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THEORYThe great myth of male-female friendship. (self.RedPillWomen)

submitted by loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor

Hello all, I hope everyone is having a great day today. Today I will write about an issue that keeps coming up on this sub as well as many others, an issue that causes many issues in life - male-female friendships.

I firmly believe that it's unnatural for men and women to be "just friends", that overcoming this nature is nearly impossible. I think that much heartache can be spared by understanding these truths

Friendship is a form of intimacy. Sexual bonding is a very different form of intimacy, the polar opposite to friendship.

Sexual intimacy is the union of opposites. Men and women are worlds apart. Men and women - generally speaking - think, speak and behave completely differently. What may be interesting or exciting to one gender is weird or boring to the other gender. Naturally, we need a way to bring these opposites together for the continuation of our species.

When an eligible man and woman come into the presence of one another, they instinctively act differently. Even if they're just two people sitting next to each other on the train, two people who don't say a word to one another, their body language will change in the presence of a suitor from the opposite sex. This is even more true if they do interact. An inter-gender interaction will be very different from a same gender interaction even when no sexual innuendo is present.

When a man and a woman go out on a date: they'll each dress up, scent up and be on their best behavior. In order to bring these two opposites together, each one must display the very best version of themselves.

Friendship OTOH, is the exact opposite. A group of guy friends hanging out may use colourful language, dirty jokes, burp, fart, punch each other for the heck of it and get into wrestling matches. A group of girl friends may squish 15 girls on a couch meant for 3, squeal and screech, talk for hours on end, bawl their eyes out over I'm not sure what, break into giggling fits and plenty of gossip. In friendship, you're safe to display your very worst.

Both of these forms of intimacy are very necessary.

Men don't talk nearly as much as women do. Even when we talk, it's different, especially when it comes to emotions. Women like to talk things out, men like to fix things. Women like to feel the feelings, men like to resolve them. We each view the other as weird. This youtube video demonstrates this point beautifully.

With friends we're free to display the worst version of ourselves, but with our sexual partners it is likely to kill attraction. A guy who displays his insecurities or a girl who bawls her eyes out will have a harder time being attractive to their mates. (Of course there are many examples).

When you're married, you get the whole package. The morning breath, the mood swings, the insecurities etc. However, we all know that minimising exposure to this side of ourselves is always a good idea. Sure, we need not feel self conscious about our morning breath, but we also need to brush our teeth at the earliest possible time to minimise our spouses exposure to our morning breath. In sexual intimacy we need to display as much of our best selves and as little of our worst selves as possible.

A beta man is unattractive to a woman. To her, the guy is almost like a woman himself with all his feminine behavior.... Therefore, in her mind, he can be "just a friend" like all of her other friends from whom she'll seek emotional validation and other girly friend stuff. However, to the guy, he feels that he has a greater chance of getting into her pants or into a relationship with her if he'll be her friend first. He assumes that if he's there for her during all her emotional mood swings, seeing her during her absolute worst and being there for her through these times that she'll find him attractive. Oh the let down when he realizes that this will never happen.....

We all know that this guy is unattractive. We call him a beta orbitor. What isn't talked about enough is the dynamic behind this. She thinks he's just a friend because he's acting feminine like her girl friends while he thinks he's building sexual attraction by being soft and feminine because that's what he finds attractive! It's a recipe for disaster and plenty of heartache. The flip-side of this dynamic is that male-female friendship is nearly impossible.

Here's another youtube video demonstrating how men realize that we can't be just friends while women think that "just friends" is possible.

Before I conclude, I need to clarify a point. The difference between friends and friendly. Everything I said in this post is about being friends. It goes without saying that men and women can and should be friendly to one another and to treat each other with respect and dignity. Being friendly isn't the same as being friends. I'm sure most of you know this differentiation, but I'm putting it out there because there's always someone who would pick on something like this.

Cheers!


[–]HisHumbleDarling 28 points29 points  (14 children)

I agree with you. The only way a man and a woman can truly be friends is if one of them is gay or lesbian.

Every friendship between a man and a woman usually ends up with one person becoming sexually attracted to the other. It's ingrained in our DNA.

[–]glawkneintehn 9 points10 points  (6 children)

Yep! As much as I have tried to avoid it I've had sex with ALL of my good female friends. Though to be honest these were all friends who showed IOIs to me when we met but I was too stupid to notice or I was in an exclusive relationship at the time. I didn't really feel much attraction to them at first but didn't mind their company so they stuck around. My complete and utter lack of sexual interest drove them insane. Most of them just couldn't take it and went straight for a makeout session. But then as soon as it got serious they didn't want anything to do with me. I feel their intention was just sexual validation at that point.

[–]sunkindonut149 0 points1 point  (5 children)

I've had sex with ALL of my good female friends.

none of your good female friends are gay or asexual? >_>

[–]glawkneintehn 4 points5 points  (4 children)

I am exaggerating but only a little bit. And I actually don't have any female friends that are such. Plus my interests and hobbies are not ones that women tend to join in on. Guns, racing, lifting, working on cars trucks and machinery, inventing shit.

So any female friends I do have outside of class work professional relationships and those already dating my friends that I haven't banged are for meeting more women. Turns out women know a lot of women.

[–]sunkindonut149 1 point2 points  (3 children)

I think there are an equal amount of men and women who have cars and therefore need to do things like fix them because otherwise, its mad expensive. Fixing cars at home leads to tuning and tuning leads to drifting.

My friend races cars at a race track because he is too old to race in the street and his wife also likes to watch. He also tunes cars. Also both guys and girls can be gangstas and interested in guns. There are more women dealing rock than you think.

I am asexual and it doesn't keep me from hanging out with people who are married.

[–]glawkneintehn 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I don't work on other peoples shit. period. Also most people (especially women) are not "interested" in working on cars they just want to save money as you said and would like to use me as a free mechanic. No.

It's not that I don't have female friends that like to go shoot guns and fuck with cars etc... But we've already fucked so we're back to my original comment lol.

