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If any of you hens find TRP to be a little too raw...(crosspost from TRP) (self.RedPillWomen)

submitted by SoftHarem

http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1x0gln/the_five_stages_of_red_pill_and_how_to_read_rtrp/

Also, the original

http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/07/25/the-5-stages-of-unplugging/

"I'm probably not the first person to observe that taking the red pill is a gradual process, and that the loss of illusions, like any other loss, initiates a grieving process.

But it's worth pointing out that psychology's general "five stages" model of the grieving process applies to TRP.

  1. Denial: "Women aren't like that! They're people just like everyone else! Treat them all as individuals, and you're sure to find the right one!"

  2. Anger: "WTF! Bitches are all like this! They have no honour, no loyalty, and they don't really love anyone but themselves! Fucking cunts!"

  3. Bargaining: "If I work real hard and learn all the pickup moves, then at least I'll get laid."

  4. Depression: "Getting laid by shallow, obnoxious women has become dull and unrewarding. And there's no sense looking for a unicorn. Maybe I'll just be MGTOW for a while."

  5. Acceptance: "Women aren't bad. My expectations of them, and theirs of me, were based on faulty premises. They are creatures of instinct, just like I am... but of different instincts. If I learn what those instincts are, and teach them about mine, we can develop realistic expectations of each other and get along just fine."

If we really want to understand what gets written here, in its proper context, we need to understand that most "Red Pill Theory" posts will belong to one of these five stages. Each stage has value, because to reach a later one, you must go through the earlier ones. And, as in grieving, the progress through is seldom linear, smooth, uniform, and one-directional.

But to understand each post in context, it helps to mentally decide which stage it belongs to, and read it with that in mind.

This is why concern trolling and tone policing have no place here. Not because extremism is our banner (we have no banner, we are not a crusade), but because venting, discussing and understanding anger is a legitimate part of phase 2. Saying that women aren't worth hanging about with, even for sex, is part of phase 4.

If I were to say "don't be so angry" to someone who comes here to say "all women are bitches and whores", then I would be interrupting his process of coming to terms with the loss of his illusions. It would be far better for me to tell him that his feelings are important (because feels actually sometimes are important), and that his anger is not bottomless, and that it will eventually run dry.

So when I read a text post here, some red pill theory, some rant, I just say to myself "stage 2". Or "stage 3". Or "stage 5". And then I continue reading. Because they are all useful. Even if I am (mostly) over my own anger, understanding other men's anger helps me, because it teaches me more about where the disconnect between reality and our expectations occurs.

But to anyone who doesn't understand that TRP posts come from different stages of the process... well, a lot of what's written here just isn't going to make sense. "

Even though this fella got himself banned from RPW he knows his RP theory. This should help clear up some of the confusion concerning the relationship between TRP and RPW, and why TRP can come off so brutally at times. Most of the new men are stuck in stages 1 and 2. 3 are your plate spinners, 4 are your MGTOW, and 5 are the men who have LTR potential - the ones who you would want to attract. If you're unfamiliar with any of these concepts I suggest you go read the following.

http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1u6m3m/the_basics_explained_and_our_direction_for_2014/

-SH


[–]wendy-fly1 Star 17 points18 points  (4 children)

That makes a lot of sense, thank you for the post.

I don't go over to TRP because it makes me want to argue and I believe people should have their own space to talk and discuss without an outside running in and saying 'NO! That's not right!'. It would be like walking into someone's house and criticizing the decor- rude. I hope all of those RP gentlemen find what they are looking for and what will make them truly happy long term.

[–]SoftHarem[S] 9 points10 points  (3 children)

While I respect your wishes to give men their space - here I am invading yours. Honestly it is not that big of a deal to contribute in TRP discussions. As long as you aren't any sort of feminist (obviously not a as a RPW) and are fairly pleasant in your discussions all the guys are cool.

[–]wendy-fly1 Star 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Hahaha, no you are a mod! That's a good point though, I really like it when the guys come over and give their perspective.

[–]pinkantlersEndorsed Contributor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Where I'm at with this is similar to wendy-fly to be honest. But please don't think you're invading our space - this post is extremely helpful and your contributions are certainly welcome. I kinda feel like there's so many female spaces where women can talk openly to each other about their feelings, but guys get a raw deal in that respect.

[–]DoxasticPoo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah. I'm with him.

The signal is of most importance at TRP, not the sex of the poster.

Hell, I have no literal proof any one poster at TRP is even a man!

So long as the signal is aligned and your opposition brings something to the discussion, there should be no reason you can't contribute.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[deleted]

[–]DoxasticPoo 6 points7 points  (0 children)

many of these men (or even still boys to me) haven't grown up

You hit the nail on the head. Part of the problem in today's world is us men were raised by women, but women have no idea how to raise a boy into a man.

