THEORYLow SMV and You (self.RedPillWomen)

submitted by FleetingWishEndorsed Contributor

Let me start with an anecdote.

I know someone who is morbidly obese. I don't know what her SMV would actually be to men, but they certainly don't give her the time of day. She doesn't register on their radar, and I would guess her SMV is a 3 according to this diagram. But regardless of where she is in the 1-3 range, she is solidly in the "nope" zone for most men.

Yet, she is happily married in the happiest marriage I have ever seen. She has a husband who is is a good provider while she is (mostly) a SAHM. He is charming, great around the house, a good father and a good leader. He is the type of man you can count on and trust. She loves and respects him, and together they make a pretty good team. It is a naturally red-pill, but neither of them are red-pill-aware.

She was able to get this man, despite being the same size the day she got married. But here's the catch, he is obese too.

When I watch them, both of them are fully invested in their relationship. While I don't find either of them physically attractive, they do. Neither of them feel dissatisfied or short changed in their relationship.

I tell this story, not to tell you about what is probable, because it may not be, but to tell you about what is possible. I've watched this relationship for a while, wondering if it defied the rules of The Red Pill. But it really doesn't, because while they are about evenly equated in SMV, they are also about equally equated in RMV. They are both realistic people who are not only satisfied with their life partner, they are thrilled. She looks at him and see someone she respects and admires, and he looks at her and see someone he cares about.

In The Red Pill, it is important that we do not ignore reality. In reality some people are low SMV, beyond their control. If what is making you less attractive is within your control, you should not take this as permission to not do something about it. But, if you are in the unfortunate set of people who have deformities that are unfixable, do the best with what you have but also be realistic with what you can get. Learn to look beyond someone's look for their value, and remember to have value beyond your looks. Your RMV is under your control, and if you are able to get that high, you will be able to get a relationship with someone with a high RMV. You may not be able to get a relationship with a hot doctor, but you could still be able to get the acne-scarred science teacher. As long as you are able to be positive and see his value, beyond his looks, there are many low SMV men who have great things to offer.

TD;DR Don't give up because you're ugly.

[–]NittanyLioness84 25 points26 points  (3 children)

In The Red Pill, it is important that we do not ignore reality.


[–]testmypatience -1 points0 points  (2 children)

Dey gunna cash dou sooner or later. /joke relating to the video about that girl with the crazy accent on facebook lately

[–]NittanyLioness84 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Salt baes and cash me ousside

[–]testmypatience 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That is exactly the one I was talking about. ROFL

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Thank you for this story! This is an example of being realistic with your expectations.

[–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And ties right in with my most recent post about realistic expectations.

[–][deleted]  (26 children)


[–]VigilantRedRoosterModerator 17 points18 points  (24 children)

Relationship market value. What you bring to the table besides physical appearance. Attitude, nurturing, home-making, faithfulness are some factors. Sometimes, I look at the total package of a less-pretty woman with a smile, thinking, "She looks like excellent wife material!"

[–]pewpsprinkler 10 points11 points  (19 children)

The problem is that for 99% of the women you see out in the world, you know nothing about them beyond their looks. Looks matter more than anything, because unless that woman's looks are enough to get you motivated to try to get to know her better, none of her other traits even matter.

I disagree with the OPs premise that uncurable ugly exists. While jaw dropping beauty may be out of reach, 99% of women out there could reach a "good enough" 7/10 or so. For the vast majority of those "uglies", it is simply a matter of losing weight. Obesity is a huge problem in this country.

For the rest of women who, despite getting into shape, are being held back by their face, well, there are two approaches to this: first, proper/tasteful use of makeup can mitigate a lot of problem faces, and second, for those women who have serious issues, cosmetic surgery is a very viable option. If you watched those surgical makeover shows, you already know that shockingly ugly women on those shows looked consistently above average post-op.

So "In reality some people are low SMV, beyond their control." is wrong. If trannys - MEN - can put in enough effort to transform themselves into passable women, then I don't want to hear any excuses from actual women, who have a much better starting point. The real issue with women is that they are not willing to do what it takes, such as weight loss or surgery, to address their SMV. That is 100% on them and nobody else. If it is not enough of a priority for them, alright, that's their choice, but they don't get to complain about it.

[–]Goodfortune20 12 points13 points  (14 children)

Although I agree mostly with the losing weight thing, I still think there are plenty ugly people who are thin who won't qualify as a 7.

