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THEORYDating for the Modern Woman (self.RedPillWomen)

submitted by vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor

Dating can be very confusing for the modern woman. Do you put your career on hold? When do you start playing housewife? When do you relinquish your independence (or maintain it)? What is your role in his life, what is his role in yours?

This post is gained from my personal experience of dating, (I have been close to engagement twice) so this is just one woman's ideas. To give you background info, I am your typical modern woman - postgraduate degree, stable salary, travel experience, both parents with postgraduate degrees. I am very feminine in demeanor and appearance; I have no issues getting asked out. My issues with modern relationships is not about being feminine (although it fascinates and inspires me spiritually) but rather the roles for the modern educated man and woman.

The following are all linked to each other in some way.

1) Set the beginning foundation of the relationship as platonic.

Saying to have a platonic relationship can be controversial because we all want romance at the beginning. We always are attracted because of the butterflies. So why do I say be friends with him first? Two reasons - it's MUCH easier to vet and talk about each other's hopes and dreams, personal history and family background, philosophies and viewpoints, without having anything romantic involved. Your mind is not shrouded by your hormones and there is less pressure on both sides. Secondly, most strong marriages need a successful foundation outside of sex. Marriage is not only about sex (as important as it is) but the companionship. There are too many examples of couples being clouded by hormones and after the excitement wears off, there's nothing left.

Vetting your compatability as friends first allows you to explore each other's RMV over time, and it will be easier to see if you like each other as people first and foremost before the hormones set in.

2) Let him be interested in you first, and your job is to see if he's worth it.

You cannot deny attraction. When men are attracted, they chase. Would you rather marry a man that you had to bend over backwards to keep or marry a man you knew saw you as a catch from the beginning? Of course, it's your job to be a catch. This homework is a long process of understanding yourself, who you are, your personal philosophy and mindset, your interests.

Always invest in yourself and the right person will come along.

3) Invest in yourself.

Don't put your life on hold for someone you are not married to. This might be controversial but what I've seen among modern educated couples is that the man is usually the one chasing, until he catches her as his wife, and then you build your life together. And what I've also seen is no modern educated man is attracted to a woman who immediately and readily sets her life down for him, before marriage. As u/Shaela90 once wrote:

No matter what the RP tells you, high quality guys appreciate independence and a bit of a hard to get attitude in a woman...Taste, culture, education, the right hobbies and an enriched mind really matter a lot, therein lies the difference between a "used-to-be" hot girl who hit the wall hard and a post-wall woman who's still (or in some ways, even more) attractive. I'm assuming the possibility of a multidimensional wife who's committed to improving and never truly gets old and matronly was the main reason which made all these guys invest so much money, time and effort [...].

If you're going to use this route though, you better be an amazing woman, and that's the difficult part. Be a woman that is socially graceful, knowledgeable, responsible, disciplined. I don't mean even in a career sense. Know what your personal values are. What's important to you? How do you judge what's right and what's wrong? How do you have fun and enjoy life? How do you stay happy when things aren't going well? How's your perseverance? How do you tackle problems or bad moods? How do you handle life when other people are giving you trouble? How do you take care of your body? What are your interests? What's your artistic style?

4) Don't play housewife until marriage.

By this I mean chores like laundry or cleaning. Cooking, yes, is important throughout the relationship. Cook for him after you have vetted him and know he is interested in you and not what you can do for him.

But once you're in LTR, don't start to expect him to come home to you every night. Save that for marriage. You can offer to help with laundry in rare occasions but I advise never to clean his apartment for him. (This is all assuming you don't live together). Then when you're married or cohabitating, you can divide the chores accordingly.

Edit: To specify that this rule really pertains to women who end up ONLY being a maid for their boyfriends, and nothing else. Some women may need to pull their weight more. But for those that end up waiting around on weekends for him, only to find out he's made plans without you, or those that rush into their boyfriend's apartment cleaning and folding his clothes after dating for three weeks...give it a rest, show your domestic help slowly.

Anyways, like all else, use your brain. Don't be a whiney bitch when you've cooked together at his apartment and he's cleaning up by himself and you're sitting with your phone on the couch. By all means clean up with him. Just don't call him every week and ask if he needs his laundry done.

5) Never give more than he's giving you.

There was one book that stated to give back once every 2-3 times he gives to you. So let's say he takes you out twice in one week, then you offer to cook dinner for him after that. Is this a game? Of course, but there's more to it. Men like being in control of their lives, and the more you give to him, the more pressure it is for him. Allow him his independence during the dating phase. Let him determine how fast everything is going. That's what I mean by letting him chase you, letting him give to you more.

