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DISCUSSIONSeems like betas make better partners (self.RedPillWomen)

submitted by [deleted]

From everything I have read on TRP, it seems like betas make better partners for long term, marriage, fathers, more family oriented, will be more likely to care for their woman, be more caring, affectionate, etc.

And the guys on TRP treat the whole beta thing like it’s bad. Nobody wants to bring an asshole (alpha) home to mom. Maybe sluts and good-for-nothing women are good for alphas, but a woman who wants a meaningful relationship from a man who cares should go for betas.

Just from everything I’ve read, alphas don’t seem like they’d make good partners.


[–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children)

FYI on the topic: Here is an old thread on the topic pay particular attention to the endorsed contributors or moderators. An evo psych perspective - take note of u/FleetingWish's critique of the post as well (top comment). And from the sidebar

[–]aftertheafter-party2 Star 27 points28 points  (0 children)

This post called "Vetting for Alpha and Beta traits: Selecting the right mix for stable commitment" has good info on this topic: https://www.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/4yrobj/vetting_a_man_part_3_alpha_and_beta_traits/?st=jflisfvs&sh=1442f86c

I accidentally got banned in TRP (didn't follow the posting rules) when I tried to say my husband was not Alpha, & the guys there were like... ok, but your husband is NOT Beta -- & I agree. He is a good mix w/ all the Green Flags listed in that post I linked above.

People are complicated, not just A or B, but a mix. Similarly, I'm not "all" feminine -- I have masculine energy too. I use it to do things like clean the bathtub (my least favorite chore) or sort my paperwork or buy plane tickets. My husband has feminine energy that he uses to be nurturing & sweet toward loved ones or cuddle up to me or tell me how he is feeling about a situation or enjoy the smell of nice cup of coffee.

[–]kittxxn2 Star 51 points52 points  (9 children)

I think many of the men on TRP have misinterpreted what it means to be alpha. They have experienced a culture that tells them their masculinity is “toxic” in a society that treats them unfairly in court, where they’re told to be more like women, emasculated and effeminate.

TRP represents a pendulum swing past true “alpha” due to resentment of the world they’ve experienced. True alpha men are wonderful fathers and husbands, and would do anything for their families, even give their life.

I could never marry a beta. I need a man who will lead me confidently and strongly, a man who I can count on for my life and to teach my boys how to be good strong upright men. A man who will stand tall with his shoulders back against the weight of the world and face the storm of life and never leave my side. True betas are harmless, which is why many women marry them - they’re safe. I would rather have a dangerous man who knows how to control his strength than one who is harmless.

Many men on TRP are justified in fearing women and marriage because many women today would not be worth the risk. If I was a man, it would take one hell of a woman to convince me she’d be worth it. If you’re a woman in the US in 2018 you have the power to marry a man, divorce him, get his house his car a paycheck for the rest of his life and WORST of all his children.

We shouldn’t look down on alphas, pseudo alphas, betas, or any mix of all. We should approach them empathetically, with grace, gentleness, and understanding. Show them what a woman looks like - they may have never seen one before. They’ve been berated all their lives for an immutable characteristic, their manhood. In most men, all it takes is a good kind woman to cultivate his masculinity to the peak of his capability, in the famous beauty and the beast archetype.

[–]LateralThinker133 Stars 2 points3 points  (1 child)

TRP represents a pendulum swing past true “alpha” due to resentment of the world they’ve experienced. True alpha men are wonderful fathers and husbands, and would do anything for their families, even give their life.

IMO the mistake that TRP commits is to overemphasize how to be an Alpha without commitment (spin plates). That's great for getting laid but is not a long-term happiness guide for the majority of men, especially older men. There's a reason TRP skews young.

What RPW are looking for are men with alpha traits (Captains) who are willing to commit. Similar but very different.

[–]kittxxn2 Star 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I absolutely agree. However, it’s not their responsibility to change. I see it as my responsibility to show my man that I am worth committing to. A man in his natural state is driven to have sex with as many women as possible, there is no evolutionary “downside” to doing so. But for the right women, these men would give up the rest to ensure their children with this woman have the highest chance of survival and thriving. A good marriage is absolutely the way to obtain long lasting happiness and fulfillment, but there are a lot of men out there trapped in contracts with insufferable emasculating wives - that’s quite the opposite of happiness.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (3 children)

I’m not going to be kind to a person that literally talks down to me on the internet, lumping me with sleazy women, telling me my intentions are not true and that all women are the same. If you wanna be bitter, be bitter, but don’t take it out on us good women. (I got picked on in TRP for asking about getting to know someone before sex)

I wish I could talk to these people in real life, face to face, because I bet you they wouldn’t be so rude and disrespectful to a woman face to face. If a kind person could actually sit down with these people, talk to them, give them some encouragement, give them some hope, I think they’d be much better. They would feel better. I would love to help these sad people out and help them heal. I have been told before that I would make a great counselor.. I know what it’s like to be burned by the opposite sex. I know how damaging it can be when someone uses you for money (guys do this to girls, too). When it seems like someone doesn’t really like you for you, they just want something out of you. I’ve been there. I could work with these sad guys but they just have to be willing to open their hearts and accept help.

[–]DelicateDevelopment 3 points4 points  (2 children)

I wish I could talk to these people in real life, face to face,

They wouldn't talk to you because the only thing some of them seem to able in conflict situations is soft or hard next. After reading here the last days, I really wonder how much TRP the one has read whom I was dating in the last months. It makes me feel very uneasy, since I have actually been trusting him. And it starts to be so obvious that he's just "soft nexting" as soon as I am not playing by his rules. If these guys think that this is leadership then they have a hard and long way to go and many broken hearts on their way.

I think AWALT captures some truth in the sense that in many ways women are similar, but that certainly doesn't mean that one cannot communicate with us or that we would immediately betafy a guy who is caring about our feelings and needs. They want sex and think they have the right to demand it, while at the same time they think that women have zero right to have emotionally rewarding interactions.

The problem is that "soft-next" and "hard-next" seem to have found entry in mainstream dating culture. I notice more and more people acting like that. It just hits at the weakest part in the chain, which is usually the one who loves. The misinterpret that not being weak doesn't mean to act controlling and dominating. It were only acceptable at the same time they would also care about the traces that they leave in the other, but they don't.

I will stop reading in TRP or askTRP because it is basically destroying the good picture of men that I developed and I am really thankful that hardly anybody in my direct environment thinks or acts like that.

It even doesn't have anything to do with being alpha. Maybe being alpha might give somebody the possibility of having sex with many women, but having sex with many women doesn't make anybody alpha.

[–]theoppositeopinion1 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Reading TRP or askTRP is like taking testosterone. Can be extraordinarily beneficial for men, but it's extremely bad for women.

It's medicine. It looks and tastes like poison, and to many it is, but it has surprising effects when taken correctly.

[–]LateralThinker133 Stars 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I like this analogy. And it's quite literal, too - if you're a man and you follow TRP, your testosterone will increase, if for no other reason than you'll likely eat better and start lifting.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 47 points48 points  (2 children)

Absolutely! Betas do make better long term partners, fathers and members of the community. If it were purely up to men, we'd all be betas and live happily ever after.

The problem is that women get booooooored with betas. Women don't want to have sex with betas. Women walk all over betas.

The problem (for women) with alphas is that alphas will pump and dump dozens of women without becoming attached to any of them. Alphas will treat women badly. Alphas will use women for sex and nothing more. They're the players who women profess to hate, but flock to anyway.

The core of this issue is the destructive nature of female sexuality. A man can't win. If he's beta, she'll get bored and won't want to have sex with him. If he's alpha, he'll have to go against his nature to learn how to mistreat women, he'll also have to forgo on LTR's and family.

The solution a man can implement within the context of family is to implement some alpha traits. To learn to say no and put his foot down etc (and much more).

The main solution with regards to family is in the hands of the woman. To keep sex alive and passionate, to be pleasant to him, to be devoted to him and all that's discussed here regularly. Do that and he'll want to be yours forever. Sure, that's beta, but that's what you want in a marriage. Beta doesn't equal bad and alpha doesn't equal good. Both character traits have ups and downs.

[–]LateralThinker133 Stars 10 points11 points  (0 children)

If he's alpha, he'll have to go against his nature to learn how to mistreat women

No no no.

Jesus, everybody seems to think that alphas must mistreat women to be alphas. NO. Just no. This isn't what alpha means. It means nothing more or less than not letting a woman's nature override your actions. To "keep frame".

An alpha knows how to defeat a woman's shit tests (where she is trying to see if he can maintain control over her and the relationship). A beta caves in and dries her desire up for him, encouraging her to be more and more of a bitch/scold to him until he either grows a spine or becomes a rug.

An alpha knows when to be kind to a woman, and when to ignore her emotional outbursts/attempts at manipulations. A beta bends to them. There's a reason TRP teaches stoicism.

An alpha knows to never beg for sex, but will instead make her want it. He will never beg for it, rarely ask, and often will just expect/demand/take it, because he comes from a position of abundance. A beta will beg/plead/buy it, and will consequently not get it or will get it less and less.

NOWHERE in here does the alpha mistreat the woman. He treats her precisely how she needs treating in order to control her hypergamy, to prevent branch swinging, to keep her aroused and interested. He never harms her, and he gives her exactly what she needs. A beta does not.

In short, an alpha knows what a woman needs and gives it to her, while a beta gives her what she says she wants but what she really hates, and she doesn't even know that that is the problem.

[–]Guywithgirlwithabike2 Stars 7 points8 points  (4 children)

This post needs to be archived. It's an excellent object lesson on bitter entitlement.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m saving it for a future college paper. Lol.

[–][deleted]  (2 children)

[deleted]

    [–]Guywithgirlwithabike2 Stars 3 points4 points  (1 child)

    I have no idea what point you are trying to argue. Your comment is vague and all over the place.

    [–]WhatIsThisAccountFor3 Star 11 points12 points  (57 children)

    Men and women need to come to the realization of TRP through very different methods, and the men's method is usually very shocking to most people.

    The difference is because men are un-learning what they have been taught their whole lives by their mothers, girls around them, and media. Go to a romantic film? The guy is always a beta orbiter that hangs around until she finally makes up her mind to be with him. Ask any of his girl friends "Why am I still single?" She'll say "Just be yourself, be nice, and be patient. you'll find the right girl". Ask your mother? She'll say "treat her like a queen. All women deserve to be respected". Then they go back to reality where they see the drug dealer in their high school who MIGHT be getting straight D's if he's lucky, banging all the cheerleaders and hottest girls. He's an asshole, he's not nice, he doesn't respect women (and probably objectifies them), he doesn't really have anything going for him, yet the same girls that told you to be the nice guy are dropping their panties for this actual loser. And why is this happening? Because he's assertive, strong willed, and doesn't give a shit what other people think of him. He's an alpha.

