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DISCUSSIONThe Red Pill made me depressed. What did it do to you? Share your experience! (self.RedPillWomen)

submitted by PowerHuffGirl

Hello fellow RPWomen. I wish you the best for 2015.

There was a thread that said that the RP is much tougher to swallow for women, but it was pretty emotionless and impersonal, so I wasn’t satisfied. That's why I’m making a new thread where I’d like you to share your experience with the The Red Pill:

1. What were you like pre-red pill?

2. How did you discover the red pill?

3. What has it taught you? How has it affected you negatively and positively?

In this other thread I talked about, /u/blueWidow raised an interesting question that was not answered by anyone. I’d like that to be addressed here:

4. How did you manage to come to terms with the harsh red pill truths without becoming jaded?

The sidebar says that, for men, taking the red pill is like a grieving process::

  1. Denial

  2. Anger

  3. Bargaining

  4. Depression

  5. Acceptance

I think it’s the same for women. I’m going through that process right now and I’m currently stuck at stage 4. And a little bit of 2.

I think that if I had found a testimony that described my experience on the internet, it would have helped me understand myself better and feel less alone. I'm writing this for people who need the help I needed and didn't find.

Disclaimer: When I say "women/men are like this", I speak about the vast majority, I understand that there are exceptions to the generalizations that I make.

Here's my experience:

I’m a low SMV female. I'm physically a 3/10. Because of bad genes, not because I let myself go.

I couldn’t get attention by looking nice, so I tried to work on my personality to be more attractive, but I don't have much going for me, so that didn’t work out well either. I spent most of my life as the awkward kid who struggled to make and keep friends, let alone boyfriends.

My only consolation back then was my hope that I would meet a guy who would love me despite my looks one day. I was an avid reader of feminist literature that said that behavioral sex differences are not innate, men like the same traits in women that women like in men, etc. and these ideas gave me hope that I could maybe still find a good partner.

But I also couldn’t help doubting that feminists (=females) were a reliable source about male preferences. So I searched the internet for male opinions and that's how I found the manosphere. It was anti-feministic so I found it very uncomfortable to read, but I couldn't turn a blind eye to the fact that the sexual strategies it promoted were effective. I spent days reading RP theory and I was surprised to discover what men were really like, not what mainstream culture said that they should be. I suspected that men and women were attracted to slightly different things, but I didn't expect that the differences were that big.

It turned out that women most importantly valued strong, confident, intelligent, driven leaders who made them feel safe and loved, as I already knew.

But men most importantly valued young, fertile, chaste, deferential, physically beautiful women who nurtured them and satisfied them sexually.

This sucked. I wished that this wasn’t reality, but it was and I was stuck in it and it sucked.

Why did I hate that men are attracted to the things they’re attracted to?

Youth & fertility & beauty: These features are so damn transient. We lose those no matter what we do. It's frustrating that our SMV depends on things we have almost no control over.

Fashion, dieting and exercise can help, but when you’re ugly, these things don’t make you beautiful, just maybe decent. I can pray to be saved by wife goggles, but still... so damn out of my control.

Chastity: This must suck for high libido women, but it was pretty easy to accept for me, because my sex drive is so low that I have close to zero interest in casual hookups anyway.

Sexual satisfaction: The problem is, the low sex drive would be a serious issue in a LTR. I knew that men had a higher drive, but not to the extent that RP taught me. RP made me aware of the fact that sex is a physical urge to men, they must have it often (either with a partner or alone). As a woman, arousal isn't as easy to stir, so I realized that I wouldn't be able to keep a man satisfied without regularly forcing myself to have sex that I’m not in the mood for just for him.

I found the idea of forcing myself to have sex like it's a chore so unromantic it was repugnant. That's not what mainstream culture says that married life will be like. Mainstream culture says that sex needs to be a special expression of love that's enjoyable for both partners, so if she's not in the mood, it's not happening and he should just respect that lest he objectifies her. The fact that RP contradicted this rubbed me the wrong way because RP desacralized sex.

I felt even more pressure after RP taught me that men need sex to feel close to their mate and not having it makes them feel painfully undesirable and not loved. I would feel loved and desirable just with cuddling, lots of hanging out together and occasional sex. It was hard for me to believe that this wasn't enough validation for men.

RP also taught me that sexual monogamy was a great struggle for a man. Even when in love with one woman, he fights the urge to have sex with many different women. And even when he's 50, his sexual preference remains set on the looks of 18 year old girls, so he can lose desire for his wife that he loves because she changed so much with age that she's too far from his natural standard. Mainstream culture says that he should desire the person he loves even after 40 years of being together, but apparently men just aren't wired that way.

I think that his personality would make him desirable to me even after he lost his looks with age and I don't have this need for sexual variety at all. The fact that my man would never be able to reciprocate such exclusive and long-term desire for me was another painful slap in the face of my romantic ideals.

Nurturing: That means being sweet, playful, receptive, sensitive, supportive.

I hated this because it’s a trait that is so easy to have.

Women's standards for a mate push men to be as powerful as they can be, but men's standards for a mate don't. They are low standards in comparison, which means that high SMV men have a myriad of high SMV women as options.

This RP truth made me feel insecure about my ability to keep a man, knowing that my high SMV man could very easily replace me with one of the many other women who fit his low standards. So much for feeling special.

Deferential: This one is about the Captain/First Mate dynamic that is advocated on here.

My problem with this was that I had trouble accepting the RP idea that women are naturally more attracted to nurturing roles while men are naturally more driven to go outside and conquer the world, as opposed to the feminist misconception that women and men are naturally the same in that regard. It explained why men have invented and built so much more. This truth was painful to accept because it makes me feel inferior to men.

As First Mates, we assume the supportive role while men are being CEOs, doctors, engineers, etc. And society values men for their achievements because only a limited number of people can do what they do. The male role is prestigious and elitist, whereas nobody stands in awe before the woman who does the child-rearing and the housework behind the curtains. Most people can do what she does, so society doesn't value her work. Value positively correlates with rarity. This led to the conclusion that, to society, feminine traits are inferior to masculine traits. (“value to society” =“societal value” from now on.)

As a woman, I hated this conclusion. Being of inferior societal value just felt humiliating and demoralizing.

The RP fact that men prefer feminine (=nurturing) women only added to this feeling of humiliation. It meant that women’s sexually valuable personality traits are traits that have inferior societal value than men’s sexually valuable personality traits. Feminism didn't raise me to be okay with that fact. It raised me to find the male preference for societally inferior traits in their mates demeaning, so that’s how I felt. Offended, degraded.

And to make things worse, it turned out that even I preferred mates that I'm inferior to. I was raised to want an equal relationship, but my own body betrayed me by responding more favorably to dominant, powerful men than to betas, so feelings of embarrassment and self-depreciation ensued.

When I encountered one of those chauvinist man-trolls on the internet who like to rub it into women's faces that they have superior societal value and they have it better because they're men, it got under my skin, but there was nothing I could say back because it was all true. It made me frustrated and jealous.

Yes, I began wishing that I was a man.

Because high SMV men have high societal and sexual market value and they hit the wall when they’re, what, 45?

Because even low SMV men don't have it so bad compared to low SMV women. They can work on their SMV whereas us, ugly girls, better luck out and find a male freak of nature who does not care about looks or we’re screwed.

Because feminism said that we “need men like fish need bicycles”, but RP taught me that it's actually men who don't need us as much as we need them. It's like nature designed men to be the self-sufficient high achievers and we’re the dependent sidekicks who they keep around just because we give them sex, babies, compliments to make them feel like goddamn superman and back rubs when they need a break from being awesome. They don't need romance to feel happy/complete in life, they only need sex that bad. And their SMV lasts longer than ours, so they have the power to leave us for a younger, higher SMV woman after 15 years of marriage. They won’t necessarily do it, but they can and we can’t. We're at their mercy.

What woman wants to hear that?

It’s not just RP's portrayal of men that I found strongly repulsive, women's portrayal was worse: flat out incapable of romantically loving an equal or inferior man, naturally more inclined to not be introspective, to be irrational, disloyal, selfish, fickle, to "swing branches" and to perform annoying shit-tests. RP men made us sound like unruly children that they have to put up with and keep in check with “Frame”. I had the emotional impulse to reject that unflattering portrayal, but I also knew that I had to accept that that’s reality. RP men have more experience with dating women than I have and they all agree on these things, so I assume that what they say about women's bad attitude in relationships is true, even though I don’t personally observe it.

Having said all this, I think I can safely conclude that pride/feeling humiliated is the biggest hurdle to swallowing the RP as a woman from a feminist culture. It might be difficult for you to sympathize with feminists, but their struggle is real (no pun intended). For some of them, denying gender essentialism and pushing girls to be more masculine is just a way to protect their self-esteem by proving that women have as much societal value as men. Their denial of reality has the potential to be annoying, but I can only feel compassion for them because I can relate so well.

I’m jaded. I'm in my late teens, but I already feel like I don't have much to look forward to.

I used to swoon over romance movies and dream of Everlasting Love. To me, love was this wonderful, transcendental, erotic power that connected two Soulmates and made their lives complete forever. Then I swallowed the RP and love was demoted to simple economics – callous talk about sexual markets, plates, orbiters, walls and primitive evolutionary instincts. The magic was gone.

And I know that I need to stop pity-partying and get the F over myself, but I can't get over it. I hate this reality. I hate the innate male/female difference. I'm stuck in stage 4. And a little bit of 2.

When I realized that I was wrong to put love on a pedestal, I considered giving up on LTRs altogether and being a WGTOW, but I doubt that I can be fulfilled in life just thanks to friendships and personal achievements, like a man can. I'm scared that if I do this, I’ll end up as a lonely, regretful old cat lady.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKgfjiIvalk

Not very appealing, amirite?

I'll see what the future holds...