6) The basics of cooking and cleaning.

Please, modern women. There is nothing "feminine" about this but simply basic adult survival skills. I personally despise it when there's so much emphasis put on cooking and cleaning. You should already know how to take care of yourself before dating, and if you don't (or didn't have parents to teach you), start learning. Don't be a sad helpless case. Take responsibility for yourself.


[–]Shaela90 21 points22 points  (1 child)

Awesome post! And right in time too, as lately I've been going through a small crisis in my relationship which served as a reminder that independence is of utmost importance:

I've moved in with my boyfriend about a month ago and I never imagined it would be this DIFFICULT. Between a job, working out, keeping house and my perfectionist tendencies, I forgot all about myself and then started relying on his validation a bit too much. Last weekend I kind of had a bit of a breakdown and asked him what the deal was. Shockingly, he said that although he cares deeply for me he feels I'm not as intellectually stimulating as before and that he's a bit bored with me. I was honestly upset and mad at him, like here am I picking up after the two of us, trying to do everything right and he's BORED?

I let it sink for a while and then figured out that oh well, if he's got time enough to feel bored, then maybe he could help with my workload...which he happily did. And I got back to my books and my movies, spent more time with friends so I had more interesting subjects to discuss, found time to get a much needed haircut and put more effort into my appearance every day this week. I feel better, much more independent and he's seen and appreciated the change. So my story ends well, yay!

My point is ... I could not believe how easy it was for me to FORGET my own advice once my living conditions changed and how easy it would have been to just slip into a pattern of acting all motherly while becoming more and more bitter and frustrated. Hopefully this situation will serve me as a lifetime reminder of the importance of being my own person.

[–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Self-esteem and validation is so important to ourselves as women. We tend to always rely on one man for validation but I would like to advise seeking validation from many different sources (that's why I told myself if I ever quit my job and have children, I will still volunteer and have side projects or continue reading and traveling and meeting different people).

Of course, validation still comes from within, and my personal experience is to understand yourself very well and perhaps rely on even a higher power, because in the end we are all alone.

[–]SouthernAthenaEndorsed Contributor 6 points7 points  (0 children)

give back once every 2-3 times he gives to you

Funny, I've heard RP say the same advice for men and their behavior toward women. I think this is why we talk about trying to not make relationships transactional. Of course, there needs to be balance.

Overall good post though. In my experience, men these days do really want a fairly independent woman. Not a "strong independent woman," but a woman who can take care of herself and isn't totally dependent. I'm sure there are exceptions, but, for example, since men do not have as much purchasing power as they tended to in the past, it's less appealing/normal to think of fully financially supporting a woman out of the gate.

[–]139052 10 points11 points  (4 children)

Strongly disagree about not behaving like a wife until you are married. A man should get to experience how you will be as a wife before committing to being legally bound to you. Its the only way he can make an informed decision.

[–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I agree with you, but my point was to not immediately jump into being a housewife and not to become ONLY a housewife. Slowly show him your abilities here and there. A terrible extreme example would be:

Man and woman decide to be exclusive. Woman starts texting him saying she has dinner ready, every single night, expecting him to go to her apartment every night. Man is annoyed because he still wants his space and his social circle even while dating. Woman starts to rely on him for everything and dumps her girlfriends.

These tips really pertain to the dating phase which is usually first 3-4 months of any relationship.

[–]RubyWooToo3 Stars 2 points3 points  (0 children)

A woman can demonstrate her wifely abilities without playing wife to a man she's not married to. She does this by keeping her home clean and well-decorated, preparing meals and treats for him, pampering him when he visits her house, and picking up after herself when she visits him.

But /u/vanBeethovenLudwig is absolutely on point when it comes to advising women against rushing into a wifely role. I saw this mistake in action all the time when my Dad was bachelor. The women he dated were all overeager to show off their domestic prowess and would clean the house from top to bottom every time they visited, spend three hours at the laundromat cleaning his clothes, run errands for him, etc... and then they were bewildered when he started taking them for granted and treating them more like his mother than a woman he was courting.

[–]redditJ5 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Have to agree, the was the original post states, you aren't going to do anything until married, sorry, I would have to next you next you on the way it's posted. If you were a milk cow and didn't produce any milk except under extreme pressure, what on Earth would make me think if I bought that cow it would magically start producing milk? I don't want a woman being my maid but if you see me cleaning up or trying to take care of things, I expect you to offer to help, otherwise you are a dependent not a partner.