    This realization causes a lot of rage and resentment in men. They feel like they have been lied to and need to essentially un-learn everything regarding relationships and romantic interaction that they have learned in the past. They need something that is borderline brainwashing, and that is where TRP comes in. Think of TRP as an emotional boot camp, not therapy. We have seen for all eternity that men respond well to harsh reality (through the army, sports, anything else male dominated). You need to be overly critical. You need to be borderline ridiculous with what you say to men, because they like that shit, and they respond to that shit.

    For women though, it's very different. Women are not taught their whole lives that "nice guys are what you should go for. if a man treat you poorly dump him". Women are taught essentially "Get a man with a good job who wants kids", but there is nothing that actually reflects what the woman should do. Everything in media promotes that as long as a woman is pretty, she just has to exist and things will work out relationship wise (which is not all that far from the truth). However, if a woman asks her mother what she should do to attract men, most will say "Learn to cook, don't get fat". If she asks her male friends, they'll tell her the truth and say something like "be hot, give good blowjobs, cook", if they ask their girlfriends it's very often "You have to give good blowjobs to keep men" or "Men like when you dress KINDA slutty, but not TOO slutty", or "Men like to be in charge. so let them" something along those lines. And the main difference here is that women usually come to a realization that they don't like the men around them (pr at least not the men that they think they should like), not that men don't like them as a woman. So it's an eye opener into their own mentality, not an eye opener into someone else's mentality.

    Women don't have to un-learn anything. Women were never lied to by men, women just have to learn to accept that men and the people around them were actually telling them the truth. There is no bursting through a sea of lies and deceit. There is no resentment against men because they forced her to act incorrectly her whole life. If anything the resentment and disdain is toward herself for denying what she was told since she was old enough to be in a relationship.

    Men and women just have to come to TRP in different ways.

    TLDR: Men have been lied to (or ignorantly misinformed) by women their whole lives, so TRP is very resentment and anguish fueled. Women have been just ignoring men's advice their whole lives, so there is not much resentment or anguish to fuel, just regret.

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (32 children)

    That’s really weird, I wasn’t raised that way, and I actually know of lots of gentlemen types out there. My mom keeps telling me to hold out for a gentleman like my dad and to not settle for less. She tells me to be a good girl and to not sleep around. Dressing even a little bit slutty is not okay, I’ve been taught that showing off so much is not okay. I have mini heart attacks when I see how some young women dress these days (especially here in CA).

    I have never liked assholes, other women who like them just don’t know what they want. They’re immature. Women should go after men that bring them roses and chocolate, that care for their mental illness (most women have some form of it), and that care for their well-being. My first bf was an asshole, he acted like a nice person at first, but as time went on, I was pretty miserable. He was using me for money, using my mom for money, trying to give all of my nice things to his family, he stole from me a lot. My mom paid him $300 to move a large piece of furniture from her house to costco, she told him to spend it on me, and he did not. He spent it on himself. So my mom never did that again and was urging me to leave him. I was very depressed and felt stuck, until a friend talked to me and gave me the courage to break up with him. His response was crying and taking a baseball bat and breaking all of the outdoor solar lights that I bought and put into the front yard. So yeah I mean I would really rather prefer a kind man, with a heart of gold, that his shit together and will be very caring towards me. I’ve grown up and see things for how they are. A kind alpha (who my father was) is a much better alternative and the best option for a mate.

    [–]WhatIsThisAccountFor3 Star 4 points5 points  (31 children)

    I have never liked assholes, other women who like them just don’t know what they want

    .

    My first bf was an asshole, he acted like a nice person at first, but as time went on, I was pretty miserable.

    The second is all men see. This is an extremely common thing with women outside of TRP. They say they want X but actually go for Y. Men don’t see what you’d prefer, they see what you choose.

    You chose an asshole, and that’s what they see. It doesn’t matter what you want, it matters what you do.

    [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 4 points5 points  (2 children)

    I just have to jump in here. I enjoy assholes. It's one of my husbands more amusing traits. Asshole often just means that he is confident and a bit selfish. The confidence is sexy. Getting attention from these men is great validation, after all they are primarily focused on themselves and their own desires.

    Plus when you are with someone who is a mature asshole, you get included in that umbrella of selfishness.

    I'm not saying stay with a guy who would take a baseball bat to...well anything...but TRP isn't wrong in their assessment of what women are attracted to....and though they aren't speaking up, I know a few other posters who have similar views as mine.

    [–]WhatIsThisAccountFor3 Star 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Honestly I believe it's because any average looking woman can have a plethora of men willing to praise them and give them affection. With how readily available that type of relationship is, it becomes less valuable. I think most women want to have to prove themselves. They want men to be honest. They want to feel like they've earned someone special.

    It's similar to men and "the chase". Men want to feel like they got something no other man could. Women feel that same way about assholes. It's the thought "He's rude to everyone, but he's nice to me. I must be special to him". It's ironic, but being mean actually shows how much they care more than being nice does.

    The reasoning behind desire is not something that most people can readily understand since a lot of it is subconscious. So no one can really blame women for claiming they want a nice person, because who doesn't want people to be nice to them? But it's just incorrect, and most women are unable to dig to the deeper meaning of their attraction in order to come to this realization.

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (27 children)

    I also did break up with said asshole once I finally had enough of being treated like garbage. Now I know what I want and I am patiently staying celibate and single until the right one comes along.

    [–]WhatIsThisAccountFor3 Star 1 point2 points  (26 children)

    single until the right one comes along.

    Didn't you say in your previous post that you know plenty of kind caring men. What about any of them since them being kind and being a gentleman is your main priority? Why don't any of them cause interest?

    Also, your previous comment said that your mother taught you chastity, modesty and respect. These are all good tactics to attract and keep men. My point is not necessarily the exact context of the message, it's whether the message is true or false. For women (outside of the blue piull career focused mindset) the message is almost always true. For men, the message is borderline unanimously false, unless you talk to a man that gets women, and not women themselves.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (25 children)

    Distance. I know nice, cool, upstanding men, but they all live hours away or in another state. My biggest problem is my location, which is a big reason I am in no hurry to find a "captain" as these people would call it. I keep in touch with them through facebook but at the moment they are just friends. If I lived near one of them, that would be a different story.

    [–]WhatIsThisAccountFor3 Star 3 points4 points  (24 children)

    I have to be honest with you here, but there is no possible way that there is not a nice man within the state of California for you. There is probably a nice man within your neighborhood who would be happy to take you out (provided you are decent looking).

    Nice men are literally everywhere. There are significantly more nice men than there are not-nice men.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (23 children)

    Nah not in my neighborhood. I live in a very small town and I know of everyone, there is just old people and teenagers here. People without jobs and on welfare. I'm not interested in that. I live in the high desert in a very rural area, the closest city would be Lancaster/Palmdale or the antelope valley. I go to school there, it is a 45 minute drive. There could very well be someone there, but most guys don't like to make the drive out to me. And almost all of the guys at my college are not really my type (check out "hick-hop" artist Upchurch the Redneck and some guy named Adam Calhoun, I really like those beefy right leaning guys that wear patriotic clothing). I have tried tinder and other online dating platforms, but I deleted all of that after failed attempts with guys and just not finding someone that I really like. The hispanic and black population here is too high, I generally prefer white men. The cool guys I met that I am friends with on facebook, I met through the job in alaska. There probably is someone nice in CA, however I have yet to meet someone. Like I said I am in no hurry. I could very easily have any guy take me out, I look great, but I choose not to. I am very picky, once I find someone that I am physically attracted to, then I have to figure out if we both share common interests. I am attending a gun show that is coming up, maybe I will come across a good guy there. I really like southern men, but there are not many here in my area.

    [–]glitterchild 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    Hahah I gotta agree with you there! The antelope valley sucks as far as quality of guys. (LA girl here) but you’re not far from Edwards AFB. There are probably tons of guys that are your type there.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Yeah my mom has a friend who works there and we told her to keep on the lookout for a nice airman, but we haven’t heard anything back yet. She wants to make sure that the guy is nice.

    The problem with young airmen is that they bring girls to their barracks all of the time and just wanna have sex.

    [–]WhatIsThisAccountFor3 Star 0 points1 point  (20 children)

    And almost all of the guys at my college are not really my type (check out "hick-hop" artist Upchurch the Redneck and some guy named Adam Calhoun, I really like those beefy right leaning guys that wear patriotic clothing)

    .

    The hispanic and black population here is too high, I generally prefer white men.

    .

    I really like southern men, but there are not many here in my area.

    Here is the root of your problem. You have a pretty specific type. You like specifically white guys with tattoos who are country, patriotic, and spend a lot of time in the gym. I sincerely doubt that you care how nice said guy is if he looks like either of the people you pointed out. Also, most people who have tattoos like these guys, and act like these guys' personas are not interested in having respectable careers. If you're looking for guys who are career and family minded along with all of these other traits, oh lord you are going to have the most difficult time possible finding anyone. I sincerely hope you are young and gorgeous if this is what you're looking for, because men like this don't exist really anywhere.

    My advice is move to Texas, and don't expect a promising career mindset in a man.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (13 children)

    Tats are not neccessary and that is just a generalization, I have turned down hot guys for being mean dudes. I like nerdy looking guys too. It just depends. Being fit is very important, I exercise and I stay active, I would expect my SO to be the same.

    I have been told to move to Texas as well. Maybe one day when I get money, but I am also interested in the southern states including Florida.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    I don't like tattoos. I don't have any myself. I just meant beefy (or pudgy) white guys who are patriotic. Lol.

    Main reason for the beef or pudge is because I am skinny myself, I dated a skinny guy, and I could not cuddle with him properly at all. I LOVE cuddling, so when I can't cuddle, that's a super awful thing. Skinny on skinny is like falling asleep on a pile of TV remotes.

    My friend is dating a patriotic white guy and he treats her really well. She has a baby that is not his, yet he cares for that baby and her. He runs a family business. I don't know why you would assume white patriotic men don't make good partners.

    Even my own dad was very patriotic himself.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

    Sounds like a passive aggressive insult to all old fashioned American men out there.

    You looked at their tattoos and assumed "oh she wants a guy with tattoos" lol. No. I like men who love their country. I do not specifically like public figures such as upchurch and calhoun, that is not what I am searching for in a partner. I like their style and look. There are plenty of men who want what is best for this country that don't have tattoos, that are not public figures, it is a way of thought and lifestyle. I want a guy who will proudly put up an american flag in the front yard and have the same values as I do.