[–]sunkindonut149 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I would have assumed that more asexual or gay women would be into the gun and car things. Especially gay women.

[–]glawkneintehn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've honestly only met one of each but then again probably don't know about the rest.

[–]Bloommagical 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Came here to say this. My best friend is a guy he's gay, so that can definitely happen. My good friend in college, however, I had to ultimately cut out of my life because I was very attracted to him.

[–]pinkdrawings 12 points13 points  (0 children)

I was just about to come add this. The only male friend I've had (that stayed a friend) was gay.

[–]Mentathiel 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Curious, what do you think about friendships between straight and lesbian females?

[–]pinkdrawings 4 points5 points  (3 children)

Not that different from heterosexual friendships, honestly.

[–]Mentathiel 2 points3 points  (2 children)

As in heterosexual male-female or female-female?

[–]pinkdrawings 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Heterosexual female-female. I mean of course people can cherry pick cases where there was some stalker-esque crush, and all of that. However - those are few and far between.

[–]Mentathiel 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh, okay, thanks! Didn't have much experience with it and it seemed like what you said and I hoped it was like what you said! :)

[–]lacygnus 11 points12 points  (4 children)

I have two lifelong male friends and I’d say the only reason why our friendship is securely outside of the possibility of sexual intimacy is the following reasons:

1) We’ve known each other since we were in diapers, literally. We grew up together and not just in a ‘I see you every so often at family bbqs’ kinda way. Our moms are best friends, we spent probably every single day together until we were about 5 and started going to kindergarten and from then on we saw each other at school and often on weekends. I call their parents my ‘aunts’ and ‘uncles’. The notion of us being sexually intimate is as repulsive to me as if someone were to suggest I have sex with my cousin.

2) One of them is the gayest gay that ever gayed (his words, not mien) and is also married, the other is married to a very good friend of mine (I set them up actually).

3) We’ve never been remotely sexual with each other.

[–]AboveZoom 4 points5 points  (3 children)

I've heard of studies that show if you grow-up with a hetero-opposite-sex friend, and the relationship started before a certain age, you are highly likely to psychologically register that person as a sibling.

I might be pulling this out of thin air, but it seems like it would make sense.

[–]En-Zu 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Westermark effect

[–]AboveZoom 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Thanks!

[–]En-Zu 1 point2 points  (0 children)

finger guns

[–]VigilantRedRoosterModerator 10 points11 points  (2 children)

This can be difficult to impossible in our 20s. As people mature and gain more life experience and fulfillment, it becomes much easier and more natural.

From my mid-30s on, it has become more common to remain on a cordial basis with exes even. Several became clients of my business (4 figure spend over time) specifically because they feel they can trust me.

I recognize that I am an outlier in this regard. Especially when you're in a relationship, one must be vigilant that friends aren't carrying a little torch for you. In my experience and observation, platonic friendships aren't a myth at all. I didn't say they're common or simple, but I don't agree that they're categorically impossible.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

one must be vigilant

Username checks out ;)

I don't agree that they're categorically impossible.

Every rule has exceptions. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying it's unlikely. In most cases, the woman will think that they're "just friends", while the man would really like to jump her bones if given the opportunity. He just doesn't attempt it for other reasons.

[–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor 7 points8 points  (17 children)

You know what's strange? I've met men with whom there was a sexual attraction to, then when we start talking, depending on the conversation I begin to see them as a friend. It's mostly topics where we're both complaining or discussing a something like a current event.

Basically, when men start talking to me like my girlfriends talk to me, the sexual attraction is gone. My boyfriend doesn't treat me like a friend but rather a girlfriend so we maintain attraction.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 7 points8 points  (4 children)

then when they start talking

And display unattractive qualities

I begin to see them as a friend

But they still see you as a sexual being.

Basically, when men start talking to me like my girlfriends talk to me, the sexual attraction is gone.

Because men and women are attracted to each other. A feminine man and a masculine woman are generally unattractive to the opposite sex.

[–]Duke_LFG -1 points0 points  (3 children)

OP, what is your opinion when a girl says hes like a brother? Dating a girl who likes to hold peoples' hands. She says hes nothing more than a brother and thats it.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I answered your question it in the OP. Read it again for the full answer. The short answer is that she can say that from her perspective. However, he will likely have a different perspective on the matter. He probably won't admit to it right away, but his actions will give him away and if you do get a real answer he'll likely admit to wanting to have sex even though she said that he's like a brother to her. Watch the second video linked in the OP.

[–]Duke_LFG 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ah, sorry. I didnt have time this morning to watch the videos, only enough to read your post.

What you wrote is reassuring. The woman actually might feel like they're siblings.

[–]lacygnus 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Honestly, would you not find it a little bit strange if a fully grown woman still held her brother's hand? I know I would.

[–]Boygzilla 1 point2 points  (5 children)

I'm still working out the right middle ground between being mysterious and total no filter when it comes to the early stages of dating. My natural tendency is to go no filter: talk about sex, past relationships, politics, any possible topic that seems interesting given the arc of a conversation. It's worked a majority of the time I'd say, and by "worked" I mean I end up seeing the girl again and often having sex relatively early. It does seem though they the interest between us tapers off rather quickly about the one month mark, sometimes mutually, sometimes because I lose interest, and sometimes because she does. The thing is: I don't text or call girls casually, just for setting up dates. I end up getting pegged for aloof and, I assume, incongruent. Not sure what to do really. Force myself to end dates sooner? Refrain from sex on the second or third date?

[–]lacygnus 1 point2 points  (4 children)

I've never really dated casually so take what I say with a grain of salt:

I really encourage some level of savoring the 'getting-to-know-you' stage. If you're open to going no filter with everyone then I feel like some girls can sense it and they don't necessarily feel special. Not only that but it doesn't feel special to you when you find someone to go no filter with because you do it with most.

I'm not saying be a cold fish but maybe hold back a bit? Totally be warm and a great conversationalist and all those things but tone it down a bit so that when you do find someone where you find yourself comfortable enough to sink into that 'no filter' zone, it'll give you that understanding that this person is different than the rest.