And on the giving back 1/3 what a guy puts into you. Sorry, another red flag. If you don't contribute to the relationship and partnership and hold back, that shows me you only have your own interests in mind and not a relationship or partnership with a family unit.

That's probably not what you intended to stay but that's how you come across.

[–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I see how it can come across and I agree women should definitely give back during the LTR phase. Perhaps I should make it clear that these rules specifically pertain to the beginning dating phase - usually the first three months. So yes, I think any man who is dating a new woman would be turned off if she suddenly started telling him to go to her house for dinner every day when they've only known each other for a few weeks.

When you're vetting and just starting to know each other, it's critical to let him make the moves first. After you are LTR then it's time to be giving equally.

When the couple is slowly getting to know each other, she should ABSOLUTELY show her skills in domestic duties. By this I mean if they cook together at his apartment, she helps clean up. If they cook at her apartment, she cleans up. She helps if necessary. But what she should not do, is show up to his apartment with the sole purpose of doing his laundry and mopping his floors and washing his dirty dishes.

When they are getting to know each other, she offers. But she is not his maid first and foremost.

These tips may be more helpful to women who struggle with giving too much.

[–]Those_Lingerers 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I agree with what you've outlined. At 29, all of this finally clicked in my head. I used to bend over backwards, do the houswework, etc. and lost a sense of myself along the way. And it never yielded a successful relationship. You really hit the nail on the head here and I cant wait to see how my dating life changes over the next few years.

[–]ElfFey 2 points3 points  (1 child)

This is a great post. I live in a huge city and I agree with all of it. I have got shit on the forum before for saying men and women should be friends first, but there is a big expectation for sex here that isn't there if you want to be friends. I don't know how to explain it exactly but your advice is spot on. Also, behaving like a wife: I am so guilty of this, meanwhile my girlfriends who can't do anything domestic get married. It's because guys don't care: he can tell from how you keep your apartment, if you have a pet, and other things like that what you are like domestically. If you're always trying to show off to him he will just end up taking advantage of you. Just don't do it because you don't have to prove anything to him: then the day will come when you do it and he's pleasantly surprised for your help. But I think if you try to do it as showing off, the guy will find it manipulative.

I hate to say this but most of the people saying this is bad advice are guys who don't want to admit that this is advice for MODERN women dealing with MODERN men. Modern guys grew up with appliances, internet, helicopter parents, and Tinder. They don't care about a lot of these things and don't see the value in it. You have to vet carefully and find a guy who understands what's important and knows WHY it's important too. Just like TRP advises not to spend money on women, here RPW advises women not to spend what they have on men. Once you find the right person who you have a good dynamic with, hopefully some of this advice goes out the window and you're in a more traditional relationship with them.

[–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I have got shit on the forum before for saying men and women should be friends first, but there is a big expectation for sex here that isn't there if you want to be friends.

Here's the thing though - men ALWAYS want sex. Men don't mind having sex with a "friend." So being "friends" first basically is vetting before deciding to have sex.

It's because guys don't care: he can tell from how you keep your apartment, if you have a pet, and other things like that what you are like domestically.

Yes, and even things like how you dress, how you keep your office, how you arrange your closet, if you wash dishes right after cooking...men are actually pretty observant. They're always watching you.

If you're always trying to show off to him he will just end up taking advantage of you.

This has happened to me countless times.

Just don't do it because you don't have to prove anything to him: then the day will come when you do it and he's pleasantly surprised for your help.

EXACTLY. With my last boyfriend I tried so hard to prove I was "wife material" by being domestic and kind but it turned into him taking advantage of me and us not having any sort of foundation of friendship/compatibility in personalities. There wasn't really anything there. We also slept together after the third date which is quite quick. My current boyfriend and I didn't sleep together until five months of spending individual time with each other.

You have to vet carefully and find a guy who understands what's important and knows WHY it's important too. Just like TRP advises not to spend money on women, here RPW advises women not to spend what they have on men. Once you find the right person who you have a good dynamic with, hopefully some of this advice goes out the window and you're in a more traditional relationship with them.

Well said. And the reason I stress letting the man chase you at the beginning is to test him too. Does he have priorities or is he just looking for fun?

[–]IdoNtEvEnWaTz 2 points3 points  (1 child)

You cannot deny attraction. When men are attracted, they chase. Would you rather marry a man that you had to bend over backwards to keep or marry a man you knew saw you as a catch from the beginning? Of course, it's your job to be a catch. This homework is a long process of understanding yourself, who you are, your personal philosophy and mindset, your interests.