    Old fashioned southern men are very polite and are generally good people. "If you are looking for guys that are career and family minded" so family oriented men are not white, not in shape, and don't love their country. Ok.

    [–]DelicateDevelopment 0 points1 point  (23 children)

    It is just that if one is a person who is trusting and loving these "tactics" can have desastrous consequences. It is essentially breaking the character of girls that have nothing to do with what mothers told their sons.

    I fully agree that there is a lot going wrong, but many women have been bluepilled in the same ways as men.

    And yes, there is plenty of resentment in me due to my experiences with men and last but not least my misogynist father who was spinning plates already before he met my mother and while and after and so on and who leaves out zero opportunity to verbally leash out on me whenever he feels that I act a little bit too confident.

    I just decide consciously that nobody is responsible for my experiences in the past and try to encounter every new person as open and free as I am able to.

    The only reason for this is that I do not want to punish people for things others have done to me.

    Any truly dedicated and loving women will break over these tactics if they are applied by the man with whom she fell in love.

    These tactics will only work on the weak ones, they are not working on the predators, because predators will just move on, dngf and search for an easier victim.

    [–]WhatIsThisAccountFor3 Star 1 point2 points  (22 children)

    It is essentially breaking the character of girls that have nothing to do with what mothers told their sons.

    I disagree entirely. TRP does not teach men who already get women how to treat them afterward, TRP teaches men who have been ignored by women how not to be ignored by women.

    The men that TRP creates are men that you would have never even noticed if not for TRP. It is not your boyfriend that is learning new "tactics" for how to keep you in line. It's that one friend who you always knew wanted more, but never cared about so just strung him along. Those are the people who TRP draws in. They are not breaking your character, they learning how to appeal to your character.

    I fully agree that there is a lot going wrong, but many women have been bluepilled in the same ways as men.

    Not in the same way. Women who are told things like "career minded women are strong" are never told anything about men. If anything they are told "You don't need a man to be happy". You decide whether that is true or not.

    Men are not treated this way. Men are treated in the sense that everyone gives them advice on how to make a woman happy, then the women who tell these men how to make them happy, end up being happy with men who exercise the exact opposite of what they claim.

    Blue Pill doesn't lie to women. Blue Pill just tries to teach women that men are not important, which is an entirely different issue, but when it comes down to it, it is one that the woman can choose not to believe. Men can't really choose not to believe that women don't care how nice you are, they have to go through countless cases of trial and error only to figure out they have been lied to.

    I just decide consciously that nobody is responsible for my experiences in the past and try to encounter every new person as open and free as I am able to.

    This is because you are able to have experiences with new people. What so many women simply don't understand is that unless you are something special as a man, you are not able to experience relationships with around 90% of available women. Women still have the choice regardless of how they act (as long as they are relatively attractive). Men need to go through an entire transformation. They need a radical reason to make a radical change. Women need a moderate reason to make a moderate change.

    The only reason for this is that I do not want to punish people for things others have done to me.

    I don't know if you think men of TRP want to punish women, but that is not the goal. TRP just teaches men what women actually want, and how to get them. It has nothing to do with punishment of women, it has everything to do with the education of men.

    [–]DelicateDevelopment 0 points1 point  (6 children)

    It's that one friend who you always knew wanted more, but never cared about so just strung him along.

    Which I never did. Never. Once I was meeting someone he was among my friends on fb and I asked publicly whether one of my friends could help me out. We were friends due to a small party of close friends and he was the brother of one of them and I hadn't met him before. We all had an amazing evening with each other a lot of laughing and deep conversations. I really was curious to meet him again. So when he offered to help I though that it were a great opportunity to get to know him better. After we finished I bought pizza and beer for us and it would have been the moment to actually start having a nice evening with each other. So I was shocked when he started to complain about the fact that he was waiting for weeks already for me to contact him and that now he was there and wants to know if we can get to know each other better. So in this moment it was clearly over. However, despite the stress it put on me, I wanted him to understand that the moment in the kitchen with beer and pizza was exactly the moment that he was asking for. We were talking for hours and I tried my best to pass the message that a) I didn't know that he was waiting and that he could have reached out if he were interested b) that I was interested in him up to that moment when he started to complain and nag.

    He continued to ask whether we could get to know each other. I clearly stated no. He threw tantrums, angrily walked out of the kitchen saying that he would leave and when he saw that I didn't hold him back he returned sitting down at the table again.

    I tried to remain calm and friendly, explain things to him by trying not to make him feel bad about himself.

    I do not know whether what I did was correct. But I tried to be sincere with somebody who was obviously completely lost. I didn't "next".

    [–]WhatIsThisAccountFor3 Star 0 points1 point  (3 children)

    So I was shocked when he started to complain about the fact that he was waiting for weeks already for me to contact him and that now he was there and wants to know if we can get to know each other better. So in this moment it was clearly over.

    I am confused. Why did this end it for you?

    This whole story seems very... misplaced almost? I don't really understand where the bad part is here other than after you turned him down already for a very strange reason. When have you ever had someone react positively to rejection?

    If you think that people are supposed to act positively to being rejected then no type of lifestyle or theory will ever make you happy.

    [–]DelicateDevelopment 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    I said, that I do not know if it was correct, to try to explain but he didn't want to leave and I didn't want to throw him out and he wanted to know why so I explained. Maybe I should have just told him to leave, but that would have seemed absurd to me. He started to explain to me that he was in love with one girl once who never got clear on him, so this was why he wanted clarity from the beginning and he just overdid and it just became very clear in that moment that there were many complications ahead and things to be sorted out. I do not remember the exact words, but I know that I felt like I am dealing with a child and this was when I realized that maybe we could be friends but certainly never anything more and if I had not been so clear in my "no" he would have remained hopeful and have felt "played" again.

    It seems misplaced, because probably it is. I never "strung" people along, because I am clear in my messages. I end contact if I see that someone has more interest. And I was using it as an example of how I think one can try to react in such a situation while actually dealing with the other person as a human being that deserves honesty and sincerity, just because it gives the other person something that he can learn from and grow. I remember that those moments when people have been sincerely trying to pass their message are the ones that helped me most in understanding the effect my actions have on others and I am thankful to those people who did it, while nexting and breaking communication or ignoring did never help to understand anything. If one loves one will obey but it is obeying, thus breaking, not giving in, not dedication, not submission.

    I was reading too much in TRP and askTRP today and it seems that I cannot handle it very well. Sorry. Because much of what I read there have been things that I had either consciously or unconsciously happening on me and it is incredibly painful.

    And it makes me hopeless, that it will ever be possible to have a meaningful and open friendly relationship that is based on trust and mutually caring. If people do not learn how to communicate their needs in a respectful way then I fear that it will lead to exactly the misunderstandings that make many relationships a nightmare.

    [–]DelicateDevelopment 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    It ended it in the sense that I lost interest because I had met him once, no flirting, no private moments, all in group of friends and then we were facebook friends for several weeks if not even months. So we were sitting in the kitchen, eating pizza and drinking beer, small-talking and he suddenly, completely unexpected started to complain about the fact that he was waiting for me for a long time, now he has offered help and he still doesn't know whether we will get to know each other or not and that he just wants to know. This just seemed off, completely. There hadn't been any intimacy, nor anything personal, it was the first evening we spent with each other and it was the moment of getting to know each other, we had pizza, we had beer, we were talking and could just see if we will have further connection. But basically he was forcing me to make a decision before we started to get to know each other better, before I actually knew, whether we would still get along with each other as well as we did in the group of friends and then he was even using the "I did that for you now I deserve to know". So really, this cannot be the base for anything. We were strangers, met once before, and he acted as if I had violated some contract. I could have answered his question at the end of the evening, not at the beginning.

    [–]LateralThinker133 Stars 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    So I was shocked when he started to complain about the fact that he was waiting for weeks already for me to contact him and that now he was there and wants to know if we can get to know each other better. So in this moment it was clearly over.

    No kidding it was over. Beta orbitter who refuses to make his desire known, protests that you aren't reading his mind and taking action to create a relationship with him? F that.

    I tried my best to pass the message that a) I didn't know that he was waiting and that he could have reached out if he were interested b) that I was interested in him up to that moment when he started to complain and nag.

    You did right. This guy is acting like the classical "Nice Guy" with nice guy entitlement. You shut it down, were kind, and then when he acted like a little bitch, you walked away. He went from "why won't you date me" to almost a "I deserve to be dated by you, how dare you reject me". Serious loser.

    [–]DelicateDevelopment 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    It has nothing to do with punishment of women, it has everything to do with the education of men.

    I completely understand. I know that something certainly is needed. But this education produces collateral emotional damage on others and yes I have read the post were it is argued that less aggressive approaches didn't work.

    But since I do not know that other approach, I also do not know on whether I personally agree that "lack of aggression" is what was making it unsuccessful.

    But anyway... it is your group, your space. Apart from that I actually do not want to make my problems an issue in these threads.

    The following quote describes quite well the way I think: "Regarding an idea, it never matters what it is supposed to achieve, but what it legitimates. Because only what it legitimates is real, what it wants to achieve is not". Bela Hamvas, Byzanz

    [–]WhatIsThisAccountFor3 Star 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    But this education produces collateral emotional damage on others

    On the men or on women?

    I also do not know on whether I personally agree that "lack of aggression" is what was making it unsuccessful.

    So from what I understand, you are saying that you think there should be another way that doesn't rely on rage and anguish?

    I think you are still mis understanding if this is what you are saying. TRP is not rage and aguish fueled because it teaches men that they need to be rageful and filled with anguish and resentment, it is rage and anguish fueled because men are at a point of rage and anguish when they seek out TRP.

    It is not something that causes them to be rageful and filled with resentment. It is someplace where men who are already filled with rage and resentment go.

    [–]DelicateDevelopment 0 points1 point  (11 children)

    Let me try again with a calmer mind...

    I disagree entirely. TRP does not teach men who already get women how to treat them afterward, TRP teaches men who have been ignored by women how not to be ignored by women.

    They don't stop after being in a relationship. Some of them even project the hatred on the women with whom they have just had sex, throwing around wild accusations that are based on interpretations instead of content. Met one personally and it was just so weird, because everything he said about me could not have been further from the truth. But after arriving at RP I can see where that was coming from. So what they scream out here collectively was screamed out on me and it was impossible to counter all these accusations even though I tried.

    They are not breaking your character, they learning how to appeal to your character.

