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THEORYDitch the Resume (self.RedPillWomen)

submitted by WhisperTRP Founder

One of the most common mistakes both men and women make when trying to attract the opposite sex is projection.

Men who don't understand women will woo them with displays of devotion and declarations of passion (and come off appearing pathetic rather than attractive), because they think what men want is simply what people want.

And women who do not understand men will attempt to increase their allure by making a show of confidence they don't feel, and "playing hard to get" with a show of challenging aloofness, because they think what women want is simply what people want.

When women have significant academic or career accomplishments, they tend to fall into a particular example of this trap... assuming that men care, or should care, what they have accomplished. This can take the form of "resume courtship" (attempting to appeal to men by showing or speaking of accomplishments or capabilities), attempting to attract a man's attention by competing with him (a real turnoff), or even actually becoming angry that men do not value her small business, her executive title, or her PhD.

This is a form of projection. While women use a man's accomplishments to evaluate his character, but men do not... they have other ways to do that which they prefer.

Why?

Simple. Because men like young women. A 21 year old cannot meaningfully be evaluated by asking "Does she have a PhD in philosophy?", because no 21 year old does. A man who wishes to court her must find other ways of evaluating if she is intelligent enough to understand the world around her, a good conversationalist, and possessed of a sense of curiosity. He cannot simply ask "has she built a business from the ground up?" because she won't have done that, either... he must find other ways to evaluate if she resourceful, self-disciplined, and capable of sticking to a goal.

So, you might think that if you have a PhD, and your husband has a PhD, your PhD matters to him... but it doesn't. It didn't make him pick you. What made him pick you was the traits that enabled you to get it, coupled with the fact that he ran into you in that environment because you were there in the first place... that's how you met.

To understand this, it helps to hear a tale I was once told by a sports reporter. Apparently, the athletes' village at each olympic games is the site of a great deal of promiscuity. (Anyone surprised? Didn't think so.) But apparently the dynamic shifts as the games wear on, and more and more events are completed. As event results come in, female athletes begin to display a marked preference for male medalists. (Anyone surprised? Didn't think so.) But the instructive part is that the males do not display a corresponding preference. Female olympic athletes are highly desirable because they are pretty, healthy, energetic, and vital... but it doesn't make a damn bit of difference whether they won or not. The losers are still all of these things, and the men still seek them out.

The takeaway looks like this:

  • Men don't care about your victories, only the traits you used to get them.
  • Men don't use your victories to measure your traits or character.
  • Never expect a man to love you for your accomplishments, you will be disappointed.
  • Never build a resume for the sake of attracting a man. Only do it if you want it for some other reason.
  • Never assume you are unable to attract a high-status man because you lack the accomplishments of other women in his life. All you need is the combination of traits he desires.

[–]thewisesloth 92 points93 points  (5 children)

I've seen a few posts lately speculating about why men don't place high value on a woman's career accomplishments, I wanted to add one extra bit of nuance to OP's post, which I mostly agree with (I'm not looking for a younger woman).

My entire life, I was taught to never expect to be given anything and that it's my lot in life to be my family's bread winner. So I worked my butt off, took care of all my needs and planned to have to take care of my family's needs as well. Having accomplished all that, the only thing I can't do for myself is kiss myself on the forehead and tell me I'm loved. Compassion and sex are all I ever needed from a woman. It's not that I don't value your accomplishments or that I feel threatened by them. It's just that all I need is love. If you can bring money to the table, great, but I'll take kindness and affection over money and power any day.. That's all I ever wanted. So that's all I've ever looked for.

[–]fosho_away 12 points13 points  (1 child)

That’s a really sweet POV. :)

[–]Rian_StoneEndorsed Contributer 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Most guys misery stems from never recieving it.

the pick of women who offer it is slim, it is honestly a superpower if you can do it

[–]thatbadlarry 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Love that, thank you

[–]Wolfssenger 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Straight from my soul.

[–]Hammocknapping 29 points30 points  (31 children)

When men are trying to answer the question “Would I fuck her?” they are only look at one trait - attractiveness. When men are trying to answer the question “Would I marry her?” they look at a multitude of traits. Telling women to “ditch the resume” helps them learn how to get attraction, but it does not give them the full picture on how to gain marital level commitment from high value men.