I could be completely wrong and like they say, you don't ask a fish how to catch it so maybe this question might be better suited to AskTRP or TheRedPill, or for one of the fellows on here to answer... but in my humble opinion if you're looking for that special lady in your life I'd start being more stringent with who I allow to see the more intimate side of me (not just talking about getting naked with someone, although that, too).

To be totally honest, there's still some parts of my boyfriend that are a bit mysterious to me and I kind of like that. There's obviously a difference between being shady and being coy, it's just a question of finding it.

[–]Boygzilla 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Thoughtful response - thanks. That's pretty congruent with what I've heard and read elsewhere almost universally. It's likely a function of age too. I'm in my late 20s now and what worked in college and the bar scene isn't going to be as attractive with long term dating. With high frequency dating like on apps I likely need to dial it down

[–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Try taking her to do things instead of just talking to her. Women can talk to anyone, it's easy. What she can't do is find cool new places, go out certain places alone, wander around at night feeling safe. Talking is normal for us, make us feel like you're doing something different.

Chemistry is also quite important, for instance I prefer stoic men and are completely unattracted to bright and happy cherubic men. Also if you're meeting girls who aren't looking for LTRs then you'll have an extra difficult time to keep them. But yeah, don't ask a fish how to catch itself.

[–]Boygzilla 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I'm honestly pretty good at that. On the first date I'm always taking mental notes of things she enjoys that I can incorporate for later dates (i.e. She likes horses, so I take her to the race track). I'm realistic about chemistry too. If it's not there I don't labor at dating that particular girl. I think it's mainly a function of dating girl off apps who are also dating a few diff people (same thing I do), me provoking deep and expansive convo that should be unraveled over months not weeks, and then usually escalating to sex right away. Oh well, could be worse. I need to get off the apps and meet girls in real life more frequently. They tend to be higher quality dates.

[–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In that case, that's difficult even for the girl when they're dating several men at once (I've been through the same and the only times my LTRs have began is when there was no one else in the picture). Right time and place, I suppose...😉

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I think its because these men made the tone platonic rather than sexual because they were afraid to commit to a sexual relationship for some reason, so female attraction with enough SMV behind it is just wired to shut off if men aren't serious enough, to protect against men who might not be attracted enough to the woman they are talking to, which threatens that woman's survival in the sense that she lacks sexual and romantic leverage. But lower SMV women can possibly tolerate more initial platonic talk consciously, or be subconsciously wired to tolerate more initial platonic talk, as a result of having less of a dating pool or maybe even perceiving that they do. If a guy falls in love with a woman, but her attraction drops away, he can get a lot of emotional pain out of it; so its sort of ironic, because men can end up fearing initiating a sexual relationship with a woman right off the bat because they didn't do this with women in the past, which shuts off the initial attraction the woman had, and then it becomes a cycle of pain.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

men start talking to me like my girlfriends talk to me

Otherwise known as beta oribiters

[–]En-Zu 0 points1 point  (3 children)

What are men supposed to talk to you about?

[–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (2 children)

That's the thing - I don't call my boyfriend "just to talk." We bond through activities. Gabbing on the phone or in person is a female activity. I've never talked to my boyfriend like a real conversation - usually I'll say something here and there and he's listening to me but he either doesn't respond or he'll make a joke.

If he takes me out he might comment on some things that we see - for instance we went to a museum and he'll tell me some side history that he knows. Or last week he took me to a new restaurant and he told me a story about how he found the restaurant. Sometimes he complains about work at the dinner table but usually he just says a few things and leaves it at that. I don't need to "console" him like a girlfriend.

If I go to him with a problem though, he definitely talks through it with me and he's quite good at that.

However, I prefer stoic men. I'm very unattracted to men who talk too much. It could just be me.

[–]En-Zu 0 points1 point  (1 child)

That's pretty interesting. I wouldn't mind finding someone with those same preferences. I rarely ever talk about my personal life and really don't even remember things about it to talk about even if I wanted to. I definitely prefer to listen and I've always been blown away at how some girls can just chat it up.

I've got mixed opinions on this. On the one hand, there's an expectation for men to not to gab on about trivial things to a woman. On the other hand, there's also an expectation to not look like a boring stick and there's at least some expectation for you to lead the conversation.

[–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think the important thing is to make sure when you do talk, it's of substance. On my first date, my boyfriend talked about how he traveled to China and some crazy things he did there, and some history of his home country that I didn't know about, and some of the music he liked during his childhood. But note that he didn't gab on and on about himself. He's quite good at "holding frame" and he'll even ignore my texts if he thinks I'm texting too much. I appreciate this about him.

I do think my boyfriend is pretty charismatic in a quietly confident way so that's why I'm not always expecting him to impress me. I know he's got his wheels turning, he just doesn't feel the need to loudly announce it to the world. I also respect him a lot already though.

My boyfriend is in construction and there was one date where after dinner he just started driving somewhere...I kept asking him where we were going and he just told me to wait. Then he pulls up to a construction site and showed me what he was working on. That's just an example of how he shows me he's interesting but he doesn't talk about it. Or a few days ago he texted me a picture of this incredible view of a home in Cairo that faces the pyramids, and all he said was "my friend's home in Cairo, we can go there any time we want." Then I was texting him back how amazing and beautiful the view was and he just didn't reply, haha.

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (3 children)

I'm so glad someone wrote a post about this, I feel many women bristle on this subject when this off of RP theory is brought up.

I've had a few close male friends over the years and I usually ended up dating them. My most recent close male friend, we genuinely had no feelings for each other for about 7-8 months. Then we went on a date. I just delivered his child 25 days ago. So yes, because of my experiences, I'm inclined to agree with this tennent.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I'm so glad someone wrote a post about this,

Thank you.