TL;DR your testimony: RP killed some of my romantic beliefs when it taught me how different men's sexuality was and how much less they crave love relationships with women than women do with them. It also taught me that male standards for a good mate are transient and relatively easy to meet. Easy standards means that men's mates are more easily replaceable and transient means that women's attractive power has an expiration date. Therefore I, as an ugly woman, think that my options are limited to:

1) Being with a high SMV man who will cheat/dump me for another female who is younger, prettier and less frigid at some point.

2) Settling for a secure relationship with a low SMV man that nobody wants and never having to worry about competition, but not being happy in that relationship.

3) Being insanely lucky and finding a man who will make me happy (and vice-versa) and find something special to love about me despite that I have so little to offer.

RP also taught me that sex differences are innate, so now I think that women are less valuable than men to society, because feminine traits are less "societally" valuable than masculine traits. It makes me wish I was a man. It feels humiliating and depressing for me to have low SMV and low societal value.

RP made me realize that my idea of love was an unrealistic fantasy. Laying bare all the rules and inner workings of the feeling stripped love of its magic and painted such a repulsive image of it that I became jaded. Now I consider being a WGTOW, but I doubt that this lifestyle will make me happy either. I don't know what I'll do.

This was my emotional journey. I'd like to read about yours too. Maybe venting on here will make swallowing the RP easier for you, like it does for me, so feel free to be verbose.

Feel also free to comment on/criticize my ideas, but with tact please, because I meant no offense, just honesty. I've read texts in the past about the pain of swallowing the RP for women, but most had an aggressive undertone that said "You don’t like it, huh? Well, deal with it, idgaf about your feeeels" and that's more irritating than helpful. I think that tact, togetherness and compassion is much more conductive to emotionally accepting the bitter red pill, which is what this thread is about.

Thank you for reading. Especially if you read everything.

Updates: http://www.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/2s300i/the_red_pill_made_me_depressed_what_did_it_do_to/cnnj43l?context=3


[–]Sesa_Refum 19 points20 points  (0 children)

3/10? Do you have some sort of facial/bone deformities or diseases?

Consider getting good with makeup, I seen some girls go from 4/10 to 8-9/10 with that sorcery.

[–]StingrayVC 32 points33 points  (8 children)

You really need to change where you are coming from with a lot of these things.

  1. I agree with yungwarthog. If you are in shape, you are likely more than a 3. Learn to wear makeup, wear flattering clothes and how to carry yourself. The last, especially, is huge.

  2. Your libido. Maybe it is low or maybe you just haven't had the chance to try it on for size yet? Seriously, even if it is low, if you're with a man whom turns you on, even when your not in the mood when he is, if you're receptive it doesn't take long to get in the mood. You said forcing yourself to have sex is repugnant. In so many of these things you just need to change how you are looking at them. It's not forcing yourself. It's more like, I am not in the mood right now, but I get to have sex anyway! Whoo hoo! I am not a high libido woman.

  3. You worry about society way too much. No, society today does not value a woman who is more nurturing towards her man. Who cares. Many men do value this highly. Stop worry about what society wants of you and worry more about what you want and what a man whom you wish to attract might want. You feel inferior because your whole life you have valued men's roles higher because feminism taught you to. Time to learn to value the feminine for yourself, society be damned.

  4. Yes, men do not need us like we need them. But most men would love to be with a woman who truly respects them and helps them in their life. If you think women like this are easy to find, you are dead wrong. Men might be attracted to younger and tighter, but they will keep a woman around who is respectful, loyal, and whom truly loves her man.

  5. Love being romance and Disney is bunk. It's not that and that stuff only lasts for a very short time. I think it was Homo_homini_Lupus who said that love is what you do when this feeling passes. Because it will. Sure, there are moments of it from time to time, but love is what you do in the meantime. Love is willing the good of the other (This is written in a decidedly Christian manner. If you're not Christian read it anyway and leave that part out. It is still relevant). Or put simply, it is what you do. It is so much more than what you are describing and so much more important.

  6. Women are inferior to men in the parameters you outlined. But those are not the only parameters. There are many that we are superior to men in. Nurturing. Mothering. Deferring. You value those other parameters yourself and are failing to see women's strengths. Learn to value what you are good at and forget competing with men at what they are good at.

My journey? I went through much the same until I realized that I was comparing myself to men and competing within their parameters. I am a woman. What are my own parameters that I can improve? The fact that what you think of as society doesn't value these things is moot. I don't care because my husband and family value these things very highly.

[–]ArchwingerTRP Vanguard 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Yes, men do not need us like we need them. But most men would love to be with a woman who truly respects them and helps them in their life. If you think women like this are easy to find, you are dead wrong. Men might be attracted to younger and tighter, but they will keep a woman around who is respectful, loyal, and whom truly loves her man.

This is absolutely, 100 percent key. It's essential.

Genuine respect and genuine gratitude are sexier than boobs.

You can be ugly as sin, and that alone sets you apart from 90 percent of the stupid bitches in the world.

[–]ColdEiric 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Genuine respect and genuine gratitude are sexier than boobs.

Boobs get old. Do you girls think that genuine respect and genuine gratitude ever get old?

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Yes, men do not need us like we need them. But most men would love to be with a woman who truly respects them and helps them in their life. If you think women like this are easy to find, you are dead wrong. Men might be attracted to younger and tighter, but they will keep a woman around who is respectful, loyal, and whom truly loves her man.

Ding! My wife is my wife because she continually put in the effort to make my life better.

[–]StingrayVC 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you very much!

[–]Vornnash 14 points15 points  (2 children)

She is measuring everything from an economic perspective, which is wrong. Women are superior in value to men overall. They are the engine that produces the next generation and supports the current one, which is invaluable as far as I'm concerned, but it's not something that you can put a dollar figure on and reward accordingly.

If half the male population dies in a war in the next few years society can still survive such a calamity. But if half the female population dies it's a much more serious problem. That's why men are more expendable overall, they always have been and always will. Men are therefore naturally more risk taking and women more risk adverse, because of natural selection. So if a ship like the Titanic is sinking, what is the rational choice? Get the women and children off first. A man sacrificing his life for the woman he loves is the best love story ever, because it reflects reality and our natures.

[–][deleted]  (2 children)

[deleted]

[–]PowerHuffGirl[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Even the ugliest woman is saved on a sinking ship, before the most handsome man.

I'm a little confused by this. Nowadays, the person who gets saved on a sinking ship is the person who gets in the life boat first, no matter his or her sex. Only children are saved before everyone else. People no longer follow the "Women (and children) first" rule, do they?

The draft is also only existent on paper. If it were to be practically enforced again, in this day and age, people would most likely protest against it, don't you think?

Women are only inherently more valuable if they're fertile and the population is in danger of extinction, unlike in today's age of overpopulation. Maybe my experience as a woman makes me blind to male struggles, but I don't see how the mentality that males are disposable is expressed in this day and age (although I see the female depreciation very clearly).

Even the ugliest women can get affection from a man, it might not be a handsome stud.

Can't the same be said about the ugliest men?

Don't they end up with all the ugly women with no other options?

Or is it common for these women to become WGTOWs?

If men are really as visual as people make them out to be, I have a hard time believing in their ability to find an ugly woman sexually attractive. Doesn't the affection that an ugly woman get from low quality males come less from a place of genuine sexual attraction towards her and more from a place of desperation to quench his high sex drive (that women don't have)?

To me, it seems like ugly pleasant women to men are like nice beta men to women in relationships. There's barely any sexual attraction, but they care for each other as human beings.

If most men did not get to reproduce in the past, is it not because of a more accepting stance towards polygamy (20/80) and men dying more in wars/dangerous jobs than because of women choosing WGTOWism over being with an ugly male?

But not all men can say the same thing. The ugliest man with nothing to offer won't get so much as a second glance from a lady.

How is the same not true for a lady with nothing to offer?

In my experience, nobody wants you if you have nothing to offer. I don't get much attention, even from low quality males.

If that man is ugly, but has something to offer personality-wise, he will have an easier time finding a partner who is genuinely sexually attracted to him than a woman in the same situation, won't he?

It's true that men need to work harder in certain areas that women don't have to worry about as much in order to be a high quality partner than women do, which is stressful and tiring. Your testimony is a good illustration of that and I feel real sympathy for your situation. Thank you.

If you live your life being jealous of men, you're going to waste a lot of time.

You're right.

[–]TempestTcup 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Just go get a good man; he doesn't have to be the 1% of men. There are millions of men out there - go to where they hang out doing their man things: cars, guns, boats, airplanes, etc. Go get one, find someone you can look up to who would make good decisions and give you a good life. Then do anything you can to hang onto him. Give him a good life too.

[–]nomnompuffs 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Hi,

I was pretty touched by this post, and I always wondered how the Redpill felt for women; I didn't imagine there was rejection and a cycle like this for women, because in my mind, it seemed very straightforward for women: be deferential, well-behaved and keep yourself in shape. Thanks for this insight. With regards to the post, everything was spot on, but I want to comment on one or two things:

I used to swoon over romance movies and dream of Everlasting Love. To me, love was this wonderful, transcendental, erotic power that connected two Soulmates and made their lives complete forever. Then I swallowed the RP and love was demoted to simple economics – callous talk about sexual markets, plates, orbiters, walls and primitive evolutionary instincts. The magic was gone.

You can still swoon over relationships; but you'll now swoon over what actually arouses you, and that will just be a change -- the magic isn't gone; it'll actually increase. Reality's version of romance with a dominant male is white hot. I empathize with your lack of physical attractiveness and I won't comment on it.

[–]Lyrad1002 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Despite what men try to play off, life for them is not all super awesome. Life for most men is crap. All those death, suicide, and mental illness stats mean something.

Also, nothing is stopping you from going out and doing something great as a woman. It's not like its the 1800s. Look at all the accomplished women out there right now.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

You seem sincere and in need of guidance, so I'll take a shot at this, even though I'm a relatively new commenter.