One of those traits may be level of education. Why a man is interested in that trait may vary. A man may consider a woman with a bachelor degrees to be a better mother, because she would be better able to homeschool versus a woman with no education past high school. Or, he may value her degree because she is in a better position to help with homework and advocate for her child. Maybe he attended college and has a vision of sending his kids to college, and wants a mother for his children who offer a similar example.

The man may value a woman’s education for her added income to the family unit. His preference may be for a $200,000 household income over $100,000. Or, maybe a man wants a woman who he knows can provide for the family if he dies, is injured, looses his job or he decides to go back to school.

It’s possible that a man uses educational attainment as a marker of socio-economic status. If everyone in his family has a masters degree or higher, it’s likely that his partner will have a similar level of education.

I think it’s also worth noting that if a woman wants a high value man with a high degree of education and career success, she needs to hang out in places where these men hangout. It’s much more difficult to gain access to those places if you do not have at least a bachelor’s degree.

Edit: I’ll fix typos when I transfer from mobile to computer.

[–]WhisperTRP Founder[S] 10 points11 points  (30 children)

Just so everyone has an accurate understanding of the male mindset:

Men do not answer the question "would I fuck her?" unless someone asks. They either want to or don't... there is typically no conscious weighing of pros and cons. Whether they want to or not is based on three things: physical appearance, feminine behaviour, and absence of red flags.

Men do very consciously ask the question "Do I want to marry her?"... typically only after "do I want to fuck her?" and "do I want a relationship?". However, no man in history has ever said "Meh, if she had a college degree, I'd marry her, but as it is... nah." That's just not how the male brain works.

It is absolutely true that college-educated men marry college-educated women... but they do this while not giving a fuck about her college education.

How can that be? Very simple: College-educated women are who college-educated men run into, both in college, and afterwards. A man gives zero fucks about your degree, but if you aren't in the places he's at, then he can't meet you to accept your degreeless self.

Men do not make calculations about "bringing in additional income", or "ability to support the family if", or other such things. Men do not use a spreadsheet to decide who to marry.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that because B occurs with A, A must cause B. The real story is that X causes both A and B.

[–]Hammocknapping 20 points21 points  (5 children)

Your comments do not reflect my personal experience entering marriage. They also do not mesh with the comments I’ve heard from other men at the stage in their lives where they are making decisions about marriage.

[–]LateralThinker133 Stars 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Nothing is perfect. Plenty of redpilled men, myself included, agree with the above 100%. r/whisper is dead on.

I'm curious as to what, precisely, you disagree with.

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        [–]HappySoutherner 10 points11 points  (2 children)

        I agree. This seems to be confusing SMV with RMV.

        Perhaps it is differences in class. In my circle, there isn’t a single person who does not have a minimum of a bachelor’s degree. The high value men I know did choose women based on their own values, which for most UMC men do value education.

        Don’t get me wrong. In my experience, plenty of these men had past sexual relations with a range of women and they definitely had plenty of ONS or temporary flings with uneducated women, but they did make these women heir wives.

        I work for Fortune 20 company and have exposure to executive leadership. From my management level to executive, I can’t think of a single man whose partner does not have at least a bachelor’s. Google the top ten richest men in America...my guess is 90% have wives with higher education obtained. Bezos...Gates...Buffett...Zuckerberg...

        Correlation may not be causation, but there is a strong argument for it. And to say men do not value education in a woman is not true in my circle. I would argue this a class difference among men and lower class men who may still be high value in other ways probably don’t care.

        [–]justagumnut 11 points12 points  (0 children)

        Agreed.

        When my husband introduces me to colleagues/family/friends he always makes a point of bringing up my PhD. It makes him look good. A good friend of his (surgeon) dumped his LTR because she dropped out of university. An educated wife is a must for him, even though he had zero need for her income.

        There are certainly plenty of men out there, like OP, who don't move in these circles where education matters. There are however many who do and I feel like these are the ones who are likely most attractive to RPWs.

        [–]mmerijn 3 points4 points  (0 children)

        You cannot rule out the correlation between intelligence (a trait that is desirable to many) and education being the cause of why all these people have college educated women, and that if a not so smart woman was given a college education it would not increase her chances at getting a good partner.

