TheRedArchive

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[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They weren't interested in a debate, only trying to bait you into saying something they could use against you to rationalize their hatred for their perceived thoughts on what this subreddit is about. Good job, but I don't know how you have the patience to put up with people like that.

[–]ProtectTheCommunity 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm studying a STEM major and every professor who I've got to know better has always expressed their dislike for post modernism. Every single one. They say it's all emotional BS and nothing about the truth and logic. Keeping in mind that I've got to know some of the best professors in my field [mathematics].

[–]TRP Vanguardnicethingyoucanthave 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

When he asked, in this comment "do you think that it is okay to force your wife to have sex with you when she doesn't want to?" I cannot for the life of me understand why you didn't simply answer, "no"

I get what you're saying about contractual obligations. But he's assuming that you mean "contract = violent force." Why not just clear that up for him?? Seems like you're allowing the misunderstanding to persist.

You can believe that your wife has a contractual obligation without believing that you have the right to employ physical force to execute that contract. After all, I have a contractual obligation to my employer, but my employer doesn't have the right to beat me with a stick. If I fail in my obligation, they simply fire me.

Similarly, you can believe that your wife has a contractual obligation and that if she fails in that obligation, your remedy is divorce or annulment.

Why not say that instead of dancing around it.

[–]soyanon 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You can believe that your wife has a contractual obligation without believing that you have the right to employ physical force to execute that contract. After all, I have a contractual obligation to my employer, but my employer doesn't have the right to beat me with a stick. If I fail in my obligation, they simply fire me.

Similarly, you can believe that your wife has a contractual obligation and that if she fails in that obligation, your remedy is divorce or annulment.

One million times this. Why is everyone going on about "rape"? If I get married and my wife no longer (or never begins to) have sex with me, then she is like an employee who doesn't show up to work. I don't need to violently force her into doing anything, I just need to be able to kick her to the curb (without getting legally raped myself). That's all we ask.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Because:

Having an abstract conversation that does not have anything to do with my personal morals does not require me to divulge my morals, and avoiding divulging my morals cannot be considered evasive unless the rules of discussion are changed.

This isn't about rape, in case you haven't noticed. This is about modern vs postmodern debate.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 9 points10 points  (53 children) | Copy Link

A quick breakdown of what's going on here:

As is common, the discussion of rape and theredpill came back up. I attempt to clear the air by explaining the question of one's own right to contractually surrender bodily autonomy- which from a thinking perspective is an interesting question- one that I think requires some real thinking to really come to any conclusions, and one that has interesting implications in other examples of surrendering bodily autonomy.

My contribution is purely theoretical and detached. Who I am in relation to the subject has zero bearing on it. Yet, those who want to disagree with the red pill find it within themselves to use the very existence of a conversation about rape as an endorsement thereof.

This is a classic example of what is taught in today's schools as acceptable debate. The insults and mischaracterizations of me are their only weapon, as logic or reason were simply left out of their educations.

Their only hope is to say "rape" louder and longer than any voice of reason can come back with.

In modern debate, using insult and ad hominem is the mark of the loser of a debate.

In postmodern debate, whoever is offended first is decidedly the winner.

[–]jess_than_threee 13 points14 points  (40 children) | Copy Link

I'm posting this on an alt because you banned me preemptively from your subreddit, before I was even aware it existed (literally, the first time I wandered over here to see what it was about, I noticed I was banned). Which is certainly ironic. You've probably been too busy to unban me like you claimed you were going to, and that's fine - but I'm not an especially patient lady, so here we are.

In any case, I'd like to make some points to combat the incredible misinformation you're spreading here.

In postmodern debate, whoever is offended first is decidedly the winner.

Who's "offended" in the linked thread? Frankly, I see you claiming to have been insulted first - so I suppose that's you?

More to the point, I'd like to stop to laugh about your use of "postmodernism", as the favorite bogeyman of the MRAs. I get it, it's a really easy strawman to beat the shit out of, but nothing in the thread you linked has any real relation to it. Here - do some reading for yourself; you'll see. Speaking personally, I fucking hate postmodernism, and I think anguilax feels the same - but hey, why argue against what someone is saying when you can argue against something else that's easier to bash, instead?

Cannot accept that personal opinion or belief has no bearing on reality:

http://i.imgur.com/3MNaiL0.png

You've missed the point entirely (which doesn't surprise me in the slighest, at this point) - or rather, more likely, you're avoiding the point, and reframing the argument. You keep saying things like "my opinions have no effect on reality", but what you're carefully ignoring is the fact that nobody was saying that in the first place. We weren't asking you about the state of affairs in the world as it exists, or about the historical basis of anything in particular. We were asking you what you believed, and how you felt, because that's what we were interested in knowing about.

I'm wondering if you had a lot of problems with opinion papers in school. Given this remark,

This is what comes out of our colleges, folks.

I wonder if that's why you (as you seem to imply) didn't "come out of our colleges". (Is that something to be proud of?)

Moving on...

At this point I was banned.

This makes it sound as though you were banned for that comment, and probably by me. That's entirely inaccurate. I won't post a screenshot of the modmail unless the other individuals involved okay it, but you know who banned you, and you know why:

You are boring and extremly evasive. This is a space for arguing in good faith.

 

They [your words] have the effect of making me wade through a bunch of nonsense not put forward in good faith.