So we never "grew up". And mentally there are still a lot of childish behaviors and beliefs. Part of why TRP feels like a place only for men is if we're going to "grow up" we're going to have to do with men, not women.

Part of taking the redpill is definitely growing up.

now I feel slightly voyeuristic when I read through the comments

This gave me an internet chubby... :)

[–]FleetingWishEndorsed Contributor 10 points11 points  (5 children)

I used to feel sad about the things that were said in the red pill because it made me feel bad that men were so mad at women, and by extension me. Now I mostly just feel bad that most of them have been treated so horribly by women. I don't want them to be miserable anymore. I want to give them hope, and by being the best woman I can be, the kind of woman that makes them see that we can have value.

As far as going there, I don't really, not so much because I'm afraid or sad, but mostly because it's not a space for me. What they have to offer is valuable to men, but not so much for me. Similarly, I, as a woman, have nothing to offer them. If they are seeking something from me, they are welcome to come here anytime.

[–]Offensive_Brute 4 points5 points  (4 children)

Thanks for caring. It does make a difference. I was hard MGTOW until I met this sweet church girl who liked knitting and blushed when I said something dirty. She was engaged, so it never went beyond acquaintenceship, but seeing that women like that could still be found gave me a reason to not write off women all together.

[–]DoxasticPoo 0 points1 point  (3 children)

How did you get "RP Man" as a flair? I can't seem to figure that out.

[–]Offensive_Brute 0 points1 point  (2 children)

i'm not sure if you're serious or if you're trying to start something... LOL

[–]DoxasticPoo 0 points1 point  (1 child)

LOL... I'm serious. I looked around and couldn't find the option.

I figured it might be good for people to know I'm a dude.

[–]Offensive_Brute 0 points1 point  (0 children)

its something the mods stamped me with for being a regular in both subs.

[–][deleted]  (26 children)

[deleted]

[–]SoftHarem[S] 11 points12 points  (13 children)

You're welcome, LM. Honestly, women should feel intimidated when they come into the locker room. However that doesn't mean you can't say your piece. Our only issue is when women start demanding we police our language or tone around them. TRP is one of the few spaces men have to speak their minds, but that doesn't mean it is a Men only club. Men speak to men much differently than they speak to women, typically. Uncensored male thoughts are not exactly PC, and TRP is mostly men speaking to men so that's the culture of the sub.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (2 children)

My username is clearly female though and iv had times where I start getting attacked or all manor of sillyness. Or that RPW dont exist because AWALT. Then upon explanation they just accused me of concern trolling. So I gave up on TRP as well. Unsubbed so I dont try to join discussions anymore haha. If they are going to be angry all the time I might as well stay over here, regardless of whether I was in the wrong or not. Not going in that locker room anymore.

[–]SoftHarem[S] 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Fair enough. Some the guys are just angry, and a lot of the MGTOW crowd want nothing to do with women so you may have gotten some unnecessary flack just for being one. I'm not saying it's right, but it does come with the territory until they fully convert. It does take a thick skin to objectively discuss the topics in TRP, so I by no means blame women who want to stay here.

[–][deleted]  (9 children)

[deleted]

    [–]SoftHarem[S] 5 points6 points  (8 children)

    I think cross-community support is paramount for the overall health, and growth of our respective communities. Obviously you RPW would probably feel more comfortable in threads pertaining to relationships, but there is a wealth of knowledge in many of the highly upvoted threads in TRP. You may not feel very comfortable with the delivery of many of the ideas, but the ideas still stand strong on their own merit.

    [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (2 children)

    It's great that you think it's important, but I get the feeling a significant portion of TRP do not share your opinion. :(

    [–]Sabetsu 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    I post whatever I feel like. I'm not in a relationship with them, so I don't have to be submissive to them. However, I'm not encroaching on them and emasculating them, either.

    [–]dancing_junkie 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I'm fully comfortable with any discussion brought over there. As just finding the "sister" sub i'll be more likely to be checking out the talk over here.

    [–][deleted]  (4 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]DoxasticPoo 2 points3 points  (3 children)

      Maybe have a RPM, RPW and TRP? Where RPM is a place just for men. Where you should expect a poster to... well, act like a man. We fight, attack, defend with force, only accept reason, etc...

      Yet at the same time, Woman's insight is helpful. So I can't see why we'd completely run ya'll out of town (so to speak).

      And this is coming from a MGTOW!

      [–][deleted]  (2 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]DoxasticPoo 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        Exactly

        [–]rhettdu 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        It's a nice idea but I don't think the blokes are going to like being turfed out and corralled into new reddit, especially if its to that the women will feel more comfortable posting there.