        [–][deleted]  (13 children)

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          [–]hirokinae 6 points7 points  (10 children)

          I’m finishing law school. I’m currently working for the public defender, have worked for personal injury and bankruptcy attorneys and am slated to work at my city attorney’s office.

          I give zero fucks about a woman’s education, and am actually turned off by women who talk about how smart they are or try to list their accomplishments. As a friend I say “wow that’s amazing”, but I actually avoid dating any girls at my law school.

          In fact, the girl I’ve been meshing Best with is the pretty legal secretary and the paralegal in our department. Why? Because they naturally act submissive due to being “technically” lower than me on the legal totem pole and are very attentive when I ask them for something.

          I don’t need or want an intellectual equal. You wonder why but the answer is literally in OPs post; you’re projecting. If the girl happens to be smart then I just chalk it up as a plus. It’s not a requirement at all.

          Do ditsy girls turn me off? Sure, but only when it’s an extreme, and only because when it’s that bad, it’s going to affect our children in the future, she might do something stupid, (like fall for a pyramid scheme) etc.. it’s practical.

          Feminized men or men who want to project a “pc” vibe in our culture will lie to you about wanting a powerful smart woman, but our base instincts completely fight against it. Because of how busy I am I exclusively date short term or maintain FWB but if a RPW ever crosses my path it’s gonna take a lot of willpower to not wife her. RPW has what men really want down to a T, listen to them.

          [–]WhisperTRP Founder[S] 1 point2 points  (9 children)

          I’m finishing law school. I’m currently working for the public defender, have worked for personal injury and bankruptcy attorneys and am slated to work at my city attorney’s office.

          I give zero fucks about a woman’s education, and am actually turned off by women who talk about how smart they are or try to list their accomplishments. As a friend I say “wow that’s amazing”, but I actually avoid dating any girls at my law school.

          Yeah, pretty much.

          This point isn't going to get much traction, however, until I figure out the best way to make the airplane noise, because some women really do not like the idea that their master's degree in business won't make their husband love them more.

          [–]RainySeasonInPH 5 points6 points  (8 children)

          IDK dude, I think your point as it stands is mostly valid but you are going to have a hard time getting women who can think to swallow it whole, when they can see from their own experience that many men, particularly high status men, do very much care about their potential LTR's social credentials.

          You wrote a brilliant piece on here (one of many, thank you) basically inverting the idea of a slut being an easy lay, to a slut being not a keeper. While no man is going to want to fuck a girl with a resume more, it is going to increase her RMV, her keep-ability (unless perhaps her resume is better than his.)

          Because, at the very least, most humans do not live in isolation, and men want to made to look good, or at least not to took bad, by their choice of SO. And high status cultural strata tend to be contemptuous of waitresses in a way they are not of PhD candidates.

          So no guy will want to fuck a woman more because she has a resume. The resume cannot and will not create attraction. And women trying to use it for that purpose are making a giant girl game mistake. But having a resume is definitely of value in qualifying herself as LTR material to high status men.

          The Olympic village story is great. But what it proves, is that women use accomplishment as a measure of who to fuck, and men do not. It does not prove that men do not use accomplishment as a measure of who to wife.

          Many men may not use a spreadsheet to decide who to marry, but smart ones do. Impulse buys generally end in regret. The historically preferred strategy for high status men is to marries a social equal, and keep waitress for mistresses.

          [–]LateralThinker133 Stars 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          I think your point as it stands is mostly valid but you are going to have a hard time getting women who can think to swallow it whole

          lots of words that don't address the topic

          Guys want to know if a woman is a) attractive/fertile, b) pleasant and kind, c) a good mother, and d) sexy and fun. They can learn all of this when she opens her mouth for 5 minutes; NONE of those require a degree. Furthermore, a college education often implants feminist stupidity into a woman's head that takes until after she slams full speed into the wall to get it out of her head, if then.

          That's why men don't care about a college degree, at best, and avoid them, at worst. Because the man is already expecting to be the provider, so he doesn't need her credentialed, and if she has a degree she quite possibly is an indoctrinated toxic shrew.

