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RELATIONSHIPSSex and intimacy, intimacy and sex. (self.RedPillWomen)

submitted by loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor

"No sex, no love" - "No love, no sex".

This is perhaps the most stereotypical stalemate around. Husband and wife sitting back to back on the bed. He says he needs more sex to love, she says she needs more love to have sex. So who's right?

I personally don't care who's right so I won't attempt to answer that question. Why don't I care who's right? Because it doesn't matter. It doesn't help the marriage when one of the two are deemed to be right on this issue. What absolutely does matter is the stalemate caused by this vicious cycle that someone needs to break. It is on this that I will focus today, within a marriage as well as dating. Let's begin.

What is sex?

Well, I'll assume that most of us know what sex is. For the purpose of this discussion, I will consider anything sexual within the realm of sex.

Sex has many levels. Sex in it's ultimate state is fully naked, penetrative, finishing insider her, kind of sex. This is called intercourse. There's non penetrative sex which some like to call outer-course. There's non orgasm sexual gestures, touches and flirtations of all kinds. All this is part and parcel of human sexuality.

What is intimacy?

Intimacy is a deep connection you have with another person. In a previous post, I explained the difference between the intimacy of friendship vs sexual intimacy. Just like there are various levels of sexual contact, so too, there are various levels of intimate connections.

It is the hope and dream of many people to have a sexually and intimately fulfilling relationship with their spouse. The only question is what comes first, the chicken or the egg?

Men and women - sex and intimacy

Men and women tend to approach this topic from opposite directions. While it's true that some men may fit better with the description of women that I'm about to describe and some women may fit better with the description of men, the descriptions which I will describe here speak about the majority which are what can be considered masculine and feminine character traits even though masculine women and feminine men do exist.

In life in general and sex/intimacy in particular, the masculine way is to see a picture first and then focus in on the details. To see the forest first and then the trees etc. The feminine way is to see the details first and build up to the picture, to see the trees first and then realize there's a forest. This often happens within a split second and isn't always noticeable. Neither approach is right or wrong, they're just different.

When it comes to sex and intimacy, this works in the same manner. For a man, it all starts with full on penetrative sex and from there it trickles down into all the smaller details. The more quality/quantity of sexual activity, the more love, kindness, patience, caring and attention to all the little details he will be motivated to engage in. For a man, sex leads to intimacy.

(Of course, I don't speak here about people who have one way relationships. I speak only about relationships where both parties sincerely wish to invest 100%)

For a woman, it's the opposite. You start with the small gestures and connections and build your way up all the way to the big thing. Many women need an emotional connection to have sex at all, even more women will have difficulties maintaining full sexuality if there is a lack in intimacy. For a woman, intimacy leads to sex.

How to break/avoid the stalemate in dating and marriage

Dating first - in dating, the female approach needs to be taken. What do I mean by this?

When dating a person for the purpose of building a home, a family and a life together, you must establish a certain level of intimacy way before you take off your pants. It's utterly crucial to work your way up from the smallest intimate connections all the way up to eventually having sex when your relationship is already solid and you're both firmly committed to one another. This method of starting from the small things and working your way up, is the female way as mentioned above. Doing this the male way would mean sex on the first date and we all know how good that is for a LTR....

In marriage, it's the opposite. Most of the time. When he complains about not enough sex, what he may be really saying is this - "I really want to be very intimately and deeply connected to you, but I need sex to make that happen". This may sound ludicrous to many women but it's true nonetheless. Many women will counter with - "what does that even mean?!?!? You need to have sex to have an emotional connection? I need an emotional connection to be interested in sex!!!" While this is true from her perspective, it won't help him nor will it change his perspective. Yelling at him or pointing out how wrong his perspective is will only alienate him further. This will likely cause him to withdraw and no one wins.

Truth remains that he needs frequent and meaningful sex to maintain his deep intimate connection with you. It isn't only about sex. If it was, he would have never married you, he'd have stuck with pump and dump girls. He married you because he needs something more than just sex. He needs intimacy. He obtains intimacy through sex, but the sex is just the first step for him even if it's the last step for you. He starts at the top and comes down from sex to all the smaller forms of intimacy, she starts at the bottom and ascends up from small intimacy all the way to sex.

Within a marriage, each person needs to continuously invest 100%. In this case - he needs to continuously invest in the little connections and she needs to continuously invest in the bigger, sexual connections. It may be just as challenging for him to keep his engagement in the little connections on the up and up as it is for her to keep her sexual connections on the up and up. If you and your SO are never challenged with any of this, good for you. If you are (sometimes) challenged with any of this, read on.

