiful actress who seems 100% ageless or gets more attractive with age?

          And I mean by the standards of Hollywood / average men.

          I can not think of one.

          It just feels like there's some level of denial / virtue signalling going on. I agree that looks alone do not equal value, but old isn't "beautiful" on women - and it's not the same for men. A large part of female beauty in the male eye relates to fertility - even if they don't consciously realise it - so older, infertile women are at a disadvantage in comparison to their male counterparts of the same age.

          [[EDIT / ADDITIONAL NOTE: This isn't just a Hollywood thing. Look at the market for female anti-ageing products. Have you seen a commercial for a men's wrinkle cream? Why is that?]]

          I didn't come up with the saying - but I do think it's a saying for a reason... However, happy to agree to disagree.

          [–]IsaGuz 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          Clooney is not that handsome.

          I concede that men hit the wall at about 50 and women at about 40... and with "hitting the wall" I mean losing most of their sex-appeal. And even so, there are outliers. I know a 50-year old female judge who still turns heads.

          [–]aftertheafter-party2 Star 0 points1 point  (1 child)

          Also, her eye makeup is horrendous in that photo

          [–]Pixie03103 Stars -1 points0 points  (0 children)

          That's basically how she wears it.

          Regardless of makeup, she hasn't aged well, especially compared to this particular older actor.

          [–][deleted]  (15 children)

          [deleted]

            [–][deleted]  (14 children)

            [deleted]

              [–]Pixie03103 Stars 1 point2 points  (13 children)

              I get all this, but either I have really missed something here, or I am going crazy, or I don't know what. Lol.

              A basic RP theory - and theory of evolutionary sexual attraction - is that a large (probably the largest) part of what sexually attracts men to women is their ability to bear children and their health, which is absolutely tied up with their youth.

              The same is not true for men, who not only are able to make babies well into their twilight years, but who also tend to be better providers, more stable, and so often more attractive to women as they age (depending on a lot of variables). Yes, there is a cut off point to this - young, virile women aren't regularly chasing around 85 year old men - because at a certain point, they are too old / weak / unable to provide.

              But to try to ignore the fact that women are less attractive with age to a greater degree than men are less attractive with age seems to go 180 degrees from everything that I know to be RP. That doesn't mean all older women are ugly, or all older men are attractive.

              But a major factor of sexual attraction for men to women absolutely is youth and fertility. So as women are less young and less fertile, they are less attractive to men as a general rule. Whereas men in their 30s, 40s, etc, do not have quite the same evolutionary odds stacked against them.

              Honestly am I crazy here? Is this not a known thing? I genuinely feel like I've slipped into the twilight zone haha. So many of these comments are just ignoring what I thought was basic RP 101.

              [–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[M] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              You are not wrong. It is RP 101. There is a good deal of hamstering going on in the comments section.

              [–][deleted]  (4 children)

              [deleted]

                [–]Pixie03103 Stars 0 points1 point  (3 children)

                even the most alpha males of our society hardly ever date much outside of their age range.

                HuH???//?/?

                So most older, wealthy, powerful men don't marry much younger women?

                Are you serious?

                I think maybe we are on different planets.

                [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                [deleted]

                  [–]Pixie03103 Stars 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                  these are usually guys with narcisstic tendencies

                  Do the stats say that too?

                  Idk, I have no emotional stock in this one way or the other tbh. I was talking what I thought was basic evolutionary theory. I am not personally offended or upset by it. I don't think age gap relationships = narcissism, and I don't think that there aren't a lot of relationships that aren't age-gap.

                  I do think it's a fact that men's SMV doesn't decrease with age as drastically as women's, and I'm pretty positive that's a generally accepted RP theory - and not in the men's circles only.

                  Beyond that, whatever personality disorders you believe men have for liking younger women or whatever... okie! Really no skin off my back.

                  [–]IsaGuz 0 points1 point  (6 children)

                  Yes, you're right. However, the OP is asking about value... And to be honest:

                  1. The very coveted George Clooney married then 36-year old career woman Amal Alamuddin. He could have got himself a 20-year old, but he found a younger woman... yet a woman (grown, mature, cultivated, with a career) nonetheless.

                  So, the point of the answers is: "Is your life over at 25?" Nope. "Do all men marry 20 year olds?" No, some want a woman they can talk with and whom can share responsibilities, and maturity comes with age.

                  Do men get the biggest automatic boners with the 18-to 24 year olds? Yes, absolutely.

                  Does it end your life? It depends. Am I interested in having all men desire to fuck me? No. Then, it doesn't worry me. Am I interested in having one particular man love me? Yes. Does he love me and is he still sexually attracted to me? Yes. More so than when I was 18, twenty years ago? Yes.

                  Deal.

                  Is your life over at 40 if you spent the last twenty years doing drugs, getting drunk, having hook ups or fatherless children, you don't have a job, a career or anything that might interest a mature man? Well, it's not like your life is over, but don't expect a man to marry you then.

                  [–]THROW_IT_AWAY925 -1 points0 points  (5 children)

                  I don't understand something here. We hear repeatedly that men will always want to fuck 18 to 25 year olds, but no talk of the reverse. When I'm in my 40s, 50s, 60s, 25-year-old studs are still going to get my juices flowing, too. Both men and women are attracted to youth, smooth skin, energy, etc. Why is that ignored? It's as if we are being lead to believe women are only valued for a short time and men are valued for their whole lives when really, both men and women, despite age, are turned on by young, hot bodies?

                  [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                  I do not believe the reverse is as frequently true. It's certainly not for me. How old are you? I'm 35, I'm disturbed at the idea of a much younger man for sex. He might be pretty to look at but I bring too much more to the table in terms of life experience to find him appealing. I know this is not true of all women, but I don't think I'm an outlier either.