  1. Pre red pill, I was happier, more oblivious to the world around me, and more entitled.

  2. A link from another manosphere site.

  3. I've become less trusting, and also more aware of how I measure up (or don't) to others. My beliefs and opinions have crystallized, I take my work and my relationships more seriously, and as a result I've improved my relationships with friends and family, and have just entered into a relationship with a wonderful man after coming out of a four year WGTOW phase.

  4. It's never too late to take up new interests. Having a concept of yourself as an individual outside of the sexual marketplace is key. Think about what you want from other people, and what they might want from you. It sucks to be out in the meat market, but everyone must compromise themselves in one way or another in order to ensure the continuation of the species. Think about how hard men have it, trying to gain social and financial status in order to attract a mate and be able to provide for a family. Being human is a guarantee that you will experience suffering within your lifespan.

[–]yungwarthog 34 points35 points  (24 children)

I don't usually comment, but 3/10's who are actually unable to improve their appearance are pretty rare. As in, I've probably met one or two my entire life.

If you're in good shape physically, even if your face/features aren't that attractive, many men will be attracted simply because your body is nice. Doesn't sound inspiring, but it's totally within your control at least.

[–]Droi 23 points24 points  (1 child)

Agreed.

OP - makeup videos, a fresh hair style, a better fitting wardrobe, and a whole lot of gym work are guaranteed to make you more attractive than you are now. It is almost impossible that you are at your self-improvement limit, it is more likely that you cannot improve with what you know anymore. Especially considering you are so young. Hell, in an extreme case, a nose/boob job can make a huge difference.

Remember you have a huge advantage. You know so much more than women who haven't taken the red pill. You will face so much less disappointment and reality crashes throughout your life after realizing these things at such a young age.

[–]Vornnash 12 points13 points  (0 children)

She will also be able to navigate any marriage better than the average woman, because she knows what it takes to keep a man happy and loving her. Where there's life and the capacity to learn there's hope.

[–][deleted] 22 points23 points  (20 children)

I'm not calling you out specifically, but I think all these posts about how she should just change her appearance are missing the point a little bit.

She is angry that women are valued for something so superficial as appearance, when men get to be admired for their strong character and personal achievements. Everything that women are admired for is relatively easy to accomplish, so as a result women aren't granted the level of respect given to men.

[–]PowerHuffGirl[S] 7 points8 points  (15 children)

I'm not calling you out specifically, but I think all these posts about how she should just change her appearance are missing the point a little bit.

She is angry that women are valued for something so superficial as appearance, when men get to be admired for their strong character and personal achievements. Everything that women are admired for is relatively easy to accomplish, so as a result women aren't granted the level of respect given to men.

This.

Like you said, they're not completely missing the point. I’m very thankful for all the advice everyone has given me about my looks. I already feel a little bit less hopeless about my ability to improve them. But I’m still not able to feel very enthusiastic about that… and the reason is exactly this.

I could be a beauty queen and I would still feel sad because I know that all the men who would approach me wouldn’t have given me a second glance if it wasn’t for something as simple and superficial as the appearance of the body my mind just happens to reside in. "Okay, it's pretty, but it's still just flesh and bones. What I've accomplished is more than that, please pay attention to that too!" I would want to say.

And mainstream culture pushes the idea that “What really matters is what’s on the inside, those who care about looks are contemptibly shallow” so much, it’s very difficult to accept now that looks actually matter a lot to men and I shouldn’t find that contemptible anymore.

The RP forces you to go against years of very ingrained cultural programming and it’s so dispiriting and draining…

But thank you. I appreciate the advice that you all give to help me get over it.

And even if you have no advice at all, I appreciate that you just share your experience anyway.

[–]StingrayVC 9 points10 points  (7 children)

Look, don't you think men get depressed over the fact that more women will pay attention to them for driving a hot car, or having a high status job, or their house, or their bank account?

Women can be just as superficial in what we want, you are just so caught up in you right now that you can't see the other side of this.

[–]PowerHuffGirl[S] 9 points10 points  (6 children)

Oh I'm aware that there's another side to this... It's just that money and other material possessions are the result of hard work usually. Harder work than looking pretty, most of the time. They are earned, so they are achievements that inspire respect from women in a way that good looks don't from men. That's why it feels less demeaning.

If a man just inherited all his fancy possessions without having to achieve anything for it and women are just attracted to his possessions without respecting him, then I get how frustrating that can be for him.

I'm aware that there's a great disconnect between what I rationally think and the way things affect me emotionally sometimes... I need to adjust to this new worldview and unlearn the socially conditioned emotional responses, I guess.

[–]StingrayVC 7 points8 points  (3 children)

But do you really think that women stop and think, oh he got that really nice car from his hard work and dedication and find that hot or do you think they see a nice car and jump to hot?

You are way over thinking this and this is what is keeping you stuck.

EDIT: What's more you are still stuck on what you find value in and what men find value in. Men value the work women put into themselves to make themselves look good, especially in a LTR. You still don't. This might sound too harsh for you, but it needs to be said. You need to stop with the "yeah buts" and start accepting reality. It's not going to change. The sooner you stop with the "yeah buts" the easier this acceptance with be.

[–]PowerHuffGirl[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Okay, I'll think about this. Thank you for your patience.

[–]StingrayVC 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Here's something else to consider. Yes, men notice looks first. But I assume you are looking for more than a ONS. Looks will get you a ONS but it is respect, loyalty, and nurturing that will get you a good marriage/LTR. Those things are NOT easy and do take a lot of hard work and are highly valued. They are also in incredibly short supply in women today.

[–]TempestTcup 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Looking good is also the result of hard work. If you are a 3 then you aren't working hard at it. You think that since you don't care if you look good or not, then men shouldn't care whether you look good or not. It doesn't work that way. The only men who won't care what you look like are men who don't care what they look like. But you don't want a fat slob of a man do you? You obviously want men who are completely out of your league or you wouldn't be bellyaching about it.

If you want a better man then be a better woman.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

http://d3imyo1kk0rcam.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/9150799e4ce5448f29a0dc4fd68ddba0826006615.jpg

/u/PowerHuffGirl

Look at this photo. DAYYYUUUMMMMMMM. We're going to assume that the girl has pretty good genetics. Now notice how you can't see if the girls face is pretty or not? Yet you can tell she puts in at least the minimum amount of effort to have this nice ass. This ass takes squats and deadlifts. This ass takes a decent, stable diet to maintain. again, yes, genetics, but this is not reserved for 9/10 girls.

[–][deleted]  (2 children)

[deleted]

    [–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

    TRP has identified this as "Female solipsism". Women form their beliefs about mating and dating utterly without regard to what men say

    [–]PowerHuffGirl[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I think a big part of it is due to wishful thinking on women's part. And also because some men say the politically correct thing instead of the truth when it comes to what they like the most about their ideal mate.

    Some men help keeping the misconception alive.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6M5C-oKw9k

    [–]TempestTcup 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    I could be a beauty queen and I would still feel sad because I know that all the men who would approach me wouldn’t have given me a second glance if it wasn’t for something as simple and superficial as the appearance of the body my mind just happens to reside in. "Okay, it's pretty, but it's still just flesh and bones. What I've accomplished is more than that, please pay attention to that too!" I would want to say.

    Holy cow, get over it. It's the way it is, and no amount of "sadness" is going to change that. If this is your biggest problem in the world, then you are pretty damn lucky.

    Waaaaaa, life isn't fair!!!!

    [–]randomenfp 1 point2 points  (2 children)

    Isn't that pretty much why there's feminism? Because there are woman who want to be admired for their accomplishments and integrity? And if that were acceptable, it would probably blur the lines of the female and male roles. Which not a lot of people would be comfortable with. It would be threatening in a way I guess.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–]randomenfp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      I agree.. I wasn't arguing against that.

      [–]TempestTcup 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      women are valued for something so superficial as appearance, when men get to be admired for their strong character and personal achievements.

      In romance. On the job things are different, but as far as love goes, no man is going to be attracted to her career more than her looks and personality. No man will say, "She's hideous and a shrew, but damn her job is sexy!"

      [–]rpkarma 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      That's all true. But it's also reality and not something that can be changed without terrible consequences (see: feminism, esp. third-wave). We all have to take the hand we are dealt in this life and play it to the best of our ability. Stomping our feet and crying "not fair" doesn't make the problems disappear, as much as we would like it to.

      [–]HeelsDownEyesUp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      We're talking more about how a woman can show she can take care of herself neatly, it's more than simply caking on the makeup or doing up her hair. Most of the people I see in the gym are men, and female athletes, hardly any "normal" women go in or even do much work once setting a foot over the threshold. Becoming fit as a woman takes more effort than it does for a man due to our lack of testosterone; it is harder to accomplish.

      Plenty of men are attracted to just good genetics and makeup/hairstyles/clothes on a woman. Plenty are also attracted to a fit woman of ideal weight and good hygiene who knows how to properly dress herself. Not blingin' jewelry and expensive outfits, I mean at least half the time making an effort past rolling out of bed in a T-shirt and soft shorts; dress appropriately for where you're going, preferably wear things that fit or flatter your shape or color coordinate a bit.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      women are valued for something so superficial as appearance

      I'd say it's just biology. Men prefer larger breasts because subconsciously it tells them that their offspring will have enough nutrition which translates to a healthier baby.

      They prefer larger butts because subconsciously it says that their hips will have an easier time pushing through a baby. Less complications at birth means less chance of an accident that could cause permanent damage.

      They prefer girls within their BMI because again, subconsciously it tells them that they girls hormone levels are in check and overall her body is running well internally.

      Fat chicks, you will find, generally have more of a psychological problem, than a physical one.

      Just my 2 cents.

      [–]Lyrad1002 6 points7 points  (0 children)

      Yep, in a world where over half the women are overweight, anyone can be at least a 5/10 if they put in the work.