[–]a4b 2 points3 points  (1 child)

we genuinely had no feelings for each other for about 7-8 months

Well, maybe that was just you.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Could also be true. But we ended up married so in the end it doesn't matter much, lol

[–]sharontravels 6 points7 points  (2 children)

My SO and I had an argument about this early on in the relationship. He believed men and women could be just friends, I told him no. He was always used by women as a person to vent too. Secretly, he probably wanted to date all his women friends. But was rejected by them. After we walked about it, he saw what I was talking about.

Not surprisingly since we got together, he hasn't been very close to those women friends. Also not surprising some of those women were not friendly with me because I had taken their "secret blanket" away.

That's why it's important to never vent your problems about your relationship to the opposite sex. That's how cheating often begins.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Exactly!

Also not surprising some of those women were not friendly with me because I had taken their "secret blanket" away.

Not surprising at all. True nature of 'friendship' exposed.

[–]sharontravels 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sorry for all the typos. It should be "security blanket" Indeed the true nature of "friendship".

[–]missaudreyhorne 8 points9 points  (1 child)

This is absolutely true. I think if you'd had a friend of the opposite sex since childhood and no attraction on either side occurred, that may be an exception.

it feels totally sleezy to me even thinking about hanging out with any of the guys I used to consider platonic male friends now that I am in a HEALTHY serious relationship.

When I was in an unhappy relationship, I felt no need to get rid of my male friends. There was no sexual attraction on my part or theirs (as far as I could tell) so I felt justified in keeping them even if my boyfriend at the time seemed put off. Now, the idea of hanging out with the same guys makes me really uncomfortable. Possibly because I respect the man I am with now more & know I wouldn't feel OK with him having female friends. I'm not entirely sure.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

There was no sexual attraction on my part or theirs (as far as I could tell)

This is wishful thinking. Trust me, I'd be willing to bet good money that at least some of these guys jerked it to you in the privacy of their own homes after spending all that time with you....

The fact that you feel no need for male friends when your relationship is good but you did feel this to be useful when your relationships weren't good only reinforces my point. They served a specific need for you. Serving that need made them utterly unattractive to you. However, I'm sure they didn't feel the same way...

As adults, they controlled their behavior and treated you with respect. However, a person has no control over his or her desires. This internal desire ruins the form of intimacy that friendship is, as explained in op.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[deleted]

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I haven't seen that.

[–]SuperSlavisWifeEndorsed Contributor 7 points8 points  (5 children)

As one of those women who grew up eschewing female company: your guard is always up, at least a little bit, around male friends. There's more than one reason why tomboys wear baggy, masculine, or "man repelling" fashion, why even when we can wear makeup to a passable standard we generally don't, why we don't mind being accused of being lesbian or other forms of social shaming. The obvious reason is that we're more comfortable being slouchy, messy, and we really don't care what anyone but our nearest think of us. The other reason is that we've learned to make it easy for our male friends to see our disinterest.

That's not to say there's no interest. Even if the guy in question is non-bio family, or a friend of your partner, or someone you grew up with, he can still see you as a woman. But if you want a male friend, you need to masculinize yourself around him. It's not about tricking anyone into thinking you're a guy, so much as showing, nice and clearly, that you aren't putting any effort in for him.

Still not great, but between being tomboyish, sticking to shared friends and my general low need to interact socially, I can make up for the fact I know one woman in person who I have enough in common with for a lasting relationship. I don't want to be squeezed onto a couch or be around loud people or shop. I want to watch anime, drink gin/coffee, go on hikes and to festivals, and plot out ideas for books we will probably never get a chance to write.

PS: Some girls seem to assume that being unfeminine will make you instantly undesirable, so they don't need to be careful at all. Being into "guy stuff" does not make guys any less likely to be drawn to you than if you cry on their shoulder. Possibly the opposite. I'm willing to bet most guys have a memory of some tomboy they thought was cute. Being greasy does not equal being "a man".

[–]Mentathiel 2 points3 points  (4 children)

I share this experience completely, as someone who also shares your ideas of fun! I agree with OP that these two types of friendships are fundamentally different and that parties will almost always see each other sexually instinctively, but I can't reconcile this, as I think we're more than instincts and it doesn't matter as long as both parties are aware of limitations and are getting something out of it. But I'm still not sure if I'm firm on this opinion, I'm still tumbling it over in my head. I should probably talk to my SO/more men about it to see their POV.

[–]SuperSlavisWifeEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (3 children)

The core issue is: attraction happens. We can make sure no signals are sent in error, that any advances are nipped in the bud and that the attraction stays purely instinctive, but it can still happen. I have no doubt that, given a no-strings, no-risk option, most of my male friends from age thirteen onward would have had no issue "ruining" the friendship. Even my own relationship with Jon stemmed from an online friendship where, after exchanging social media and phone numbers, we both sort of "noticed" the other one was a good looking member of the opposite sex. It did not take a lot to get the relationship from "just friends, honest" to "I like it when you bite my lips". I'm pretty confident that my judgement was sound on waiting it out until I met Jon and that he was distinctly compatible with me, but I'm also pretty confident that was not my only option, by miles. Guys like girls.

But when you know literally one person of your own sex who shares your interests, you start to try and form other connections. Which is a minefield, hence my rules: only friends I share with Jon, only when my BFF isn't available (or indeed, is present], only when I really need the company. But you will, for lack of a better explanation, end up as the "gay guy in a woman's body" or the "lesbian in a man's body". IE: to indulge your divergent social habits, you find you're surrounded by people who wonder if you're attracted to them and who may be attracted to you.

[–]Mentathiel 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I have two major male friends, one of which is a common very good friend of my SO and I, through whom we met. He was attracted to me during a rough patch after a breakup and it hurt me back then, as I didn't see the male-female dynamic as clearly as I do now. We forgave each other, tho, and now we're both in happy relationships and still hang out sometimes.