 

Here at GameZero, we try to maintain a certain level of discussion. Having a discussion with someone who's blatantly dodging that discussion isn't what we want here. We want people who are conductive to discussion and respectful (within reason) to their opponents. This has nothing to do with the content of your posts, or you being "wrong". Its about what we want to foster here. Is that clear?

You were also banned for about an hour in total.

So, let's get to the meat of this. You've still completely refused to answer some simple questions about what you yourself believe. I told you I'd be more than happy to continue the conversation on your turf, so allow me to more or less repeat them - and add a few, for clarity's sake.

These are pretty simple and straightforward questions, which can largely be answered with a simple "yes" or "no", with (if you like) any amount of additional explanation expanding or clarifying your response. They aren't, as you've tried to claim in modmail, complex questions that require acceptance of an untrue proposition (or one you don't agree with) in order to answer them either way.

So, if you'd be so kind:

  • Do you believe that, in a philosophical sense and irrespective of legality - ethically, say - marriage entails consent to sex?

  • Do you believe that it should be considered acceptable for a man to force his wife to have sex with him if she doesn't want to?

  • Do you think it's right, or just (if you'd rather), that that's legally considered rape?

  • Do you think that what's currently considered "marital rape" shouldn't be a crime?

  • If the law changed tomorrow, and "marital rape" wasn't a thing at all, and men were considered to be entitled to have sex with their wives whether they wanted it or not, and men couldn't be prosecuted for exercising that entitlement - if, in a nutshell, it was legally considered that marriage did entail consent to sex - would you be okay with that? Would you feel that that was an acceptable state of affairs, or would you have a problem with it? Would you consider that legislation just, or unjust?

(Added in edit:) If you do feel that husbands are (or should be considered to be, in your ideal world) entitled to sex from their wives, who have (or should be considered to have) a responsibility to provide it to them:

  • Do you feel that it works the other way around, too? Do (or should) wives have the right to force themselves on their husbands against the latter's will, as much as the other way around?

  • Where are the lines drawn as to what constitutes "sex"? Is a husband entitled to oral? Anal? Are there any mitigating circumstances or contexts?

Thanks in advance. Genuinely curious as to your views on this subject. <3

Edit: Forgot a bullet point I had wanted to include, then added another one as well. This was the previous, unedited version of the comment, to forestall accusations of funny business.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 8 points9 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

I unbanned you per our conversation. I did it last night but apparently either the page didn't work or you were on my list twice.

By the way, if you were banned without contributing it's because we banned the moderator list on thebluepill. If you were moderating the blue pill, you most certainly have heard of us, so that's a lie.

[–]Jess_than_three 0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

You can't be "on the list twice". It doesn't work that way.

And no, I'm fairly certain you banned me before that. Regardless, this is what I know: the first time I opened up this subreddit, I was preemptively banned.

But whether I'm misrembering the exact timeline of events isn't the point, is it? The point is that you complained about being censored, as a person who preemptively bans people who have never posted in your subreddit. Little hypocritical, don't you think? What happened to "If I'm wrong my words will have no effect, no need to censor me"? That's the way it works, isn't it?

But this is all ranging very far afield. I said I'd be happy to continue the discussion on your turf, and I have. The ball's in your court, but you're continuing to be evasive. Should I take this to mean that you have zero intention of answering the simple and specific questions above?

You're doing a great job demonstrating how the disagreements between your camp and, well, everyone else, are because feminism and postmodernism.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

You can't be "on the list twice". It doesn't work that way.

And no, I'm fairly certain you banned me before that. Regardless, this is what I know: the first time I opened up this subreddit, I was preemptively banned.

Then it was a technical error on my part.

But whether I'm misrembering the exact timeline of events isn't the point, is it? The point is that you complained about being censored, as a person who preemptively bans people who have never posted in your subreddit. Little hypocritical, don't you think?

Not at all. I banned en masse a group of users who had publicly made their intentions clear to troll our sub. Believe it or not, we don't exactly care to waste time on trolls.

What happened to "If I'm wrong my words will have no effect, no need to censor me"? That's the way it works, isn't it?

I unbanned you, why are you still going?

but you're continuing to be evasive. Should I take this to mean that you have zero intention of answering the simple and specific questions above?

That's a disingenuous question. I have answered every question, you simply have no idea how to ask it. You're asking if I believe in marriage is the same as asking if I believe in vegetarianism. Yes, vegetarians exist, no I am not a vegetarian. My belief, I would hope, best reflects reality.

If you ask me what they should eat, I would say by definition, they should eat things that aren't meat. But that's not my opinion.

Then you ask me what I think they should eat. I just told you what vegetarianism is, my personal opinion is so irrelevant that it's not even a question that can be asked! I would answer, well I think meat is delicious, so I eat meat. But that makes me not a vegetarian... so the question is nonsensical.

You're doing a great job demonstrating how the disagreements between your camp and, well, everyone else, are because feminism and postmodernism.

Yes, this is fantastic stuff. It's like chasm between us and no meaning can jump it.

[–]Jess_than_three -1 points0 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Nope, you've continued to miss choose to pretend you don't understand the point. I asked some very concrete questions, and the upshot of them is to discern things like whether you have a problem with what's currently legally defined as marital rape in contexts where it isn't defined as rape, and whether you would prefer that it was defined that way (ie,as not-rape) here and now in the Western world. Your evasiveness and clumsy attempts to reframe the issue as though I'm asking you about what you believe is factually true (which even a cursory glance at the questions I've asked shows to be not at all the point) are incredibly disingenuous.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

whether you have a problem with what's currently legally defined as marital rape in contexts where it isn't defined as rape

Rape is a description of a crime that can only define itself- i.e. if there is an event that happens that does not meet the criteria of rape, it is not rape.