        It would be easier to make a RPM+W than to repurpose TRP and start a new RPM

        [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (11 children)

        You'd burst into flames if you met my husband lol

        [–][deleted]  (10 children)

        [deleted]

          [–]porcellus_ultor 11 points12 points  (7 children)

          but these guys can be sooo spiteful

          What's most jarring is how spiteful some of the RP men can be toward each other. Some guys seem to have never passed Posting Etiquette 101, and others are more interesting in posturing like pack animals ("I'm an alpha, you're a beta, grrrrr."), but the worst are the guys who are total dicks to newcomers. Every so often some jerkbag pipes up in a "Help, I'm new here but I've been dumped and my world is falling apart" post with something that when boiled down to its core message reads: "You're not RP enough. I'm the big bad wolf. Why don't you know as much as I do, newfag?" It's supposed to be a community, not a contest to rack up the most points the fastest. You're supposed to be discussing things, not biting at each other like 40 rats in a 10-rat-capacity cage. But I guess that's how some dudes do masculine posturing.

          [–]marlybarrow 6 points7 points  (3 children)

          What you described is a hierarchy.

          A few years back I joined a military forum where soldiers and ex soldiers would discuss and advise on all things military, and it was quite similar in its brutal administration. Those who were most knowledgeable were given due respect and those who spoke out of turn or expounded on subjects they had little expertise in were put in their place. And not just by the Administrators or the leaders, but everyone, including the novices who had committed themselves to earning the respect of the men in the communnity.

          This is how men work. TRP environment is amplified by the users emotionally and violently rejecting everything they had accepted in good faith and you have a place that a woman might not find safe.

          If you are interested in what TRP has to say, I would advise you to read and lurk, but to refrain from posting unless what you have to say is relevant and you can deal with the abuse a few posters will send your way.

          [–]porcellus_ultor 0 points1 point  (2 children)

          A few years back I joined a military forum where soldiers and ex soldiers would discuss and advise on all things military, and it was quite similar in its brutal administration. Those who were most knowledgeable were given due respect and those who spoke out of turn or expounded on subjects they had little expertise in were put in their place. And not just by the Administrators or the leaders, but everyone, including the novices who had committed themselves to earning the respect of the men in the communnity.

          My fiance is ex-Navy, so I see a lot of this with him and his friends. (Especially when you get Navy, Army, and Marines together... then the sparks fly.) The worst I've seen is the "I saw real combat, you're just a greenhorn fobbit" shit, but it never reaches the snarly jerk-baggery that discussions on TRP can fall prey to.

          ... but I think I figured it out. Since TRP is all about mating strategy (whether finding a long-term partner or something far less permanent), the drive to posture and assert dominance and/or masculinity is multiplied tenfold. A lot of the guys are just roaming around on the subreddit like lions out on the Savannah, roaring and testing each other's mettle in a constantly shifting battle for a limited amount of mates and territory.

          [–]marlybarrow 2 points3 points  (1 child)

          Not...quite.

          They don't see each other as competitors, more like a similarly cheated, never met brother-in-arms. Their betrayal at the hands of society and the women in their lives creates a bond of shared experience. This bond is reinforced by a desire, propogated through the group, reinforced by the hierarchy, of constant self improvement and of never putting yourself in a position where you can be taken advantage of again. This standard is adhered to because it is in everyones interest to keep the discourse in the subreddit at a high level and the focus on what matters. Thus, the noob asking dumbfuck questions gets told off and the poster exploring new areas of Red Pill Theory gets voted to the top of the page.

          It's not RP man vs RP man in the pursuit of women.

          It's RP men vs everybody else with the goal of safeguarding the mans dignity and independence.

          [–]pickup_sticks 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          more like a similarly cheated, never met brother-in-arms

          Eh, sometimes. I got called mangina more than once for disputing a point even though I agree with 80% of TRP. No actual argument, just epithets.

          [–]YouDislikeMyOpinion 7 points8 points  (0 children)

          Oh how wrong you are.

          "Help, I'm new here but I've been dumped and my world is falling apart"

          You mean: "Help, I'm new, I didn't look at any sidebar material, I've literally done 0 reading, I want you to do the work for me and tell me everything I need to know"

          You see, that behavior should not be encouraged or tolerated. Behavior such as reading, learning, understanding, and really taking effort to get your life to a better place should be encouraged.

