Remove the Man 2019

Chadster113 · 2019-01-09T07:06:27+00:00

It's funny because if a female is exhibiting these same traits she is probably viewed as empowered. And if a man exhibits female traits he is considered strong. It's so backwards what the fuck is going on?

becoming_alpha · 2019-01-09T17:10:21+00:00

While I agree with Rollo's dire analysis of the feminist-driven effort to remove men and portray masculinity as toxic, and how bad the state of our society is for masculine men, I think there's important nuance here that we'd be remiss to overlook.

Rollo says the thrust of the guidelines is against traditional masculinity with these four characteristics: stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression.

However, the guidelines themselves define masculinity centered on the following standards: "anti-femininity, achievement, eschewal of the appearance of weakness, and adventure, risk, and violence." The ones I put in bold are the most concerning to me. The APA is grouping natural, normal, gender-driven masculine behaviors (Rollo's list and the APA items not in bold) with genuinely destructive and dare I say toxic behaviors on the extremes of society: anti-femininity and violence.

MRP and RP are not anti-femininity. We love the femininity of our women, it's what makes them attractive to us. It's feminism, not femininity we have a problem with.

MRP and RP do not support violence. Sure, the competitiveness, dominance, and aggression which are a natural and normal part of a man can easily lead toward violence. This has been an advantage for thousands of years and made men the warriors who could conquer or defend their cities and countries. But in a civilized peacetime society, violence has no place (especially against women who are genetically disadvantaged in physical altercations). Instead we have hobbies and compete in sports to put our natural aggression and competitiveness to good use in the absence of a war to fight. Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife refers to the most attractive form of masculinity for women as metabolized aggression. It's aggression within bounds, just like playing sports we are competitive and aggressive within the rules of the game. Unbounded aggression that leads to violence should be reserved for the battlefield (wherever that battlefield appears).

I think we need to be wise in our engagements defending masculinity. Where the feminist imperative is lumping incel woman-hating and domestic violence against women in with healthy stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression, we need to take a leadership role and re-frame the discussion.

We can easily and with true conviction say we love femininity and feminine nature (especially since we understand it), and we can condemn woman-hating. We can condemn violence against women, and we can use the label toxic for those extreme behaviors. After separating ourselves from truly harmful behaviors, we'll have more credibility supporting and demonstrating healthy masculinity (i.e. stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression).

This isn't a new problem or a new document, it was first published in 2005 and this is the 2018 update. It's getting worse in clumping harmful behaviors with healthy ones, and metoo has made the atmosphere much worse. But we need to be able to operate in the world we live in.

RedPillCoach · 2019-01-09T02:02:49+00:00

These are the people who set the medical and ultimately legal standards. This is a BIG deal. The importance of this cannot be overstated. If this is unchallenged I believe it is game over. There is a lot of ruin in a nation but this will exceed it.

[deleted] · 2019-01-10T01:39:11+00:00

I had an interesting exchange with a female friend about this today. She asked what I was doing and I told her I was reading an article. She wanted to know what it was about, so I sent her this excerpt:

The main thrust of the subsequent research is that traditional masculinity—marked by stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression—is, on the whole, harmful. Men socialized in this way are less likely to engage in healthy behaviors.

She asked what I thought about it, to which I replied "I think it's a bunch of bullshit, but that probably doesn't come as a surprise." After some back and forth discussion (in which she disagreed with most of my points), she dropped this RP truth:

Her: We might not agree on everything, but I can say this. I can't deny I like a "manly" man. I wish I didn't, but I do. Ugh.

Me: Not surprising at all.

Her: Hahaha. I really do hate to admit that.

Me: I'd be surprised if you didn't admit it.

Her: Haha, why?

Me: Because that's what most women are attracted to. And the others are lying. Hahaha.

Her: Hahaha. Fuck you!

Me: Oh come on, you know it's true.

Her: I know it is ... just hate that. It's fucking annoying.

Me: Why?

Her: I wish I was attracted to gentle and sweet men.

Me: They wish you were too.

Her: Hahaha ugh.

Her: But some do want nice guys, don't you think?

Me: They might say they want a nice guy who will be dependable, etc. as a long term mate. But a guy like that doesn't make the pussy tingle, to put it bluntly.

Her: Haha can't have it all I guess.

Me: That's why 2/3 asshole 1/3 nice is the golden ratio.

Her: Maybe you're right.