    I will just take the "you" personal, as I believe you were speaking to me and were not using it in a general way. No men ever appealed to me because he was demanding or expecting sex. Feeling and seeing desire of course is attractive. But demanding? Deserving? Who deserves sex if he doesn't treat me well and if I don't feel comfortable and safe with that person? "Soft-nexting" is the best way to make me not want to have sex the next time, not because I were not attracted but because I don't know if I can trust that person. One "soft-next" will require a lot of effort from the side of the guy to make me open up again and show myself vulnerable. And this just sets stage for escalation of that spiral. Consciousness appeals to me, shit tests only work when they are played in an open conscious humorous way, when it is clear that it is a friendly challenge.

    Not in the same way. Women who are told things like "career minded women are strong" are never told anything about men. If anything they are told "You don't need a man to be happy". You decide whether that is true or not.

    We are told more. We are told that we are not allowed to be happy with being a wife or a family alone. We are told that we have to be successful as men in order to be a valuable partner. We are told that we have to be as ambitious as you. We are told that we have to be successful and sexy even if we come home after a hard work day. After 10 hours out, we need soft places as well and we want to be soft places as well. But we do not have the energy anymore. We are told that we have to have sex with the same attitude men have.

    It is not the same, but it is equally damaging. It is fragmenting all of our souls. We are as little allowed to be women as you apparently are allowed to be men. We have zero role models. Zero as in zero. While you at least have Marlboro man and other macho like figures. We are robbed of everything feminine and supposed to compensate that with nothing else than our looks, while we all know that we will turn old at some point. It feeds consumerism. Just imagine the losses of the beauty industry if women were happily baking cake at home and feeling valued for caring about their husband. We all, you and us, have been robbed of meaning.

    So it is different, yes, but not less evil. We face the same problems. Loss of identity and empty promises.

    Men are not treated this way. Men are treated in the sense that everyone gives them advice on how to make a woman happy, then the women who tell these men how to make them happy, end up being happy with men who exercise the exact opposite of what they claim.

    What if women want to make men happy, but are told that they are not allowed to? Do you know that it takes away our deepest desire? That on which we strive that which makes us happy? What if women are told that men will hate them if they act to dependent and don't show them who actually "rules" the house? While in fact they just want someone that gives them enough freedom such that they can create happiness? What if society tells you that if you want this as a women you must be insane, because how could you be so stupid and wish yourself back into slavery and that you will see what you get for it if you do? He will leave as soon as you are 40 with some younger chick, because all you have to give him is beauty?

    Blue Pill doesn't lie to women. Blue Pill just tries to teach women that men are not important, which is an entirely different issue, but when it comes down to it, it is one that the woman can choose not to believe. Men can't really choose not to believe that women don't care how nice you are, they have to go through countless cases of trial and error only to figure out they have been lied to.

    It lies to both of us. It tells both of us that we are not allowed to be who we are and what we want to be. Women do not have the freedom of choice anymore to decide which way they want to take and yet everybody is still supposed to be married and life happily ever after, without anyone really knowing how. It is this confusion that has these disastrous consequences for all of us.

    This is because you are able to have experiences with new people.

    What so many women simply don't understand is that unless you are something special as a man, you are not able to experience relationships with around 90% of available women. Women still have the choice regardless of how they act (as long as they are relatively attractive). Men need to go through an entire transformation. They need a radical reason to make a radical change. Women need a moderate reason to make a moderate change.

    That I really do not know and I also don't understand, yes. But I accept that this is apparently how it is for some if not many. To give you the other side of the experience, do you know how incredibly painful it is if apparently it is impossible to be good friend and relaxed with a guy - I don't mean touching, I really react allergic to that if it is not my boyfriend - because irrespective of being married, your boss, your physician, or just a good friend they will always sooner or later try to have sex with you? It is not that they fall in love, that I would understand, that happens, no they just want easy sex, and if you don't comply the get angry and aggressive?

    You see it as being in a privileged position, but it is not only privileged. Being single, is like being a rabbit thrown into a cage of wolves, this is how it feels. So it is constant and daily threat vs. constant and daily starvation. I wouldn't know which one to choose. But if I talk to other women it also seems that most women do not have this experience in that way and they are in fact as happy as you if they find "one" who wants them.

    I don't know if you think men of TRP want to punish women, but that is not the goal. TRP just teaches men what women actually want, and how to get them. It has nothing to do with punishment of women, it has everything to do with the education of men.

    I know that this is not the goal. But if we give in and give you sex, as you desire, and we don't insist on commitment because it is so normal that after few dates sex has to happen and before commitment is even thinkable, then how is being "nexted" as soon as we get emotional, or being played along Machiavellian principles using our deepest fears going to change anything about our lost connection? It leaves us feeling used. We gave what we are able to give in such a situation while we get nothing in return? Not even a friend-like explanation or relation that could help us to learn from our mistakes, instead it is "next"? Like sex is nothing? If somebody signals that you, your sex, your emotions do not matter to him, how is one supposed to trust and allow to being lead? I understand that sometimes it happens, but this is what I feel TRP feeds without being necessary.

    As I tried to explain above, there are women who suffer from this situation as much as you do, just in a different way. Many do not realize it now and now being able to leave and work oneself certainly has the advantage that nobody needs to stay in a place anymore where he or she feels unhappy. Apart from that they/we are as unhappy and lost as you, but we also have lost our guidance. We, you and us, need to learn to communicate better. The needs will inevitably rise, if communicated better and with a solid base of understanding about male vs. female natures everything will be much easier for everyone.

    It is the same insanity that makes us act irrationally and crazy or apathetic. But most of us are not conscious about it, yet. It is not entitlement, it is fear... So my personal opinion is that we suffer from the same, but in a different way. What seems evident to you, your suffering, is not evident to us and vice versae. It is like one of us is holding bread and the other water. Each being envious of the other and anxious that he might be taken away that last tiny bit. This is what is so dangerous. We all starve so much from the meaninglessness that we just fight each other.

    So I do not know if rage and aguish are needed. I really don't. It might be just my personal BP that communication is possible. Even though I have succeeded in communicating, many times I have also failed as often if not more.

    [–]WhatIsThisAccountFor3 Star 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    Initially I saw this and I honestly didn't want to read it because it's so long, but you seem to be expressing genuine sincerity here Judging from the first couple paragraphs. I am not going to reply to everything because that is just too much, but here goes.

    We have zero role models. Zero as in zero.

    I haven't really thought of this point. I still think the reasoning is very different, and I still think rage for women coming to TRP is an irrational response while it is rational for men, but I see where you're coming from.

    The difference between men and women here though, is that women are told things about themselves that are false, men are told things about women that are false. When women ask men about men, men respond truthfully, when men ask women about women, women respond (possibly unknowingly) untruthfully. Both feel upset toward the people that lie to them, but the difference is that women don't feel resentment toward men as a result of the lies. Men aren't the ones lying to them. If anything men are the ones being truthful with them while women are lying to them. Just different sides of the same coin I suppose.

    What if society tells you that if you want this as a women you must be insane, because how could you be so stupid and wish yourself back into slavery and that you will see what you get for it if you do? He will leave as soon as you are 40 with some younger chick, because all you have to give him is beauty?

    Again, good points. But it comes back to my initial point that men are not the ones telling you this. It's all women. No man is going to sit you down and say "I just love women who are in charge, fat, demanding, shrill, and powerful." So unfortunately, again if any rage is felt it's toward other women, not toward men, You may feel rage toward specific men who lied to you about their feelings or something, but for the general feeling of a lack of purpose as a woman, men are not to blame for that. It's all blue pilled women.

    No men ever appealed to me because he was demanding or expecting sex.

    TRP men don't expect or demand sex, but if they don't get sex after X amount of time they have learned to leave. You can blame a multitude of outside sources for this, but men don't want to waste time either. If a man pours 2-3 months into a woman being patient, and she decides that she doesn't want anything to happen, he's wasted 2-3 months that he could have spent pursuing some woman who would actually have sex with him. Dating for men is expensive in both money and time. Most men don't like actual dates. Men don't like chick flicks or ice skating. They don't like paying for two meals or buying flowers. It's all for women. And if a man can't even get sex in return for all of that effort, time and money he's put into dating you, it just feels absolutely terrible. You feel used and played with like a toy or some kind of ATM. As a woman when this happens, at least you know he was sexually attracted to you enough to take you out and have sex with you. As a man, you are left to essentially debate whether she even cared whether it was you in the seat across from her, or whether she just wanted to get out and get a free meal.

    But if I talk to other women it also seems that most women do not have this experience in that way and they are in fact as happy as you if they find "one" who wants them.

    I am confused by this part. What experience are you saying women don't have?

    But if we give in and give you sex, as you desire, and we don't insist on commitment because it is so normal that after few dates sex has to happen and before commitment is even thinkable, then how is being "nexted" as soon as we get emotional, or being played along Machiavellian principles using our deepest fears going to change anything about our lost connection? It leaves us feeling used. We gave what we are able to give in such a situation while we get nothing in return? Not even a friend-like explanation or relation that could help us to learn from our mistakes, instead it is "next"? Like sex is nothing? If somebody signals that you, your sex, your emotions do not matter to him, how is one supposed to trust and allow to being lead? I understand that sometimes it happens, but this is what I feel TRP feeds without being necessary.

    I understand the feeling here, but it is not a coincidence that men who have previously never been in a position to do this, find themselves in this position after TRP. You are still looking at this from a "I can't believe men don't care about us" perspective. Really every man who finds TRP used to care about you, and he figured out after a certain amount of time: it doesn't matter how much he cares about you if he can't get you to care about him. A lot of TRP is not necessarily rage against women because "women are stupid terrible and untrustworthy". It's rage against women because men want to care for you, we want to protect you, and you constantly go with men who hurt you. So we become the men who hurt you. Not because we want to, but because it works. I'm sure there have been plenty of men in your past who you just "didn't click with" or some other metaphore for lack of attraction. Then there are men who you did click with who ended up hurting you. It's not a coincidence that you click with men that hurt you. Women are attracted to these qualities. You could go find a nice guy any point in any day, but you probably would never have sex with him.

    That is TRP in a nutshell. You can either be a great guy, be super nice and have loads of female friends, or you can be an alpha and sleep with those women who would never sleep with you before. You can either agonize over why she'll never see you as more than a friend, or you can cause her to agonize over why she can't get you to see her as more than a FWB.

    TRP is not a group of men who hate women, it is a group of men who feel lied to, and figure out that if they stop believing those lies, they can get you to care about them. Unfortunately, for a man to be an alpha and have women be attracted to him, he generally needs to posses qualities that will inevitably hurt women. If you were attracted to actual nice guys, this wouldn't be an issue. But you aren't attracted to actual nice guys.