Currently, nonconsensual sex in marriage is considered rape. That sounds reasonable based on the understanding that since 1975, there was a removal of implied consent on the marriage contract.

and whether you would prefer that that was the case here and now in the Western world.

I've explained a multitude of times, my preference is not to get married. I have absolutely no opinion on what private contracts other people get into with eachother. This means- since you need me to spell it out- that in my romantic relationships, consent is acquired on a per instance basis.

Your evasiveness and clumsy attempts to reframe the issue as though I'm asking you about what you believe is factually true (which even a cursory glance at the questions I've asked shows to be not at all the point) are incredibly disingenuous.

Your inability to understand what I'm saying doesn't make me disingenuous. I'm explaining to you how contracts work, and why my opinion doesn't make fuck all of a difference beside the idea that I wouldn't enter a relationship contract.

[–]WingedBalmung 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm going to make god's work here for a bit since I want this point straight at last.

His opinion (correct me if I'm wrong) is that he doesn't have one since it's not relevant because he wouldn't enter a relationship contract.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Basically- My opinion is that I don't see benefit in relationship contracts. So I really don't care what other people put in theirs.

Back to my vegetarian analogy- my opinion is to eat meat, but that wouldn't be vegetarian. Asking me what I think vegetarians should eat is nonsensical.

[–]Jess_than_three 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You're still evading the rather specific questions I've posed. I'll ask another, bluntly, and phrased specifically to prevent your jerkoff word-games where you pretend not to recognize that for example "what is currently defined as marital rape" refers to a behavior, a thing that happens, and not a legal definition of that circumstance.

Do you or do you not have a problem with a man forcing himself on his wife, as long as his doing so is not legally prohibited?

Do you think that it should be the case that individuals forcing themselves on their spouses is legally prohibited? Do you support or do you oppose that legal definition? Do you agree or disagree with it?

Do you think that marital rape is wrong (as in, a wrong thing for someone to do) only because it's illegal, and if forcing an unwilling spouse to have sex with you was not illegal, would you be okay with that or would you find it reprehensible?

If you were in a position where the government was in the process of reworking marriage, coming up with Marriage 2.0, and all preexisting marriages had been annulled and no more would be granted until the legislation was passed (so it wouldn't change any preexisting "contracts"), and for whatever reason you were in a position to cast the deciding vote - in secret, say, so there would be no fear of retribution one way or another - on whether Marriage 2.0 was going to include a prohibition on forcing your spouse to have sex with you when they didn't want to, or whether on the other hand marriages under Marriage 2.0 would entail ongoing consent to sex - which way would you vote?

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'll ask another, bluntly, and phrased specifically to prevent your jerkoff word-games

I guess where I come from, the specific meaning of words is very important to a debate.

Do you or do you not have a problem with a man forcing himself on his wife, as long as his doing so is not legally prohibited?

I have answered this a number of times.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Game0fDolls/comments/1fbt7l/why_i_am_not_a_feminist_even_if_patriarchy_does/ca9olt6

http://www.reddit.com/r/Game0fDolls/comments/1fbt7l/why_i_am_not_a_feminist_even_if_patriarchy_does/ca9noo8

http://www.reddit.com/r/Game0fDolls/comments/1fbt7l/why_i_am_not_a_feminist_even_if_patriarchy_does/ca9nzla

Do you think that it should be the case that individuals forcing themselves on their spouses is legally prohibited?

As per my comments above, I do not believe non-consensual sex should be legal.

Do you support or do you oppose that legal definition? Do you agree or disagree with it?

The legal definition of consent? That was the debate- whether somebody can legally consent to surrender their bodily autonomy.

Since 1975, you cannot with sex. Today, you still can in the army. Should you be able to? I think sure, you should be able to consent to anything you want. But drugs are still illegal so I don't think "anything you want" will ever become a standard.

But the real question I was posing was different- why can you surrender one autonomy but not the other? I wasn't making any personal judgments on either. I personally would not consent to either- so what does that say about my opinion? Right, that it's irrelevant. I also don't like potatoes. Not going to stop people from eating them.

Do you think that marital rape is wrong (as in, a wrong thing for someone to do) only because it's illegal

As the definition of marriage stands today (no implied consent) then entering into that marriage and then raping somebody is morally wrong, as per my values. If this were not the law, and two people entered into a mutually consenting marriage, then it is not morally wrong to have sex with previous stated consent. If a woman or man withdrew the consent after the marriage they would have broken the contract. That would be grounds for a divorce.

It would be bad people skills to make your wife have sex with you when she wasn't in the mood- but understand that if the contract had included consent for sex, then she would not have entered it if she wasn't prepared to have sex while not in the mood.

Under these rules of contract law, having sex against the immediate will of the other party would still be considered consensual because of the nature of consent having been signed away earlier- which means no crime had been committed. I don't think that's necessarily an effective way to engender a romantic relationship, but again, I've already explained quite a few times, I wouldn't enter into a relationship contract.

The idea that having sex against the immediate will of somebody who consented to sex in exchange for a marriage partnership is somehow a heinous crime is ignoring the very real choice and consequences of the person who consented. If you think you'd ever be uncomfortable signing away your bodily autonomy, then don't do it. But if you do it and didn't enjoy it, that's nobody's fault but your own. It's a free world, and if you're an adult, you can make decisions that you eventually regret. That's part of being an adult.