          I am not here to do these people's work for them, and the sooner they find out that they are completely fucked unless they pull up their own pants, the better for them. I am ultimately here for myself. Whoever I help along the way gets something out of it. I am not going to sacrifice for that person. No one worth their weight is going to sacrifice for that person. People have shit to do, lives to live. I'm not going to sit here and be a therapist for these people. I am not going to take out 2 hours of my day to write up a fully personalized detailed reply, spoon feeding him all of the information he can find if he just took a couple of minutes to search the subreddit. I have time for maybe 1 or two quick posts. And they better have done the leg work for me so I can just come in there and tell them exactly what they need to know.

          "Help, my wife left me, I read X, Y, and Z and I think this was the problem. This is what I have done so far, and these are my next steps. How can I refine my approach?"

          This will make it much easier for me to reply and point out specific inconsistencies / errors in the person's judgement and actions.

          As for what I personally think of people that find themselves in the "low-effort" pool of people, sure their reasons can be valid for why they find themselves in that predicament. But in my opinion, I don't care. They want out of their shitty life, they are going to have to pull their pants up. And if they don't and no one helps them, then they will serve to be good deterrents for future like-minded individuals.

          [–]Offensive_Brute 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          others are more interesting in posturing like pack animals ("I'm an alpha, you're a beta, grrrrr."), but the worst are the guys who are total dicks to newcomers.

          but this is essentially how men are with one another. No new friends is not a thing invented by Drake. This is how many men are and have always been. Excess men who don't bring anything to the table are an undesirable element in a social group. Its a very primitive pack animal mentality that i'm sure predates humanity. Ever see that show Merekat Manor? They did the same shit.

          [–]SoftHarem[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

          I started as a purplepill "natural" and had lots of success with women, attractive women, before I had read one article or post about TRP and I was still pissed. Imagine if I had been a virgin or had an extremely low partner count going through life with my nice guy strategy of getting what little affection I could from women. The marketplace is BRUTAL in this dating economy, so I can't really blame these men for their anger when I have personally never experienced even half of the lies they've lived under.

          [–]Mrswhiskers 9 points10 points  (58 children)

          Why do they say women have no honor or loyalty? Do we really not? I understand lots of women are crazy but I can't see that we have no loyalty or honor. Could I get examples if you agree with that?

          [–][deleted]  (54 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]SoftHarem[S] 8 points9 points  (53 children)

            Honor is a male abstract, and women are only loyal to their emotions. Sure, you feel like you'd never cheat or leave your man, but if his frame slipped for whatever reason you'd naturally start evaluating other options. Granted, if he corrected the issue and restored attraction it would probably salvage the relationship. This is hypergamy in a nutshell, and being that it is an evolutionary trait it is neither good nor bad. RP men understand this and maintain a strong frame in order to balance it out. Many relationship issues originate when a man gets too comfortable (Betas out) and stops gaming his woman.

            [–]pickup_sticks 14 points15 points  (28 children)

            Yeah, but guys cheat at least as much as women too. Where is their honor?

            [–]marlybarrow 8 points9 points  (12 children)

            If we assume that a man gives his commitment and resources in exchange for sex, loyalty and love then you would see that a man having sex outside the relationship is not ntearly as bad as a woman having sex outside of the relationship.

            A woman that has sex with other men is viewed poorly because she is giving away for free to others what she requires at a price from her partner

            The reciprocal would be if the man prioritised the wellbeing and needs of another woman as he continued to monopolise access to your body.

            I don't know if what I said is relevant to you, just thought I'd clarify.

            [–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (1 child)

            If a man has sex outside the relationship he is risking the creation of a commitment and drain on resources isn't he?

            [–]marlybarrow 3 points4 points  (0 children)

            For a man, it is the sex itself. The thought of his gf fucking another guy and accepting his cum is a painful one.

            For women, (correct me if I'm wrong) it is the thought of being abandoned by her man, of losing him to another woman and have him direct his attention and resources elsewhere that causes angst. It's not so much the sexual cheating, it's what the sexual cheating could realistically lead to.

            If a man has sex outside the relationship he is risking the creation of a commitment and drain on resources isn't he? Could be. But many times the man has had a fling and kept it away from his marriage and family.

            I dunno, I am now officially, talking out of my ass.

            [–]pickup_sticks 2 points3 points  (8 children)

            On a purely rational/economic analysis you have a case. But in terms of emotions that have evolved over eons and drive human behavior, which is what TRP purports to be all about, I don't think you can use statistics to prove that one partner cheating is worse than another.

            [–]marlybarrow 1 point2 points  (7 children)

            When I use words like:

            giving away for free requires at a price monopolise access

            I am speaking about the biological tradeoffs we have evolved to make.

            The whole purpose of life is to pass on our genetic material to the next generation. That is what we have evolved to do.