[–]pewpsprinkler 2 points3 points  (13 children)

True, but if you throw in proper use of makeup and clothing, you could solve a decent amount of the remaining ugly, and the bulk of what remains could be addressed with targeted cosmetic surgery.

Surgery won't make you a 10, but it can curb some of those glaring defects enough to get the average up to a 7 for almost everyone.

[–]Goodfortune20 10 points11 points  (12 children)

this is true but most people wont get surgery for a moral reason or don't have enough money. And clothes and makeup surely help but once you get into a relationship you can see that the person isn't a consistent 7. So if a 7 or 8 man dates a 7 and he realizes she's only a 5-6 without the decorations, he might be a bit disappointed and even be tempted to find better.

[–]pewpsprinkler 3 points4 points  (11 children)

If they want to fix their ugliness, they would either work harder to make more money, or prioritize and save. The key issue is lack of prioritization. If it is important enough, you make it happen.

People are not really against surgery for "moral" reasons. Plenty of people refuse to consider it, but it is not a matter of morality.

A woman who is a 5-6 and fools the guy had better have used her opportunity to impress him with her other value beyond looks. If that is lacking, then of course he will lose interest. Lots of women stop putting in effort and let their SMV slide. Even a natural 9 can put on weight.

[–]Goodfortune20 5 points6 points  (4 children)

Moral or they have a fear of surgery or maybe they have the money but other people in their life dissuade them from doing it because "they're fine the way they are" etc. No matter what the reason, plenty of people won't get surgery, especially when they can just wear a lot of makeup to upgrade themselves. But the downside to that is that once they take the makeup off, a potential love interest will see they're not naturally beautiful

[–]pewpsprinkler 0 points1 point  (3 children)

There is a social stigma against surgery, like "oh you should just be happy with how God made you" or some bullshit like that. The winners of the genetic lottery reinforce this nonsense since it keeps them on top, and plenty of those on the losing side who want to live in denial latch onto the idea that they are not flawed, it is actually a corrupt and evil society imposing wrong standards of beauty on them, etc.

Too much makeup is a bad thing, and it can't fix big issues like a giant hook nose even if someone goes full clown mode.

[–]Goodfortune20 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Actually It can fix a big nose a bit.. Nose contouring. It won't turn a large nose into a small one but it will definitely help a bit. A lot of ugly women have learned that getting good at makeup helps their chances. Can change the shape and size of the eye, sculpted cheeks and nose, fuller lips, better shaped eyebrows, etc . Fake hair also helps too if you want longer or fuller hair, nice hair helps the face look better

[–][deleted]  (5 children)


    [–][deleted]  (4 children)


      [–]testmypatience 2 points3 points  (3 children)

      Way more real than "get plastic surgery for something that isn't super important". Reality is harsh, you can't just plastic surgery your way out of it.

      [–]munchinggobbles 7 points8 points  (3 children)

      I've always assumed that plastic surgery even if it increases your SMV would decrease your RMV in the sense that the kids aren't exactly going to get that pointy nose and high cheekbones and the offspring end up looking extremely different from the parents. What would your opinion be on this matter?

      [–]pewpsprinkler 2 points3 points  (2 children)

      I don't think people think about it that deeply, except in one case in china where a rich guy sued his wife when it turned out she had tons of plastic surgery and popped out some ugly kids.


      [–]redbrickdoll 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      This story was later proved to be a hoax. That girl had to end her modeling career because everyone believed the story. I thought it was real too.

      [–]NCLurker87 3 points4 points  (2 children)

      I know y'all don't like men responding, but i feel the RMV can really help girls go above their SMV.

      My girlfriend is very beautiful, but she is at least 50lbs overweight and a few inches taller than me. Idk how y'all rank guys but i have an engineering degree and like 5% body fat. I bet, looking at it from the outside, i am out of her league.

      But, her RMV is ridiculously high in my eyes. She is great with kids, smart, fun, and completely, utterly obedient to me and absolutely worships me. She loves to cook naked for me and wake me up in the best ways. She is the perfect example of Freak in the Sheets, Lady in the Streets.

      Normally i would be turned off from someone her size being naked, but she is so confident and slutty that it makes it sexy. I am lucky to have her.

      I guess my point is that if you make your guy feel manly and powerful and y'all have great sex, then your high RMV can help you get above your SMV

      [–]mwait 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      i have like 5% body fat

      No you don't.