If the guy does the chase doesn't that make him seem desperate or something? I see so many conflicting advices on this stuff.

[–]Atomicbebe 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I feel there is chasing and there is chasing, too much might make you look desperate but strategic chasing is needed. If you chase someone and there is no response don't chase any more. Women like romance and flirting and some build up of tension to be attracted. It's a chase where you want the other person to chase you and you should be able to judge the response along the way. Men like how women look, women like how men make them feel, to make a woman feel desired you need to do some kind of chasing. So women put effort into how they look, men need to put effort into how they make women feel when you want to attract each other. If you marry someone who doesn't chase it will be harder to get turned on for sex and you will feel unattractive, even when married you have to do the romantic things to keep the relationship alive, just like women need to maintain their appearance.

[–]ThatStepfordGalEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I love these tips, especially 2. You really have to invest in yourself and know yourself, 'get yourself ready' and it will all fall into place. That's just how it goes- sort out your values and exactly what you want, I think that acts as a magnet for the right guy, since you'll give off the right vibe. Speaking from experience :)

[–]RubyWooToo3 Stars 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I was friends with my husband for 6 years before we started dating, but as a general rule, I wouldn't advise presenting yourself as a friend to a guy in whom you're romantically interested.

Take it slow? Yes! See what common values and interests you have outside the bedroom before inviting him into yours? Absolutely. But if you want to date him, you should treat him as if he's a potential boyfriend, not a friend... because an attractive, high-quality guy is not going to be content chilling in friend zone when he has plenty of other options.

[–]Atomicbebe 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I couldn't agree more, the whole post is brilliant. Especially about the first part about being friends first. Over at ask women in the last few weeks I saw a question "was it love at first sight or did you get to know your so first" the overwhelming response was that it worked out better with getting to know someone first and love at first sight didn't work out very often. For me when the pressure to decide was put on too early when I was still deciding about a guy I would just say no.

[–]LadySW 0 points1 point  (6 children)

This is a good post and all, however, what if you are very independent and the guy just does not have any interest in you at all? I find this all too often in my life. I am a strong independent woman, I had to be due to a visual impairment I have. I learned from age 15, when I became visually impaired, that you have to do things on your own, to make it in a sighted world. Since that time, I have done so, sure I've made mistakes on the way, everyone does, but now, I see that my strong independence pushes men away. They are actually afraid of me!! I do see myself as a feminine woman, just a strong independent feminine woman and I guess men do not like that. You stated in your post that we should let the men chase us, lol, that has never happened in my life, ever, I have had to chase them instead, with no results, by the way. Sometimes I think it is better just to remain single and not date at all.

[–]ElfFey 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If the guy isn't interested in you there's nothing you can do about that. Just let it go. But maybe try to be more vulnerable and give him some room to impress you.

[–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

If this is the case then there is something with your demeanor that is off-putting. Are you sociable? Can you flirt?

[–]LadySW 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Yes I am sociable and I do flirt, I am just quiet and that is something that is a part of my personality.

[–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Do you dress nicely? Are you having stimulating conversations with men when you do socialize?

Otherwise, I can't really think of a reason why men wouldn't approach.

[–]LadySW 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I usually wear slacks and a nice feminine blouse, some light makeup and minimal jewelry, usually a dainty necklace. When a man actually approaches me, it is usually small talk, they do not say much themselves. I believe some of the reason why men do not approach me as well is because I use a white cane wherever I go. People automatically assume I am blind and do not know what to say or do when they see me. In a previous post, I explained this, it is my profile history. Maybe this is not the correct reddit for me, I am having a difficult time adjusting to wearing my prescription glasses, if I wear them, I will not have to use the cane as much, it is a self-confidence issue on my part. I feel that people will think I am fake when they see me with my glasses on and using the cane, and there are times when I will need to use it. For a little more explanation about my visual loss, I have no vision at all in my right eye, not even light perception, in my left eye, I have less than a one degree visual field, meaning, I have very narrow tunnel vision, look through a straw one day with your right eye closed and that is all I can see. There is no peripheral vision at all in my left eye. Within that tiny tunnel vision, I do have 20/30 acuity with corrective lenses.

I have used my cane for so long, I am talking over 20 years, that I would not know what to do without it. Mostly I fear of walking into something that I am unable to see at the side of me, this has happened many times in the past when I did not use a cane. So, I believe part of the reason why men do not approach me is the cane in itself, maybe their is more to it than that as well, I do not know. What can I do to improve myself that I have not already done?