      [–]TheTerrorSquadEndorsed Contributor 28 points29 points  (0 children)

      You sound depressed and self absorbed which I can imagine is the real reason it keeps the men away. I doubt you're a 3 I think your sense of self is a 3 but in reality being young and slim by itself would get you a fair amount of attention.

      It can be a bit of a shocker when you first read trp and if your identity is a bit shakey it could easily consume/overwhelm you but make no mistakes your real source of power comes from you and not an Internet forum. Take what you need from it and use it. Use it to your advantage. Be a better person.
      At a guess you are navel gazing too much you're 19 you have your health you have your life in front of you and you have a lot going for you. Once you have taken what you need from all of the stuff you have found go out and live your life instead of reading about it online.

      [–][deleted] 22 points23 points  (3 children)

      2) Settling for a secure relationship with a low SMV man that nobody wants and never having to worry about competition, but not being happy in that relationship.

      Or you could steel yourself to have an attitude of gratitude and get such a man and have love and babies.

      [–]my-redpillthrowaway 7 points8 points  (1 child)

      I don't agree with this. You are saying she should stay in a relationship even if she is not happy in it. The correct thing to do would be to improve herself so that she could attract the type of guy she wants.

      [–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

      How did I say she should "stay in a relationship" if she's "not happy in it"? Ones happiness is in ones own hands. She's describing herself as someone who will get lower smv men. You can be happy and have Love with a lower smv man if you get your head straight

      [–]jimjamj 7 points8 points  (0 children)

      You've taken each aspect of this new dogma and are looking at it in the most negative possible way. That's why you're so depressed about this stuff. You might benefit from learning how to "reframe" some of your thoughts about the aspects of RP.

      Like, for each fact/aspect, you've interpreted it in a way to make you feel worthless. E.g., w/ sex drive, you're like
      "men need sex" --> "I have low sex drive" --> "I'm worthless"
      you could be thinking
      "men need sex" --> "one's sex drive is malleable" --> "I could potentially please any man! great!"

      Read this. I found that just now by googling "guide to reframing" -- If you want more, google phrases like that ("reframing", or maybe "empowering context", or something like "optimism")

      [–]Pink_acetaminophen 9 points10 points  (0 children)

      I really hate writing long run on comments but i just want to send you some support. You're obviously a logical and reasonable person if you ended up here. You just have to realize that men definitely care about a great personality and that most of your appearance is controllable. Check out the rules revisited site about how feminine beauty is highly controllable, I'm sure somebody already posted a link. You have to become more aware of the hard work women put into their beauty routine and put effort into learning about how to dress yourself better, do your hair better, do your make up better, get fitter, learn to cook better and healthier, learn to keep a home and really learn to be proud of something you took effort in. You seem to have no idea of how insane some of these transformations are that women have from better hair, make up, weight loss or even just outfits.

      Your biggest issue isn't being ugly at all its letting go of the bitterness and coldness in your heart and embracing a new life in which you are open to love. Being a loyal, trustworthy, hard working, loving, nurturing, respectful woman is something to offer in a relationship. Those are the qualities that a mediocre girl can wish a guy would look past her appearance to see instead of being a constant smart ass with no self esteem or respect or self control or work ethic Like most of those complainers seem to be. You need to take your life into your own hands and always choose logic and hard work over instantly gratifying self victimization. Become the best version of you and learn how you can be a woman that adds to a man's life and you'll find someone who may not be a 9 but will work just as hard you do to make you happy too.

      [–]eatplaycrushEndorsed Contributor 25 points26 points  (10 children)

      Bad genetics? No offense, but this isn't fatlogic. I have not seen many ugly women that have been totally unable to improve their physical appearance, be it in their face or their weight. There is always room for improvement, period.

      I didn't read everything because you blaming bad genetics just turned me off. Not being rude, just being real. Sorry.

      [–]-Ignotus- 7 points8 points  (2 children)

      Bad genetics might give you a disadvantage, however, it is usually not an unfixable disadvantage. Unless you are born missing your hands or being unable to walk or something like that, you are usually able to make yourself a whole lot more attractive simply by working out and getting fit, dressing well, simply taking care of your skin and wearing make-up.

      [–]eatplaycrushEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      Which is what I said, but in a short statement. You don't need to be a genius to understand that logically, but you do need to think outside of your own feeeeeeelings. I extended feeeeel since OP did as well, cuz, ya know, that's logical.

      [–]PowerHuffGirl[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      I must acknowledge that I wasn't very clear in the OP. A 3 is what I am without enhancement. I thought that the number that I am in my “natural state” would give you a more accurate idea of how pretty I am and how pretty I can be, compared to the number that I am with enhancement (makeup, styled hair and clothes) because that varies depending on the enhancement, whereas my level of beauty at my lowest/natural point is relatively static. With enhancement I've managed to become a 4,5 or 5 maybe, but that's it.

      When I said "not because I let myself go", I meant that I'm not a fat slob. My weight is not the biggest issue by far, it's mostly weak/crude facial features and bad body shape (not because of fatness, but just because...I don’t know how to word it, but you know how two skinny people can still have different body shapes). It's when I see that I’m still not pretty despite doing everything I know to enhance myself (besides surgery, which is risky and costly) that I blame the “bad genes”.

      As for extending the word “feels”, people often write it that way when they’re being patronizing, so I was just copying them to get that kind of attitude across. I don't know if your last sentence was sarcastic or not, so I'm clarifying that just in case.

      Anyway, I sincerely thank you for your input.

      [–]Bortasz 5 points6 points  (6 children)

      To be honest we do not see her pictures... there are women who just born ugly.

      http://i.imgur.com/0Ijt1.jpg

      And only surgery can help them,

      [–]indiastocker 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      Oh no, the last picture on part 1 of the scale is that of a french woman who had a degenerative disease that caused her insane headaches. She suffered so much that her son assisted her in suicide and is now in jail. It's sad to see her picture being used for this.

      [–]Bortasz 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      If you prefer something with little more humour:

      http://imgur.com/gallery/ykS9h97

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      This, I would say is an excellent reference guide, if not by visual queues, then by the descriptions. Very very accurate.

      [–]eatplaycrushEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      A ton or those people could improve by simply not being weird. Guess what, though? There is always room for improvement, period, and that even includes surgery. There is no gray area here.

      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

      [deleted]

        [–]Bortasz 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Sorry but you do not have standards.... Between 3-4 is fluid difference.
        Between 4 and 5 is HUGE...

        [–]mr_willz 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        There's already some great advice in this thread, but being as self aware as you are, you have got nothing to worry about and you will make someone very happy.

        Don't hold men up to such a pedestal either, trust me you do not want to be one, women are great and honestly, it's can be very stressful being a 'captain'.

        I want you to realise that redpill is not one ideology, there are people out there who 'spin plates', but there are also people out there completely LTR focused, they do not have the same ideals.

        What a LTR focused red piller is looking for is a woman he can be attracted to (don't worry, doesn't take a lot. A huge part of attraction is confidence, own it.), but most of all a woman who is stable, who we can trust, and have some certain intelligence to grasp things (which you obviously do). LTR focused red pillers are NOT looking for the next 19 year old blonde who has great boobs, sure I look at them but personally I am half disgusted by these woman however attractive they may be, they are not the woman I respect.

        The woman I respect are woman like you, woman who are looking for a true relationship, looking to put real effort in to make each other happy (don't forget it's your job to keep your man happy, but also his job is to keep you happy and safe), look at life from a realistic view point and are self aware. You know how rare it is to find a woman like you? LTR focused red pillers are looking for a woman like you, not plate material.

        Finally, don't take everything red pill says at face value, just like the plate spinning part, it fits to some people but not to everyone. Red pill is not some hidden bible to life for which everything is set in stone, it is advice, full of research and logical thinking that can help you. And do not be jealous of men, honestly you have less expectations apart from all the things you already seem to have like stability, honesty, awareness, intelligence. Go find yourself a man and go be happy.

        [–]Ojisan1 3 points4 points  (0 children)

        I greatly appreciated hearing your perspective on things. But I think one critical piece you might be missing is this whole "low SMV/high SMV" man being binary. There's a broad spectrum between the top 0.000001% (the 50 Shades of Grey unicorns), the top 1% of alpha studs, the top 10% of alpha wolves, the top 20% of good men who are above average, and have enough alpha traits but also aren't necessarily players. Then you have the truly average, the masses who are pretty brainwashed beta blue pill. Then you have the truly low SMV: the basement dwellers, the neckbearded omega white knights, etc.

        So what are you really looking for? A top 1% alpha who is only interested in spinning plates anyway, and isn't offering anyone the possibility of an LTR? Or maybe someone in the top 20%.

        Just something to consider.

        [–]cxj 3 points4 points  (0 children)

        This was very moving, i saved it and have thought of these issues ugly women face before. There were a few miaconceptions already addressed by other commenters. Thanks for sharing.

        [–]mrp3anut 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        I would liek to point out a few things to you about how you evaluate the world.

        Sadly feminism as a movement have systematically demolished the value society places on the feminine strengths so some of what you say regarding male achievement being more valuable is true as far as what the dumb masses think.

        However, as much as people on the outside of your relationship may think your husband is awesome if he is a CEO, astronaut, POTUS, etc consider what it must be like to be the woman that are married to those men. Now consider for a moment how many women that have attained CEO status are as happy as the aforementioned women.

        What a lot of women seem to not realize is that your ability to have a meaningful impact on society is greatly increased as an average woman living in an RP style marriage compared to the average male. Work in the corporate world is not awesome. 99.9% of people never become CEO's or have some awesome job where they are brokering deals to change the world, make millions of dollars etc. Work for most people used to be digging coal out of the ground, turning a wrench in a factory, loading railroad cars etc and now most of those jobs are gone and have been replaced with cubicle farms where people shuffle paperwork from one side of their desk to another while listening to their boss bitch about the new format for DPS reports. Do you really believe that is more meaningful than what you could do even as a SAHM that does nothing outside the home?