The other one is a friend from elementary school that I kept in contact with. We go out once or twice a year and sometimes invite each other to birthdays, we aren't very close and don't have that much in common, but can appreciate a couple of hours of each other's company once in a forever. We were in school together for years and went to chess classes and tournaments and traveled together for tournaments etc. and got pretty used to each other's company, I suppose. If I'm being completely honest, I think part of the reason we're keeping contact is for potential career benefit in the future, as we both know a lot of people, are likable and social and might end up in similar industries (he's going for management and I'm going for programming).

I cut out most of other men from my life, except sometimes in larger group events, occasionally running into them etc. And except family. I still don't mind male friends, but I feel no urge to make new ones, I suppose.

[–]SuperSlavisWifeEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Since moving in together I've found it easier to focus on Jon's friends for socializing, as there are pre-existing social rules and they focus more on him than me, which helps a lot. I think I'm also more comfortable with Jon's company than other women's or men's company. He scratches the social itch, all attraction and sexual attention is appropriate, and we have a lot in common.

Your second friend sounds a lot like a case of Westermarck Effect. Sometimes people who grow up closely together just can't see each other as potential partners. The relationship overview sounds pretty fraternal, anyways.

[–]Mentathiel 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree I'm most comfortable with my SO's company. We have largely separate friend groups, since we met through only one mutual friend. I do hang out with his friends sometimes, but I find that I couldn't be close with most of them, although spending time in larger groups goofing around is fine. But I want to allow him space for his masculine time and not be too needy/dependent on him (since I'm extroverted, it's probably somewhat different for an introvert), so I try and focus on my own friends more so he wouldn't worry or feel guilty about taking time for himself.

Your second friend sounds a lot like a case of Westermarck Effect. Sometimes people who grow up closely together just can't see each other as potential partners. The relationship overview sounds pretty fraternal, anyways.

Oh, I just read up on it and it seems a lot like it! As far as I've seen, studies were mostly done on children who were in peer groups before 6 years. We met when we were 8, but it does feel completely fraternal. Also, I suppose Westermarck Effect would explain why I don't feel inclined to start these sorts of friendships anymore, nor do I feel like I could. Thanks for the insight!

[–]i_have_a_semicolon 4 points5 points  (11 children)

I don't really see you making a point about women not being able to make friends with men. Just about men who have decided they want more than a friendship, which obviously makes sense why they aren't really friends. But if the guy isn't a beta orbiter , let's say they are peers and both happy and satisfied in their relationships and there's no mutual desire to act on any attraction instinct, well then that can be a friendship. Or as close as a male and female friendship your gonna get.

You have this singular view of masculinity and femininity. What if a man wants to divulge his feelings, too ? I mean, you said men resolve things. Women talk. So a man who wants to talk could feel even alienated from male friends due to societal pressure. Therefore it would make sense that he could even be more himself - his vulnerable self - with someone who hes not expecting to fix his problems. I get it. You say men dont have this feeling, well I'ma say you're narrow minded, anyway.

This is silly. Why discourage friendships between men and women ? Why not just discourage the act of being a beta orbiter ? Why should a man be the only one giving in a relationship of all different kinds, the women should be able to give back to her guy friend if what he seeks from friendship is just someone he could be his worst self with and not worry about attraction...be your honest self with your friends. Give without expectation of reciprocation, but don't be a friend to someone who does nothing but use and abuse you and has no value as a friend. Don't be a friend with someone whom you wish to attract.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 2 points3 points  (10 children)

Whoa?!?!?!?

[–]i_have_a_semicolon 0 points1 point  (9 children)

What, I'm sorry if what I said was offensive to you, but it's my interpretation of the problem. The problem isn't inherently with male and female friendship, but about your beta orbiter situation. Many women and men have experience a non-beta orbiting friendship. They're not particularly exceptional cases. I'd recon plenty of men and women have a friend of the opposite sex, and a majority of those friendships do not have much if any sexual attraction from either end and if there is any it's not pronounced in such a way that it actually prevents them from being them honest selves with each other. The only thing I won't discuss with a close male friend would be like, vaginal issues, or other very specifically female topics (periods, pregnancy, bras). Because he doesn't have a vagina and he's not a woman.... But other than that we are both human beings with the capacity to feel, love, think, and joke around. We can be quite honest and crude with each other. And we don't see each other in sexual ways because why would we ? There's no reason... Even if everyone does the mental "hot / cute / fugly" judgement, doesn't mean they are constantly facing attraction towards the opposite sex. Think of people who are satisfied by their relationships.... Anyway I'm sort of rambling here but ... I just feel like this post is way off base with reality.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 3 points4 points  (8 children)

I wasn't offended at all by what you said. I responded the way I did because you wrote a run on sentence rant. Had you written out your objections, clearly, point by point, I would have responded to each point as I've done with others and as I always do.

What I wrote in OP doesn't revolve around beta orbiting. If that's what you picked up, you misunderstood what I wrote. I brought in the beta orbitor as a side point. My post revolves around the fundamental difference between the intimacy of friendship and sexual intimacy. How they're polar opposites and therefore why it's highly unlikely to have a real friendship with a member of the opposite sex. The beta orbitor was brought in to demonstrate why women are more likely to convince themselves that they're "just friends".

[–]i_have_a_semicolon 1 point2 points  (6 children)

Yes of course they are polar opposites. But that doesn't mean that women and men can't be friends. Without the attraction on both ends, what makes it not just a regular friendship? And attraction is different than just imagining yourself sleeping with the other person. How our mind wanders and what we actually feel towards other people are different things.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 1 point2 points  (5 children)

Without the attraction on both ends,

Men are wired to spread their seed with as many mates as possible, women are wired to select the best possible mate. This results in many more women being within sexual desirability to a man than men to a woman. In simple words - when sexual attraction is one way, it's much more likely for it to me the man who finds the woman sexually attractive.

So what about the women who we don't find attractive at all? Good question.

These women, while not sexually desirable, are still women. They still think and act like women. As a man, to achieve optimal intimacy from friendship, I need a fellow man. You, as a woman, to achieve optimal intimacy from friendship, you need a fellow woman. Why? Because the intimacy of friendship has to do with sameness not with opposites. Therefore you need someone who's more like yourself as is explained in the OP.