            A man cheating on his woman isn't so bad because she is certain of passing on her genes so long as her children grow up to fend for themselves. Thus, our female ancestors didn't give as much of a shit if her man fucked other women, so long as he took care of his kids wellbeing and afforded them his protection. It's the loss of the mans loyalty and resources that hurt, not so much the act of sex.

            A man won't be so forgiving when it comes to cheating, because not only does it greatly increase the chance of his sperm not being the one that fertilises the egg, but it also means he risks putting in effort, time and energy into raising and protecting children that aren't his.

            [–]pickup_sticks 2 points3 points  (4 children)

            We evolved to survive and procreate, I agree. But the algorithm that drives that behavior is emotions - love, lust etc. You can rationalize that, according to evolutionary theory men are more hurt emotionally by cheating than women are, but I see no evidence that this is the case. Honestly it sounds like hamstering to me.

            [–]ControlBlue 0 points1 point  (3 children)

            algorithm

            Big word, 'tools' would be better.

            There is a reason why polygamy has been the norm of many civilizations, the alpha male spreading the genetic material that ended up in a successful individual (one that succeeded at not getting screwed, or better prospering), coupled with the selection on the females the alpha will choose, coupled together will produce better offspring. Emotions are just being used by nature to ensure this process occurs.

            And since emotions are being used in this, is it much of a stretch to assume they would be rigged to discourage the opposite happening aka a female having multiple partners, if the fact that females can only spread their genes one partner at a time isn't enough, we can assume the sometimes-violent desire for exclusivity of the males and the extreme cases of jealousy or feeling of worthlessness are manifestations of this.

            [–]pickup_sticks 1 point2 points  (2 children)

            At this point we're down to nurture vs. nurture vs. culture, which is fine by me, and I won't try to argue one view over the other. I'll leave that to books like Sex at Dawn.

            My main issue, to bring us back to the title of this thread, is that at times the "raw" nature of TRP turns into a circle jerk in which guys crow about honor and, by extension, how much "better" men are than women. Any woman reading this should know that there are alternative purple-ish views that acknowledge differences between men and women without judging the majority of women as immoral, lying skanks.

            [–]KyfhoMyoba 1 point2 points  (1 child)

            In other words, when a man cheats in a ONS and never sees her again, his behavior does not threaten his mate's reproductive strategy - she still gets his DNA, his resources and assistance in caring for the kids. When a woman cheats, she strikes a near fatal blow at her mate's reproductive strategy, his resources are going to support another mans kid. And in modern western society, with its totally fucked up feminist courts it's even worse than in ancient times.

            [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            This 100%

            [–]SoftHarem[S] 1 point2 points  (14 children)

            Not all men have it, which is why it is considered a male abstract.

            [–]pickup_sticks 3 points4 points  (13 children)

            It's not uncommon to hear a woman described as faithful and loving. But they don't have honor?

            Edit: my point is that it's all well and good to say men aspire to be honorable and women don't, but if you look at the actual behavior of both sexes you can't draw any conclusions that's it a true gender difference.

            [–]SoftHarem[S] 1 point2 points  (12 children)

            No, they may have a version of honor, but this is typically emulated from her man. Men have honor because of their individual set of principles and ethics, while women have "honor" because it will net them appreciation and approval from their man.

            [–]pickup_sticks 3 points4 points  (11 children)

            So if the guy cheats, the woman will just say "great, now I get to cheat too" or will she dump the guy? My best is on the latter.

            This issue is turtles all the way down. You're basically saying honor is a social construct which men and women both violate at predictable rates, with men slightly more often than men according to the numbers I've seen. TRP claims to be about a combo of evolutionary theory, sociology and, most important, what works. If there is no material difference, in terms of actual outward behavior, between men and women on this issue, it's a red herring.

            If it makes a guy feel better to say "women don't have a sense of honor," more power to him. But note that it's just a feeling, not something objectively measured, which is something RP guys generally scoff at.

            [–]DoxasticPoo 1 point2 points  (2 children)

            If it makes a guy feel better to say "women don't have a sense of honor," more power to him. But note that it's just a feeling, not something objectively measured, which is something RP guys generally scoff at.

            This line of reasoning is actually well thought out. And it's the type of opposition that should be more present at TRP.

            And you're right. Many guys do this just to feel better.

            However, once the veil of emotions has lifted, the truth remains.

            Honor, like love, may be different between us men and women. And I'd like to leave that as a possibility to further discuss.

            To men, honor is doing the right thing. Putting yourself above others. Sacrificing for the greater good. And recognizing that sacrifice.

            This is an evolutionary byproduct of men going to war. Men who went to war were "honorable", those who didn't were "cowards".

            Honor meant something to the effect of "worthy of recognition". And how men received that recognition was going to war.