        Let's compare you devoting your 20's to getting an M.D. compared to a 4 year in nursing while focusing on being a good RPW and finding a strong husband to support you. While spending your 20's on the M.d. leads to a powerful job it will detract from your value as a wife due to the assumption that you will be dedicated to that career or even if you arent now you have upwards of 100-250k in student loans to pay off while not working. The nurse however wont have those loans, will be younger when she marries and once the kids are of school age and gone from 8am to 3pm she can volunteer at free clinics providing medical care to people that could otherwise not afford it. The beauty of this is that she could also put her family first so she would never be forced to miss any of the important events in her childrens' lives, nor would she have to put up with the asshole bosses, worrying about getting leave that matches her husband's for vacations etc.

        Best advice i can give is to stop caring what the misguided people in the world think of you and start looking for ways to achieve what you want in your life not what other people say you should achieve.

        [–]gabilromariz 6 points7 points  (0 children)

        No girl needs to be less than a 5, if you're objective about it: http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2011/09/feminine-beauty-is-highly-controllable.html

        Check the link for numerical details and guides on how to raise your look to at least 5.5 (which is the absolute lowest for someone who is trying hard in the looks department)

        Personality wise you have a lot of work ahead of you but a happy marriage isn't out of the table if you work hard. Most men, when they find a worthy wife, will not trade you for a "younger model" if you keep them happy.

        In the wise words of Dr. Laura: don't be fat, don't be a bitch. These two tips alone will serve you well even if you're not fortunate in the genetic front.

        As for myself, I can relate, and will make a more detailed field report someday for the full journey of discovering RP stuff and how m life has improved. For now I'll give you the short version.

        I found RP in highschool, as a nerdy, tubby and bitchy teen. I dressed in hoodies and was "one of the guys". I read all I could, but it made me bitter and well, jaded. Fortunately, some materials out there mention hope for women :)

        I started out by reading up on what men wanted, all sorts of studies and such, and made appreciable progress, to the point that I got myself a boyfriend I was super attracted to. I felt like I didn't deserve to be with him.

        In the first months, due to my gigantic insecurities, I was less than pleasant to be around sometimes, but we managed to get by. Thank goodness I found RPW. This is a much easier way for women to improve themselves rather than try to decrypt materials made for men. We're now 4 years going strong and he's been very appreciative of my positive changes. That said, this is a never ending journey and even though I'm getting older, I feel my SMV is rising from working hard at all the other factors.

        I'd be happy to help you too if you'd like

        TL;DR: Read the link, you're never too old to improve, even though this is hard and makes you bitter at the begining, learning to accept it and using that "rage" to push yourself to improve has great results

        [–]Iva3442 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        Every preference, drive, and inclination that I have, and every preference, drive, and inclination that men have is ideal and effective in its goal of continuing and perfecting the human race. My urges and desires and the urges and desires of men are the same instincts that allowed my ancestors to survive generation after generation when so many others died with no genetic lineage left behind, the same instincts that are responsible for my existence on this earth today. These instincts may not make me happy, they are not designed to make me happy, they are designed to make sure that humanity thrives and evolves and improves with every generation. By understanding and working with these instincts, I will create the best offspring possible, and the best world possible for said offspring to grow up and thrive in. Evolutionary biology will not always meet my personal goals or desires. It's not a conspiracy against me, it's not a personal cosmic grudge, it's not a problem that needs to be fixed. It's perfectly suited for continuing the human race.

        Take a deep breath, understand that it's not really about you. The key to emotionally accepting the red pill is getting your emotions out of it altogether.

        As for men being more valuable to society, ah no. Society requires humans, women give birth to and rear humans. Take two tribes of 10 human beings. One tribe has 9 women and one man. The other has 9 men and one woman. Which society has a better chance of surviving a generation from now?

        Society values man and women equally. But it uses men and women in very different ways in order to thrive.

        [–]throwaway_redpill2 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        To add a more selfish perspective, now that you are aware how the world is run, you can use the information to your advantage.

        In terms of looks, as many have stated you can improve them. Diets, makeup...even plastic surgery, if it's necessary. Technology today has made it easier than ever to at least come off as a 5.

        In terms of men, you can now be realistic. Non-high (i.e. 20%) SMV men have a crappier time of it than you'd think due to the Pareto distribution of female interest, so pull an Odysseus and shoot for an acceptable-level SMV man who will appreciate your company, and enjoy him. Not everyone can handle an "alpha" and that's totally fine.

        In terms of relationships, you give what you get. Now you know what makes an average man happy, and honestly it's fairly simple. Food, sex, interesting and pleasant conversations perhaps... it's certainly not rocket science!

        In short instead of dwelling on the high SMV you could have been/once were/missed out on, etc, and the high SMV man you'll never get, use the information you now have to better your own life.

        Finally, to answer the question in your title, some concepts of TRP were a reality check to me (ex: the age thing). Others I wrote off, or flatly disagreed with, and I continue to disagree to this day. You get to choose what you make of TRP after all. And finally, what remained basically sounded like cheat codes on how to make my guy happy, so I took what I could and, I like to think, became a better person for it.

        [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        I just wanted to say that I enjoyed your post very much.

        [–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (9 children)

        I feel you completely. We want men to admire us for the qualities that we admire in ourselves. It is frustrating to be admired for your shapely breasts instead of your hard-work.

        According to TRP, the ideal woman is a domestic goddess whose primary purpose in life is to support her husband, but they don't admire these women. No one is interested in what you know 'as a mother' or 'as a wife'. Literally the only requirements to be either of these is a.) be a women and b.) find some guy to mate with you. Anyone can do this. However, not everyone can be an accomplished physicist or inventor. Because of this, women lose respect for not reaching the same level of achievement as men. They are mocked for not being as accomplished in science and technology, but at the same time, men are not attracted to women who are ambitious in either of these fields. Women lose either way.

        I was faced with this dilemma about 10 years ago, and my decision has worked out quite well for me. I basically decided to be a WGTOW, like you put it. I forgot about trying to please men, and instead just did what I wanted. I made my goals my priority and worked towards becoming the person I wanted to be.

        Surprisingly, the men followed. Previously I had been desperate for male attention and validation, but I was basically invisible to them. Now that I didn't care, men were all over me. I wasn't going to clubs or bars, just men in my life slowly became increasingly interested in me. Approaching and passing the wall has seemingly not affected my SMV at all. If anything, men are more interested in me now then they ever were.

        I don't claim to know why this is. Perhaps its because I entered a male dominated field, and I was simply a novelty. Maybe I was surrounding myself with men of high character who actually did care about hard work. But it doesn't matter to me regardless. I have defined my own value, and that value does not require validation from men or anyone else.

        So yes, the reality is that men prefer feminine faces, large breasts, and small waists. But my question to you is why should their concept of an ideal women have any more authority than your own? Aren't you only giving it authority because you want so badly to be attractive to them? If you don't care about being attractive to men, then their opinions mean almost nothing. You can simply just not choose to play the game. I chose not to play, and I feel like I won anyways.

        Also, I don't own any cats.

        [–]AerobusTRP MOD 7 points8 points  (7 children)

        We want men to admire us for the qualities that we admire in ourselves. It is frustrating to be admired for your shapely breasts instead of your hard-work.

        I want women to admire men for all of their positive qualities and not discriminate against short men, men with more feminine-facial features, and men with short penis sizes, but guess what--men can't change what women are attracted to and neither can women change what men are attracted to. The fact of the matter is there are a lot of things men and women can change to make themselves more attractive, and a lot of things they can't change. That is just reality, not some 'misogynistic speak.'

        According to TRP, the ideal woman is a domestic goddess whose primary purpose in life is to support her husband, but they don't admire these women.

        You're misguided. According to TRP, the ideal woman/women doesn't/don't exist. Men and women should aim to become the ideal, but human beings are saddled with flaws that prevent us from achieving the ideal.

        No one is interested in what you know 'as a mother' or 'as a wife'.

        Men are very much interested in what you know as a mother or as a wife if we are planning for you to become a mother or wife.

        Because of this, women lose respect for not reaching the same level of achievement as men. They are mocked for not being as accomplished in science and technology, but at the same time, men are not attracted to women who are ambitious in either of these fields. Women lose either way.

        This is so incorrect and it is obvious you are hamstering.

        First off, to be fair, there is discrimination in tech (especially silicon valley) where women do get harassed at times. However, they are not mocked. The simple fact of the matter is that because of how western women are raised today if a woman isn't praised every 10 minutes she feels like she is being treated unfairly, not respect, or 'mocked' in this case. Women have been coddled by society and become addicted to validation, one way or another in their upbringing.

        Secondly, there are many feminist-backed campaigns to get women into the technology sector. Women in STEM has become a campaign that all of American society backs today. The women in STEM campaign has received more support from men than from women, as there are more men in the technology sector that are able to improve the situation for women.

        I was faced with this dilemma about 10 years ago, and my decision has worked out quite well for me. I basically decided to be a WGTOW, like you put it. I forgot about trying to please men, and instead just did what I wanted. I made my goals my priority and worked towards becoming the person I wanted to be.

        I hope for your sake that you genuinely are happy and not using this as an excuse. More men than women can be genuinely happy ignoring the other sex because of their innate disposability.

        As a whole, your entire comment is illogical. You go on about how it's unfair that women are valued for what they are valued, then you talk about TRP's ideal woman, then you talk about how you are WGTOW so none of it matters and that you are happy. If you're truly happy you wouldn't waste time worrying about the differences in the sexes and their attraction because you (presumably) have already found happiness.


        One last thing; you say the following:

        Approaching and passing the wall has seemingly not affected my SMV at all.

        The wall is undeniable. It happens for every woman. Maybe you aged better because of your lifestyle. Maybe you aged, but you became more attractive to men because of your personality or other attributes. Maybe you're simply a genetic exception.

