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DISCUSSIONAn "interesting woman with a brain." (self.RedPillWomen)

submitted by vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor

This post is inspired by a comment by u/pisellipod regarding men who claim they want an "interesting woman with a brain because they all have vaginas," but in reality they could care less about your accomplishments/degree.

That even though high value men look for a disciplined and educated women, those qualities don't help in the INTERACTION with him. It's the personality and pleasantry, and the ability to have fun and go along with the flow and be pliable that attracts him.

What men mean when they say this is:

1) Are you disciplined and smart enough to stay fit/slim, and if you did somehow gain a few pounds, are you smart enough to address the issue?

2) Are you smart enough to take charge if needed? For example, if he's busy working at home, there are no groceries and it's almost dinnertime, are you capable enough to either go out to the store by yourself and come back and cook, or at least decide on a restaurant and place an order for delivery without consulting him?

3) Are you level-headed enough that when you realize you're overanalyzing, your hamster is running, your emotions are out of control, that you can STFU or at least have the brains to be self-aware and try to make it better next time?

4) Are you interesting enough that you have some hobbies to rely on when you're bored, instead of relying on validation from other men? (Otherwise known as: How likely are you to cheat if you're bored?)

5) Are you smart enough to know what needs to be done around the house? e.g. If the dishes are clean, will you put them away or will you leave them there for days? If a shirt needs ironing, will you iron it or will you wear it wrinkled? If the toilet is stained, will you use bleach to clean it or will you pretend the stain is not there?

6) Do you have the brains to understand social customs? e.g. What kind of attire to the degree of formality, what topics not to discuss around certain company, can you contain yourself and have some fun but not get sloppy? Do you basically act like trash or are you respectful towards others?

7) Do you have the self control not to pressure him into doing anything?

8) Are you basically educated enough that you don't have to work a menial minimum wage job? (this applies to certain socioeconomic classes, for instance a man working in a managerial position or as a doctor might want a woman who works in STEM or education, not as a bartender or janitorial service)

9) Are you disciplined enough to put down your ego and listen to his suggestions if necessary? AKA: Can you be submissive when necessary?

10) Are you smart enough to deal or change your mistakes? e.g. You burned the meat one evening for dinner, are you able to learn from that mistake and cook for less amount of time? You accidentally wore heels during a walk around the park, are you able to learn that you should make sure what kind of activity you're going on and wear proper shoes next time?


[–]BlaueBlumeFreiheit 40 points41 points  (2 children)

I think genuine intelligence and the ability to converse with elegance are highly valued - as additional traits. As a means to show off.

[–]tempintheeastbayEndorsed Contributor 28 points29 points  (1 child)

Yes. Depends on the socio-economic class but men in the top 1% are not looking to see if you're smart enough to make dinner per se, they're looking to see if you can intelligently chat about politics, business, pop science and the latest Ted Talk over brunch. Because that's how they socialize and that's how someone fits into their life.

EDIT: to sound less snarky, didn't mean to

[–]TheTruePirate 11 points12 points  (0 children)

class but men in the top 1% are not looking to see if you're smart enough to make dinner, they're looking to see if you can intelligently chat about politics, business, pop science and the latest Ted Talk over brunch. Because that's how they socialize and that's how someone fits into their life.

Being 25 male I can't stress this enough, having amazing conversations about these type of topics is a must. New to RP had to cut a BP friendzoned relationship with a chick who's into pop science/self improvement. Pretty easy to develop oneitis when she's hot and smart.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 21 points22 points  (0 children)

This is an awesome post that would be really great sidebar reading!

8) Are you basically educated enough that you don't have to work a menial minimum wage job? (this applies to certain socioeconomic classes, for instance a man working in a managerial position or as a doctor might want a woman who works in STEM or education, not as a bartender or janitorial service)

I think this is particularly important point to RPW. If we believe the notion that women can date/marry up (which I do), then education (if you can do it) actually becomes pretty important for finding a mate.

A man's wife is a reflection of him. In many cases, you have to have enough smarts or education or a respectable job to keep up and be a good reflection. What is considered "enough" will depend on the man and his job & goals.

[–]FriendFrog 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I think "woman with a brain" could be phrased better as "woman with some self-control". I think it's really being impulsive & short-sighted that can make a women seem impossibly dumb.

[–]LateralThinker133 Stars 9 points10 points  (5 children)

regarding men who claim they want an "interesting woman with a brain because they all have vaginas," but in reality they could care less about your accomplishments/degree.