Of course her comments come as no surprise to the RP aware. The most surprising part is that she candidly admitted it.

killinghurts · 2019-01-09T06:25:11+00:00

I always like to look at citations/references before getting hysterical, so..

For example, a 2011 study led by Kristen Springer, PhD, of Rutgers University, found that men with the strongest beliefs about masculinity were only half as likely as men with more moderate masculine beliefs to get preventive health care (Journal of Health and Social Behavior, Vol. 52, No. 2).

And in 2007, researchers led by James Mahalik, PhD, of Boston College, found that the more men conformed to masculine norms, the more likely they were to consider as normal risky health behaviors such as heavy drinking, using tobacco and avoiding vegetables, and to engage in these risky behaviors themselves (Social Science and Medicine, Vol. 64, No. 11).

This is correlation, not causation. Couple this with the MRP side bar guidelines largely focussing on your physical and mental health as part of your MAP, I think this is dangerous for those that don't understand TRP and redundant for those that do.

Morden013 · 2019-01-09T07:34:14+00:00

So, what they are saying is: If men adopt being completely open books and complain about their feelings, if they just do what they are told and don't strive to do better, if they are completely meek and non-aggressive, it'll be OK.

Thanks feminists, I'll pass your shitty offer. Idiots.

framelessglasses · 2019-01-09T02:25:32+00:00

I'm mad as hell, and I'll fuck them up first.

On a softer note.....

Rage Rules.

Westernhagen · 2019-01-09T07:53:12+00:00

One important finding that McDermott and his team point to is that there’s less daylight between what’s expected of men and what’s expected of women than a glimpse at media and culture might reveal.

Does that mean men are not comically incompetent bumblers in need of wise female guidance, as they are often portrayed in the media?

Indeed, when researchers strip away stereotypes and expectations, there isn’t much difference in the basic behaviors of men and women.

Just as we expected, it turns out that "men" are basically hairy women who misbehave. If we just teach men to act like women - because female behavior is the default correct form of behavior - and to display their emotions, all will be well!

alphasixfour · 2019-01-09T15:38:50+00:00

Open the gates for the barbarians.

Life tip: be a fucking barbarian

sexy_essex · 2019-01-09T20:57:22+00:00

All four of these so-called traits of toxic masculinity are exactly what my job in corporate America evaluates employees on.

*Stoicism = Composure *Competitiveness = Drive for Results *Dominance = Command Skills *Aggression = Proactive

These traits are all over the military too. Does the APA seek to place 85% of soldiers on active duty (the other 15% are women) in therapy?

This is ridiculous.

SteelSharpensSteel · 2019-01-09T02:22:06+00:00

This disgusts me.

Reach180 · 2019-01-09T14:05:48+00:00

The more that organizations like this feel comfortable being honest with their intentions, the better for everyone.

This makes a wide opening for parallel institutions. Decentralization is always good.

EDIT: Also, political blogger Ace of Spades had a nice post on this same release over on his blog. Been following him for a 7 or 8 years now and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if he's one of us. Seems to have been running his own MAP for the last year or two.

WeightsNCheatDates · 2019-01-09T02:20:13+00:00

This makes me sick.

TheSinsOfTheFathers · 2019-01-09T16:07:29+00:00

This is a shit test, not a comfort test.

InChargeMan · 2019-01-09T18:39:28+00:00

Let's give them the benefit of the doubt. It is important for doctors to not have sex with their patients. This will definitely help with that.

prometheus_winced · 2019-01-09T21:09:33+00:00

This is the sheep writing prescriptions for the wolves.

Blazenido · 2019-01-11T03:54:19+00:00

Fucktards. Listen...

You should be angry but be aware that the doctors you’ll find in this group are PhDs, not MDs. This is an important fucking distinction.

They’re the same “doctors” found spewing this nonsense in universities or feeding it to the poor sap who unwittingly finds himself in front of a marriage counselor.

This is not a group that is significantly influencing medical school curriculum nor are they making any significant medical policies that I’m aware of.

This is not the American Psychiatric Association. Even still, psychiatry is still somewhat of a separate entity from the rest of medicine/surgery.

[deleted] · 2019-01-11T15:11:31+00:00

I'm so glad Rollo got on this immediately. I was incensed before I even got through the definitions of the new guide.

As I posted elsewhere (before I saw Rollo's post) some immediate musings right off the bat...

I can't believe any sane modern American would take integration into our failing public school system as a metric for maladapted behavior. Boys don't thrive when forced to sit for long periods of time without break. The grade school my daughter went to was down to 15 minutes for recess. The teachers would frequently use the first 5 minutes for homework assignment or just punitively remove the full 15 for disruption.