A man who wishes to be "just friends" with a woman is usually doing it for an ulterior motive. It can be in the hopes of getting sex or a relationship one day, it can be to have masturbation material for later or it can be simply to bask in the glow of beauty that he feels he can never achieve.

A woman who will be just friends with a man will usually also be with an ulterior motive. The beta orbitor will provide her with plenty of things. Food, backrubs, rides, or just to listen to all her problems. She may not consciously be trying to extract things from him, but that doesn't mean she isn't doing it.

Of course, all this is generalizations. There are exception to every rule. An exception only proves the rule, it doesn't disprove it.

[–]i_have_a_semicolon -1 points0 points  (3 children)

Men are wired to spread their seed with as many mates as possible, women are wired to select the best possible mate. This results in many more women being within sexual desirability to a man than men to a woman. In simple words - when sexual attraction is one way, it's much more likely for it to me the man who finds the woman sexually attractive.

I understand this. I'm discussing a situation where there is no sexual attraction (or actionable sexual attraction) on both sides. Also not all men have this innate desire to spread their seed with as many mates as possible. I have encountered many men who are selective and also monogamous. This is a very narrow-minded definition of how men are - which is disconnected with the reality of how the men I know are.

I'm well aware that many men do have such desires which prevents those men from being friends with women, but for the men who do not have such desires, then no, such is not the case.

. As a man, to achieve optimal intimacy from friendship, I need a fellow man.

That is your perspective, however you cannot say this applies to all men... Also, there can be different levels of friendship. Its certainly possible that some men are unable to have women be their "best friend" but just because someone is not your very "best friend" doesn't mean you cannot have a friendship with them and be your open and honest self with that person. Just because you wouldn't want to discuss your Jock Itch with a woman doesn't mean you cannot be close enough with a woman to be your open and honest self with her (and viceverser)

Because the intimacy of friendship has to do with sameness not with opposites. Therefore you need someone who's more like yourself as is explained in the OP.

Assuming that men and women are completely two different species that do not share any similarities whatsoever then yes this would be true, but we are actually within the same species, so there is quite and overlap of similarities. "Men and women are different" doesnt mean "men and women are different in every way". Also, all people are different. My "best" girlfriends are all basically my polar opposites but we still get along. I have much more in common with my male friends than with any of my girlfriends, as my male friends and I bond over our similarities as human beings, where as my girlfriends and I bond over our similarities as women.

A man who wishes to be "just friends" with a woman is usually doing it for an ulterior motive. It can be in the hopes of getting sex or a relationship one day, it can be to have masturbation material for later or it can be simply to bask in the glow of beauty that he feels he can never achieve.

Right, I addressed this in my comment. In this case, there is no hope of a "Real friendship" between the women and the man. However, if this is not the case, then a "real friendship" is definitely possible.

A woman who will be just friends with a man will usually also be with an ulterior motive. The beta orbitor will provide her with plenty of things. Food, backrubs, rides, or just to listen to all her problems. She may not consciously be trying to extract things from him, but that doesn't mean she isn't doing it.

Again, this is also based on the presumption that the man is being her friend for the sole purpose of some how extracting attraction from her. In my original comment, I posed that men need to also gain something from a friendship for it to be a true friendship and women need to give something to the friendship for it to be true as well. A one-way relationship in which you described is in no shape or form a real friendship. True friendship is two sided, as both people feel fulfilled by having the other as a friend, both are willing to give to their friend as well.

Of course, all this is generalizations. There are exception to every rule. An exception only proves the rule, it doesn't disprove it.

The generalizations do not apply to the majority of friendships I have witness and have had myself. Like I said, the things you describe are not true friendships. How do exceptions to the rule "prove the rule"? Also, how can you say very confidently that the "rule" you propose is really the rule, when so many people have these exceptions? If the cases are 50/50 split, then they are not exceptions, but rather they are just as valid as the rule. Since you propose no actual data to support that the "one sided" not true friendship is in fact the "rule", then I have no reason to believe my experiences and the experiences of the other women posting in this thread are the "exceptions". Infact, I believe they are neither a rule nor an exception. I think the real rule is that everyone behaves in a selfish manner and true friendships are "rare", but in the case of true friendships, then it's no exception that men and female are capable of having them.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I'm discussing a situation where there is no sexual attraction (or actionable sexual attraction) on both sides.

Not being able to act on something doesn't mean it isn't there. In the event that it truly isn't there, there are still key differences between men and women that make true friendship highly unlikely as I explained above. Friendly and friends aren't the same thing.

Also not all men have this innate desire to spread their seed with as many mates as possible. I have encountered many men who are selective and also monogamous. This is a very narrow-minded definition of how men are - which is disconnected with the reality of how the men I know are.

Being selective and highly monogamous says absolutely nothing about sexual desire. What it does say is that these men want to have a wife and children, stability, family, commitment, love, bonding and a number of other things that you get from being monogamous and you don't get from sleeping around. There may also be religious, moral or ethical motivations for not sleeping around. (I personally never slept around. Not before marriage and not since getting married). However, none of this changes the base desire to have sex with beautiful women we encounter. Just because we behave ourselves and keep that desire within our minds, not allowing it to show at all, doesn't change the fact that the desire is there and will interfere with the type of intimacy called friendship.

Also, there can be different levels of friendship. Its certainly possible that some men are unable to have women be their "best friend" but just because someone is not your very "best friend" doesn't mean you cannot have a friendship with them and be your open and honest self with that person.

Again, friends and friendly are not one and the same.

Assuming that men and women are completely two different species that do not share any similarities whatsoever then yes this would be true, but we are actually within the same species, so there is quite and overlap of similarities. "Men and women are different" doesnt mean "men and women are different in every way"

Of course we have many similarities!

We can use a different set of words instead. Tension and comfort. Sexual attraction works on tension, friendship works on comfort. Tension and comfort are opposites, they can't live together. When you have an underlying tension, it's almost impossible to have that serene comfort.