    If women actually cared about how much a man cares about them, and not how much his alpha traits make her lady bits tingle, TRP would not exist.

    [–]LateralThinker133 Stars 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    TRP is not a group of men who hate women, it is a group of men who feelhave discovered they're being lied to, and figure out that if they stop believing those lies, they can get you to care about sleep with them (at the very least).

    FTFY

    [–]LateralThinker133 Stars 0 points1 point  (6 children)

    They don't stop after being in a relationship. Some of them even project the hatred on the women with whom they have just had sex, throwing around wild accusations that are based on interpretations instead of content.

    RP men don't hate women, though this is a common BP criticism. They just acknowledge women's nature in unflattering terms (i.e. realistic, honest, and brutally truthful) and how to interact with that nature in order to promote men's sexual success.

    One "soft-next" will require a lot of effort from the side of the guy to make me open up again and show myself vulnerable. And this just sets stage for escalation of that spiral. Consciousness appeals to me, shit tests only work when they are played in an open conscious humorous way, when it is clear that it is a friendly challenge.

    Guys don't shit test women, women shit test men. A guy soft-nexting you is borderline done with your bullshit for some reason. It's soft because if you prove you're worth it, he'll keep you around. Otherwise you're gone. It's a position of abundance.

    We are told that we are not allowed to be happy with being a wife or a family alone. We are told that we have to be successful as men in order to be a valuable partner. We are told that we have to be as ambitious as you. We are told that we have to be successful and sexy even if we come home after a hard work day.

    Told by whom? For what reasons? Because you're ALSO told that you're a princess, that you're worth it, that he needs to do an equal share of the household chores even if you're a SAHM, that you don't need a man, etc. You're told a lot of things.

    We have zero role models. Zero as in zero. While you at least have Marlboro man and other macho like figures.

    Seriously? No. The only role models the media allows for either side are pop stars and actors. It's cultural decay all around and you're "grass is greener on the other side"ing the issue.

    Women do not have the freedom of choice anymore to decide which way they want to take

    BULLSHIT. You have as much freedom of choice as you choose to use. All the laws and social conventions keeping you from being a bricklayer, engineer, astronaut, etc. are gone. All the laws against miscegenation, gone. Everything preventing you from choosing your job or mate or house or living as you choose, gone. The only restrictions still on you are those you willingly accept from those around you, and that's a collar you forge yourself. Own it, stop blaming others.

    Being single, is like being a rabbit thrown into a cage of wolves, this is how it feels.

    Google the article, "Your Feelings and Why They Don't Matter." Seriously.

    But if we give in and give you sex, as you desire, and we don't insist on commitment because it is so normal that after few dates sex has to happen and before commitment is even thinkable, then how is being "nexted" as soon as we get emotional, or being played along Machiavellian principles using our deepest fears going to change anything about our lost connection? It leaves us feeling used. We gave what we are able to give in such a situation while we get nothing in return?

    Then don't put out like those other easy girls on the CC. Read RPW resources - they explain why.

    If you give up sex easily and quickly, you're signaling that your worth is that of an easy, quick lay, i.e. you're a $40 whore (the cost of a nice dinner, hopefully). You're the one agreeing to that price. RPW teaches you to value yourself and your needs more than that.

    So I do not know if rage and aguish are needed. I really don't.

    Rage and anguish will be caused whenever needs go unfulfilled. Current BP culture is teaching women that what they need isn't what they should want, and teaching men that what women want is what they say they want.

    It's all inaccurate lies. Of course there's rage and anguish. When men and women communicate openly and honestly, they can sometimes overcome this, but only by luck.

    RP clears all of this bad training of the last sixty years away, returns us to an understanding of male and female nature and how to fulfill our needs.

    [–]DelicateDevelopment 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I understand your points and agree with most of, even though on other things I seem have a fundamentally different view. Reciprocity is key, that explains basically everything. Judging issues on reciprocity, in personal affairs/relationships, doesn't need gender to see whether something is just or balanced or unfair or plainly stupid. If SAHM wants/insists on a fifty fifty responsibility for the housework it simply isn't reciprocal and one doesn't need RP in order to understand that. Using BP as an explanation for men complying to this has to acknowledge that women are subject to the same BP programming. That doesn't make either of them better or worse. I have read that article you mention long ago. I can see where this is coming from, but well personally, I do not have to buy into it in the same way. Empathy and consideration of the other, certainly within limits, are not one-way roads. If they are then something is fundamentally wrong and I agree that something is fundamentally wrong with the issues the article describes. It is reciprocity again. I deal with my shit, you deal with your shit. Sometimes we have to figure out how to deal with shit together. And it seems that people who know me value my sense of justice. I am also applying it to myself in way that is more rigorous than I observe in others. Some people interpret that as weakness. One friend even mentioned that I have the talent to inform people about mistakes I did, that they would not have even noticed. Well, I do not play power games. So if I mess up and the other reacts to it, it seems unjust to blame him for the reaction while not acknowledging that I messed up in the first place. Yes, this puts me in a position of relative weakness if the other is not as rigid with respect to his mistakes as I am with mine. So I naturally have high standards in order to not be exploited in that. It took me almost all my life to understand that most people simply are not like that and that they just use whatever argument in their favor. So while I understand that the article has a point, it is for me really difficult to understand it, because it just has never applied to me. For me it is simply that I cannot - or do not want to - expect from others to do what I am not willing to do myself. It goes in the opposite direction as well.

    [–]DelicateDevelopment 0 points1 point  (4 children)

    Told by whom? For what reasons? Because you're ALSO told that you're a princess, that you're worth it, that he needs to do an equal share of the household chores even if you're a SAHM, that you don't need a man, etc. You're told a lot of things.

    By "you", you mean women in general, right?

    I didn't have any of the above. I am just having a sleepless night because my thoughts are quarreling with all the controlling men I have encountered, first of all my father. He would probably rather cut his hand off before saying anything good about me, or before letting go. Never encouraging, berating every idea I had since I was a child, not missing any opportunity to let me know how stupid I am, that I am nobody and that I deserve nothing. I was never a princess and never told I am. To be honest, I also never really wanted to be one. To feel loved, once in my life, would have been enough. My father told me how despicable women are and how despicable men are who submit and my mom told me how despicable men are and how despicable women who submit. There are no winners in this game. Both sides feel vulnerable to exploitation and being used. There is little that destroys the feeling of being thankful than presenting gifts/support/help/"love" together with a controlling attitude. Being scared of being exploited sets the stage for control and thus destroys every friendly gesture. It happens on both sides. We cannot really change the social setting of our time. But we can decide ourselves whether we encounter each other with respect and curiosity or mistrust and preset expectations about the other persons being.

    The only restrictions still on you are those you willingly accept from those around you, and that's a collar you forge yourself. Own it, stop blaming others.

    I wasn't blaming.

    My intention was to describe the experience as I experience it myself and also how I observe it in the people around. I believe that exactly those who are aware and conscious should not blame each other but understand that they are sitting in the same boat. So I am not blaming. I was just explaining the other side of the female perspective.

    [–]LateralThinker133 Stars 0 points1 point  (3 children)

    We cannot really change the social setting of our time. But we can decide ourselves whether we encounter each other with respect and curiosity or mistrust and preset expectations about the other persons being.

    Absolutely true. Incidentally, my wife has a father similar to yours; her seeking his approval has nearly broken her. She has had to learn to let that quest go and to value herself and others more than him. It's hard for her.

    It lies to both of us. It tells both of us that we are not allowed to be who we are and what we want to be. Women do not have the freedom of choice anymore to decide which way they want to take and yet everybody is still supposed to be married and life happily ever after, without anyone really knowing how. It is this confusion that has these disastrous consequences for all of us.

    I will reiterate. You have all the options you want/need right now. Nothing is forcing you into one path or another. The only force keeping women down in the West today is their natural inclination to follow the herd and conform to the desires of those around them rather than their own.

    Sure, guidance has broken down as the family has broken down. But there's plenty out there, and much of it good. It just takes a good look at your own heart, while ignoring the clamoring voices, to figure out what you want. No one has the power to make those choices for you except for you.

    If anything RPW just reaffirms that you have that power by pointing out that Feminist brainwashing is just that, and that you're not a victim. You have the agency to make your life what you will.

    As for not getting better guidance on how to live your life... EVERYBODY has that problem. What's the point? What's the meaning of life? Only you can answer.

    [–]DelicateDevelopment 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    What's the point? What's the meaning of life? Only you can answer.

    Well, since I was a small girl I could see my mom struggling with things not being the way she wanted them to be. Irrespective of how much her kids, we, suffered, she suffered the same, because she didn't want things to be ugly.

    So I decided very early that before I will have kids I will grow up and become complete myself, such that my kids will not suffer from unpredictable emotions, irresponsible parenting and more.

    Now I am grown up and I like who I became as a person, but probably it is too late and probably I will never have kids. It would be at most 6 years, if I am lucky. I have no energy anymore and no hope. My own family and kids, that was why I did all that self-improvement, so for me meaning was always in having a family myself. This was all that gave me the strength to get were I am. Realizing that it will probably never happen takes away everything. I do not even have the strength and energy anymore to find meaning in anything. I still enjoy things, have intense emotions, happy days, so I guess I am not depressed. But somehow I could never identify with this living for enjoyment philosophy. It just isn't enough. When I talk to friends about this they say, that I could still adopt, but it just isn't the same as having a child with the person you love.

    You have the agency to make your life what you will.

    Time never unwinds.

    [–]LateralThinker133 Stars 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    When I talk to friends about this they say, that I could still adopt, but it just isn't the same as having a child with the person you love.

    I understand what you are saying. And I'd personally prefer to have biological children with my wife rather than adopting.

    That said, I am adopted, and I take great pride in the fact that I wasn't an accident to my adoptive parents unlike 80% of the human race, I was DESIRED. WANTED. They actively went out and got me, raised me, loved me. I count myself as better than most because I know that my parents unequivocably wanted me from the beginning.

    Just my personal perspective. Everything you've written in this thread... I can see where you're coming from, how you've suffered. I can see why you don't have much optimism or hope, and I sympathize. But on the other hand, you can ALWAYS improve your lot. Just as it can always get worse, it can always get better.

    If you truly believe life is as you have been describing, then you honestly and without malice really, really need therapy. Because it isn't as bad as you make it out. And if your history so colors your outlook as it seems to, then you DO have issues to work through and I hope you get help with them because it's plain as day that you're not over them.

    I wish you the best life possible.

    [–]DelicateDevelopment 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    That said, I am adopted, and I take great pride in the fact that I wasn't an accident to my adoptive parents unlike 80% of the human race, I was DESIRED. WANTED.