Small clarifier. Accomplishments/degree have NOTHING to do with intelligence. A man who wants intelligence wants intelligence, nothing more. This is a common false equivalence that trips up many women.

IMO, it's also a false equivalence that is hurting many women because they DO think the two are the same, and they spend a lot of vital years working on degree/career, when that ISN'T what men want.

[–]ChiNadesler 1 point2 points  (0 children)

True

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[deleted]

    [–]LateralThinker133 Stars 1 point2 points  (2 children)

    Basic red pill: women marry up. The more a woman pursues a career or education, the harder it will be to find a suitable mate because the smaller the pool of eligible men she is fishing in.

    The degree or career a woman has matters more to her than to a man she is dating. Most men want to provide for their women. A woman who is more accomplished/degreed than her mate is one who provides for him. This is often a cause for stress/strife and these relationships tend not to work in the long run.

    On the other hand, a gentleman likes to have a woman with whom he can converse. That doesn't require an advanced education; it just requires her to exercise her mental muscles, much like keeping in shape physically. These days higher education is more about credentialing/status and networking, and less about actual education. And that doesn't even get into the indoctrination and conformist brainwashing that happens in many colleges and which makes women much less attractive.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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      [–]LateralThinker133 Stars 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Why does anybody seek out those with similar backgrounds? Shared worldview and value system, presumably.

      [–]tempintheeastbayEndorsed Contributor 19 points20 points  (9 children)

      Fundamentally very sound.

      I want to share my particular perspective though. I feel this forum often underestimates how much value very well-educated, urban, liberal men are going to place on your intelligence and accomplishments. Not necessarily because it plays a role in their daily life but because a wife with minimum credentials has signaling value and won't fit into their social circle and usual life otherwise.

      I know you have 8) ("you don't have to work a menial minimum wage job?") up there but I just want to offer context on exactly HOW much is enough when it comes to my particular bubble.

      Most men I know (again, we're talking 20-40, urban, liberal, college-educated, very rarefied white collar coastal types) put much less priority on whether you can do things around the house or cook, simply because they have the resources to order out every night and get a cleaning service whenever they feel like it. The skills it takes to make THEIR house feel like a home are actually quite different.

      You need to be "interesting enough" not just to not cheat when you're bored (seems like a very low bar) but to actually engage him (and his friends! you must reflect well on him!). Their standards can be quite high, such as:

      -Have you travelled abroad, and to interesting or unusual places? -Did you attend a top 25 college? -Do you have what he considers sophisticated" taste in everything from home furnishings to dinner party themes? -Do you have the kinds of friends he's willing to spend time with and that he isn't embarrassed to expose his own friends to?

      [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 16 points17 points  (3 children)

      Well said.

      Related anecdote: In my dating days, I met a guy from the internets. He was just finishing a top tier law school, and had a pending offer from the biggest firms in the city. His profile/post set up a list of dichotomies like "I enjoy a 5 star meal one night and a dive bar the next". His intention (which we actually discussed) was to find a woman who fit in well in the upper echelons of his lifestyle, but also to weed out the women who were just interested for the money. He lamented that some women weren't even smart enough/aware enough to realize that's what he was doing and wrote him expressing how they like all the finer things in life.

      Too often RP claims that education and intelligence are unimportant for women. You've outlined so well why this claim should not be taken as the universal opinion of all men.

      [–][deleted]  (2 children)

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        [–]tempintheeastbayEndorsed Contributor 9 points10 points  (1 child)

        Gosh, that rubs me the wrong way about TRP too. My education, career and intellect also bring me tons of joy, and not just that - they enable me to do helpful and useful and valuable things for other people.

        I think sometimes the discussion conflates 2 VERY DIFFERENT questions:

        -What is the value of your career to YOU?

        and

        -What is the value of your career when it comes to securing early romantic interest from potential straight male partners

        [–]kranos33 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        Do you realise that in the TRP there are a lot of guys that haven't gone to college, or have any kind of real career? Of course the education of the woman wont be important, as long as she cooks and cleans, and is hot, or whatever....

        The truth is that all high value people want a classy girl that is down to earth at the same time. Cooking: take out, blue apron, whatever else is covered. Cleaning? I have a maid service, twice a month. Laundry, Flycleaners and other wash and fold services (the come at your door and deliver at your door).

        Any guy that makes 150k+ has these areas covered (all my friends fit in this bracket). They all care about how intelligent the girl is, is she motivated, does she have a real career, etc... nobody wants to date a lazy slob (there are plenty of women, that are lazy in life, but the only one thing they do well is being pretty). Smart guys can see right through that, and usually those girls are used for some fun, and eventually droped.