Until 1975, where they decided women should be protected from their own decisions. So now it's illegal to enforce that contract.

My personal opinion on it is irrelevant, aside from what I've already stated, which is that I wouldn't enter into the contract because it's not my cup of tea. But I wouldn't preclude that others might prefer it.

If you were in a position where the government was in the process of reworking marriage, coming up with Marriage 2.0, and all preexisting marriages had been annulled and no more would be granted until the legislation was passed (so it wouldn't change any preexisting "contracts"), and for whatever reason you were in a position to cast the deciding vote - in secret, say, so there would be no fear of retribution one way or another - on whether Marriage 2.0 was going to include a prohibition on forcing your spouse to have sex with you when they didn't want to, or whether on the other hand marriages under Marriage 2.0 would entail ongoing consent to sex - which way would you vote?

I'm not the head of state or the church so I'm really not qualified to make the vote. However, if I were able to draft the bill, I would remove the state's involvement entirely from the marriage contract (as they are currently the third party), and I would allow for personal provisions to include outlines of consent- what is and isn't acceptable, how and on what terms these terms can be revisited or renegotiated, and for fucks sake- asset divisions that the court won't throw out.

[–]veggie_girl 3 points4 points  (22 children) | Copy Link

I am curious what your interest is in the opinion of one man rather than the discussion of the morality and logic of the subject you are querying.

These questions are unanswerable due to the ambiguous nature of a marriage contract. One act of consummation is all that is implied, but even that is not clearly defined.

This makes these questions very loaded and he can only answer them in a way that feminism would desire else he appear evil.

A better questioning would be issues regarding the marriage contract itself. For example:

  • Does he believe that forced intercourse is okay if the marriage contract lists it as a term of the marriage?

[–]jess_than_threee 8 points9 points  (21 children) | Copy Link

I am curious what your interest is in the opinion of one man

One man who's the founder and the acting face of this community. I'm curious what his views are; and I'm actually surprised that others here aren't as well. At least, personally if I was a member of this community, I'd be pretty worried about why its leader wasn't willing to simply say "No, it isn't okay for a dude to force himself on a woman even if she's his wife, even if it's technically legal".

rather than the discussion of the morality and logic of the subject you are querying.

Actually, discussing the morality of "the subject I'm querying" (holy crap, what is with all these weird circumlocutory I'm-going-to-add-extra-words-to-sound-smart-by-taking-five-times-as-long-to-say-what-I'm-trying-to-say things around these parts?) is exactly what I'm doing.

These questions are unanswerable

No, they're absolutely not. I'm not talking about contracts; I'm not talking about laws. I'm asking what his personal opinions on a subject of ethics and morality are.

One act of consummation is all that is implied, but even that is not clearly defined.

"Implied" only in the sense that one of the few sensible posts I've seen in this thread referred to. But we're not talking about that, are we? We're not talking about the possibility of divorce, annulment, or other remedies to breach of a civil contract. We're talking about rape, aren't we? That's what this whole discussion is about.

This makes these questions very loaded and he can only answer them in a way that feminism would desire else he appear evil.

LOL, what?

No, look. Ideally, I'd hope he would answer them in a way that was sincere. If that entails "appearing evil", well, shit, that sucks. I guess it would depend on the perspective of the observer, of course - your awesome "endorsed contributer" /u/dropit_sphere for example wouldn't view any pro-marital-rape answers as "appearing evil", whereas /u/nicethingyoucanthave (who I linked above) would probably take a different view (I'm guessing).

But yeah, I'd hope that he would answer the questions in a way that was honest. Does he or doesn't he feel, for example, that marital rape should be a recognized thing and a criminal offense? That isn't a "loaded" question; it's very straightforward.

A better questioning would be issues regarding the marriage contract itself.

"Better" by your lights, evidently. Those aren't the questions I'm interested in his views on.

[–]hiyuh 3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

"One man who's the founder and the acting face of this community. I'm curious what his views are; and I'm actually surprised that others here aren't as well. At least, personally if I was a member of this community, I'd be pretty worried about why its leader wasn't willing to simply say "No, it isn't okay for a dude to force himself on a woman even if she's his wife, even if it's technically legal"."

That's the thing, redpillschool isn't the founder of the entire "red pill" movement. There is no leader that we base all of our teachings on. It's just a bunch of guys sharing their experiences & trying to figure shit out after being lied to for most of their lives. It's not as if this subreddit is the base of every "red pill" guy out there either, you can't base our whole movement on one guy's opinion. What if the owner of r/feminism came out and said something extremist like "All men should be imprisoned", would you then say that all feminists are extremist and discredit them just because that one subreddit owner made that claim?

This is why asking those questions are irrelevant to the original discussion. Any answer he gives is his opinion alone, and changes nothing regarding the topic. You can look for yourself and see that the thread has already devolved into name calling and bullshit about how he keeps "evading" the question.

[–]jess_than_threee 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Okay, leaving aside the lolsy parts of your posts - he IS the public face of this subreddit, and its founder. I guess if it was me, and it turned out that the top moderator of a community I was part of espoused positions I found abhorrent (if he does; if you do), I'd probably leave and go somewhere else.

you can't base our whole movement on one guy's opinion.

Nor have I.