            Since women weren't going to war, they weren't worthy of recognition in that way.

            So... what is meant by the phrase, "Honor thy Father and Mother"? Surely this can't be the same type of "honor" we speak of regarding a war vet.

            And it's not. This type of honor is about being loyal and respectful. It's not about sacrifice, but the recognition of authority.

            So back in the day when women said, "Honor your husband". It wasn't about sacrificing for him, it was about recognizing his authority.

            So women don't have a sense of honor in the first regard, because ya'll weren't fighting.

            Women can have it in the second regard. HOWEVER, it's not innate. Men had to force women into honoring them by creating a society that made women dependent on men.

            Now that we have feminism, there is no reason to "recognize man's authority". So women do not have to honor their husband. Honor for a woman has always be forced upon them.

            However, you RPW seem to take a different route. By consciously saying, "I will honor my [husband, BF, etc..]" you are bringing back a sense of honor within women.

            However, again, this isn't innate. And I get the feeling it's because you don't want the responsibility of making decisions. It's not because you just have it, you chose to have it. So you can choose not to have it.

            Many men don't have that choice. It's just in us.

            So... honor has a couple different "definitions". One is about sacrifice for the greater good. The other is about loyalty to authority. And the two do relate.

            But evolution has made it so only some men have both senses of honor. Your hypergamy makes your sense of honor conditional, like love. You'll honor your husband so long as.... [fill in the blanks]

            [–]pickup_sticks 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            Eh, maybe. I think you're right from a cultural perspective, but I think it would be really hard to prove honor exists at the evolutionary level. It's only since the agricultural revolution that going off to war is even a thing - why conquer territory unless you expect to grow crops on it? And the ag revolution is only 20,000 years old, which is not much time for selection pressure to exert itself.

            Plus, what about the cowards who only pretended to be honorable, but sacrificed their fellow soldiers so that they may live? And perhaps the most honorable, since they believe in self-sacrifice, are also mostly like to die in combat?

            I'm not saying either of those questions are true, just that culture and evolution are so entangled that I don't think you can make definitive statements.

            And there's also evidence that pre-Ag societies were much less monogamous. For a woman, having a child was an extremely dangerous thing to do, regardless of the father, and most children did not make it out of childhood.

            So it's hard for me to get caught up in vague, hard-to-measure concepts like honor in the face of much more measurable things like ability to survive childbirth.

            [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            I remember reading about compliance tests. How they told people to continue subjecting someone to electric shocks, even when the person started begging. And most people complied. I bet "doing the right thing" and having personal, solid principles is in some people, but it's not in most people. Most people do what everyone else does, or what authority tells them to do. I suppose it's just human nature, and it takes a lot of work to actually form a personal set of principles that make you do the right thing despite everything. Now I wonder if there is a gender difference.

            Maybe it's important not to forget that men are told sacrificing themselves for this and that is their reality. And that is why I don't view self-sacrifice as an obvious sign of being principled. If there is a banality of evil, surely a banality of good can also happen?

            [–]SoftHarem[S] 0 points1 point  (7 children)

            You're equating honor simply with cheating. I'm speaking of honor as the male abstract that it is. I don't care if men and women equally cheat or not. Your entire argument is a red herring.

            [–]pickup_sticks 6 points7 points  (6 children)

            TRP is obsessed with the cock carousel and cheating by women, especially if it involves hamstering. They talk about that way more than vague notions of honor. Trying to redefine honor in a ways that makes a guy feel good and better than women is just a male form of hamstering.

            [–]Inexplicably_Hostile 6 points7 points  (2 children)

            "Women are only loyal to their emotions."

            I think that's a misconception, not about women but about men. You guys are highly emotional but you don't realize it because of a combination of factors. First, you don't think about your emotions like women do and are therefore not as self aware. Second, you are taught from a very young age to suppress your emotions. Outwardly you succeed but inwardly you have no idea how much your emotions are clouding your thought processe. I've seen guys do the craziest mental gymnastics to satisfy their emotions without even realizing and all the time they maintain their tough unemotional facade. Lastly, many of you are absolutely convinced that you aren't emotional. I don't know what causes it but most guys find it very difficult to admit that they are emotionally biased. I actually think men would probably be better actualized if they were more in touch with their emotions.

            You didn't really define honor so I have no way of evaluating that statement. Aside from that what evolutionary benefits does honor provide?

            [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            This is a very good case for men not being less emotional than women: http://www.angryharry.com/esAreMenMoreEmotionalThanWomen.htm?note And it's written by an MRA. And it makes emotions look like a neutral (often positive), rather than ridiculous thing.