        Also, guys hate the girls that act "classy", but are not down to earth. They usually are money loving high maintenance primadonas, with high narcissism levels, and make for poor long term mates. They get dropped fast as well by smart guys.

        My suggestion: Take care of your career well, and your looks at the same time, and be easy going/down to earth.

        [–]hitlerallyliteral 5 points6 points  (3 children)

        You value your own intelligence insofar as your husband can use it to 'signal' to his friends?

        [–]tempintheeastbayEndorsed Contributor 11 points12 points  (2 children)

        No, I value my own intelligence insofar as it makes me who I am, and allows me to make the largest possible positive impact on the world.

        My BF values my intelligence insofar as it makes me the woman he loves, and insofar as it makes me a good fit for his life (i.e. his interests, goals, and how he likes to spend his time).

        Men I casually dated in the past did value my intelligence as a way to signal to their friends, sure. Or more accurately, had I been less intelligent it would have been a negative signal, and a social inconvenience, so they were happy that wasn't an issue.

        We're talking about vetting, not true love.

        [–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

        Intelligence definitely makes you who you are - because it's the way you think about life, the things that interest you, and it's those qualities that allow you to contribute to the relationship. It only backfires if you think ONLY having those qualities helps you in a relationship, because it really comes down to the pleasantry and personality.

        [–]tempintheeastbayEndorsed Contributor 3 points4 points  (0 children)

        Yes. Intelligence is not enough. Are you kind? Are you warm? Do you choose to use your intelligence to lift up those around you, or to condescend?

        [–]md8716 6 points7 points  (1 child)

        When it comes to the marriage/LTR dance, social class matters.

        For the guy, having a wife that is able to blend into his culture/social class is a huge asset personally and professionally. You can cultivate friendships and network with people (some of them powerful and influential) knowing that your wife can deliver a great impression and bolster your reputation. Personally, the guy's family and close friends will hold him in high regard if she can charm them and relate to them.

        This is obviously culture dependent. A good ole boy oil exec from Houston probably isn't going to go for the same girl as a suntanning gluten free crosfitting liberal doctor from LA, even if they are both upper class.

        RPW as a sub seems to skew toward desiring suburban upper middle class professional men.

        [–]tempintheeastbayEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        Very accurate observation - that's what I was trying to convey. This sub definitely skews towards a specific demo. Fundamental truths manifest themselves differently sometimes!

        [–]durtykneesEndorsed Contributor 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        IMO, this is an overcomplicated take on something much more simple:

        What men want in a woman:

        1. Hot --- in other words: best of health, so you look good no matter your age, or your natural shape and proportions.

        2. Fun --- not just being interesting/funny/charming, but also knowing how to avoid problems in the first place, so there's more "fun" and less "problems to solve". Fun can also mean giving him more options in life (to open more metaphorical "doors" for him, or support him in a way where he says "I couldn't have done this without you").

        To be "hot and fun", your intelligence, education, social skills/status/etc all can help, but they are also useless if you don't know how to convert that to "hot and fun". I think this is what RP articles mean when they say education/etc isn't something men look for.

        Different people find different things "fun", so it's also a matter of compatibility.

        [–]Inlo21 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        I feel like it really depends on what kind of man you are looking for. As soemeone who grew up in a upper class, international envoronnment i can say that uneducated women are given the side eye. Our moms don't work but they all have masters degree because being a housekeeper in that lind of environnment is different : are you well traveled enough to be able to talk to our different interna tional acquaintances without being offensive ? Preferably in your guests mother tongue ? Will you be able to chose pristine furniture for the house ? Can you talk about art, politics and history while we are socializing with my intellectual friends ? When we'll have kids will you be able to coach them in order to get them into elite universities ? should i find myself in a situation where I can't work, will you have the capacity to somewhat maintain our lifstyle or at least prevent us from falling hard ? Also intelligence is partly genetic if you're smart you know that so you don't want to dumb down your descendance by marrying some airehead.A diploma also shows you have the same socioecoonomic background which lowers the chances of you being there just for his wealth. And also, you being capable of cooking or cleaning is a plus but not vital as you'll probably have people take care of that for you.

        [–]Shukakun 2 points3 points  (2 children)

        I'm not female, I just come over here from trp for some reading every now and then. But I think I have a good analogy for this.

        To me, an intelligent girl who is both able and interested in discussing all kinds of topics is definitely a plus. But if she lacks more important traits (isn't cute, is overweight, refuses to be led), intelligence is not going to save her.