    Thank you.

    If you truly believe life is as you have been describing, then you honestly and without malice really, really need therapy.

    I don't see why what I described is so bad. Yes, the thoughts of never having kids myself and of maybe never experiencing how it is to feel loved, never feel safe and secure, make me feel miserable. Apart from that I feel incredibly rich for many things, but this richness is also what makes me feel miserable because I am unable to share it in the way that I desire most.

    You previous post opened my eyes with respect to the fact that right now my focus has been mislead. I have moments where I am deeply lovesick, because I believe that I have met somebody with whom all this were in principle possible. However due to circumstances and maybe more it seems as if he is not interested and when I realize that I "lost", it seems as if I had lost all my hopes at the same time. However, in principle, my priority is kids and a men with whom I am willing and able to try the challenge. But not "him".

    Therapy wouldn't make me understand that. Therapy would explore the reasons of why I make myself so dependent on one person. Well, I believe that this is because I am a woman and I never wanted anything else than to be "owned" by the right person. At least in my country all therapists are feminists at the same time. So then they would try to explain to me that "I don't need a man to be happy".

    The only reason why I dive so deeply into my own experiences is because I am wary of what the techniques taught by TRP can do to a truly loving person. I didn't have any trust issues at all before. I trusted myself and I felt strong, so I simply did not need to fear anything. It was rather that I felt overwhelmed by my own strength. Having someone playing dread games on you for five years is disastrous if you trust that person and if he is using the power he has only to serve his own interest, while declaring his interest to be yours.

    It is one thing to promote the techniques that serve a justified cause. It is another thing to deny that almost everybody who is moderately talented and finds a girl inexperienced enough will be able to (a-)buse it. Whether he does then depends on many things. TRP is a double-edged sword. So the TRP answer is that teaching how to use a weapon is not immoral, but amoral. However while teaching how to use a weapon, one should also teach how to use it without causing serious harm, if one doesn't want to. TRP doesn't teach that. TRP teaches that at some point the glamour wears of and the game becomes exhausting. Then the redpiller will decide on a genuine female. While in the meantime on his way to exhaustion he might (not must!) have left a trail of broken women and thus contributed to the increasing gap. It is all about communication. All those experiences are fuel to the fire of modern feminism.

    And it certainly cannot be justified by the "we were abused first". It is understandable from the viewpoint of an individual human experience. The "you did this" and the "but you did that" never solved anything. If one follows the MRP threads and the RPw threads, one can see that it takes two to maintain an unhealthy dynamics and if one of the two changes their attitude, by either becoming more masculine (men) or more feminine (women) the dynamics of the relationship seems to follow. So the "only" problem is to choose a partner with whom development is possible. I understand that if men feel or seem to think that they don't have choice they will fall for the first girl. So in principle I do not have anything against the techniques taught. I even think they are valuable for both, I just feel that most people underestimate the power they have with that and there is little that can be as dangerous as a person that is powerful while feeling weak.

    [–]Oscar_Cc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I appreciate your honesty in this long post, but the problem goes beyond individual attitudes I am afraid.

    Women have too much power in the current dating scene. An average-looking girl sets up a Tinder profile and she can be having sex in an hour with somebody at least as attractive as her, if not much more.

    Rollo Tomassi calls this "hypergamy", the tendency of women to shoot for the hottest/most charming guys. Those guys have such abundance that they never stick around. It is normal, I would do the same.

    All those problems you talk about would probably not happen with an average man. He would feel very lucky to have you. But, alas, those men seem to be invisible to you.

    Next time you are on Tinder swipe right on the run-of-the-mill guys you would have not considered, date them and see how it goes. I am sure it will be very, very different.

    [–]LateralThinker133 Stars 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    They are not breaking your character, they [are] learning how to appeal to your character NATURE.

    FTFY.

    Blue Pill doesn't lie to women.

    Oh yes it does. It teaches men to do what women say, instead of what they need. To be softer, gentler, kinder, WEAKER, because that's what all women "want".

    Blue Pill just tries to teach women that men are not important

    Nope. It teaches that women are everything and totally important and to be focused on and special and wonderful. It encourages female narcissism and female-centric thinking, values, and actions.

    I don't know if you think men of TRP want to punish women, but that is not the goal. TRP just teaches men what women actually want, and how to get them. It has nothing to do with punishment of women, it has everything to do with the education of men.

    This I wholly agree with. It's solely about teaching men how to get their needs fulfilled by women. Good alphas also care about fulfilling women's needs in the process; bad alphas do not.

    [–]sonder_one 3 points4 points  (2 children)

    OP writes as if the entire reason a man ought to exist is to benefit her. This is the essence of the difference between alpha and beta.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    I mean, males exist for females, females exist for males. Some are meant to be husbands and dads, others are not.

    [–]frankreyes 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    You're being honest and also understand the difference between sexes: that's great. And you also honestly show your disgust against unattractive people. That's great too. The whole point of what The Red Pill teach us is very simple: men and women have different definitions of what "unattractive" means. This is exactly what alpha and beta means: women feel naturally attracted to alphas, women proactively seek having sex with an alpha. Alphas will receive female attention without asking for it. They don't do that with betas. Betas have to ask for sex.

    [–]mynextaccount3 10 points11 points  (3 children)

    They’re good for providing, but they don’t turn you on. You don’t even respect them. They don’t hit your evolutionary attraction triggers. You may logically like them, but on an emotional level you are repelled. I admittedly don’t have enough experience to confirm this, but apparently it’s a strategy for women to lock down beta males for security and then fuck the alphas with what they detect as superior genes behind his back.

    I can tell you when I’m in the zone and carefree girls are very excited and interested. But when my deeply buried beta male tendencies intermittently slip through the cracks and they detect this, the light in their eyes goes out. Immediately. I’ve failed the reproductive vetting process in their brain. It becomes clear I’m “faking the funk.” And like you say, those needy and providing tendencies would theoretically be better for them. It just seems that way though. Clearly evolution didn’t select those traits for a reason. It may mean security but how good is that security if it also means weakness and dependence?

    Hope that made sense, I’m running on a sleep deficit and very scatterbrained at the moment.

    [–]frankreyes 3 points4 points  (2 children)

    This is so true. I've seen it with my own eyes. When a man breaks frame the woman is automatically disgusted. She just like that flips a switch and her feelings are totally different. And the sad thing is the man was just being honest and sharing his own feelings. Women like men in control who can lead.

    [–]glitterchild 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    What do you consider breaking frame?

    [–]justtenofusinhere 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    It's mainly an issue of perspective.

    First, reason is all well and good until the emotions take off. You know he's bad, but you want him even worse.

    Second, remember which is the carrot and which the goal--because it reverses for the sexes. Men use commitment to get sex and women use sex to get commitment (broadly speaking). The greater a man has to play up his commtiment credentials, the less anything else he (likely) has going for him.

    So, let's look at the reality of what you are asserting. A mentally slow, fat, unkempt broke man might very well think you were the best thing ever and be wholly loyal and devoted to you for all time. Is that who you want? Of course not. On the other hand, a handsome, intelligent, successful, funny, resourceful man would certainly make a great partner, but why would he give up all the women who want him to commit exclusively to you?

    Now of course those two extremes exist on a sliding scale. But, how much of what you want in a man are you willing to give up just to be able to call that man yours?

    [–]drops_of_Sunshine 3 points4 points  (4 children)

    I think it's important not to get too hung up on alpha/beta differences. The original term was to describe animal familial relationships, aka: plain ole leadership. If you're single and looking, look for signs of leadership, this will encompass other traits like confidence and assertiveness within it. My husband: not very muscular/tall, never chased women, But he was also: an Eagle Scout, has a new car he bought in his name, full time job with benefits, worked in many leadership roles, is often looked too by friends, family co-workers and strangers for guidance, and commands. He speaks very assuredly, he knows how to get his hands dirty and work hard, he is excellent with money, he knows how to fight and will throw down if words cannot resolve issues. He is also fiercely intelligent and competitive. He plays DnD, loves video games and anime and is slightly chubby, so on a superficial level it's easy to write him off as beta. But men like him that posses that aura that other men instinctively recognize and listen to, are actually alpha as hell. They have more than enough ability to be respected as leaders in their workplace, community, and family. So what then is a Beta? Well, a Beta does things that immature people might do: -take excessive amount of selfies, -use lots of emojis in texting, -easily gets upset/shows signs of being insanely inscure, -is ambitious, has lots of ideas for a great future, but no real plan or goals to help get there, - blames others for his short comings and situation, -brags about sexual prowess, -brags about size of his member, -is late on bills, has a hard time saving money, -is complacent living in mediocrity: living at home is cool, driving mom's hand me down car forever is cool too, -acts out aggressively: punches walls when mad, threatens or hurts his partner, threatens to kill himself when life gets slightly more stressful for him, -gets super jealous of other men: looks, money, popularity. That sort of sums it up. Alpha= leader, in control of his destiny mantra could be: "speak softly and carry a big stick" Beta= emotionally unstable "nice guy", thinks unchecked anger is what assertiveness is, a person who says he wants to do great things but creates excuses to why he can't. He is often depressed and restless. Pay attention to these the next time you meet a new man, and good luck in the dating field! <3

    [–][deleted] -3 points-2 points  (3 children)

    Dang, that beta description described so many guys in trp lol. Savage.

    [–]FeanorsGhost 2 points3 points  (2 children)

    Dang, that beta description described so many guys in trp lol. Savage.

    Yes it does, but. Keep in mind that most guys on TRP are relatively new to "swallowing the pill". They are as Sunshine describes, and they've come to TRP because they desperately want to change and are at the end of their rope.

    If you haven't already, peruse asktrp. It might help you get a better handle on where these guys are coming from. TRP is full of guys who are angry, extremely immature, hurting, and desperately seeking to become a man/leader/alpha in the truest sense.

    While I wouldn't recommend dating a guy who's in that stage, learning to understand their perspective will do wonders for you, as well as learning to show them a little grace.

    Most of us do grow out of it, eventually (that was me, circa 2014). But every last one of us went through that stage, at one point or another.

    Growing out of it also leads to spending a lot less time on Reddit, or TRP. Which means that you get replaced by other, less mature voices. Which means that TRP is constantly overrun by betas, as Sunshine describes them. The more mature voices, typically, have better things to do.

    [–]LateralThinker133 Stars 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    TRP is full of guys who are angry, extremely immature, hurting, and desperately seeking to become a man/leader/alpha in the truest sense.

    And part of this is because most of these men have no role models. Most of them come from single-mother households.