[–]LadySW 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I wanted to add a little more to my explanation of visual loss to everyone. The following link, pretty much sums up what I go through everyday, I am not seeking pity or sympathy here, just explaining more circumstance. The girl in the photo is pretty much how I get around everyday with my cane.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/nov/14/the-way-i-see-it-living-with-partial-blindness-rp

[–]red-arctic-tern 1 point2 points  (34 children)

This post is garbage. The Red Pill says it's the womans job to work for the relationship because she is the one that wants/needs it.

[–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

RPW is all about being the best woman you can be, who is committed to improvement to herself, her husband and her children.

[–]BewareTheOldMan 8 points9 points  (2 children)

There is some useful information here, but it needs slight modification(s). Don't COMPLETELY dismiss Red Pill informational references. They are a guidelines/principles, but MANY Red Pill Men are not going to work as hard to corral a woman in 2017 and beyond as they would have just five or ten years ago. OP's strategy may be useful with late 30's and early to late 40's men and even then...you BETTER be ONE AMAZING WOMAN. OP references this fact in Point #2. Think George Clooney and his current wife. She ISN'T just ANY woman. She is a highly educated and well-respected International Attorney, represented some very high-profile clients during her career, worked at The Hague (International Court of Justice), is part-owner of a business, and is fluent in three languages.

Legend has it HER parents disapproved of him being a "lowly actor/celebrity" and not someone of true significance. They apparently got over their disapproval. Another one...Bill Gates (then age-38) married his very accomplished wife (then-age 29). She had an important position at Microsoft. She suspended her career to produce/rear three children and the rest is Microsoft History.

Currently, there are so many women easily giving up sex that even men who AREN'T RED PILL see the paradigm shift and are not willing to work hard chasing women. Younger men aren't going to wait for sex. They see themselves as the prize whereas women USED to be placed on pedestals. For example, Point #5 references the 1:2-3 effort-reward ratio. Notably, Red Pill Men use this same strategy and expect to perform less while the woman demonstrates more effort for HIS attention. Overlapping techniques almost always clash if both parties are using the exact/similar tactic. Points #4 and #6 are good for giving a taste of homemaking skills, but not overdoing it.

The belief is that IF you want his last name (as in marriage, love, effort, resources, and commitment), the woman MUST demonstrate high levels of worthiness well beyond the scope of the average woman. Again - be SPECTACULAR.

Attraction is easy. It's either present or not and is non-negotiable. RP Men are painfully aware of this fact and look to avoid a strictly Beta Provider situation whereby sex, submission, femininity, and homemaking skills are demonstrated early ONLY to be rescinded AFTER commitment or even worse - AFTER marriage. RP Men are painfully aware of the "Bait and Switch."

Another point...time is not on your side as a woman, but time benefits men better in the long run. "The Wall" is real and RP Men frequently reference this point. Know when to "cash in."

The Red Pill says it's the woman's job to work for the relationship because she is the one that wants/needs it. As true a RP Tenet as there ever was. The person who needs/wants the relationship or benefit the LEAST is the person with the most power. In the end, a TRUE RP Man will simply walk away if he doesn't get what he wants...another basic RP Tenet.

Again - OP's advice is useful, but applying the advice is tricky. The key to all of this is to be an amazing women MUCH different than all others, then there is a chance of success.

Side note: I have been close to engagement twice. Congratulations on getting asked twice (or getting close). Reality for most woman is they get one shot and one shot ONLY. After multiple attempts/close calls quality men WILL stop asking. After that, it will usually be guys women DON'T really want who will be the only willing suitors. That does not go well for ANYONE, especially the man. Again - Know when to "cash in."

[–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

After multiple attempts/close calls quality men WILL stop asking.

Yes absolutely. In my case it was situations where I felt it was actually riskier to get engaged (both of them became long distance and would have meant we would be LDR longer than in person, and both parties significantly changed in that period) and there were financial issues as well. Bad vetting on my part though. It goes both ways.

The belief is that IF you want his last name (as in marriage, love, effort, resources, and commitment), the woman MUST demonstrate high levels of worthiness well beyond the scope of the average woman. Again - be SPECTACULAR.

Absolutely, hence the emphasis on continuing to invest in yourself and your own happiness.

ANY Red Pill Men are not going to work as hard to corral a woman in 2017 and beyond as they would have just five or ten years ago.