"Men are over represented in prisons." Another stellar example of a corrupt system comparison.

"Research suggests that socialization practices that teach boys from an early age to be self-reliant, strong, and to minimize and manage their problems on their own (Pollack, 1995) yield adult men who are less willing to seek mental health treatment (Addis & Mahalik, 2003; Wong, Ho, Wang, & Miller, 2017). "

So what's better is that we should teach boys to be dependent, weak and inflate their problems ...thus immediately needing to seek mental health treatment... no self serving interest here, please move along.

Anyway, after that I had to scan the rest or rage quit for the day.

We need every modern Paul Revere out there yelling the "The Androgenoids are coming! The Androgenoids are coming!" One used to be able to relax knowing that in the end no amount of contrived thought could combat basic biology.

But now we have surgeries and medications to de-gender-specify every child until we evolve into a larger version of the desert grassland whiptail lizard.

SunTzuWarmaster · 2019-01-09T17:12:29+00:00

Rollo/Others: I'd be curious to hear what you think of the actual guidelines (

https://www.apa.org/about/policy/boys-men-practice-guidelines.pdf) or the APA's summary of the guidelines (https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/01/ce-corner.aspx). This community and the /r/MensRights and /r/MensLib communities have some overlap.

Men are less likely to seek psych help and more likely to commit suicide. They are more likely to drink and smoke. This is, in a word, bad. Someone should do something, and the APA, as an organization of mental/life/marriage counselors, should probably be among those that do (I think this community should be involved as well). Further, there already is a guideline set for girls/women. It seems like the APA cannot win here - we would give them flack for a girls/women guide without a boys/men guideline, but when they write a boys/men guideline we disagree with the content.

For reference, here are the guidelines:

1 - Psychologists strive to recognize that masculinities are constructed based on social, cultural, and contextual norms.

2 - Psychologists strive to recognize that boys and men integrate multiple aspects to their social identities across the lifespan.

3 - Psychologists understand the impact of power, privilege, and sexism on the development of boys and men and on their relationships with others.

4 - Psychologists strive to develop a comprehensive understanding of the factors that influence the interpersonal relationships of boys and men.

5 - Psychologists strive to encourage positive father involvement and healthy family relationships. authors note - "positive" in this instance seems to indicate engaging in active/physical play, encouraging competition, encouraging of experimentation, and developing a sense of autonomy among children, all of which would be relatively difficult to disagree with. I, for one, would be pleased to raise a physically active, curious, autonomous adult.

6 - Psychologists strive to support educational efforts that are responsive to the needs of boys and men.

7 - Psychologists strive to reduce the high rates of problems boys and men face and act out in their lives such as aggression, violence, substance abuse, and suicide.

8 - Psychologists strive to help boys and men engage in health-related behaviors. authors note - "health-related behaviors" means, and I quote "such as resisting social pressure to eschew health concerns, engaging in self-acceptance, fostering a positive identity, engaging in preventative medical services, and developing the habits of healthy diet, sleep, and exercise." This may be summed up in MRP lingo as "own your problems, go to the doctor, dial in your diet, and fucking LIFT". Naturally, the APA doesn't use MRP lingo.

9 - Psychologists strive to build and promote gender-sensitive psychological services.

10 - Psychologists understand and strive to change institutional, cultural, and systemic problems that affect boys and men through advocacy, prevention, and education. author's note - this is basically the MensRights laundry list (men are over-incarcerated, have no homeless shelters, biased divorce laws, etc.)

I find it hard to disagree with any of these guidelines, they may be effectively summed up as "As a psychologist, you should strive to understand the factors which shape the world of your client and help them get their shit together".

Puddles503 · 2019-01-10T00:13:42+00:00

Yeah I saw this one coming out a few days ago as well. I think, while there is some application toward RP principles at play here, you may be missing the larger political issue in all of this, respectfully, of course.

Ultimately, humanity is rapidly approaching the zenith of overpopulation. This is primarily what is causing the exodus out of Africa and areas of the Middle East which are not woretorn by the proxy battles between the US and Communist nations.

Essentially, the narrative states that we're taking on refugees, en masse, to Europe because if we just take this current round of refugees exodusing Africa and the Middle East the problem will be solved.