What if the owner of r/feminism came out and said something extremist like "All men should be imprisoned", would you then say that all feminists are extremist just because that one subreddit owner made that claim?

How about if the only active moderator in /r/feminisms was actively supporting transphobic radfems? I wonder what I'd do in that case. Turned out the leader of a community I was a part of - /r/feminisms, not feminism broadly - was a shithead, so fuck 'em. Follow me?

This is why asking those questions are irrelevant to the original discussion.

Agreed! Can you find me where I said otherwise? Can you find me where anyone said otherwise?

[–]hiyuh 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Okay, leaving aside the lolsy parts of your posts

Ditch the attitude, we're responding to you respectfully, the least you can do is reciprocate.

I guess if it was me, and it turned out that the top moderator of a community I was part of espoused positions I found abhorrent (if he does; if you do), I'd probably leave and go somewhere else.

Why should I care what he thinks? Do his opinions invalidate the other post on here somehow? Does his stance on marital rape change any of the facts presented here? More importantly, why can't I read and learn from the posts here while simultaneously disagreeing with a mod?

Turned out the leader of a community I was a part of - /r/feminisms, not feminism broadly - was a shithead, so fuck 'em. Follow me?

So you ditched an entire community-which I'm assuming did have posts that appealed to you- just because one person was acting stupid? Why do you let one person's opinion dictate where you spend your time?

Agreed! Can you find me where I said otherwise? Can you find me where anyone said otherwise?

Uh, if you agree that the questions are irrelevant to the discussion, then why are you asking them?

[–]jess_than_threee 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Why should I care what he thinks? Do his opinions invalidate the other post on here somehow? Does his stance on marital rape change any of the facts presented here? More importantly, why can't I read and learn from the posts here while simultaneously disagreeing with a mod?

That's up to you, really.

So you ditched an entire community-which I'm assuming did have posts that appealed to you- just because one person was acting stupid? Why do you let one person's opinion dictate where you spend your time?

Because I didn't want to participate in a fucking cesspit?

Uh, if you agree that the questions are irrelevant to the discussion, then why are you asking them?

They were irrelevant to the original discussion, which was what I said. I didn't, and don't, particularly care about a discussion where some incredibly uncontroversial factual statements were made and where nobody disputed them. I asked some questions about things that were tangentially related and which I was curious about.

[–]veggie_girl 2 points3 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

Hmm I agree with your premise.

But now I realize this form of yes/no questioning may altogether create too much of an opportunity for the answers to be taken out of context.

[–]jess_than_threee 3 points4 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

I guess I'm not sure what more context there is, you know? "Do you believe that it should be considered acceptable for a man to force his wife to have sex with him if she doesn't want to?" "Yes, I do think that should be considered acceptable" and "No, I don't think that should be considered acceptable" don't really have a lot of context to be taken out of.

But maybe there's something I'm missing on that front. :|

[–]veggie_girl 4 points5 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

It's the pre-conceived notions regarding whether or not a woman knows that marriage may entail forced sex or not.

For example in traditional Muslim countries women know that they cannot say no to their husband if he desires sex. That is part of the marriage agreement.

In contrast though, western culture is ambiguous of what the sexual requirements are of a wife to her husband. What does the contract entail? The expectations are not clear nor are the terms. So therefore the context becomes very important.

[–]jess_than_threee 6 points7 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

I guess I don't think that that context matters, because the questions are more abstract than that:

  • Do you believe that, in a philosophical sense and irrespective of legality - ethically, say - marriage entails consent to sex?

This is speaking broadly; it's about marriage in general, all marriage. I suppose he could conceivably answer "I think that marriage entails consent to sex if and only if both parties are aware that it entails consent to sex prior to entering into it" - but then that's not really entailed by marriage itself, it's entailed by marriages that entail it, which is sort of circular. But I mean, it's an answer he could give. The questions "can largely be answered with a 'yes' or 'no'", but that's by no means a limitation, you know?

  • Do you believe that it should be considered acceptable for a man to force his wife to have sex with him if she doesn't want to?

Ditto this one. "Only if they agree that that's the rule beforehand" is an answer he can give if that's his opinion.

  • Do you think it's right, or just (if you'd rather), that that's legally considered rape?

I think it's clear that "that's legally considered rape" is talking about in the modern, Western world - you know, places where it is indeed legally considered rape. If not, it can certainly most reasonably be read as "Do you think it's right, or just (if you'd rather), that that's legally considered rape, in places where it is?".

  • Do you think that what's currently considered "marital rape" shouldn't be a crime?

This also has pretty clear context.

  • If the law changed tomorrow, and "marital rape" wasn't a thing at all, and men were considered to be entitled to have sex with their wives whether they wanted it or not, and men couldn't be prosecuted for exercising that entitlement - if, in a nutshell, it was legally considered that marriage did entail consent to sex - would you be okay with that? Would you feel that that was an acceptable state of affairs, or would you have a problem with it? Would you consider that legislation just, or unjust?

And again, same thing.

So while I think I see what you're getting at, I guess I really don't agree. :|

But have an upvote for having a reasoned discussion about it regardless.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ditto this one. "Only if they agree that that's the rule beforehand" is an answer he can give if that's his opinion.

Funny story that- that's what the word "consent" means. I have answered your questions by your own criteria about 10 times now.

[–]veggie_girl 2 points3 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

I agree with your first two answers and think that is how RPS would answer them. That is why he gave the military service metaphor. When signing a military contract you are aware that you are signing your very life over to the armed forces.