        If you really did receive more attention after the wall, good for you. However, the wall does affect most (i.e. 99% of) women adversely.

        [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (6 children)

        I want women to admire men for all of their positive qualities and not discriminate against short men, men with more feminine-facial features, and men with short penis sizes, but guess what--men can't change what women are attracted to and neither can women change what men are attracted to. The fact of the matter is there are a lot of things men and women can change to make themselves more attractive, and a lot of things they can't change. That is just reality, not some 'misogynistic speak.'

        I agree, but I'm not sure why you are telling me this since I never said otherwise.

        You're misguided. According to TRP, the ideal woman/women doesn't/don't exist. Men and women should aim to become the ideal, but human beings are saddled with flaws that prevent us from achieving the ideal.

        So what would you rather I say? The ideal women according to TRP does not actually exist but they encourage women to aim for the ideal which is to be a domestic goddess? This sounds a little wordy to me. Why can't I just say that the ideal woman according to TRP is a domestic goddess? It means almost exactly the same thing.

        Men are very much interested in what you know as a mother or as a wife if we are planning for you to become a mother or wife.

        Good to know.

        First off, to be fair, there is discrimination in tech (especially silicon valley) where women do get harassed at times. However, they are not mocked. The simple fact of the matter is that because of how western women are raised today if a woman isn't praised every 10 minutes she feels like she is being treated unfairly, not respect, or 'mocked' in this case. Women have been coddled by society and become addicted to validation, one way or another in their upbringing.

        With all due respect, I think you are creating some imaginary person in your head to argue with. I never said anything about discrimination, or harassment, or being treated unfairly. All I said is that women are mocked for not achieving as much as men. I didn't describe the circumstances in which they are mocked, you just jumped to that conclusion all by yourself.

        Secondly, there are many feminist-backed campaigns to get women into the technology sector. Women in STEM has become a campaign that all of American society backs today. The women in STEM campaign has received more support from men than from women, as there are more men in the technology sector that are able to improve the situation for women.

        Again, I never said that women don't receive support, or have barriers to entering STEM.

        I hope for your sake that you genuinely are happy and not using this as an excuse. More men than women can be genuinely happy ignoring the other sex because of their innate disposability.

        Thank you for your concern.

        As a whole, your entire comment is illogical.

        You came to a RPW thread where the OP specifically asked people to share their feelings and experiences, encourage togetherness, and avoid being blunt. That's what I did. Why were you expecting logic?

        then you talk about how you are WGTOW so none of it matters and that you are happy. If you're truly happy you wouldn't waste time worrying about the differences in the sexes and their attraction because you (presumably) have already found happiness.

        Thanks for letting me know.

        The wall is undeniable. It happens for every woman. Maybe you aged better because of your lifestyle. Maybe you aged, but you became more attractive to men because of your personality or other attributes. Maybe you're simply a genetic exception.

        Maybe.

        If you really did receive more attention after the wall, good for you. However, the wall does affect most (i.e. 99% of) women adversely.

        Yep, I agree. That's why I did what I did.

        [–]AerobusTRP MOD 5 points6 points  (5 children)

        Your comment and your comment history indicate a general lack of understanding regarding TRP. In actuality, I did not even plan on responding to your comment. Other RPW encouraged me to do so, and after listening to them, I agreed to type up my comment.

        I want to clarify some things. First, I forgot to mention in my original comment, that the ideal woman isn't a domestic goddess. Sure, some men want housewives, but even they don't see the perfect housewife as a domestic goddess. While a small percentage of men want a domestic goddess, I guarantee you plenty of men will want women that are smart, passionate, and have hobbies (of course, in addition to not being fat, being generally pleasant, and being attractive).

        Second, I'm not creating some fictitious individual to argue with. I mentioned all the points I did because I felt as if you needed some perspective, given your comments on this thread. (Actually, it wasn't just me, but others as well).

        Third, I think I can safely say that it is important to be logical in all of your comments on this sub (and TRP if you go there). Both of these subs aim to be of high quality.

        [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (4 children)

        Your comment and your comment history indicate a general lack of understanding regarding TRP. In actuality, I did not even plan on responding to your comment. Other RPW encouraged me to do so, and after listening to them, I agreed to type up my comment.

        Frankly, that's a little weird. Why didn't they respond themselves if they had an issue? And why did you go through my post history? Just address the issue instead of trying to profile me.

        I want to clarify some things. First, I forgot to mention in my original comment, that the ideal woman isn't a domestic goddess. Sure, some men want housewives, but even they don't see the perfect housewife as a domestic goddess. While a small percentage of men want a domestic goddess, I guarantee you plenty of men will want women that are smart, passionate, and have hobbies (of course, in addition to not being fat, being generally pleasant, and being attractive).

        Yes I understand that all men aren't the same. I didn't think I needed to clarify that. Nor did I say that men don't like smart women with hobbies. In general, TRP encourages women to get married, learn domestic skills, satisfy their men sexually, and be supportive of their husbands and his goals. To me that is a domestic goddess. Why do you have a problem with that phrase?

        Third, I think I can safely say that it is important to be logical in all of your comments on this sub (and TRP if you go there). Both of these subs aim to be of high quality.

        Could you explain exactly how my post was illogical? So far your only objections have either been to something that I never said, or to a word I used.

        [–]AerobusTRP MOD 2 points3 points  (3 children)

        They didn't respond because they felt I would do a better job. Prior to typing my response to you here on reddit, I had already communicated my thoughts with them, and they communicated their thoughts with me.

        I did not go so far as to profiling you. I simply viewed your original comment and a couple others, like they did as well. Comment and submission history is made public by default. I am allowed to look through yours as you are allowed to look through mine.

        In general, TRP encourages women to get married, learn domestic skills, satisfy their men sexually, and be supportive of their husbands and his goals.

        Actually, that's the message of RPW, and it's not because that is what the husband wants. It's because the women on RPW have found out that doing that makes them genuinely happy. I recommend you talk to /u/homo_homini_lupus regarding this. She shared with me a short story about how she really felt happier making a sandwich for her husband than graduating law school.

        I don't have a problem with the the phrase, but I think it implies that the woman is nothing more than someone who is a housewife, which isn't true.

        Could you explain exactly how my post was illogical? So far your only objections have either been to something that I never said, or to a word I used.

        I don't believe I objected to things you never said, otherwise why would I object to it.

        Generally speaking, the comment comes across as illogical--especially taken in context with some other comments you made--because you go on about how frustrated you were initially, how you believe that TRP men want a domestic goddess (and your tone implies that you don't like this), and you do a 180 and say "well I'm WGTOW so it doesn't matter and I'm happy." It seems very weird and almost sounds fake.

        [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

        I did not go so far as to profiling you. I simply viewed your original comment and a couple others, like they did as well. Comment and submission history is made public by default. I am allowed to look through yours as you are allowed to look through mine.

        I know that you are allowed to, I'm just surprised that you did.

        Actually, that's the message of RPW, and it's not because that is what the husband wants. It's because the women on RPW have found out that doing that makes them genuinely happy. I recommend you talk to /u/homo_homini_lupus regarding this. She shared with me a short story about how she really felt happier making a sandwich for her husband than graduating law school.

        I believe you. Why do you want me to talk to her?

        I don't have a problem with the the phrase, but I think it implies that the woman is nothing more than someone who is a housewife, which isn't true.

        What's the politically correct way to say domestic goddess according to you?

        I don't believe I objected to things you never said, otherwise why would I object to it.

        It's a puzzle to me too.

        Generally speaking, the comment comes across as illogical--especially taken in context with some other comments you made--because you go on about how frustrated you were initially, how you believe that TRP men want a domestic goddess (and your tone implies that you don't like this), and you do a 180 and say "well I'm WGTOW so it doesn't matter and I'm happy." It seems very weird and almost sounds fake.

        So your objection is that it seems weird to you, you don't like my tone, and I seemed fake? That's what you call illogical? You could just say, 'I don't believe you'.

        [–]HeelsDownEyesUp 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        To add in a third voice here; I agree with Aerobus, he did word it better than I could have.

        At this point it's a rather pointless conversation over a misunderstanding.

        [–]dominotw 5 points6 points  (1 child)

        They can work on their SMV

        Intelligence like physical beauty is genetically determined for the most part. One can't become smart, successful and dominant by working on themselves.

        I don't think men are inherently more valuable . This is how I see it

        Successful men > pretty women > ugly women > unsuccessful men

        [–]cxj 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        ^ really good point

        [–]dbphreakdb 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Might not be the standard line towed by the red pill, but I look at a woman that can mentally engage me more of a turn on than a conventionally pretty female. Of course, this is coming from a man who is not your standard red piller. While I am in my 30s,I have never been married, and I have no kids. I have always been able to attract women through my charisma, and primal approach, as well as my give no fucks attitude. I am the dude that will shock and surprise you. Here is the thing: I am a 6 or 7. I know that shit, I own it, and for the most part am comfortable in my my skin. Confidence, even in plain people, is sexy. The problem is, that can't be faked.

        You want romantic, everlasting love? Find qualities in yourself that make you worthy of that. Build confidence in yourself with that. Then, project your ideals, desires and values, as well as the qualities that make you worthy of that which you desire. You will find a man that is looking for what you are selling. He might not be top notch, but treat him like he is, and he will become as top notch as he possibly can. Just remember, what you have learned in your journey.

        [–]squishles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        You're really downplaying how hard that nurturing playful stuff is. I'm kinda shitty at it; the power junk, that's just making and taking whatever you feel like, that's easy for guys after they get through the whole mental unfucking bit.

        I can think of only a handful of women I've met who really really have that whole playful nurturing aspect mastered and most of them were already married when I met them. As for it's affect, that chastity part is going to become a looootttt harder if you get it down.