Yes, but we are not looking to marry Red Pill men who sleep around only. Most of us want a man who cares about us and can take lead of their family. I would actually rather stop labeling things as RP or not RP and really just concentrate on self-improvement and respecting our partners for happy relationships.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Right! I go over there (TRP) and feel appalled half the time. Looking to marry one feels .... questionable.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 12 points13 points  (27 children)

Maybe TRP is looking for something different out of life than RPW. My 2 most successful relationships followed a lot of what the OP outlines. My husband absolutely chased me and he's hardly a passive blue pill guy. I actually think that he needed to chase me. Had I surrendered and fallen into bed with him before we knew each other, there is a non zero chance I would have been just another FWB to him.

If you are going to call the post 'garbage' then please cite facts. RP is a theory about how to live life. There are studies and facts that underly the theories but to say "RP says" isn't a worthy debate tactic. If you are going to come here and be insulting, I challenge you to back up your insults with something more than the simplistic "RP Says".

[–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor[S] 9 points10 points  (25 children)

My husband absolutely chased me and he's hardly a passive blue pill guy.

I don't really understand when people say men who chase are betas. Alpha men always have chasing tendencies - chasing money, fame, women. It's ABSOLUTELY necessary for a man to chase you because he is going for a goal and if he's smart enough he knows what kind of woman he's looking for.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 6 points7 points  (24 children)

I don't think I've seen it suggested around here, probably for exactly the reason you state. I guess if all that a guy is looking for is to spin plates then maybe? But my gut tells me that a guy who waits for the woman's lead in the relationship is insecure or not interested. I don't actually think chasing (specific to a relationship here*) is an alpha or beta trait. The method and mentality the guy uses might determine alpha or beta behavior but not the act itself.

*I tend to agree that when you see chasing extended beyond a relationship that it is usually an assertive alpha type trait.

[–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor[S] 5 points6 points  (23 children)

But my gut tells me that a guy who waits for the woman's lead in the relationship is insecure or not interested.

This is exactly it. From what I've seen, the guy who waits for the woman's lead is an opportunist. He reaps all the benefits without having to lift a finger. And he's usually an asshole that really doesn't have any redeeming RMV qualities other than being tall and handsome and confident. I would know, because I used to date one.

Alternatively of course this can happen vice versa (man chasing a beautiful woman who has no RMV) but I'm just under the assumption here that we are all average but attractive women here who have a good heart and want a happy relationship.

[–]123TxB 1 point2 points  (22 children)

But if a guy chases a woman, wouldn't he be no different than an orbiter?

[–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor[S] 6 points7 points  (21 children)

Not necessarily. As long as he maintains his independence and is committed to his own self improvement, he is not an orbiter.

Orbiters tend to be the "too nice and slightly effeminate" guy who gets friend zoned. It's the fine line between an orbiter chasing and an alpha chasing.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 2 points3 points  (11 children)

Agree. In the year that my husband and I were friendly before we started dating he had a lot of things going on. We had a mutual friend and saw each other almost weekly BUT I had no sense he was hung up on me or waiting around until I agreed to go out with him. Mostly he'd put out subtle feelers from time to time. When he decided that he was ready to move forward he knew all the right things to say and do and I was totally smitten.

It is a fine line because I couldn't say what differtiated him from an orbiter. If a guy gets it he just gets it I guess.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (10 children)

If it were me, I'd have assumed that you were not interested.

[–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor[S] 3 points4 points  (3 children)

Well thank goodness there are men out there who aren't you.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor 3 points4 points  (5 children)

Then you and I would not have been right for each other - not everyone is even if both people are decent people). It worked for me and Husband. To some extent evolutionary psychology backs me up. The Madonna/whore idea goes way back and across cultures. Delaying sex helps cement a woman on the "Madonna" side and that can lead to the guy sticking around longer and providing care and resources (or in moderns terms: more likely to marry) (citation: The Moral Animal).

[–]123TxB 0 points1 point  (8 children)

So what is he suppose to do in the chase then?

[–]vanBeethovenLudwigEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point  (7 children)

Are you asking for yourself or to challenge the theory?

[–]123TxB 0 points1 point  (6 children)

Asking for clarification and because I'm curious.

[–]BewareTheOldMan 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Maybe TRP is looking for something different out of life than RPW They are...they want sex with the LEAST possible effort, and there are women who willingly and cheaply provide sex. This is why a TRUE RPW is different and easily stands above every other woman.

[–]Atomicbebe 8 points9 points  (1 child)

I don't understand why guys want women to chase them, to me that seems blue pillish.