However your last two questions...


Do you think it's right, or just that that's legally considered rape.

This question relies on the same context as the question before, but it also entails another. "Is it right or just for contracts to allow activity that is otherwise illegal within its region?"

The last question also depends on the same context as the first two. If the terms of a contract are changed mid-contract then both parties must agree to the changes. The initial terms still remain important. Is this a question regarding whether or not it is okay to make changes to a contract without the consent or chance of annulment from either party? Or is it a question regarding whether it is okay to redefine all marriages that are to be formed from now on as the woman giving consent for forced sex and it does not effect already established contracts? If it is the latter it would mean that a woman is willfully agreeing that she is okay with being forced to have sex by signing the marriage contract.

[–]jess_than_threee 2 points3 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Not really. Again, this isn't about contracts, it's about ethics and morality, and what he does or doesn't see as the ideal world.

[–]jess_than_threee 3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

BTW, I'm going to go ahead and reply to this comment, so that if you remove it, it'll show up as "[deleted]". :)

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]jess_than_threee 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's quite all right. The way it works is that if a comment is removed, it only shows up as "[deleted]" if there are one or more responses to it. So if he deletes this entire chain, it'll now show up like this:

[deleted]
    [deleted]
        [deleted]

(assuming there are no other responses to any of these four comments).

The terminating comment won't show up at all, but that's okay: my concern was for the possibility that he might have deleted the initial comment before there were any responses to it, in which case it would look as though there had never been anything there to begin with. Whereas now if he does choose to delete all of this - and I've no reason to believe he would or will, but I wanted to prepare for the possibility - it'll be clear that something was censored.

[–]dropit_sphere -2 points-1 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm suspicious about your good faith. I suspect that rather than learning, you're more interested in shaming the members of this sub. But the proof is in the pudding, so here goes. I'm not redpillschool, but I'm a relatively prolific poster here, so I should serve as a suitable effigy to internet-burn, if you so choose.

Yes, yes, no, yes, yes, respectively.

It should be noted that these are my views, and are not representative of the sub, its mods, or its subscribers. In fact, contrary to the comment in the original thread, I'd be very surprised if any in the sub shared my views on the ethics of this subject. What redpillschool actually said---that marital rape has not been universally considered a crime---is quite uncontroversial.

So what now?

[–]jess_than_threee 6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm suspicious about your good faith. I suspect that rather than learning, you're more interested in shaming the members of this sub. But the proof is in the pudding, so here goes.

Huh. Well, I'm sorry you feel that way.

I am interested in learning. Specifically, I'm interested in learning what the views of the founder of this subreddit are.

Yes, yes, no, yes, yes, respectively.

Wow.

What redpillschool actually said---that marital rape has not been universally considered a crime---is quite uncontroversial.

Yup, that's certainly true. And I haven't argued that for a moment - and (although I haven't looked all that closely) I haven't seen anyone else arguing it either. Which makes it really, really bizarre that he's tried repeatedly to make it out that people are having that argument.

It's like - and I'm not making this comparison for nothing - if someone said "Well, Jews weren't universally always considered people - under the Nazi regime, for example, they were legally considered literally subhuman", and I said "Do you think that Jewish people are subhuman?" and they said "Look, my beliefs aren't the point here; what I'm saying is, Jews weren't universally always considered people". Obviously everyone knows what the Nazis did, and outside of certain parts of the Middle East that's not at all controversial, either. But yeah, I'd like to know whether the founder of a given subreddit actually believed that.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 3 points4 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Another such example: http://i.imgur.com/x2WTqau.png

"He made a post to bitch about you"

"because his feelings got hurt when I called him on feigning superiority and for being cowardly when discussing his own morals."

Again, unable to even cope with the subject matter, the ego protection mechanism resorts to knee-jerk insults and judgments that completely lack context. For instance, reading the few comments on this thread will show I don't care much for the topic of rape, and am far more intrigued by the communication barrier.

Of course, anybody familiar with rational debate would understand that being unable to even describe the oppositions position is a real detriment to their credibility. That they can only grapple with insults that do not reflect reality shows yet again another disconnect between modern and postmodern discourse.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 6 points7 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Further: There will be no rest until my personal opinion is established, however unrelated to the subject.

http://np.reddit.com/r/Game0fDolls/comments/1fbt7l/why_i_am_not_a_feminist_even_if_patriarchy_does/ca9mynr

Your statement conspicuously avoids making any kind of value judgment about spousal rape by stating a bald fact, which is that it is illegal, and now you've disowned the concept of marriage itself. To me that comes across as being evasive.

Having an abstract conversation that does not have anything to do with my personal morals does not require me to divulge my morals, and avoiding divulging my morals cannot be considered evasive unless the rules of discussion are changed.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Another example: reality is based on beliefs:

http://i.imgur.com/5BPLu7t.png

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 10 points11 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Cannot accept that personal opinion or belief has no bearing on reality:

http://i.imgur.com/3MNaiL0.png

At this point I was banned.

This is what comes out of our colleges, folks.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You sir opened my eyes during that debate. The idea to what marriage was to what it is, is undoubtedly true which furthered my ideas on why marriage is out dated and gay marriage is a waste of time. Thank you for the honest words.

[–]veggie_girl 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My respect for you just went up 100x. I'm glad you are in charge around here.

[–]Wrecksomething 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

There will be no rest until my personal opinion is established, however unrelated to the subject.