        The beauty part; without that and you having the nurting stuff down, I'd still hit that. Same with the beauty without the nurturing. Really I'd lean more toward the nurturing, because I like cute shit, but I'm not going out of my way for either by themselves =/

        The deferential stuff is just not getting a guy who has the power part down then kicking him into submissive mode. If you wanna go out and build shit conquer the world, whatever it won't hurt getting guys beyond time expenditure opportunity cost. Maybe it's invisible to me, I don't remember ever thinking "she's too rich and powerful, I don't want to stick my dick in her" toward any girl XD They do act strange though, makes you think they're not into men taking charge of things that sort of thing. What they say and what they do; they tend to be easier to get off that than normal women. Don't even have to be for reals more powerful just gotta act like it.

        [–]Nynx12 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        1) Pre RP I was basically the same. I have always rejected the label "feminist" and am naturally very submissive. However, I was very naive, and let people take advantage of me a lot. I did not realise that I let people take advantage of me until I discovered this sub and reflected on my past. I was not aware of the "harsh truths" of TRP and was very idealistic.

        2) My ex introduced me to some anti-feminism stuff. What he said made me very angry, actually, but once I did the research I had to admit he was right. I fell into a very deep depression and felt like a lesser human being, but I kept this mostly hidden. We continued to discuss anti-feminist ideas, but I doubt he knew it really hurt me on the inside. I stopped reading posts on the TRP after a while because they left me feeling so hopeless and lost.

        3) I really like this sub and the way people seek advice and get it - not just empty validation "screw him, you go girl!" type nonsense. I feel I could have done without discovering TRP first. That sub is not meant for women and mostly affected me negatively. I don't think I needed it - I wasn't an insufferable bitch before. But I have made a few adjustments on the advice of this sub and they have been very positive.

        4) Time, and avoiding TRP posts. As I mentioned before it is not meant for me, so why would I force myself to read it when it demotivates me? Putting changes into place and seeing results. Also, realising that truly accepting and living in reality will make you happier in the long run than attempting to live in fantasy, even if it seems more depressing in direct comparison.

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Man here. I'm going to echo your sentiments about TRP being a fairly negative place that I need to breaks from.

        There is some good stuff there, but the framing of it often clashes with the type of people (women) I experience in real life.

        [–]Aine_of_knockaine 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        I’m a low SMV female. I'm physically a 3/10. Because of bad genes, not because I let myself go.

        You're young and if you're even slightly attractive that gets you more than you think.

        Youth & fertility & beauty: These features are so damn transient. We lose those no matter what we do. It's frustrating that our SMV depends on things we have almost no control over.

        You've already mentioned some things you can do that help SMV, but there are more. Wear sunscreen and don't go tanning. It will save your skin from a hell of a lot of wrinkles. Plastic surgery is also an option, but not everyone can afford it.

        The truth is there are things in the world that are out of our control. Stressing and being upset over them doesn't change them. Heck, it will do awful things to your body. Have you ever seen the effects of stress on the human body? Yuck!

        Chastity: This must suck for high libido women, but it was pretty easy to accept for me, because my sex drive is so low that I have close to zero interest in casual hookups anyway.

        There are other ways to get your rocks off than having intercourse. Not trying to sound crass, but it's why masturbation exists. The point is that chastity is attractive for a multitude of reasons from STI risks to better efficacy in pair bonding and even lower rates of divorce/cheating.

        Also girls who hand it out like candy typically have low self-esteem and self-esteem issues can be detrimental to relationships of any kind.

        Sexual satisfaction: The problem is, the low sex drive would be a serious issue in a LTR. I knew that men had a higher drive, but not to the extent that RP taught me. RP made me aware of the fact that sex is a physical urge to men, they must have it often (either with a partner or alone). As a woman, arousal isn't as easy to stir, so I realized that I wouldn't be able to keep a man satisfied without regularly forcing myself to have sex that I’m not in the mood for just for him.

        It is a need. We all have needs. I have sexual needs and so does my SO. It isn't a bad thing. Sex can be a very healthy activity. It burns calories, provides cardio exercise, decreases stress levels, and a plethora of other things.

        Sexual responsiveness can also be worked on.

        I found the idea of forcing myself to have sex like it's a chore so unromantic it was repugnant. That's not what mainstream culture says that married life will be like. Mainstream culture says that sex needs to be a special expression of love that's enjoyable for both partners, so if she's not in the mood, it's not happening and he should just respect that lest he objectifies her. The fact that RP contradicted this rubbed me the wrong way because RP desacralized sex.

        It isn't hard to get into the mood. Remember foreplay. Think about kissing and heavy petting. It can be easy to become aroused if you're just willing to be receptive to it.

        I felt even more pressure after RP taught me that men need sex to feel close to their mate and not having it makes them feel painfully undesirable and not loved. I would feel loved and desirable just with cuddling, lots of hanging out together and occasional sex. It was hard for me to believe that this wasn't enough validation for men.

        Dr. Laura Berman explains it like this men need sex to have intimacy and women need intimacy to have sex.

        RP also taught me that sexual monogamy was a great struggle for a man. Even when in love with one woman, he fights the urge to have sex with many different women. And even when he's 50, his sexual preference remains set on the looks of 18 year old girls, so he can lose desire for his wife that he loves because she changed so much with age that she's too far from his natural standard. Mainstream culture says that he should desire the person he loves even after 40 years of being together, but apparently men just aren't wired that way. Men aren't going to ditch someone who is loyal and contributes to their lives positively when it is hard to find that.

        Nurturing: That means being sweet, playful, receptive, sensitive, supportive.

        I hated this because it’s a trait that is so easy to have.

        Is it really that easy to be sweet all the time? Is it really that easy to be receptive and sensitive all the time?

        It really isn't. It is hard and takes work especially with hormones flooding our bodies. Why is this not admirable? This doesn't set the bar low in all reality. It actually sets it high.

        My problem with this was that I had trouble accepting the RP idea that women are naturally more attracted to nurturing roles while men are naturally more driven to go outside and conquer the world, as opposed to the feminist misconception that women and men are naturally the same in that regard. It explained why men have invented and built so much more. This truth was painful to accept because it makes me feel inferior to men.

        Or why women get degrees in nurturing fields like childcare, nursing, social work, etc. It doesn't make women inferior it makes them different.

        As First Mates, we assume the supportive role while men are being CEOs, doctors, engineers, etc. And society values men for their achievements because only a limited number of people can do what they do. The male role is prestigious and elitist, whereas nobody stands in awe before the woman who does the child-rearing and the housework behind the curtains. Most people can do what she does, so society doesn't value her work. Value positively correlates with rarity. This led to the conclusion that, to society, feminine traits are inferior to masculine traits. (“value to society” =“societal value” from now on.) You're right. Other people can raise children, but how many people can actually do it well? Society values women raising children in that those children don't contribute negatively to society at a later point in time. Being a housewife is no more or less noble than going to work. Raising children is no more or less valuable than inventing the Snuggie. (I would argue that it is more valuable, but that's just me.)I wouldn't say society values feminine traits less, but that they're under appreciated now.

        The RP fact that men prefer feminine (=nurturing) women only added to this feeling of humiliation. It meant that women’s sexually valuable personality traits are traits that have inferior societal value than men’s sexually valuable personality traits. Feminism didn't raise me to be okay with that fact. It raised me to find the male preference for societally inferior traits in their mates demeaning, so that’s how I felt. Offended, degraded.

        Ignore society and it's accepted standards. Don't think about it any more. Society these days isn't the best with STI rates on the rise, teen pregnancy, fiscal issues, etc.

        If you feel like you have no value then think about what you can do better than men. You can nurture better. Women have more empathy. There are many other things focus on those. If you need to do daily affirmations. It could be helpful for you.

        You aren't necessarily inferior. You're different and that's okay.

        [–]HeelsDownEyesUp 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Personally, I was surprised such a thing as TRP existed as a "thing"--- a written concept in opposition to feminism. I grew up with some Catholic influence, though the people it came from were malevolent to me. I questioned all the religious concepts I was given and explored much of Christianity. So I saw the extremes fairly often. A bad Catholic marriage where the woman was bitter, sad, and often stomped on, and the man was angry, indecisive, and overwhelmed. I saw where things could go wrong and naturally sort of brought my own philosophy along. I didn't date or get into any romantic relationships in high school, I felt I did not have the time, didn't want to expend the effort, and it just wasn't practical. No point. Get a boyfriend just to feel loved? That should be my job, I should be comfortable with myself first. I should improve myself because I want to. If I rushed into a relationship or took whoever was attractive and had a good enough personality, it wouldn't have meaning. I'd be better off getting a pet dog. Men learn this as well, selecting a woman as a partner isn't solely based on her personality and looks. It's what attracts them to women initially. A strategic man looking for a lifelong partner is going to look beyond the romantic attraction just as I would.

        I knew something was fishy with the media and majority opinions for a long time, I never put myself in a situation to really be bothered by it. I chalked it up to foul sociobiology and the popular liberal trend.

        So I was the same before and after discovering the precise theory of TRP. I was already cozily nestled in what I believe were old-fashioned, tried-and-true traditional rural views on relationships. It was sort of natural as I ventured in Christianity and farm life. Not to say I am some weird nun or "religious nut", I'm often private about my beliefs. It's a lifestyle and directional force for me, basically. After high school I was firm on wanting a man who could run a farm. Because that's my life, I'll always live in more rural areas or on the edge of suburbs. Currently I'm in FL where there are pockets of little farms scattered around suburbs, it's a good life. I don't want to drag someone along or have to teach him. I want someone I wouldn't mind following and working with often. Many of the relationships I see in my age group are vaguely companionships, nothing more. I want a partner, not just a friend or "friend with benefits".