          [–]WhisperTRP Founder[S] 1 point2 points  (6 children)

          IDK dude, I think your point as it stands is mostly valid but you are going to have a hard time getting women who can think to swallow it whole

          This is not unusual. Generally a single point requires several articles to get across, because the correct sugar coating must be found. Any idea that makes a woman feel bad will usually be rejected immediately as false. A key sign that this is happening is personalization: "Well, I don't do...", or "My husband isn't like that..." or "my relationship with my boyfriend didn't start with..."

          It's a cheap deflection designed to be inarguable, and thus it shows that they really don't want to discuss it.

          The trick to dealing with this is to let them have what they require for their comfort, just speak your peace, maybe add a little explanation, let the ones who aren't upset by it understand it, then circle back at another date with a rephrased form of the point. Some of the rest will find the new sugar coating acceptable and be able to digest, leaving you with a smaller percentage who still don't get it. You have to get through to them by stages.

          The Olympic village story is great. But what it proves, is that women use accomplishment as a measure of who to fuck, and men do not. It does not prove that men do not use accomplishment as a measure of who to wife.

          And going to that as a refutation without examining how it plays out for relationships is an excellent sign that someone was looking for something to object to.

          Otherwise, you see, they would think about what happens if one of those fucks turns into a relationship. Imagine, for a moment, this statement:

          "Yeah, we hooked up during the Winter Games. We were gonna make it an exclusive thing, but then she got eliminated in the semi-finals and it just kind of killed it for me. Still, it was fun while it lasted."

          This will get a laugh out of any group of men, because they all know that none of them care whether a female athlete wins or not. And if you tell them that you just met a woman who thinks her husband married her because he was impressed by her PhD... they'll laugh themselves sick.

          So long as there are no women present.

          If there are, well, yes, of course I was very proud of you when you finished school, honey. I was very impressed by your achievement. Yes, it totally strengthens our marriage and makes me love and respect you more. No, I don't care if you still fit into your wedding dress, because I just love you for who you are. Hey, wanna come to the gym with me tomorrow?

          [–]Rian_StoneEndorsed Contributer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          gym with me tomorrow?

          heh, I've done this, it's as if you asked to stomp on puppies. to add to your post, it has definitely gone in stages, same as you've suggested, circle back at a later date stuff

          [–]RainySeasonInPH 0 points1 point  (4 children)

          I get where you're coming from. But the reality is, Arnold didn't marry the housekeeper. He married a Kennedy and fucked the housekeeper on the side.

          For a significant portion of high status men, the resume of their social partner does matter. Pretty sure most RPW are looking to be the wife, not the side girl.

          Depending on a woman's target, having a resume is a valid concern. I think that the correct formulation of the issue is, that most women miss that it's a passport, not bait.

          [–]WhisperTRP Founder[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

          Depending on a woman's target, having a resume is a valid concern. I think that the correct formulation of the issue is, that most women miss that it's a passport, not bait.

          You're sort of closer, there... but the passport is to his social circle, not to him.

          There's a lot to be learned from Arnold cheating on a Kennedy with a mediocre-looking housekeeper, but I don't think "be a Kennedy" is that lesson. Even if it were, I don't know how to teach women to be a Kennedy, and neither does anyone else.

          The important thing to remember is that, unless you are dealing with an arranged marriage (in which case why are you here?), men do not decide who to marry, they decide whether to marry her. It's a yes-no decision, and masculine achievements don't enter into it.

          [–]RainySeasonInPH 0 points1 point  (2 children)

          the passport is to his social circle, not to him

          Correct, but he exists in his social circle. Go where the fish are.

          I don't think "be a Kennedy" is that lesson

          It's not. The lesson is, don't be the housekeeper.

          That's not hard. It just involves work. Specifically, go to school, do something with yourself, don't be a fucking housekeeper...

          men do not decide who to marry, they decide whether to marry her

          this is rock solid, irrefutable

          masculine achievements don't enter into it.

          Hmm.

          No, but feminine achivements do.

          It's like with children. you don't care if they win, you care that they try. You care that they participate.

          No man in his right mind would care if she got a medal or not.

          But no man in his right mind would NOT care, that she was an Olympic athlete.

          Women have stong selection. The select men by if they're at the top of their class

          Men have weaker selection, but they still have selection. They select women by what class they're in.