      [–]NCLurker87 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Quick search thru my history:


      [–]loneliness-incEndorsed Contributor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      "She looks like excellent wife material!"

      Part of being an awesome wife is being active and fulfilling sexually. This is one of the reasons people often conflate RMV with SMV.

      [–]pewpsprinkler 6 points7 points  (0 children)

      SMV is only an issue when a woman wants a higher SMV than she has to offer herself, particularly when she falls into the whole "alpha widow" trap and refuses to "settle", so she has to push her SMV as far as it can go in the hopes of finding a high SMV man willing to commit to her.

      For women with a good head on their shoulders and realistic expectations, they don't really have to worry about their SMV.

      [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      They are both realistic people who are not only satisfied with their life partner, they are thrilled. She looks at him and see someone she respects and admires, and he looks at her and see someone he cares about.

      I think this is the most important bit. That there is this kind of "encounter", the expectations and priorities of the two people meet. It doesn't always work the way that one goes like "I'm interested in this guy and realistically he is like a 3 so he should really be good fit for me" while the guy goes like "whoa a girl is interested that must mean something changed with me, who cares about this one I can finally have any girl I want now".

      And the RMV: We can only be so pretty and so tall etc. Some people have to work harder and in the formative teenage year it pretty much boils down to your family.

      Anecdotal but I started working on myself when I was 11 - lost enough weight to get the BMI 18, learned to cook, persuaded my mother to let me do the cooking, started exchanging recipes with my girlfriends, started reading fashion magazines, getting income to have money for all the stuff it needed. I pretty soon reached my limits: I realised my legs weren't going to get any longer and my hair was not going to get gorgeous no matter what products I use or what I eat. And of course the real reality check: Boys first started noticing that I actually exist at all after 6 long years when I was 17 at which point my boobs were finally so "big" that I could get the smallest size of a real women's bra with push up effect - before that I was too skinny and flat that I could only wear sports bras. So, it was a lot of effort, a lot of shooting in the dark and a lot of money management for something that was natural for most other girls in my town, especially considering that my mother was against me looking good so it was also a fight against never ending sabotage from her side. Anecdote over.

      But here's the RMV catch 22. If you were born ugly or disadvantaged in some way and are able to work really hard on yourself, you can work hard on anything and you will be aware of that. And chances also are that while everyone was having fun in their teenage years you developed resilience and a lot of skills that might be quite valuable but a wife shouldn't have them.

      I really think that a good "wife material" is the girl who didn't have to work too hard on herself and this way kind of kept some of her innocence. It's kind of as if she was thinking

      "Oh hi, yeah this is what I look like, it comes natural to me, you like it right? I'm flattered, I like you too."

      but it can also be

      "Oh hi, yeah this is what I look like, I sweat in the gym 5x a week, you like it right? I'm flattered, I like you too."

      Ten years later she'd be thinking "Oh well it looks like I should get some anti-ageing cosmetics already, good thing I eat well and work out. Where's hubby?" That's a happy marriage.

      However it (typically) cannot be the marginal case of

      "Hi, yeah this is what I look like, you like it right? I'm flattered, I like you too. You wouldn't believe what I went through to be able to sit in a nice coffeeshop with a handsome guy like you right now and I will not tell you, don't worry, but chances are sooner or later you will notice something is not by the book anyway. Let's see."

      TLDR, I think that working very hard on oneself invariably removes a good chunk of the lovely feminine traits.

      [–]TheFluffiestFox 3 points4 points  (1 child)

      What is the correlation between good hygiene and higher SMV? I find it interesting that it's mentioned in the chart, which is very helpful, by the way.

      Also, if I believe my SO is way above me in the SMV chart (3+ spots, to be more specific), is that a product of low self-esteem or a distorted view of his attractiveness brought on by love? Just curious!

      [–]humanbynature[🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      The hygiene probably has to do with body odor, extreme oiliness or dryness of skin and hair, tangled hair, untrimmed or unruly facial and body hair, etc. An attractive person can become unbearable if they look and smell like they haven't showered in a week.

      [–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (5 children)

      Great post, love! In a world that tells everyone that they're beautiful, it's difficult being impartial.

      But I hate to be that person, but there's only 2 Black women in this...and they're sub 5. And like 1 Asian woman.

      I think it would be cool if someone did an updated version with more diversity :)

      [–][deleted]  (4 children)


        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

        I agree. I also wonder if there are major differences in supporting a Black captain.