        It can be tough. I have a high libido and feel lonely sometimes. I only recently decided to accept a relationship, still I don't do much to attract anyone or put myself in social situations where I would find someone. I'm comfortably working on myself and my life, I don't really expect to find the guy I want now. Probably in a few more years, if someone promising shows up then I'm fine with that. I'd like to finish college first. I don't feel bad for not having a relationship yet or guys just knocking on my door; I'm interested in a specific man and the places I'm usually at (clinical college classes, the edge of the suburbs) don't often have those people there. I've been in rural areas before and saw my type all over the place, those men are definitely out there, so I don't feel depressed or bitter about me being single now ;)

        I probably have it easy compared to you or the other women who aren't geared toward rural life. The nature of my lifestyle, religious beliefs, interests, and career automatically sets me up for a TRP type of man. I expect equivalency when it comes to things like mental disorders and goals; he should be at least as serious as I am about life goals, if he has mental issues he should overcome them as I have and deal with them about as well as I do with mine, respectively.

        The people to look out for in my niche are the assholes. Overly macho, insecure, reckless fools. They're incredibly easy to spot, so I'm quite alright.

        [–]Luke666808g 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        This post really helped me to empathize with feminists and understand where they're coming from, why the ideology is so seductive despite being false. Some women aren't cut out for the feminine role, so they created a comforting lie about the nature of the sexes, so they wouldn't feel inferior to either the masculine men or the feminine women.

        [–]Zachar1a 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        As a man, I stand in awe before the woman who does the child-rearing and the housework.

        [–][deleted]  (3 children)

        [deleted]

        [–]katiewampus 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        /r/WGTOW isn't the death sentence that some posters would have you believe it is. I know several women who never married and are doing well in life. No kids or husband, but with satisfying relationships in other ares of their lives. One women in particular comes to mind. She is one of the happiest 60 year olds I know.

        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

        [deleted]

          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          What you say seems true but as a general guideline, not a hard and fast rule. Most guys are more than willing to compromise on their criteria if you are as well.

          Speaking personally, the only traits you mentioned that I would really want are the nurturing and deferential parts. The nurturing part is self-explanatory. As for the latter, I wouldn't call it "deference", more just appreciation and respect. Again, speaking personally as a guy, there's a natural inclination to just be nicer to women, to let them get away with things, to be their friend by default. You can't help it; it's just what you do. You don't yell at girls if they make you mad, you can't hit them, etc. etc. So if you're in this mindset, and a girl isn't responding with respect - what you percieve of as deference - it feels as though she's taking advantage of the fact that that sort of HAVE to be nice to her, which obviously feels pretty shitty. What you're calling "deference" is actually more of a thank-you for the pre-emptive respect/niceness he is giving you (or thinks he is giving you, depening on situation). (Incidentally, I think that's why dudes with no social skills blow up if they get rejected. Not only have you wounded their egos but in their minds you have taken advantage of them by spitting the natural mild affection they felt for you back in their face. And this is applicable even if the come-on is creepily phrased/unwanted; even nutters can have their feelings hurt; maybe more so than normies even.) Plus, I don't support my SO financially, but I'd imagine if I did I'd want a LOT of respect for that, and forgetting even for one day that you are alive and sheltered thanks to the hard work of someone else who had no obligation to provide it is, well, pretty selfish. It's probably normal to take things for granted after a while, but still.

          Additionally, speaking personally, I view women more as psychological iphone chargers than sidekicks and sex toys, if that makes sense. If you don't talk to girls for a while your confidence plummets, you're less productive and your psychology disintegrates. You get a little bitter and loopy because the manosphere tends to view the world as a ruthless competition and most guys, in order to make truly human connections, need to be reminded that there's this thing called society where might =/= right and winning isn't always the most important thing.

          On the topic of youth: yeah, it's transient, but nobody is expecting you to live forever. It's just kind of a compromise you have to make if you want to get married. I'm not gonna lie, younger women are hotter, but that's the way it is. Sex drive: I think being rejected for sex hurts more than anything but meh, I can always jerk off, sometimes it's better anyway. Men have low standards/women are replaceable: Not really, because the number of women that display even one of these traits to an attractive degree is staggeringly low. Society seems to discourage it.

          Your worries about guys are the rough equivalent to guys worrying that romance is doomed because only George Clooney can get dates. People other than George Clooney get dates, ergo, the logic behind that assumption is obviously incorrect. If the rules of sexual strategy are so uncompromising and rigid why do we still even have ugly people? Why didn't everyone except the super-genius seven-foot supermodel caste die out generations ago?

          [–]un_passant 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          I just don't get it. TRP just posits, amongst other things, that most men look for certain traits in women. If you think that it sucks and don't want your SO to have these expectations (in fact, lack thereof) towards his partner (you), just pick a man who doesn't fit TRP model. You don't need to date, much less mary most men !

          With online dating web sites like OKCupid, you'll be set in no time !

          (Well, it took me two years to find there someone who became my wife, so take the "no time" with a grain of salt ☺, but I wasn't even in an English speaking country, so ymmv).

          [–]gentrifyme 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          PERCEPTION OF THE TRUTH/NICHE TRUTH As a teenager, I spent too much time on forums with men who did not feel the control that society told them they should have and who tried to feel control by attempting to convince themselves they were entitled to it. The only truth in everything you have written is the looks thing but different men like different things. By the time they have developed a meaningful relationship with someone, the benefit of running off with a 'younger model' versus losing the years of familiarity, connectedness, in-jokes, experiences, love and mutual respect that have accrued will not be worth it.

          I know your despair very well because I am also not a good looking girl: guys can be very cruel and the message that you are worthless is loud and clear so I felt I needed the approval of men so badly. It felt as if they had complete control over me.

          RESPECTING YOUR EMOTIONS Your emotions are telling you 'this is painful' and you view it as a symptom of brainwashing? Your emotions are built up from your experience and will tell you when something isn't right. Be careful about accepting truths from people who have no empathy. TRP shows you one type of man not the cold hard truth. There ARE other men with different relationship desires.

          Also, every person can be considered brainwashed. The 'brainwashed' label is a comforting tactic that aids one to feel safe, 'enlightened' or above others. Type an opinion into google and there will be a forum dedicated to its 'truth'. Do the same with the opposing opinion. Both groups of people will be convinced of the truth and have evidence for it (confirmation bias). Both are BS and both are real. The most brutal reality of all is discovering that there are very few truths in life and that you have choices.

          CHOOSING MEN AND THE TYPE OF RELATIONSHIP YOU WANT What sort of relationship do you want? How do you want to feel in a relationship? As if you have to constantly look for his approval? I suggest never going out with a man who makes you feel you have to be grateful for him. If you have chosen based on what you want, you will naturally be grateful - no 'thankyou so much for choosing me' but 'he's quite an interesting man - i'm enjoying his company'. It's calm realisation not idolatry.

          SEX/SEXUAL DESIRES A low sex drive could just be your nature so don't go out with someone who has a high sex drive if you don't. Don't pretend to like sex to please someone. Sex is NOT a performance or something you give to a man just because he wants it. If it is not enjoyable for you, don't have it. Bear in mind that many women get nothing from penetrative sex so need alternatives. Some people are also not naturally monogamous so their sexual attraction to 1 person is not lasting.

          How do you choose men? Are you turned on by personality because if not you should be choosing based on physical lust too. You will not have a high sex drive if you are not physically attracted to him. Many women are very visual but we're discouraged from it.

          FOCUS ON YOURSELF/SELF DEVELOPMENT I don't think you sound self centred. You sound too others-centred. Start by abandoning any naive notion of universal 'truth'. You are not living in your centre and have an external locus of control that you need to shift to 'internal'.

          • Develop values. Everyone has an opinion and without values, people will walk all over you.
          • Get interested in clothes, go for make-up lessons. Lots of men like stylish women (particularly French/Italian men).
          • Hang out with different girls from geeks to housewives and men (househusbands, travellers...) who don't require you to behave in a certain way to make them feel safe.
          • Travel outside of America! The internet is so American centric and American men on the net are very insular. Travel will awaken you.
          • Hobbies. What do you enjoy doing?
          • Do you have life goals relating to career and projects? An art project? A fulfilling job? Volunteering?

          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          I'm so glad this got posted because you put it better than I ever could have and yes yes yes it pisses me off too! But i'm still here.

          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          This was a sad read. It's all very true and you have a very solid understanding of it all. It's hard for many men too, because they're not all strong alpha conquerors that can change the world. Many men suffer as you do. Basically 80% of the male population is beta, and never really achieves anything, and they're discarded to the scrap heap as a result. Thus the frustration you see on subs such as TRP.

          You're probably wondering what's next. Well i'd advise for you to subscribe to r/Futurology if you wish to expand on these issues. Because the next stage in your understanding of it all is to realise that humans are obsolete. Technology is beginning to outpace our primitive biological (homo sapien) instincts and capabilities. 'They' (scientists etc) hypothesize that artificial intelligence (a live thinking organism that is man-made) is close to realisation. Our role as a species on earth and the universe is to build AI and pass on the baton to AI, before dying out. That's the truth. How do we die out? well society breaks down (as it is now) and technology comes in to replace our basic wants and needs. Soon for example, the quality of computer games will reach the point of simulating reality. Complex virtual reality if you will. Maybe 20 years away? This is where people such as yourself (sorry, but objectively speaking) can find your break. You enter a virtual world (imagine the addictiveness of world of warcraft, crossed with human simulators like the Sims, but enhanced many, many times) that is programmed to be accepting of your faults. Within this virtual reality the betas of society can escape peacefully and blissfully - finding 'love', 'acceptance' and a reality that recreates the dreams they were raised upon.

          Within the simulator - you might be a rockstar, a fashion magnate, or just travel the world freely with a beautiful 10/10 man or woman who loves you for who you are. Soon you become attached (addicted) to this fake world and choose to leave reality behind more and more. Thus no longer breeding, just ticking down the days in a simulated happiness.

          I can assure you that this is more that hypothetical. Again, I hope you branch out with your reading and start to look ahead towards technology. You will find peace my love. Just in ways you may not have accepted. Bless you and take care, life sucks, I know.