          [–]WhisperTRP Founder[S] 12 points13 points  (1 child)

          Wait, I still don't quite get the gist of this. So men who date college educated women do so only because of the circumstances, not because it is an actual minimum requirement?

          Yes, you exactly get the gist of this. That is precisely it.

          College education is bare minimum these days.

          Nope.

          And why would a highly educated man not care?

          Because a highly educated man is still a man.

          Would they not want to have someone who is an intellectual equal? That they can actually talk to about their deepest interests?

          Yes, and yes. Absolutely.

          But he doesn't care if you have a college degree. That's not how he gauges your ability to do that.

          Women look at resumes. Men throw your resume directly into the garbage without reading it, and evaluate you in the interview.

          [–]LateralThinker133 Stars 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Would they not want to have someone who is an intellectual equal? That they can actually talk to about their deepest interests?

          College doesn't educate women unless they're in STEM. It indoctrinates them. A woman can educate herself without it. And a man will know if she's educated and intelligent the moment she opens her mouth.

          [–]Bluetinfoilhat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Neither sex ask do they want to fuck. Women also subconsciously see a man as handsome or not.

          [–]GingerDoughGirl 5 points6 points  (2 children)

          My fiance's entire friend circle are men around age 30 in STEM careers making six figures. They told him he was making a mistake marrying a woman with a lower education level and significantly less income potential than him. I went to a top ten women's college (with scholarships) but I just have a bachelors and work in child related helping professions that will never pay even a third of what my fiance makes. My fiance does not care and he admires the work I have done and what it says about my character. However, he is a definite minority among his peer group. His friends are all guys that would be considered high value men so I do not think the idea that men don't care holds up in a blue pill society.

          [–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (1 child)

          I recently dated a man who went to an Ivy League school and had parents working in government and international news. We had crazy chemistry and attraction and I could keep up in his conversations about politics on a baseline level. I'm also well-traveled, lived in four continents, speak three languages. I have a master's degree but in fine arts and I teach young children at a private school. Although he loved me for my chemistry, artistry and intellect, he went back to his ex girlfriend who 1) is a strategic consultant for some big firm and 2) had a father who is an Ivy League professor.

          Baseline chemistry and attraction is non-negotiable but in the end, background and SES matters for marriage.

          [–]GingerDoughGirl 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          My fiance said it matters that I went to the right school and came from the right kind of family background that his family would respect. I think if his family didn't approve of me it would have been a complete deal breaker. The social circle piece is easier to overlook because his family adores me. And, part of why his family likes us as a match is they approve of my family. His parents grilled me about my education, family history, and my parents careers during our first conversation. My fiance made the decision to propose only after his family's seal of approval. It just would not have been worth it to him to sign up for decades of awkward family holidays.

          [–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor 14 points15 points  (0 children)

          Fantastic post. Not much to add but simply a few examples;

          Woman leads with "I'm the Head of Department" "My students all aced their exams" "I schmoozed with the VIPs and got an invite to the gala" makes no difference in attraction.

          However: the following traits of work ethic, perseverance, social graces, taking action, helpfulness, participation - this is what is attractive long-term.

          You can still have an impressive resume AND be attractive, but the problem is women lead with their accomplishments. If you're going to be competitive at work, be sure to know how to turn if off and be cute in your personal life and not talk about work all the time. Men don't care about your job title, they care about who you are as a person and how you approach life.

          [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 10 points11 points  (4 children)

          I went to college for four years without finishing and then took a hiatus. When I started dating my husband he didn't realize I hadn't finished and we had this conversation:

          Me: Oh but I didn't finish. I took a break after four years to work and decide what made sense.

          Him: <pause>

          Me: do you like me less now?

          Him: no, it's the same amount of education. We'll send you to finish when I'm finished.

          Which is exactly what happened with a more practical degree at his insistence.

          One of the reasons men like youth is because it's raw material that they can shape how they want. My husband cares very much about my degree, because he's very proud of himself for getting me through it. It's a value add that I work and contribute. What it wasn't was a deal breaker or a necessity to initiate the relationship. For that I needed the raw material he was looking for (in this case intellect and some degree of conscientiousness) not the accomplishment.