What happens when life happens and things get out of sync. One day you wake up and he's not happy with the quantity or quality of sex. She counters that she doesn't feel intimately connected. How do you break the stalemate? Contrary to dating where it's crucial to start with the female way, here, in marriage, it's crucial to start with the male way. This means starting with an increase in quantity and quality of sex, thus allowing the intimacy to follow. If done with an open mind and an open heart, you will succeed!. Here's why....

  • Sex is more quantifiable than intimacy. If you want things to change, the more you can quantify, the better.

  • When you begin with sex, you covered something big. The result will be a big increase in the bigger elements of intimacy even if the smaller elements will take more time. OTOH when you begin with the small elements and work up to sex, it may take a really long time to get anywhere meaningful. This can lead to burnout.

  • Being sexually active often leads to an increase in sexual desire. It's a win win. OTOH investing more in intimacy without the sex can come at an emotional cost. The more he invests (as making the first move to break the cycle), the more he's likely to resent.

  • If she has responsive desire, it's a good idea to allow him to turn her on. Again, it's a win win.

Conclusion

We try not to be tit for tat in our marriages but there's a point where we will all begin to feel that we're investing a lot and receiving very little in return. This point is toxic.

A man will feel used when he invests too much emotionally and it's never enough to get her in the mood for sex.

A woman will feel used if she invests too much in sex and doesn't receive the emotional connection she craves.

The way to break the vicious cycle is to begin with a higher frequency and quality of sex. Why, is explained above.

Cheers!


[–]mrscross 18 points19 points  (1 child)

Awesome post. You're exactly right. I've noticed that when things get out of whack, taking the time to have sex gets us both happier and we're more connected. It took me the first 5 years of my marriage to realize it but the last couple years have been so much happier because of it.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Thank you.

[–]CleburnCO 10 points11 points  (1 child)

The best advice I ever got on married sex is to say yes. If at all possible, say yes. Your partner is committed to you and only you. They have nowhere else to go and they are coming to you for affection. Rejection in that realm can be crushing.

Motivation is relative. Sometimes there is motivation, then action. Sometimes, there is action...and then motivation.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That advice is a bit simplistic. It's more than just saying yes, it's also about desire and an intimate connection which won't happen if it's just "saying yes".

But I get what you're saying and thank you for your input.

[–]Lilviscious 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Even though I'm not married, I can relate to the post when taking in perspective that my sexual drive is less active than my SO's. At first that was a bit tough on me, because as mentioned I need the women approach to be ready to have sex and that wasn't always what my SO wanted to do without losing sexual interest himself. So I have decided that if he does need sex and I am not quite ready on the spot to make that happen, I do tell him so while offering him perhaps a non-penetrative way. I have noticed that this is less pressuring on me and does give basically the same result he wanted to begin with, making it a great plan B for when his sexual drive kind of surprises me and there's no desire to take the women approach.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Exactly.

I understand from you that he usually is interested in warming you up first. Most guys are up for this challenge. What becomes frustrating is when there's endless hoops to jump through.

When the female way begins in the bedroom and means that the man has to sufficiently warm up his woman prior to penetration, most men will take the time, effort and patience. It's when it's an undefined connection that's impossible to achieve that will cause him to lose interest.

What you're doing is wonderful because it's a great way to meet in the middle when you aren't up for sex but he needs it.

[–]eyebellel 5 points6 points  (3 children)

This was a great post and 100% true. I think, what I personally struggle with, is to get to the point where doing it the "male" way is actually enjoyable. My libido is much lower than my SO's, and that makes sex difficult because he's ready to go and I'm just not there. I find is so difficult to just get to the sex. My brain isn't there. Although, there are also other extenuating factors that are contributing to our near dead bedroom.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 3 points4 points  (2 children)

You raise a good point which I didn't cover in the post - how to have sex itself.

Although I suggest doing things the male way, that's only in terms of sex leading to intimacy. However, sex itself needs to follow the female way. It is only like this that balance is achieved.

The male penis can go from flaccid to fully erect in a matter of seconds. It can then be stimulated to the point of ejaculation in a few short minutes. The female vagina doesn't work that way. Buildup is needed through foreplay.

When a sexual session begins, it's the man who needs to defer to the female way, taking as much time as she needs to be properly warmed up. He needs plenty of patience and care to achieve this. (Unless it's supposed to be a quickie). Ultimately, he will be way more fulfilled from the investment of care into thoroughly warming up his wife.