            [–][deleted]  (4 children)

            [deleted]

              [–]SoftHarem[S] 6 points7 points  (2 children)

              I am curious, though. IYO, what is the difference between loyalty amongst men and loyalty between a man and his partner, from the man's point of view?

              I'm not sure there is that much of a difference in this context. A truly honorable man would jump on a grenade for his brother in arms just as quickly as he would his loving wife.

              If his wife or girlfriend has changed during the relationship, how does honor and loyalty come into play on the man's end of it?

              Usually committed RP men, because of their loyalty and honor, will stick around more often and attempt to work on the issue. First with comfort and support, and then they will escalate to Dread Game. If all else fails it is probably time for him to let her go.

              I see a lot of talk about dumping her right quick for a better model, right?

              Typically those are men discussing plates which is not relevant to RPW at all. A lot of the confusion is because TRP is compromised of such a diverse community. So many men with so many different sexual strategies. Here at RPW there is only one sexual strategy which somewhat puts the two communities at odds when people aren't aware of the bigger picture.

              What is the difference, from your perspective, between this and a woman losing interest in her guy because he is taking her for granted?

              If the man isn't performing well at his job then she has every right to discuss it with him or if it can't be reconciled she will move on. The only difference I see is that committed RP men will typically stick around longer as they do not have that biological drive of hypergamy pulling at their senses.

              [–]cat_fox 2 points3 points  (1 child)

              Got it. The confusion is there; terms and acronyms still being learned...

              [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (15 children)

              (coming out of lurk mode for a second) I agree with SoftHarem here. Honor is absolutely a male abstract, and the only comparison I can make is giving birth.

              A man could dress up like a pregnant woman, he could study it, he could spend a lifetime contemplating it and trying to understand what giving birth feels like, but he's NEVER going to know what it's like to give birth.

              Honor is like that. I've never seen a woman yet who experiences the concept correctly.

              [–][deleted]  (10 children)

              [deleted]

                [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (5 children)

                For my comment, I was only speaking on honor. I'm of the personal opinion that Softharem is correct in saying

                and women are only loyal to their emotions

                and to elaborate, I have seen loyalty in women, but it's inspired by the man: A man seems to be able to choose loyalty without inspiration.

                That may be poorly said: I should say I have not seen loyalty in a woman for a man who has a consistently worthless frame.

                [–][deleted]  (3 children)

                [deleted]

                  [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                  Lady, think historically. Men which didn't display honor and loyalty to other men probably got killed. Women who displayed disloyalty and dishonor to other women were likely rewarded by poaching the best mates at least for breeding sexy sons

                  Honor is really a warrior virtue. I think men know women have VERSIONS of honor, loyalty, integrity etc, but that these are very different that what men experience with comrades in arms and by extension other men

                  [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                  [deleted]

                    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    Watch more war movies lol

                    [–]DoxasticPoo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    A man seems to be able to choose loyalty without inspiration.

                    I would go further and say, "despite inspiration to do the dishonorable."

                    Many men will be dishonorable. But many, many, many others throughout the history of time have done the honorable thing despite wanting to not.

                    Honor is inspired in a woman. But many men will be inspired to be dishonorable, yet still choose to be honorable. They will forego their personal desire because they know it's the right thing to do.

                    [–]AerobusTRP MOD 1 point2 points  (3 children)

                    What you described is a woman being loyal to her emotions. She feels attraction to her SO and loves the way she feels when she is with him, hence she sticks around him though those hard times.

                    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                    [deleted]

                      [–]SoftHarem[S] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                      Hypergamy is in your DNA, and the only way to deal with it is balance. Balance comes from a high value man with a strong frame who builds so much attraction she never feels the need to upgrade. A man looking at some random piece of trim walking by is on the same instinctual level as a woman being attracted to a man who is higher value than her partner. It is normal, natural, and all we can do is balance it out by maintaining attraction.

                      [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                      [deleted]

                        [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                        Concerning honor, I'm going to defer to something known as Lao Tzu's dictum:

                        "He who knows, cannot say: He who says, cannot know."

                        I know that sounds like garbage, consider the parable that goes along with it :

                        Lao-Tzu's followers were all in a room arguing over what his dictum meant. He walked into the room, and a follower asked him to explain it. He replied, "Who here has smelled a rose?" And they all acknowledged that they had. Then he said, "Ok, so you know the smell. Now describe it." They all fell silent.

                        I could get into horizontal vs vertical honor, or go send you to read the book "Iron John" by Robert Bly but the end result is that any description I put on it will be essentially mute. This is because from the time you were a small child, your social interaction has been driven by estrogen, and not testosterone, and due to that you will not be able to know the scent of the rose so to speak.