          [–]_TheFantasticMrsFox_ 4 points5 points  (3 children)

          Can I ask, if it wasn’t a deal breaker or necessity, why his first reaction was to send you back to finish? The internet makes it hard to hear my genuine interest in the answer- I’m in no way trying to sound sassy or smart by asking.

          [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 4 points5 points  (0 children)

          It was a much longer discussion all together. My intention had always been to return to school after I decided what degree was most practical. I had started with a psych degree intending to ultimately do family and addiction counseling and realized after a few years that was not what I wanted to fill my life with.

          Neither of us was terribly interested in kids at that juncture so there was no reason not to complete the degree eventually. We were together for about 4 years before I returned and we were married before I finished. So even though he wanted me to have it, it was never a prerequisite for the relationship.

          The statement should be read "wasn't a necessity to initiate the relationship" with initiate being a key word. I do think he'd have been quite annoyed if I didn't complete the degree. At a certain point, it was part of his plan for us and once he had decided it was part of the plan, following through wasn't a choice. But I also think that he decided it was part of the plan because of what I said I wanted and the type of career I wanted. If I had a different idea for my life, he'd probably have created a different plan.

          My ex also didn't break up with me when I took the hiatus from school, though his parents were distressed and encouraged me not to. We broke up later for other reasons. Not having the degree weighed on my mind when I was dating but never prevented me from getting a second or third date (and I didn't meet anyone until my husband who I was interested in past that). I think it can be something in your favor but not something against you as long as everything else about you is good.

          There are probably men who use it as a short hand to make sure you have certain qualities. I suspect that if you demonstrate those qualities in other ways, the actual degree/job/whatever is way less important.

          [–]Guywithgirlwithabike2 Stars 5 points6 points  (1 child)

          I can answer that for you:

          It was a character test to see if she was worth marrying. She dropped out in her last semester the first time through, which was a major cause for concern if that lack of follow-through spilled over into other areas of life. Marriage wasn't even under consideration until she went back, and although we did elope before she graduated, at that point it was clear she would finish.

          u/Whisper is correct here that the actual degree was immaterial (for the most part - she finished with an economics degree, but started with a psych degree, which is part of your standard 'basic bitch' starter kit). It was the character traits that were demonstrated in the course of acquiring the degree.

          [–]_TheFantasticMrsFox_ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          Thank you both for answering! I always find these topics as interesting as they are tiresome (because this particular topic tends to just go round and round in a circle of “Yes they do” and “No they don’t” backed up with mostly anecdotal evidence) but I was genuinely interested in hearing your side of it.

          I think your comments sum up the gist of it though, that high value men want their partner to meet their expectation of a high value woman. For some engineers it’s finishing the degree- to show their wife has the tenacity and commitment to themselves to finish a four year undertaking. For some, it might not matter as much because they don’t see the degree as an amalgamation of those character traits but they might see those traits in other ways.

          Again, thanks for answering!

          [–]fosho_away 16 points17 points  (1 child)

          Also, of course men are incredibly attracted to 21 year olds, but many men actually, honestly, would not consider women of that age for marriage prospects, especially in some educated academic circles. So, if your pool of women is actually more like 25-32, having a nice degree or a business accomplishment is only a bonus and helps someone stand out. So yeah, it doesn’t make sense to lead with accomplishments, but some men do actually respect/desire them.

          I feel like people posting on this sub come from such a wide swath of regions/SES/etc that we find these sort of points of disagreement. A 27 yo Army Captain in Alabama will want something different than a 35 yo biomedical researcher in SF who will want something different than a 32 yo business mogul in Miami. To your point, I agree that the underlying characteristics matter most along with femininity etc, but not every man is looking to actually marry a 21 yo with no education, whether she can bake or is responsible or what. It would look bad in some circles and bore some men.

          At least in my own experience in a liberal urban area, I feel like I “broke through” to a higher level of men after finishing my M.S. No, they don’t care that much about the details, but I become more of a “catch” on their level, since my beauty/personality is still the same. And yes, I could have still landed an educated or successful guy, but it doesn’t hurt to be on their level just enough to please mom and dad and set a great example for the kids.