Your brain doesn't need to be "there" from the getgo. Take your time, have him slow down and get there slowly. There's no rush (unless there is).

A quickie is something you'd be doing for his benefit with not so much in it for you. This is when he needs release and you can't at the moment (for whatever reason) enter a full on session. These are good to have as a side dish on the menu, but are terrible as a main course. Having quickies as the main thing is like eating coleslaw for dinner....

Perhaps this can help you with your bedroom.

[–]eyebellel 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Yes, he is good about that. He (mostly) really takes the time to warm me up in the "female" way. I get very in my head and my thoughts. As with many relationship challenges, there're are multiple factors at play. Thank you for your thoughtful response!

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're welcome

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Fantastic! I love the way you broke everything down into super-readable blocks and it's very easy to understand. I believe this is the problem in 90% of marriages.

it won't help him nor will it change his perspective. Yelling at him or pointing out how wrong his perspective is will only alienate him further. This will likely cause him to withdraw and no one wins.

You mean shaming a man isn't good for our intimacy or his self esteem??!

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Fantastic! I love the way you broke everything down into super readable blocks and it's very easy to understand.

Thank you! I write this way for this very reason. I'm happy it worked.

You mean shaming a man isn't good for our intimacy or his self esteem??!

Lol!

I know. It sounds ridiculous when it's said out loud like that, but so many people do exactly that... it's self destructive to say the least.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Most of my BP thinking sounded ridiculous once it was pointed out to me.

[–][deleted]  (8 children)

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[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 2 points3 points  (7 children)

Whoa....

Look, I write a post and the readers of this sub decide whether they like it or not. In this case, it got quite a few upvotes and the mods decided to pin it to the top. This to me is an indication of the post being liked. If you don't like my post, no problem, you don't have to like it. But you also don't need to get so worked up over it. You can argue the points you disagree with without personal attack.

You're reading way too much into my handle and flair...

And you even take issue with "cheers". I don't understand what your problem is. Seriously. You have an issue with me being cheery?

[–][deleted]  (6 children)

[removed]

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 1 point2 points  (5 children)

    You're more than welcome to disagree and discuss whatever you'd like. Those who "know" me around reddit know that I welcome disagreement and argument of the ideas. If you don't like what I have to say, explain why you disagree. No need for personal attacks. As much as I welcome counterarguments of the points raised, I don't welcome personal attacks. If you engage in it as you have, I don't feel compelled to answer them.

    I just looked up RPW and started to read your post and was like "wow, this is terrible" so I wrote why.

    This is bullshit. You didn't just look up RPW, you've been here before. I remembere because you explained your name as being someone who likes to sprinkle pewp around people's posts.

    You also didn't explain why you disagree. You went on a rant/personal attack.

    I still don't see what your issue is with "cheers". What's the matter? You're trying to fit me into a box that isn't British? I still don't see what's so terrible about being cheery. Yes, when I say cheers at the end it's to raise my glass and toast the completion of my post. It's a lighthearted thing. You're reading deep stuff into it that simply isn't there.

    Sex, relationships and interpersonal connections in general are topics that always interested me. I post and comment on topics that interest me. Again, you're reading way too much into things here.

    Most of the time, I post from personal experience. The rest of the time it's from the experience of others. This is what people like about my posts and comments. If that's bullshit to you, so be it.

    [–][deleted]  (4 children)

    [removed]

      [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

      I've been quite open about what goes on between me and my wife, right here on RPW. It isn't what you're saying at all, but that doesn't matter because again - this isn't about me. If you want to argue the point, I'm up for that. You go on and on about what happens in my bedroom. This is irrelevant to this post. When it's relevant, I don't hide it and I'm quite open about it, but it isn't relevant here.

      [–][deleted]  (2 children)

      [removed]

        [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        Wow... you really don't have anything better to do with your life... you accuse me of spending all day on reddit, something that's obviously not true, when it's you who spends all day here arguing with people.

        I'm not sure whether you're simply stupid or what else may be your issue but you obviously can't pick up on basic context. You put together a string of quotes from me without getting into the content of what those quotes were responding to. You also don't know which of those things happened when. You refuse to recognize that these are all things I learned from and became a better person as a result.

        You also seem to assume that my wife's ailments aren't legitimate. I can understand why you'd think so based on the most superficial reading of a few online comments, but you really don't know her or me. You also don't know my children and can't assume what they know or don't know.

        Bottom line is that I learn from things in life and grow as a person. The correct answer isn't always to throw away and start again. You need to learn how to read some context and to difrenchiate between things that are current and things that are lessons from the past.