    Growing out of it also leads to spending a lot less time on Reddit, or TRP. Which means that you get replaced by other, less mature voices. Which means that TRP is constantly overrun by betas, as Sunshine describes them. The more mature voices, typically, have better things to do.

    Savage but true.

    [–]Oscar_Cc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I disagree regarding the typical lament on the lack of male role models. Fathers in their 50s probably have no clue on how hard women can be to game these days. When I talk to mine about things like choking, spanking, etc. he refuses to believe it. That stuff was degenerate not so long ago, it is mainstream now.

    Traditional masculinity is no longer enough, that's why TRP exists. The sexual revolution did really open Pandora's Box.

    [–]Rightwater 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    I think its not smart to refer to theredpill as "alpha" males. The redpill sub isn't redpill towards life. Yes they do understand how women operate however theredpill teaches you to accept that awalt, be selfish and look out for your own. Also theredpill puts sex on the pedestal. The redpill teaches how dominant characteristics are used to attract women but in my opinion it's a fake alpha.

    I know it is often stated that men want sex and women want commitment, which yes is true. Many men including alpha men also want commitment, they want to build a legacy, have a family and build something with their lives. Although this mindset is disappearing, there are many men out there that still have it. Alpha in the sense they know what they want, respect themselves and others, are confident yet still affectionate. And trust me from all the people I have met that are true alpha, they scout out women that show characteristics that redpillwomen tries to promote.

    What I am trying to really say is, dont think that theredpill and redpillwomen go hand in hand, they dont.

    [–]aussiedollface 3 points4 points  (1 child)

    If you can’t handle an alpha, then don’t marry one. I married one and it has its challenges, but then doesn’t every relationship? Take your pick! Side note, I see a lot of women married to betas who seem super bored, and they try flirt/get attention from alphas to get their thrills. This includes towards my husband, and he’s been around enough to know how the world works and he just thinks it’s hilarious. He respects my girlfriends more who have married alphas like him, also it means he enjoys social events more as he can chat to the guys and make friends with common interests/careers xo

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    The youngsters in TRP are not alphas themselves.

    [–]fortuitousmonk 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    I think it's not a spectrum of douchebag <=> sissy.

    You're just ignorant. I think what you're talking about is assertiveness. You can be assertive and hold your tongue. If you're a sissy, chances are you don't know how to assert.

    Personally, I guess I had the "beta" relationship. It was so traumatizing I'll never go back. Oh my gosh. Ha. No.

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (26 children)

    I apologize for my comments.

    I do want to vent a little though, in regards to this.. I get a lot of red pilled men constantly telling me to lower my standards because all that matters is my youth and fertility to a man.

    I’m pretty attractive and honestly I feel insulted when these ugly people hit on me and tell me to lower my standards, so that they can have a chance with an attractive woman. I don’t see why I can’t have an attractive man who has his shit together. I don’t want just any man. But red pilled men seem to think that I should get with any man, shut up, have babies, be happy.

    I’ve been told I am not truly red pilled because I am going to college and men don’t care about a woman’s education or background. I just don’t want to date or marry trash. I believe I have a better chance of meeting a successful man if I get out there, rather than sitting at home on my computer all day.

    [–]BewareTheOldMan 7 points8 points  (5 children)

    ...think we had this conversation about this your attractiveness before.

    Most men are fully aware of their attractiveness level and tend not to overshoot by staying within 1-2 points of their "level."

    Ugly men are acutely aware they have zero chance at landing an attractive woman, with the exception being extremely wealthy ugly men who generally have no issues attracting women for obvious reasons.

    "men don’t care about a woman’s education..."

    So... this is not true. Men do not want idiot wives/girlfriends. An "airhead" is useless for anything other than sex.

    The issue is women who "lead" with their education, certifications, and accomplishments in some frivolous, ostentatious attempt to gain attention, affection, or pre-qualification.

    The accomplishments, education, and certs. mean so much more if the man was a part of your life during these pursuits. I will state that an older man might appreciate your academic pursuits and self-improvement more than a man your age.

    Consider older, attractive men looking for a woman ready to be a wife and mother while continuing academic pursuits. It's possible, but I advise priority management - husband, kids, career...and in that order.

    I'm not saying you should settle for unattractive men, but Pretty Boys get excess female attention, generally put forth very little effort, and have no reason to commit with multiple women in rotation.

    I could probably offer a bit more advice, but will sum up this PRO TIP: BE the person you're searching for...like attracts like or more to the phrase "water seeks its own level."

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

    I agree fully.

    However, there are some men who are very attractive but just don’t know it. Or something is holding them back, a small insecurity, such as being bald for example. Or imperfect teeth, something that most women don’t really care about. From what I have noticed, men will (online) try to talk to anyone, even if that female is out of their league. They will try. In real life is a whole different game. IRL a lot of guys are too shy to talk to me, I usually have to initiate something. I do get confident ones too who strike up conversation with me. When I go up to Alaska, the men up there actually talk to me and I have a preference for the guys up there.

    Online creeps will talk to anyone. Even if the woman is attractive, because they are behind a computer screen.

    [–]WarViper1337 4 points5 points  (1 child)

    I think your missing some important perspectives here. In the online dating world men have absolutely zero power. They have no choice but to talk to any female that will listen. I know because I have been there. Unless your an extremely attractive man you get no attention at all. As proven by okcupids data mining women find 80% of men unattractive and only go for the top 20%.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I know that totally. That’s why I was saying online guys are different from real life guys. I just don’t think they’re in any position to tell a lady to lower her standards.

    [–]BewareTheOldMan 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    Your guy is probably somewhere in Alaska...

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Or really any conservative state. That’s not the point of my comment though.

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 9 points10 points  (6 children)

    I get a lot of red pilled men constantly telling me to lower my standards because all that matters is my youth and fertility to a man.

    Okay....?

    What do you have to offer other than youth and fertility?

    I don’t see why I can’t have an attractive man who has his shit together.

    Based on what merit do you deserve this? What makes you more special than any other girl?

    I’ve been told I am not truly red pilled because I am going to college and men don’t care about a woman’s education or background. I just don’t want to date or marry trash.

    So anyone who isn't white collar is trash?

    Good luck finding a man with that attitude.

    [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 4 points5 points  (3 children)

    So anyone who isn't white collar is trash?

    So sad really. When Husband and I met, he was working the night shift in dispatch at a trucking company. Now he's working in R&D making the requisite 6 figures that make women swipe right (wait, is it right? Tinder came after my time in the SMP). I guess it's a good thing I didn't write him off as trash for not having the same background that I do.

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (2 children)

    Yes indeed. It really is very sad...

    But hey, you and your husband are a whole category of cool all in your own right!

    [–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    Ha! Compliments go to him, he spent a decade shaping me into exactly the woman he wanted me to be...damn alpha types having to mold the world to their own whims. :-P

    [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Compliments to you too for allowing yourself to be molded in the image of a great guy!

    [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

    That isn’t what I said. But ok.

    [–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

    I’m not going to list all the things I’m good at so that the internet can validate me. All I’m going to say is that I was raised very traditionally and I have very good wife/SAHM qualities. I come from a family of hard workers.

    [–]md8716 7 points8 points  (4 children)

    I’m pretty attractive and honestly I feel insulted when these ugly people hit on me and tell me to lower my standards, so that they can have a chance with an attractive woman.

    Apparently you're not nearly as attractive as you think you are.

    [–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl 1 point2 points  (2 children)

    Want to explain this further or are you being snarky?

    [–]md8716 8 points9 points  (1 child)

    I'm not being snarky, it's just cold hard logic.

    If you think you are attractive but never get hit on guys you think are attractive, then that is a direct reflection of your own lack of attractiveness.

    If dudes are telling you that your standards are too high, then they're not trying to get with an attractive woman -- they think that you don't have any other options.

    That's 2 pretty clear signs of distorted self perception.

    [–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl -1 points0 points  (0 children)

    Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification.

    [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

    All attractive women get hit on by undesirables. I’m talking about all these weirdos online, in real life is a different story.

    I get treated way better in real life and ugly people don’t talk to me in real life. All these weirdos online though, jeezus.

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

    As an ugly educated woman whos married to a very attractive alpha man let me say keep on the right track and do you. Anything is possible in life. Maybe youll have to do the pursuing when you do meet the perfect guy (thats what I did) but it can totally happen for anyone who has their eyes open and works on themselves. Go out and volunteer, join groups, walk down a different street. Itll happen if you put yourself out there and go the distance.

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    I know that. I just don’t know why some red pill men are telling me to not pursue anything and just sit around and be useless. That makes 0 sense.

    [–]glitterchild 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    A few thoughts....

    1. I agree totally about the messages from some red pilled men. I’m not trying to knock TRP as a strategy but some of the men in it come across EXTREMELY poorly, and not “alpha” in the slightest. I read the comments that poster made about you and they were extremely rude and totally uncalled for (although to be fair, your comments to him didn’t shout kindness and maturity either)

    2. You are so so right about the “just take any man, have babies, and be happy” thing. This is probably my number one disagreement with RP thinking. If you peep my post history going pretty far back, I used to get in to it with people about this quite a bit. I see a lot of guys swallow TRP and (to their credit) get completely self improvement focused. It’s awesome, I love seeing people better themselves! But it seems to go hand in hand with “well I’m ONLY doing this because women are such shallow thots that they won’t like my natural Cheeto eating schlubby self so I better self improve, ugh women are a plague on society” That is such warped thinking. As a female, I know men wouldn’t want me if I was 250 pounds with an acne riddled face and a relentless tendency to nag. That doesn’t give me a right to be mad about that though, and say “fine, I’ll self improve but only because men are jerks” men and women both have a right to want the best partner they can get. It isn’t shallow, Yes, standards need to be realistic but this comment is too long already so if anyone is confused on what I mean, you can ask and I’ll clarify. :)

    3. With all that said, “trash” is an extremely unkind way to describe a fellow human being, it really doesn’t matter what they did to you. I get being overwhelmed and frustrated. The guy on TRP was extremely rude, and yeah it’s revolting to get hit on by guys when you’re so far out of their league you aren’t even playing the same sport. 😬 I’m with you there. But these are people. Behind the internet screen they have goals, and hurts, and people who love them. Just like you. Do you really think that those sorts of comments are the best approach?

    [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

    I was just venting. My bad.

    [–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[M] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    Education, Profession and RPW. Also, these are just a few of the women on this sub.

    Often repeated on RPW: TRP men and RPW women are not necessarily compatible. There are good men over there, there are young men over there, there are angry men over there, there are men who will never be Captains and there are men who are amazing Captains.