          [–]BewareTheOldMan 4 points5 points  (0 children)

          A huge part of your breakthrough/access to High-Level Men was the simple fact that your " beauty/personality is still the same."

          I can guarantee that if that were not the case, the fact you have a Master's Degree (in anything) would not even register to these men. The degree and intellect brings added value and worth - e.g. SMV + RMV = Access

          Not for nothing, but LOTS of women with degrees and nice careers dismiss these simple truths.

          [–]SirenOfScience 6 points7 points  (0 children)

          I think an important thing that is missing in this post is presentation. Some of the previous posts state annoyance when a woman starts off with "I've won XYZ awards" or "I got a PhD in XYZ or Law degree from Such and Such University" and these people can come off as a braggart. Personally, I don't bring up my education/career unless asked and usually guys will make bug eyes in shock at what I do. Some will joke, "Oh wow, so you're way smarter than me" to which I laugh and demur. I know that I'm smart in topics A-C but there are topics D-Z that others know a lot more about than I do. The more you know the more you realize you don't know, if that makes sense. So keeping humble can be a good thing.

          I think if you present yourself as a happy, kind, empathetic lady, you are less likely to get "dinged" for having a very high education or high-powered career. One of the best insights I got from a man were a few guys who said something along the lines, "Wow, you're pretty, kind, and smart!!". Although my intelligence was ranked third after my looks and personality, they still thought it was a plus.

          [–]cynicalhousewife 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          I believe this is why some men cat call women, or just act in a way that women find generally crass or creepy. It's because men would likely enjoy it if the coin flipped and women did the same to them.

          [–]ConservativelyRight 2 points3 points  (2 children)

          Thank you for writing this. I actually just made a post to this effect when a woman was advocating for same-class partnership with respect to the male's perspective, and I made the same point: the only reason you see a lot of same-class marriages is because people of the same class congregate together. Do not make the mistake of believing that, since a man was really only in a position to meet and connect with women in his career, that the man chose his current woman based on her career. Very important distinction.

          Another valuable point to consider is that there tends to be more higher-value women in the upper classes. But again, don't make the mistake of correlation without causation. Likely the reason these women pursue higher degrees and careers is because they come from families and environments that valued this behavior. I read another post on a different thread where it was outlined that children in the UMC are "expected" to have a bachelors at a minimum, and this is absolutely right (speaking as a child of the UMC). And I'd actually tack onto this that if the degree is not in engineering or accounting, respect will be lost if the individual does not pursue a graduate degree (PhD in the field, or a professional degree).

          In any case, the point I'm trying to make here is that UMC women are often higher quality due to their upbringing and environment, but they are NOT higher quality as a result of the degree they choose to pursue as a means to keep up with the expectations of their class. Again, a very important distinction. And just to be clear, I am only talking from the perspective of the average man. This does not mean there aren't a minority of men that need you to have a quality degree and career. It's merely a useful generalization when dealing with men.

          Thanks again for writing the article. Women need to get clear on this.

          [–]fosho_away 6 points7 points  (1 child)

          I would strongly disagree that men lose respect for a BA/BS outside of Engineering or Accounting unless she gets a Ph.D. What about business administration, social work, teaching, chemistry, public health...? They’re not the most prestigious but losing respect is a pretty strong statement. And what about MPH, MFT, and RN degrees? They all lead to fulfilling, stable careers.

          The more prestigious the better, but I don’t think either extreme end of the spectrum is necessarily the answer here.

          [–]ConservativelyRight 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          I would strongly disagree that men lose respect for a BA/BS outside of Engineering or Accounting unless she gets a Ph.D.

          We're in agreement, since that's not what I said. Here is what I said:

          ...children in the UMC are "expected" to have a bachelors at a minimum, and this is absolutely right (speaking as a child of the UMC). And I'd actually tack onto this that if the degree is not in engineering or accounting, respect will be lost if the individual does not pursue a graduate degree (PhD in the field, or a professional degree).

          So I was not speaking about men and their expectations on women. I was speaking specifically about the upper middle class (UMC) and its expectations on both the young men and women of that class. I didn't say it was right or good or the best way for people to think. I'm just talking about the collective class mindset. Generally speaking, it is less respectable in the UMC to obtain a degree that is not highly employable and does not have a starting salary of at least 50k, with upward mobility preferably to six figures within 5-10 years. You do any less than that and yes, you will have lost respect you otherwise would have if you did do a different degree with a different career path -- note: from the perspective of the UMC toward their youth. Not my perspective. Not "men as a conglomerate"s perspective. Just the UMC.