        It's kind of like having a barber who shares hobbies with you. Sure, I'd love to have a barber who will have passionate in-depth conversations about psychology with me as he cuts my hair. But I'd much rather have a barber that is 20% better at his job and won't shut up about fashion for even one second.

        So yes, intelligence is definitely attractive, and a plus. But I'm afraid the really cute airhead will probably always be more appealing than the obese clever girl.

        [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (1 child)

        It's not either/or (either beauty or intelligence) which is often the way that feminism treats it. It's both/and - some men want both beauty and intelligence.

        [–]Shukakun 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        Agree. Intelligence is a big turn-on and a great addition to a girl's personality. It's hardly a replacement for beauty though, I'm afraid.

        [–]CcyCV 5 points6 points  (7 children)

        I believe this is what used to be called “well bred”. There’s still some cultural place for that in Mexico, for which I am thankful :)

        [–]SouthernAthenaEndorsed Contributor 5 points6 points  (6 children)

        this is what used to be called "well bred"

        Exactly. A decent woman (which was the majority) had to be refined and competent enough that she could function socially, as a wife, and as a mother with some sense of grace. This took training and practice, not degrees and high IQ.

        [–]MightyNerdyCrafty 2 points3 points  (5 children)

        Where can one obtain such training (and practice, with constructive criticism!) outside of a finishing school?

        [–]teaandtalk4 Stars 3 points4 points  (3 children)

        Getting constructive criticism is hard. The best way, I've found (and I am in no way an expert) is to cultivate the taste and understanding that you can be your own critic. To do that, you need to watch the women who do this, and see how they do it, what works, what doesn't, what 'air' they give off. Then, you can apply those things to your own practice, and you'll be able to evaluate your own progress (with the occasional feedback from others, usually unprompted) to keep yourself on the right path.

        [–]MightyNerdyCrafty 1 point2 points  (2 children)

        Thank you.

        Unfortunately, I live in an area where people are...wilder (in the bad way!) than I'd like. My best ladylike ladybuds have both moved up the coast, to different, smaller conurbations and, alas, are closer (geographically, if not by circumstance) to eachother than to me. I would follow, but matters have me tied to this area.

        I suppose it now all comes down to 'appropriately feminine hobbies' like sewing and community involvement to find a suitable set of women to imprint from?

        What other hobbies would be suitable?

        Now to also find a place that teaches ladies carving and other woodworking - long cherished dabble-hobbies of mine!

        [–]teaandtalk4 Stars 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        They don't have to be real women, necessarily. There are many fictional characters that you can emulate, while you're searching for more ladies IRL.

        Where have I found lovely traditional women? Churches and political groups, mostly.

        [–]CcyCV 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        It’s different since I’m from Mexico, but there are plenty of comic representations of this, which are spot on none the less. I’d start by reading Jane Austen nd Little Women, and paying attention to the attitudes the heroines mock. Trying to be as beautiful as possible always, but specially when receiving visits? Check. Cultivating small talk and looking up material to read on the topics that the beau is interested in, but not too much because “it’s boring”? Check.

        I’d basically summarize it as being nice, helpfull, good looking, and not trying to compete with the man. There’s a downside to this too, in that a lot of the time the best examples of “well bred girls” are shallow, vapid and uninteresting. It’s curious how Jane Austen is recently been portrayed as an early feminist, by showing strong character women as her heroines. I suggest focusing on what makes them “weak” and not what makes them strong, because those ”strengths” end up becoming shrewdness in our day and time. I’m still working on this but I thankfully have many real life examples to analyze

        [–]SouthernAthenaEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Good question! Well, these days it's a pretty DIY endeavor. Read the sidebar here, look at Miss Manners letters (especially under etiquette and ethics), take care that your appearance is presentable and your posture is good, make sure you don't curse in public and say things like "please" and "thank you."

        I don't really know of a place you can get official training. Usually experience with grandma (or someone else's grandma) is good training, simply by watching how they act, since these women come from a time when manners and etiquette were still actively cultivated.

        [–]mrpthrowa 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        This is truly an excellent list. I love 1) , 3) and 4).

        What men mean when they say this is:

        It should be noted that there are still a lot of blue pill men as well as women who are deluded into thinking they want a controlling career woman with three degrees, a 6 figure earning job and 50 hour work weeks, then wonder why their relationship doesn't work.

        [–]sitkafog 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Thank you for breaking this down for me. This made perfect sense. Bookmarking it for future reference.

        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

        [removed]

        [–]LaceandsilksModerator | Lace[M] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

        Be polite or be quiet.