But, by mutual agreement, both of you made your personal opinion the subject at hand. Others did this by being interested specifically in your opinion and asking about it, and you did it by insisting that others misrepresent your position.

[–][deleted]  (3 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Objectively, the idea that a marriage contract is equivalent in logical terms to a contract binding a person into the military for a period of time doesn't hold water, in the US.

I don't disagree in a legal sense. I do disagree in the sense that both are willful surrenders of autonomy.

In the military, you accept the risk that death is a possibility upon entering into the contract, along with all the other terms.

In order for spousal rape to be equivalent to death in the army... rape would have to be understood as an acceptable possibility in a marriage.

Incorrect. The definition of rape would be based on lack of consent. In order for them to be equivalent, one would say that risking one's life is consented to in the army, and having sex is consented to in marriage. Once that consent is given, death or sex may happen, and you already consented to the activities. Sex with consent would not be considered rape.

Understanding that in other contracts you cannot withdraw consent without breaking the contract.

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 14 points15 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sex is an instanced activity. Consent isn't given persistently. You appear to be arguing marriage, as it currently exists, grants ongoing consent to the instanced activity. This is not the case.

Right. Since 1975. However, before that it was considered a persistent consent.

[–]Endorsed ContributorRedBigMan 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

In postmodern debate, whoever is offended first is decidedly the winner.

In postmodern debate, I always lose.

[–]dropit_sphere 5 points6 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

So, I'm actually one of the nutjobs that would assert that old-style spousal-rape-has-no-meaning marriage was morally better than the current version. I would take a huge bite out of every piece of bait you were offered. I take that position based on the teachings of my religion (though the vast majority of members of my religion would disagree with me). So to me, you're fighting the good fight. But I can see how someone would disagree with my opinion.

But if I understand correctly, that's not how you see it. You're fighting the neutral fight, the one that's just trying to explain facts. And you deftly avoided the rhetorical landmines set forth. But there is a major tendency to rewrite history in the modern psyche, or at least avoid thinking about it.

It frustrates me so. The world is upside down.

[–]jess_than_threee 3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

So, I'm actually one of the nutjobs that would assert that old-style spousal-rape-has-no-meaning marriage was morally better than the current version.

Wow, that's truly awful, and it's pretty telling that you're currently sitting at +9 for a post praising rape.

Would you like to elaborate on why you think it's "morally better" to excuse any many who forces himself on a woman who's unwilling to have sex with him, if he happens to be married to her at the time?

Are there any mitigating factors to this terrible view, or do you feel that a husband is entitled to sex no matter what - in any place and at any time where it's not inherently illegal, regardless of any context?

Do you feel this applies in both directions? Does a woman have a right to force herself on a man she's married to?

What sex acts does this "there's no such thing as spousal rape" view encompass? Missionary position with the lights off for the purposes of procreation, I'm sure you'd include, but what else?

  • Is a husband entitled to have sex in any weird random position he wants, even if his wife isn't into that?

  • What about oral? Is it okay for a husband to force his dick down his wife's throat?

  • How about anal? If he wants to stick it in her ass, and she doesn't want that, is he entitled to do it anyway? Is it required that he use lube? If you agreed above that this relationship goes both ways, what if she's really into pegging - does he have to let her fuck him in the ass whenever she wants?

  • Speaking of which, what if he physically hurts her in the process? I don't necessarily mean intentionally - obviously physical assault is a crime in and of itself, and I'd certainly hope like fuck that you would agree that it ought to be even between spouses - but more like the damage that penetration without proper lubrication can cause. (You know, like for instance if a man forcibly penetrates a woman who doesn't want to have sex with him?) That's still morally better than saying "No, you can't have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you, even if you're married to that person"?

  • How about toys? Bondage? More involved BDSM shit? If she doesn't want to be given an enema but that's what really gets him off, does she have a responsibility to receive that enema? Is he entitled to piss on her face if that's what he's into, and if that's something he considers an integral part of sex?

  • What about other partners? If he wants to have a threesome, does she have to allow that? If he wants to let his best friend fuck her in the ass, and she doesn't want that friend to fuck her in the ass, and he does anyway, is that rape?

Basically, where, in your opinion, does a person's (or specifically a husband's?) entitlement to use their spouse's body for sex end? Where are the lines?

Further, if you don't agree, above, that the sexual entitlement relationship goes both ways - that a man and a woman who are married are both equally entitled to force themselves on the other without any regard for what the other wants - then...

  • If two men are married, are they equally entitled to force themselves on each other?

  • If two women are married, are they both equally responsible for being sexually available to each other whether they want to be or not?

[–]soyanon 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Without going to extremes to try to find "the line", here's what I think about the forced-sex thing in marriage:

  • The wife must either keep the man sexually satisfied, or he should be allowed to seek that satisfaction from another woman, without risking the marriage.

  • Under no circumstances is anyone to force anything on anyone else. All parties, including the extramarital ones, participate of their own free will.

Legally, that's not the case. For that and many other reasons, like many others here, I will never be married.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What other contractual obligation do women have in a marriage?

[–]dropit_sphere 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

| Would you like to elaborate...

No, I wouldn't.

[–]jess_than_threee 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Of course not. Which is a shame: I'm sincerely very curious about those bullet points. I'd honestly like to know where you think the lines are, or indeed if there are lines.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm explaining the subject neutrally.