    You must take the advice you receive and decide what is best for you. If you are being told to lower your standards, but your standards are working for you, then that is advice that you can discard. No one is suggesting that you should be dating off of Reddit (and if men are hitting on you from your posting on RPW, you should let the mods know, that is against our rules).

    But also, you do not know who is ugly or trashy from behind the computer screen. Perhaps you need to check some of your own assumptions. Empathy is a feminine trait.

    [–][deleted] -3 points-2 points  (1 child)

    I do know who is ugly when they send a pic/imgur link of themselves. I’m not just calling people ugly out of the blue, or for no reason. It isn’t JUST reddit either. I am talking in general, in the past when I have tried plenty of fish and tinder, or just socializing through facebook.

    Also what I consider ugly may be cute to someone else.

    I’m a huge empath.

    [–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl 9 points10 points  (0 children)

    I’m a huge empath.

    You have been dismissive of men who you think are beneath you in many of the comments on this thread. You believe that people shouldn't ask you out if they don't meet your standards. Your empathy needs work.

    Also what I consider ugly may be cute to someone else.

    Then stop calling people ugly and garbage.

    [–]degenerativebastard 7 points8 points  (8 children)

    I think you're missing the definition of "beta" by a hair. Beta means low status, fundamentally. Someone who is often walked all over. It doesn't really have anything to do with how well you father children or anything like that, quite the contrary. I'd say a man who raises children well and sets them up for life and makes sure they're socially well off is alpha as hell. If you want a man who's self assured, can say no, can take risks, and who is successful, then that's alpha.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children)

    All the guys in TRP are skewing it then. I thought that is what an alpha was, but then I read those threads, and I’m just like ????

    Sleeping around with a bunch of women isn’t attractive (seems to be the main discussion over there) it’s just trashy.

    [–]RainbowKitty77 11 points12 points  (3 children)

    The guys on TRP aren't generally advocating for relationships.

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

    [removed]

      [–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[M] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

      From the sidebar:

      All members are expected to understand, and respect both the male and female strategies. Demonizing men or TRP is not allowed. Criticizing women for wanting marriage is not allowed. Only through understanding both the male and female approaches, can each sex more successfully pursue their own objectives.

      You may not understand or even agree with what happens at TRP but it's out of line to call them filth and garbage. There are real people behind each and every username. Be kind.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      I apologize.

      [–]degenerativebastard 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      TRP does a LOT of work pulling the "Nice Guys" back towards the center of the "Nice Guy"--Normal--Asshole spectrum, which leads to a good amount of hyperbole and exaggeration and skewing.

      Edit: clarification

      [–]lespetiteschoses 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Beta does not mean low status.

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

      Yes, I feel the same way. I like guys who are “beta” aka willing to love me and make sacrifices and financially support me if needed (like if I become a SAHM or if I lose my job) and do occasional romantic things. I don’t see these as bad qualities at all they are things I dream about.

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

      Me too!! I dream about it at night before I go to sleep. It relaxes my mind and helps me fall asleep easier.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      Lol we know what we want!

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      A man that will rub your back and run you hot baths :) bring you roses because he thought of you kind of man. Yup.

      [–]pink_sugar_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      For me a good partner is one that has a mix of beta and alpha traits. A pure alpha is never going to be a good partner for one woman only. And a beta is never going to be sexually attractive and earn a woman's respect. Think of Genghis Khan. He's was as alpha as one man could possibly get. Do you think he ever made a single woman truly happy? What men need not to be in my book is needy, submissive, physically weak and too emotional. They need to be able to take the lead. My future husband was quite far on the alpha scale when we met and for a long time after(we met very young, he was 15 and I was 13) , he was your tipical Chad the incels like to talk about. Muscular body (still has that), hot tempered, aggressive, had sex with multiple girls, he was feared around for his fighting skills etc. He was mean to me and wouldn't commit, send me home after we had sex, awful stuff like that. Now he's 28 and he's calmed the waaaaayy down in the last 6 years or so, now he-s like 50% beta and 50% alpha. He's making me incredibly happy. I could have never be happy with him if he kept being the same way he was when I met him.

      [–]The__Tren__Train 0 points1 point  (15 children)

      alphas are for pleasure and reproduction

      betas are for provision

      [–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (13 children)

      A mix of the two is perfection

      [–]BewareTheOldMan 5 points6 points  (0 children)

      Most men are beta males - it just is...

      Beta males with a solid mix and balance of Alpha traits is the better combination. The key is solid and genuine attraction, high compatibility, and shared life interests and goals.

      If I had to give succinct relationship advice, I offer these four tenets as must-have requirements.

      Women don't want a punk for a husband, but also don't want a douchebag who has no interest is being a great husband and exceptional father.

      The key is to find the unique and acceptable mix/combination.

      [–][deleted]  (11 children)

      [removed]

        [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (8 children)

        I don’t like hooking up or sleeping around.. I think it is gross and brings down a person’s value and self worth. It’s a waste of time and energy, imo.

        I’m all for being celibate, single, and waiting for the right one to come along.

        [–]aftertheafter-party2 Star 1 point2 points  (7 children)

        I’m all for being celibate, single, and waiting for the right one to come along.

        I hear what you are saying, but I want to caution you about "deciding" that someone is your person & that you cannot leave them because you have slept with them. It's a sunk-cost fallacy & could lead to you staying with the wrong person for too long or making an unsatisfying commitment to them.

        [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (6 children)

        I will not do that. I have broken up with my exes, I had sex with them, but when things started going south I left them.

        [–]polakfury 0 points1 point  (5 children)

        What are some red flags when its starting to go down south?

        [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children)

        It just depends.. I tend to observe a lot. I watch for some behaviors. I will break it off if the guy doesn’t seem like a good match for me long term. Such as reckless spending, not willing to compromise, not thinking of me, putting me second or third or below other things, immature actions/decisions, being lazy, not doing things to secure his future (such as building credit). Some of these things can be worked on but my ex wasn’t willing to work on them. It didn’t help that he had aspergers, people on the spectrum tend to be in their own world and only care about their own interests. I also look for behavioral problems, like poor anger management, too much drinking, poor time management from procrastinating. I feel like I shouldn’t have to bring the issues up and tell him to get his sh*t together, because he’s a grown man and should just know. My ex was 25 and a lot of the stuff he did made me shake my head.

        What I consider “going south” is danger for long term, living together, marriage, children. If a guy is still living with his family and helps them with their bills and living expenses, I take that as a red flag. That is a man who is not ready for marriage and a family.

        [–]polakfury -1 points0 points  (3 children)

        If a guy is still living with his family and helps them with their bills and living expenses, I take that as a red flag. That is a man who is not ready for marriage and a family.

        I can see that. Was there ever a point thought of moving in with both of you contributing? If he could pay expenses while at home he could when out of it.

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

        Yea but he wanted to move into a really gross trailer park in a terrible neighborhood, because it is cheaper. I didn't want to nag him about it, so I just dropped hints that I would prefer an apartment and that I would be willing to split the costs if need be. But he reeeaally was set on getting a cheap trailer and moving into the trailer park. I wasn't able to do that.

        [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

        A good man isn’t going to want used up pussy for his wife and mother of his children.

        [–]Ramp_Up_Then_Dump 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        This shoild not be downvoted. Pleasure=sex=reproduction in nature. This is one of the core concepts.

        [–]Ramp_Up_Then_Dump 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        When you look from men's point of view: No one wamts to bring an asshole to home. So they bring betas to home and fuck alphas outside.

        That is why beta is bad at trp. If women would be faithfull to men, trp would not exist, trp would be a pure PUA forum. Many of followers would be happy with their wifes/LTRs.

        [–]CandyHunter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        I think the problem people have is how easy other people attempt to box them in. I don't intend to turn this into a political discussion, but for example, I have some conservative stances on things and some liberal stances on things. I refuse to believe that anyone is 100% liberal or 100% conservative, just like I don't think there's this imaginary Alpha Chad who fits the stereotype, just like I don't believe in a Beta Bradley who is just a cartoon character of what a 'beta male' is.

        Not to mention a lot of things are up for personal interpretation. Is it 'Alpha as fuck' to man up to your responsibilities as a father and raise the best son/daughter you can? Or is it 'Super Beta Cucklord' because you let a woman tie you down with a child and now you're forced to care for kids?

        A good partner will have 'alpha' traits where you want them and 'beta' traits where you want them. For example, he may take control in the bedroom, or handle finances, but he may also help with the dishes or cook when you get home from a hard day's work. Where ever you place your value in a partner, he should exhibit those traits. Alpha, beta, gamma, whatever.

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        I don't take "alpha" or "beta" seriously. I think both men and women have dualistic sexuality, but don't necessarily have to entertain it. And both men and women appear like they are attracted to some different traits with having immediate sex and seeking monogamy. I think because the red pill subreddit is generally a hub for the second wave of pick up art (at least I would call it the second wave), this is why the alpha and beta labels persist, they are highly beneficial labels from the point of view of a pick up artist.

        I think that if someone sees the part of their brain that sees sex on impulse, as a part of their brain that they will not allow to control their relationships, they generally have control over their own sexual duality. A man might want to have sex with a girl who is dressed more slutty on impulse, but he'd rather have a loving, loyal woman who is dressed slutty for him-- or has traits he relates to impulsive attraction, and a woman desires the same combination of loving and loyal with traits she relates to impulsive attraction, but when the love and loyalty isn't there, its usually less desirable. So the fact that these are potentially differing traits isn't as important as what traits are most desirable, and what are most important; because love and loyalty seem to have more power to make a partner want to become attractive to human impulse, than casual sex is likely to make a partner become loving and loyal.

        [–]MadSparty 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        How about sigma males? They have alpha traits but don't fit any category and instead choose to embody what they value most in life.

        [–]Baetachi 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        My boyfriend is kind of "beta" too. But I love my beta boyfriend :)

        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

        [removed]

        [–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[M] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        From the sidebar

        We are a reflection of TRP, and apply RP theories, terms, and ideas to aid the pursuit the female-based red pill goals. All members are expected to understand, and respect both the male and female strategies. Demonizing men or TRP is not allowed.

        If you have nothing nice to say then don't say it.

        [–]drops_of_Sunshine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Maybe they aren't truly betas. Maybe the men you describe are in fact alphas but they have a sort of introverted nature about them. I believe there are different types of alphas, the man who can be a great father, loving spouse etc has obvious leadership abilities that are 'alpha', he leads his life confidently, but maybe quietly, which could be mistaken for beta behavior. I think this post's line of thinking may accidentally discount some of the absolute best men out there. If your man is all these things OP describes, then he is perhaps more alpha than we first realize.