        [–][deleted]  (2 children)


          [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

          I don't have much dating experience, otherwise I would lol.

          [–][deleted]  (1 child)


          [–]Willow-girl 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          And you should have it all and out bench press all men too.

          I'll bet Deadsandsushi can do that! Love that girl. :-)

          [–]Willow-girl 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          That was a lovely post, FW. It reminded me of an old friend with whom I've lost touch in recent years. When I knew her and her husband, they were in their early 60s and had been married for many years. She was a larger-sized lady and by conventional standards would not have been considered terribly attractive, but she and her hubby had one of the happiest marriages I've ever seen. They just enjoyed each other's company, and yes they were still very active romantically!

          Looks are really the least reliable way to judge a partner (beyond some really obvious things like basic good grooming, or extreme fashions that might suggest an unusual lifestyle). In the end, a person's character and personality probably will make or break the relationship, not their looks.

          [–]Stayathomemommy911 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          I think smv becomes a big problem when you are not satisfied with someone of similar attractiveness. This goes for both genders. I notice that most older male virgins are that way because they have unrealistic standards. I also notice the same thing about lonely spinsters who complain that there are no good men usually want partners who are above them in smv and nothing else will do.

          [–][deleted]  (18 children)


          [–]FleetingWishEndorsed Contributor[S] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

          Obesity isn't the best example of someone being stuck with a low SMV.

          I agree with you, but it is a good example of someone who has a low SMV.

          [–]charlotteplusplus 5 points6 points  (1 child)

          No, some people just can't. There are diseases. Some persons can weight 3x as much as me while eating just as much.

          Also, you may want to describe your partner differently. For some reason I do not understand, Asian men seem unappreciated in the US. But he is attractive to you, so who cares about how others perceive him?

          Please tell me more about his qualities instead!

          [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (13 children)

          People have thyroid or glandular disorders that cause them to be obese.

          [–]fatalcharm 4 points5 points  (7 children)

          I'm not speaking for everyone with thyroid issues but just want to mention that my mother has an under active thyroid. Apparently (according to her) it has almost completely stopped working but she takes medication for it. Her whole life, her size has been an Australian size 8-10 (American 4-6, I think) and is now in her 60's. I'm actually envious of how cute her butt is, lol. She has never been overweight. She is active and eats quite well, but does need to take naps often. I'm not sure if it is an extreme case, but I am a little skeptical when I hear about other people with thyroid issues blaming their obesity on their thyroid.

          Jillian Michaels (celebrity personal trainer) is another person with an under active thyroid. She looks amazing. She is probably a more extreme case than my mother, since fitness is her career. She does claim that thyroid issues can make you put on 10-15 pounds but is another example of what healthy eating and an active lifestyle can do for someone with thyroid issues.

          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (6 children)

          I've heard hypothyroidism can lead to weight gain but beyond that idk. But I do know there are glandular disorders that make some obese.

          [–]fatalcharm 0 points1 point  (3 children)

          I'm not sure about any other disorders, only hypothyroidism.

          [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

          I know it definitely doesn't affect as many people as there are just obese people.

          [–]Goodfortune20 1 point2 points  (1 child)

          obesity is more caused by greater access to junk food and people having eating problems. Thyroid issues usually only result in 10-15 pounds of weight gain, not enough to make someone obese. People say "oh obese people should just lose weight and they'll be more attractive". Yes, but it's not that easy because the reason they became obese in the first place is because they have trouble controlling their food intake and even if a portion of obese people lose weight there will still be many who don't because they just fail to fix their overeating. It's a mental disorder, really.

          This may be a bit crude to say, but I suppose the good news is that obesity decreases competition so that people of normal weight look better automatically.

          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          I see, thank you for clearing that up. I agree, a harsh truth isn't any less true!

          [–][deleted]  (1 child)


            [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Thank you for your insight!

            [–]RedPillWonder 1 point2 points  (1 child)

            People have thyroid... disorders that cause them to be obese.

            Well stop eating thyroid!

            • Rush Hour 3 reference.

            [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)


            [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Yes they're very real. I have thyroid disease, eat a very limited diet and take the best care of myself that I can but I'm still overweight.

            [–][deleted]  (1 child)


              [–]radioactivities9 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              What u/MsSadieDunham said, and it's not so easy to tell someone to change their habits, excercise more, and we are not their doctor.

              I don't think men like judgemental women in general. 'If she's judging them, even if most people would, who else is she judging? Me? Where does she draw the line? '