          As an aside, the UMC is defined as household income between $100k-350k. It is not particularly strange they would expect their children to live up to the bare minimum of what defines their current class standing. So this shouldn't be a particularly controversial statement. And again, to repeat, I'm only talking about the class mindset. Not talking about what's right or wrong or good or bad. This is just how the leadership (head of the families in the class) think.

          BusAdmin might cut it, might not, depending on if you can network into a solid corporate gig. SW, teaching, and chemistry are all considered subpar (again, unless there's a PhD involved with the chem). MPH and MFT are graduate degrees, and RN is a professional degree, so those are covered as respectable degrees in my initial statement. And again, I'm speaking from the UMC perspective. Not mine. Not "men"s. Just the UMC. As far as mine or mens' perspective in general is concerned, get whatever degree you want. It makes little difference as long as you are intelligent, loyal, feminine, and maternal. You don't even need to attend college if you are all of those things already.

          As far as what men want, re-read my post. It's strange you got this out of what I wrote. Maybe it was hard to read, I'm not sure. But my entire point of writing that was to agree with the OP (and you, if I'm taking your point correctly) that education level is largely irrelevant to men. The below portion of my statement demonstrates this:

          In any case, the point I'm trying to make here is that UMC women are often higher quality due to their upbringing and environment, but they are NOT higher quality as a result of the degree they choose to pursue as a means to keep up with the expectations of their class.

          If that doesn't show I don't think men are degree snobs, then I don't know what will. The main reason men end up with highly educated women is that similar careers and social classes mingle in the same circles. It's not that men are specifically seeking out women with higher class careers, as if that's what they want; they just happen to network with the same people, go to the same corporate events and parties, and live in the same posh, upper class areas. That's what OP was saying, and I am agreeing with that, as I've said it in another thread as well.

          [–]BewareTheOldMan 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          This is going to chap a lot of women, but the fact is that if a man wasn't present for the vast majority of a woman's "accomplishments" it means very little.

          I submit that if a High Value Man meets a very accomplished, smart, and highly intellectual woman...she still better be hot with a great body, a healthy and feminine look and demeanor, and have a friendly and loving personality. George Clooney and his wife (Amal) fit this description. Presumably, she is ALL those things and more...and she seems pretty happy as well.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo77E67IhlE

          Amal Clooney Tribute to George AFI 2018

          No need to harp on this ...but a very low N-Count, STD-free, and capable of producing healthy offspring can be added to the list.

          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          A 21 year old cannot meaningfully be evaluated by asking "Does she have a PhD in philosophy?", because no 21 year old does. A man who wishes to court her must find other ways of evaluating if she is intelligent enough to understand the world around her, a good conversationalist, and possessed of a sense of curiosity. He cannot simply ask "has she built a business from the ground up?" because she won't have done that, either... he must find other ways to evaluate if she resourceful, self-disciplined, and capable of sticking to a goal.

          Since we're all posting personal experience here, can confirm this in my own life. Knew the man I married for a year from work, dated him for roughly 2, married when I was 22 and he was 28. I'm know he judged me off my work ethic, I was in a situation where I was granted a job through connections and people did not like that at all. Despite doing the work well there was an undercurrent of resentment by my much older peers because of that, and it felt like for months they tried to break me. I did it though, because the money was great and I was self sufficient with bills to pay. Eventually that died down, but man...getting through that was a professional and political gauntlet. As it happens though I'm still friends with the the worst offenders who came to appreciate that I didn't crack. The only friends I had that he cared about were the ones I'd made through shared sports/interests and kept for many years. Sounds rough on the friends, but guess which friends are still around 15 years later? The same ones he cared to know back then. Though I was in school when we dated he cared about that only as much as I did. If it made me happy, cool. Things got "real" on that front when (his) baby rabies came into play and we had to hash some stuff out. He had some work ambitions realized and no intention of being a power couple like his parents were. It worked out very well, but it wasn't easy!