Women, in their earnest nature to "nurture these poor refugees", while battling against the "patriarchal" (sic) nature of (white) men to turn the barbarians away at the gate, has created a conflict of interest in how to address the issue (and the same approach is being pushed here in the US with overpopulation nearing terminal velocity in Latin America). This diagnosis of toxic masculinity is merely a post-hoc explanation derived to assuage women of the guilt intrinsic to humanity being forced to make a decision on this matter.

If you look at the trends of population growth by continent, you can see that the native population of Europe and "most" of North America (everyone except Mexico are at zero growth, or even at negative growth due to education, contraception etc.) are relatively stagnant, and even shrinking in many aspects due to education, contraception and the rise of feminine empowerment that tricks them into not having children until its too late.

Now, I'll probably get slammed for insisting that this is a multi-facetted issue that doesn't fall strictly along MRP concepts, IN conjunction with the fact that we are harboring men who refuse to let go of the childish fantasy "everything's going to be alright if we just ignore the problem, racist Throndor", however I think clarity is more important in this particular issue. AND there is some correlation to MRP and "seeing reality as it is, not how we want it to be".

In sum, the western world is rapidly approaching a very difficult decision. We will either have to force birth control on the third world to battle overpopulation and mass migration, let mass migration destroy us and then continue on to humanity's greater destruction in aftermath of the defeat of "Reason", or enact genocidal policies throughout the world to curb population growth.

I'm thinking option 1 is the most humane option, option 2 doesn't really address the issue and buys 25 years tops if you consider the Malthusian mathematics of a 2.5% growth rate in Africa on a population of 1.5billion people in conjunction with the best care scenario of an absolute extermination of the western world's population, and option 3 is pretty grisly. Let's not forget that Asia is bolstering a 1.1% growth rate with a population of 4.5billion people.

If you know anything about Logarithmic math, we're looking at Africa doubling in population in 27 years (+1.5Billion), and Asia doubling in population in 63 years (4.5billion), and South America doubling in population in 57 years (500,000).

Hope this insight helps.

Regards,

SKRedPill · 2019-01-10T06:16:22+00:00

Article for men written by a woman - Red Flag #1. I am going to stop reading any articles on men written by women after this point. There's nothing a woman can guide you about being a man after what Steel posted up there. At this point if I ever read it, it only confirms what RP truths tell you about how they react to a man.

Red Flag #2 - Always a discussion of homosexuals and gays and minorities. All psychology has slanted to normalize the minority now. Just get this, this is the biggest reason why male psychology is so soy now.

Red Flag #3 - Nerd smart is not life smart.

Red Flag #4 - Why would women care if men commit suicide or feel isolated? Most of that is simply because they're separated from their fathers, have no male spaces where they've got each others' backs and lack mental and physical strength? Wait, strength!? Oooh that's so toxic.... - the solution to that is male spaces, not behaving like women.

Red Flag #5 - Beta behaviours such as drinking, drugs, bad diet, not lifting, overweight - that kill men more. Ok, this I agree. Men are far more prone to betadom because a single man has fewer needs. That's not really healthy masculine behaviour and it's the result of an over cozy civilization.

Red Flag #6 - What concrete solutions are put forth that actually work? How can a woman know what it's like to be a male in first person? This whole essay is just a feels talk with no solutions or problem resolution - typical of a feminine mindset.

Who talks about declining T levels and rising infertility and xenoestrogens?

What men really need is more spirituality, mindfulness, lifting, becoming free of incessant thinking, meditation, and the like. Not this feely feely shit.

[deleted] · 2019-01-10T18:42:52+00:00

Today everyone just got invited to the work's Women's Group presentation of inherent bias in the workplace in men. Wtf is going on. At least it's not mandatory... this time.

Suck-Less · 2019-03-06T18:30:09+00:00

This is the worlds largest shit test.

Failed social conditioning from single women trying to be male role models, has had a major impact on western society. This failed conditioning has women (mothers) teaching their sons about female behavior from the perspective of how she wishes she was. This is raising young men to be “un fuckable” ... results? Either they grow up to be male versions of bitches, learn to hate women, or they run into the Red Pill.

Modern RedPill would not exist without these mass scale shit test. Every day I see more and more RedPill content online, more books being written about the subject. In a lot of ways, I think it’s dam good for those that wake up. There’s hardly a day that goes by that I don’t learn something new, or experiment with something. Hypergamy pushes me to not become complacent. The impact of taking the RedPill on my 20 year marriage has been incredible.

For those that don’t... those that refuse the RedPill... horror show.