Again, this is also based on the presumption that the man is being her friend for the sole purpose of some how extracting attraction from her.

I brought that as one of many possibilities. It was in no way the foundation of my logic. I was pretty clear about that. These things are often subconscious.

I posed that men need to also gain something from a friendship for it to be a true friendship and women need to give something to the friendship for it to be true as well. A one-way relationship in which you described is in no shape or form a real friendship. True friendship is two sided, as both people feel fulfilled by having the other as a friend, both are willing to give to their friend as well.

And because of the issues I raised, true friendship is highly unlikely. Yes, many men endure one way friendships for way longer than they should. TRP wasn't conceived by men who were happily married, it was conceived by men who got burned again and again until they began to analyze what results followed what actions.

[–]i_have_a_semicolon 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Then how do I have male friends at work ? We are not just friendly with each other. We are not best friends. But I dont have best friends. I have my boyfriend and my second closest relationships outside of my family are my work friends. My male coworker is in his 40s with 2 kids and a wife who he loves. He has told me that I'm his friend. He has also never even slightly suggested anything more than a friendship with him. I've known him for 4 years. Maybe somewhere in the back of his head he's imagined something, but he's probably covered that up (and also seen too much of my negative side :P ) to act on it. Also being half his age probably helps. Yeah, we can talk for like an hour about all kinds of bullshit. He's one of my closest friends, and yet he's male.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

its weird how because THEY can;t be friends with the opposite sex, it must mean everyone else is the same! Can anyone say projection?

Its shocking, I'm being told here that i secretly want to bang my female friends, and have always wanted to and never wanted genuine friendship from them? That's sickening.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

A man who wishes to be "just friends" with a woman is usually doing it for an ulterior motive. It can be in the hopes of getting sex or a relationship one day, it can be to have masturbation material for later or it can be simply to bask in the glow of beauty that he feels he can never achieve.

PEOPLE can be dishonest about their intentions. Remove your inherent prejudices.

[–]i_have_a_semicolon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Also, that's in no way a run on sentence. I did have objections clearly stated point by point. There are periods between my sentences to indicate each sentence is a new sentence. I could put some paragraph breaks in there, but there's really only a few points I'm trying to make. It's not a very long paragraph

Edit : I added 2 paragraph breaks to help

[–]JaneeCathartica 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Wow i guess that's how my boyfriends friends manage to seem so friendly and distant at the same time.

[–]linsann0310 7 points8 points  (5 children)

I think in general your right. But as a woman who's best friend was a guy I have to say for us it worked and I'm not talking friendly I'm talking bff. Now with that said I'm not really a typical girl growing up I was more a hard core tomboy and even today I'd say I lean that way still. Now you may be thinking oh he's a beta but no he was very very alpha! And I was his sounding board for all the crazy stuff he did! Like I'm talking 3am phone calls of hey I met this girl and want to bang her but she still lives at home and her parents are in the next room. Me. Umm maybe take her to your place? Ok I'm just going to do it click! 6am Hey so I just got chased out of her house you want to get breakfast? The funny part is he is how I met my husband they were friends to he even was the best man at our wedding. Over all tho I would say he was like my brother and that's still how I regard him.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 6 points7 points  (4 children)

But as a woman who's best friend was a guy I have to say for us it worked

That's because he behaved with respect towards you. He didn't break the boundaries of the 'friendship'. That doesn't mean that he never masturbate to you, it doesn't mean he never saw you sexually, it doesn't mean he never struggled to keep these boundaries in place.

Even if he never had any attraction to you whatsoever at any time, it would still be the exception to the rule just like homosexuality is the exception to the rule. The overwhelming majority of the human population is attracted to the opposite sex, but that doesn't mean that every single human being on the planet fits that mold. There is a small percentage of people who are attracted to the same sex. (I don't know exactly what percentage. Last I checked it was 1 point something).

[–]linsann0310 0 points1 point  (3 children)

We were friends from a young age and when we got older we did talk once about dating but didn't because he said he was happy with what we had I was too so we just stayed best friends. Plus the love I have for him was never like what I have for my husband it was always more like what I have for my bro when meeting his friends that I didn't know he always introduced me as his sister. But my point was I agree for the most part and that we are the exception.

[–]i_have_a_semicolon 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I feel like everyone has this exception, thou. Everyone I know who is female does have male friends. I have male friends. When does the exception stop being the exception and become the rule? When everyone has an exceptional case.

[–]Zemasrose 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Everyone does not have this exception and most that would say they do are lying to themselves.

[–]i_have_a_semicolon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's just weird to me is all. Then again, I don't believe people really have close friends. They have people they are loyal to. Friends can disappoint us from time to time. I've just never met anyone in real life who only has friends in the same gender. I mean, sure maybe every single person I know has either some friends of both sex , a really close friend of either sex, or very few close friends. True friendship doesn't exist the way people think. I find my true best friend is my boyfriend, but yeah. And I can be my worst self with him, too. The entire post is like, how can that be the "rule" , if its so far from a reality I know and can see?

[–]Rommel0502 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I have to say there is some teeth to this. Thinking back on all of my close female friends, either I ended up sleeping with them, or our friendship ended because I wouldn't.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

:)

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hasn't been a problem for me. One of my best friends is a married man and I'm also friends with his wife. He and I were friends when we were both single (before he married, and before I got into my LTR). We still get coffee alone on occasion to catch up and message each other on Facebook. Neither my boyfriend nor his wife have any concerns.

When we were both single, we were never sexually attracted to each other. He isn't an orbiter and could have made advances on me then if he felt it. In fact, we both said to each other than we don't have any sexual feelings for the other.

Yes, it can happen. I grew up watching my mom have male friends because she was involved in town politics and environmental conservation, two masculine areas. My dad never expressed any jealousy or concern.

I don't buy into this myth at all.

[–]throwawayaccoun7s 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Based on my own experience, I don't think men and women can be purely platonic friends.