                        As for loyalty, I think it's been described aptly above in other comments. There is loyalty in women, it's just a different type of loyalty. And that in large part is why there is a lot of anger from younger or less experienced men in TRP. They are furious and feel betrayed that women are not loyal in the same way men are, and they deem women's loyalty as inferior.

                        They are wrong in the sense that women's loyalty is inferior, it is merely different. By men's standards, it is inferior but women are not men. They don't yet realize that the loyalty they seek is not the loyalty of a man, but the loyalty of a woman.

                        When they realize that, they will be happy that things are the way that they are.

                        [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                        Excellent! Delurk more!

                        [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                        [deleted]

                          [–]Mrswhiskers 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                          So we have no honor or loyalty to men?

                          [–]cat_fox 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          Would depend on the context. We're talking about sexual relationships between men and women. Not loyalty to the team at work, etc. I'm sure THAT could be debated too, but I'm not gonna go there at the moment.

                          What softharem says above about men getting too comfortable is absolutely true, at least in my experience. Had it happen early on in my own relationship with my husband, before we were married. Luckily we figured it out before too much damage was done.

                          [–]paperbats 4 points5 points  (5 children)

                          Interesting perspective...sadly hilarious that the 5 stages of grief can be applied to it. I enjoy a lot of the content on TRP and really like some of the guys over there, but I am hesitant to post. There seem to be a lot of guys stuck on stage 2. Sometimes I feel the urge to defend my gender/myself, but then I realize that my reason tends to be NAWALT. Overall, though, I like the tone of TRP because it does feel so genuine and not like the rest of reddit feel-good BS.

                          [–]Offensive_Brute 6 points7 points  (3 children)

                          It really is a form of grief though. The nice guy, the beta male, the white knight, wants nothing more than to love and be loved by a good woman. When all you want is love and to be loved and that very desire precludes you from getting what you want, and you find that you have to harden your heart to get what you want.

                          Its like a Genie that deliberately fucks up your wishes. In order to get the love of a woman you have to destroy the part of yourself that most appreciates a womans love. Its a cruel and bitter transformation, theres no joy in it until you start getting TRP results. Even then, the romantic will always harbor some resentment because he would be roundly rejected if he expressed his true feelings in all their intensity.

                          [–]paperbats 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                          In order to get the love of a woman you have to destroy the part of yourself that most appreciates a woman's love.

                          Very poignant. It sucks that some have to go through this.

                          [–]DoxasticPoo 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                          Yeah... men are truly romantics when it comes down to it.

                          I remember once, there was a girl I was kind of dating in my blue-pill days. And I really, really liked her.

                          She came over to watch some Arrested Development and laid in my bed while I sat in a leather chair I have in my bedroom. After waaaaay to long of not making a move, I finally jumped in bed with her.

                          And we laid together. With her head on my chest. Breathing in time with each other. Laughing in time.... it was awesome.

                          We banged that night and it didn't help our relationship. I told her how I could have been perfectly happy holding her all night rather than fucking, and it drove her off.

                          She just wanted to get pounded. That's it.

                          And I just wanted to hold her.

                          These are the things we have to grieve. This is what we have to let go of. And it sucks.

                          But it's a good thing. Because holding onto these fantasies keeps us from living in the real world. And at the end of the day, the real world is best, because at least it's real.

                          [–]paperbats 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          That must have been devastating. I want to pat your hand and tell you NAWALT, but like you said, embracing reality and all that.

                          [–]idonttalkmuchreally 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          I echo your feeling here and interestingly enough the stages can be applied to just about any thought process. I enjoy reading TRP because it makes me sad, angry, frustrated, hopeful, and confused all at once, but refrain from comment because I generally have nothing useful to add. Mostly, it makes me glad that I am not on the market....

                          [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children)

                          i wander there from time to time to scold someone for bad history or tell someone not to be a dumbfuck but it's kind of fruitless since they don't ever learn to google something and correct themselves before posting. overall i think they're ok, a bit silly though.

                          [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

                          That is a repulsive way to react to the pain of those men and I hope you don't intend to bring that attitude here

                          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          so it's repulsive to point out bad history? I thought TRP was about realz before feelz.

                          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          I actually saw these stages in one of my girlfriends. As a future psychologist, it's always nice to know how these sorts of things work, especially since the process is nonlinear and can take ages.

                          [–]10yrs_to_the_day 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          My boyfriend just linked me to this yesterday! It was a good way to put things in perspective. Good idea to repost :)

                          [–]scallopkidEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          I didn't realize this sub was so at odds with trp. Idk how /u/whisper got banned but I really like his contributions.

                          I usually read most of the threads in trp as well as rpw, they have funny comments and interesting content.