[–]dropit_sphere 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, and that's my point. Everything they're saying about you is actually true about me, and I suspect you might disagree with me about those things. I feel like a bank robber watching a security guard get pilloried for thinking vault security sucks.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I have to wonder why you're arguing with idiots. Good way to hone your arguments I suppose.

[–]hiyuh -1 points0 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

I'm legitimately curious here. Has anyone actually encountered a "blue pill" person who was able to have an honest logical debate in which you were proved wrong? I imagine it would be something like, "The red pill is wrong because X, and girls respond to Y, not F. Don't do F, here's the consistent proof why."

I am always on guard against being like one of those people who blindly accept things without learning about it or verifying if it's true, so I am open to someone proving us wrong. I have honestly never seen any red pill hater prove that our theories do not work, or that we're just flat out wrong with our ideas. My debates usually end up with one of these:

"Oh that only works on damaged girls"

"You emotionally abuse women and they are trapped with you!"

"You're delusional, reality doesn't work like that"

"Learning about social dynamics is creepy, why can't you just go out and have fun without a goal?"

"lol so alfafa logicczz"

I know there are always two sides to every argument, but I'm really not seeing any benefits to being blue pill vs being red pill. It really seems as if it's just emotion (blue) vs truth (red).

[–]itsmehobnob 1 point2 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

There are not always 2 sides to every argument. This is the fallacy that creates all the drama. Some arguments have 3, 4, even 5 sides. Some have only 1. Here's an example: 1 + 1 = 2. You can argue with me all you want. You can tell me how much you hate 2, how it deeply offends you, but it wouldn't change the facts that 1 + 1 does in fact equal 2.

Some ideas are objectively correct. RPS tries his best to get to the objective truths, but is stymied by people that think opinions are more important.

[–]jess_than_threee 2 points3 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Some ideas are objectively correct. RPS tries his best to get to the objective truths, but is stymied by people that think opinions are more important.

Well no, that's patently false. Rather, he states some (as noted elsewhere in this thread, completely uncontroversial) objective truths, which AFAIK nobody argues with; and then, when asked what his opinions are, he repeats those completely uncontroversial factual claims.

They're basically pretty simple questions, and they boil down to this:

Yes, that's what used to be true; do you believe that that should be true now?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

he actaully mentioned that he doesnt agree with it, but that was simply ignored.

[–]gprime312 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

That's not what the conversation was about though. His opinion is irrelevant.

[–]jess_than_threee 4 points5 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I don't know if you're aware of this, but sometimes discussions branch, move on to different topics, and so on.

That was what the conversation was about. I asked what his opinion was. That was what I was conversing with him about.

[–]hiyuh 6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

There's a discussion branching naturally, and then there's someone forcing it in a certain direction that's irrelevant to the current topic. Why does it matter what he personally believes? Does that change any of the solid facts in the current argument whatsoever? If no, then it's irrelevant and doesn't need to be brought up.

[–]jess_than_threee -2 points-1 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think it's neat that you have these ideas about what does and doesn't need to be brought up in any given context, but on an open forum I'm free to ask whatever questions I'd like. Certainly he's equally free not to answer them, but then we're back to - shit, why aren't you willing to simply state very clearly something like "No, I don't think it's okay for a husband to force his wife to have sex with him if she doesn't want to, regardless of context"?

Beyond that, I'll refer you to another comment I just made.

[–]itsmehobnob 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

"I'm entitled to any answers I want"

"I'm entitled to any answers"

"I'm entitled"

[–]gprime312 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

No, you were trying to get a sound byte to make him look bad instead of discussing his original point. Opinions do not matter in an objective debate.

[–]jess_than_threee 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

No, you were trying to get a sound byte to make him look bad instead of discussing his original point.

No, I wasn't. I'm genuinely curious as to what his opinion is on this.

Opinions do not matter in an objective debate.

Nope, that's still bullshit. I'm not certain where you got the idea that I was participating in any kind of "debate", but I've stated repeatedly that pretty much everyone accepts the historical claims he made - which is to say, that there was no "debate" to begin with.

Opinions don't matter in an objective debate, but I wasn't having a debate in the first place. I was asking him about his opinions.

Reading comprehension, do you speak it?

[–]gprime312 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Fair point. But why not dispute his original argument instead of changing the subject?

[–]jess_than_threee 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

But why not dispute his original argument

Because - and I feel like I've said this before - there's nothing to dispute about his original argument, and I don't disagree with it, nor does anyone else.

He claimed that marital rape had not always been recognized as a thing that could even happen, historically. Yes! That's true. And that's awful! Places where that's still true, that's also horrific.

And my question is: does he agree - since he's the one talking about it, and since he's the moderator of a subreddit that frankly gets pretty creepy and occasionally rapey - that that's awful, or is he in favor of a world where "marital rape" isn't a thing?

[–]dropit_sphere 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

But he wasn't the one talking about it. cojoco brought it up by saying "the RedPillers" (there is no such thing) "advocate what most people would see as rape." RPS simply corrected him, pointing out that the other mod had only talked about facts. Your fishing expedition for opinions is an attempt to turn cojoco's lie into truth. Even I'm close-mouthed on the issue: do I really seem like I'm trying to convince you?

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I cannot agree more. My own daily life experiences constantly proves this. Which is why I purposly fuck with people's emotions, and in most debates, which are circle jerks, I drop insults first . Its a simple test to see if one is rational or a puppet of their animal survival instinct.

TL:DR FUCK EMOTIONAL HUMANS.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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