                  [–]THROW_IT_AWAY925 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

                  I'm 28. I've always been more attracted to men 5-8 years older than me and have never dated men my age. I think women think of the whole package, like is this man mature? Would he make a good husband? Is he well travelled? etc and then come to the conclusion they wouldn't be attracted to a younger man for reasons like that. But realistically we're just talking about if they are sexually attractive. Older men would love to have sex with younger women even tho they too are immature, not well experienced, etc. So I still stand behind my statement. Most everyone of both sexes would still like to have sex with the younger of the opposite sex, but actually dating them is another story.

                  [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  I disagree that it's a whole package issue. I think men take a whole to fill out and look like men. In general I think 25 is the age that men start looking more like men. A 20 year old woman looks like a woman a 20 year old man can still look like a kid and I find that gross.

                  Maybe at 60 a "young" 35 guy would be appealing but now...give me age over youth. Youth in men simply isn't attractive.

                  And sex is so mental for women I don't see how you can detach the idea of the man from the physical man anyway. However if we are going purely on looks, there is a necessary lower bound for a man to look like a man not a child and it's much older than the lower bound for women.

                  [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor -3 points-2 points  (1 child)

                  There's a big difference between young men having sex with older women vs young women having sex with older men.

                  Women are the gatekeepers of sex and therefore, they hold the sexual power. They decide if sex happens or not regardless of what age they are. The dynamics are therefore not the same.

                  Additionally, a young man will have sex with an older woman either because she's much easier to bed than the girls his age. Or because she's experienced and can teach him some tricks. Or because he's using her as a practice run, to gain sexual experience and prowess. Or a combination of these reasons.

                  However you cut it, the older woman is not valued by the younger man. If a younger woman presents herself, he'll choose her any day unless there's some other factor like the younger woman being a bitch.

                  OTOH, many younger women genuinely consider older men to be sexy. How much older before he's too old will vary from woman to woman, but the common denominator is that many (but not all) will find older men sexy.

                  And like u/girlwithabike said - really young men aren't sexy. This is because strength (etc) is sexy in men while youth (etc) is sexy in women. Therefore, a man only becomes fully sexy when he has fully matured into a man.

                  That's the difference.

                  [–]THROW_IT_AWAY925 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  You're speaking like your opinion is fact. I don't know any women who would rather bed an older man than a young stud. Young men are at prime strength and agility, thus why football players and athletes are mainly young studs, and a rarity past age 35. There will always be outliers - young women who prefer older men, young men who prefer older women - but the reality is young, hot men and women are the ideal for both sexes. Suggesting otherwise is ludicrous.

                  [–]CleburnCO 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  If your value is based on physical beauty and sex, yes...age will crush those things.

                  If your value is based on traditional femininity with the cascading levels of value in that you are the cornerstone of a home, a family, and the primary carer for children that are the center of his universe...then your value is not tied to simply beauty and sex.

                  The concept of women age like milk is only true if the value of that woman is limited to beauty and sex. Be more than that.

                  [–][deleted]  (4 children)

                  [removed]

                  [–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[M] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

                  Your gender is irrelevant and your personal preferences are not advice. Removed.

                  [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                  [removed]

                    [–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[M] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                    We don't recommend most men casually post on RedPillWomen, because a lot of them aren't very good at it. You're always welcome to lurk and read, but if you're going to participate, your familiarity with the norms and values of this sub should be apparent when you post.

                    If you intend on posting here, you must be familiar with our sidebar, particularly the sections about male participation. Start with these: If you’re a guy and you’re here read this and Commitment or GTFO

                    Since you started with "as a man" I know you have not read the rules for men posting here.

                    [–]consios88 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    oh ok gotcha. will respect your space.

                    [–]ihatenewreddit123 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    A male with perfect genetics has the potential to be a 10/10 at 25

                    A male with perfect genetics has the potential to be a 9.5/10 at 45

                    A woman with perfect genetics has the potential to be a 10/10 until 25

                    A woman with perfect genetics has the potential to be at best a 7.5/10 at 45

                    I think thats the difference.

                    [–]cynicalhousewife 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    I don't think either sex has trouble finding relationships primarily because of age. Older people get together all the time. The main advantage that men have over women is that they have much longer to start a family.

                    [–]WhatIsThisAccountFor3 Star 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                    You will never have as many options as you will during your prime. If you take care of yourself, for women that prime time is realistically between 17ish-24 depending on the woman. The difference is that men usually have the most options between 25-35. It’s a wider window and later in life for them to have more of an option to realize how valuable they are.

                    You shouldn’t be some disgusting hag by the time you hit 30, but to say that you can be as good looking then as you could be now if you take care of yourself is not realistic. Wrinkles, sagging, cellulite, and general things like skin glow/tightness, hair health etc all start to go down hill after 25ish for women. You simply can’t beat time or gravity.

                    [–]IsaGuz 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    Hey, visible cellulite can be killed with enough lunging, squatting and good morninging. Just forget about creams and hit the barbell. Same for sagging breasts... Firming lotion and bench press will do wonders for those babies.

                    [–]boisdevie 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    Men and women get older but we can do a lot to influence how we get older. I'm a 54 year old guy and whilst I can't do much about my receding hairline I can do a lot to keep slim and fit. Getting unfit and fat as you get older is not inevitable - that's just a pathetic excuse - for either sex.

                    [–]MadamePenumbra -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                    Yahhhh, nooooo. That all just sounds like negging.

                    [–]zaze12 -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

                    My father have female fans,women who call him because near 70 year old is still an handsom charming man.My mother instead hitted the wall loooong time ago but they are at same age. It's aneddotical but most women at 40 are undesiderable,a lot of men at 40 are fine.