For most of my life, I have had multiple close male friends. I knew most (if not all) of them liked me, and I liked them, but I never acted on my attraction, so I never dated any of them. I only dated one of them, and it's extremely hard to remain friends with an ex until you have gotten completely over them.

The only exception to this is my bisexual, male friend. I'll admit, I was infatuated with him at one point, but that quickly faded. He was too feminine for my tastes, but he was infatuated with me as well. I ended up crushing on a tall, blonde boy who showed no interest in me whatsoever. We're great, platonic friends now that we've gotten over each other, but we did have an interest for each other at one point.

In my eyes, the only way men and women can be friends is if they're gay, had gotten over past interest, and/or if they don't really interact that much. Again, this is from my own experience.

[–]kaane 0 points1 point  (2 children)

A great explanation on why the nice guys don't get action at all. Well written.

To back this up, I remember watching an interview of Olivia Munn. She says that there is always some kind of sexual tension between her male friends and her. The polarity is what makes the attraction in the first place. So the more feminine the woman, and the more masculine the man, makes a greater tension hence, attraction.

While a woman won't say no to an orbiter, she gets very little from him because, well she has female friends who understand her more deeper than an orbiter. Even he has no balls, he can't be a woman either. On the other hand, the orbiter gets almost nothing in exchange for his long hours of service to said woman. So this is a loose-loose situation for both parties.

I had many woman friends until recently. Armed with tRP knowledge, and applying that to my life, I started to realise that spending all those hours just sitting and listening to them about their ever changing emotional swings brings nothing to my life. Now, don't think that I am a woman hater. It is the exact opposite, I love and respect women. But in a heterosexual way..

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

she gets very little from him

She gets plenty from him. She gets attention, validation, hours of service and free stuff. That's plenty.

He gets little to nothing in return which is why he will be the one to eventually implode or explode as a result of this "friendship".

[–]i_have_a_semicolon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

One, you said women get nothing from orbiters but men will give up hours of their precious time so service her, doesn't that seem contradictory?

Two, of you're just listening to women rant on their periods and never rant to them yourself , than yeah you're doing the friendship thing wrong. I'd be more than happy to lend my ear and any ways I can help my friends regardless of their sex. If my friends get emotional, I can especially help them because I have also experienced high emotional states. If you're a Stoic, don't listen to the girl. Like you said. Does neither of you good, you doing that won't magically make her attracted to you.

[–]diglyd 0 points1 point  (0 children)

One thing that isn't discussed/listed by the OP is the concept of "utility". For many women the male friend relationship comes with the bonus of male utility, be it some poor shmuck who will instantly jump at the chance to buy her dinner when the girl has to eat, to the guy who will gladly fix her leaking roof or change the oil in her car, fix her broken toilet, or drive her around town when she is broke, or be that emotional tampon and shoulder to cry on after a-hole Chad got in a argument with her becaue she was "needy" smacked her around a bit and slept with her best friend.

Just becaue he isn't attractive doesn't mean he isn't useful. This is the other reason why women think that the male-female friendship can work because it serves their needs.

All these super helpful guys are a webwork of support, and utility. She needs her computer fixed/cleaned of viruses... check, she can call Jim the IT friend who swoons over her anytime he comes over to update her pc at work. She need something heavy moved, well there Steve who will gladly come over because he thinks he might have a shot, with his truck and probably move her entire apartment. She's hungry and can't buy groceries?, not problem, she can call Sam who will buy her dinner before she meets up with Brad for drinks afterwards.

Just friends is possible in a woman's mind because she wants what the man can provide without necessarily him (his utility), it provides her with resources that she would otherwise not have access to without having to pay for them in a traditional sense (she doesn't have to spend her money or have sex). It's calculated whether its conscious or not. Its a support structure so she doesn't have to actually do anything out of her comfort zone when a resource to do this for her is available and willing. She can put up with the undersideable guy's presence long enough to get A, or B done. A few smiles, thank you's, close contact/proximity, lunch, or just looking good is a small price to pay compared to calling a pro plumber who charges $150 an hour or a moving company.

[–]Red_Pill_Raskol 0 points1 point  (3 children)

There is at least another fringe case exception. I am very good friends with my cousin's ex girlfriend. She also rode the CC extremely hard. Both of those portions of her history are more than enough reason for me never to be interested in her sexually, although assuming a blank slate she's attractive enough.

Really relationships boil down to sexual and non-sexual. Even relationships with some mild sexual tension that can never get there I think can form friendships.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 6 points7 points  (2 children)

fringe case exception.

Let me break down what you just wrote.

  • She's attractive.
  • She rode the cc hard
  • She therefore isn't wife material
  • And may carry STD's

She's still attractive though. You still have sexual desire for her, it's just that this desire gets shut down by the negatives that come a long result of riding the cc very hard. It's not to say that attraction isn't there at all. It is there, it just gets shut down by your internal defense system that tries to keep you away from trouble.

[–]i_have_a_semicolon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You act like this is so one-sided. You act like women never look at their male friends and think "well he's a good looking guy..."

[–]Red_Pill_Raskol -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Goes without saying that she's not wife material. The point is that in the vacuum that those particular conditions formed I was able to make a very nice friendship with this particular individual. She's fun to discuss RP truths with.

Women and men can't be true friends is a good rule for the reasons explained by you and others in this thread, but I think there's a good case for arguing that at the end of the day it is sex that is the defining determiner of what kind of relationship it is.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I completely disagree with you. i have plenty of female friends I have no interest in beyond friendship and have never had an interest in sleeping with. Because they're my friends! Shocking isn't it?

Friends and potential partners are completely separate in my mind, and I'm sure they can be for other people as well. it's not sucha black and white situation.

[–]Willow-girl 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm bi; am I allowed to have friends at all? lol

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (2 children)

I use levels of friendship. I have level 1 & 2 male friends, but levels 3 & 4 are reserved for females.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

As I said in the post - friends and friendly aren't the same thing.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I know, I read the post.