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Validation needs that can poison your sex life (self.marriedredpill)

submitted by man_in_the_world

The Red Pill has made us all very aware of the basic Beta Bux covert contract of provisioning for sexual access to his wife. Swallowing the red pill means giving up this covert contract. There are other, less apparent validation needs and covert contracts common to many new men here that will also poison your sexual relationship with your wife, which you must also recognize and remove before you can have the great sex that you (and your wife) desire.

Attraction validation

Many a husband takes every word, action, or denial regarding sex by one woman (his wife) as a profound affirmation or rejection of his attractiveness, or even his fundamental worth as a man. For some, this may be confounded with unresolved self-esteem issues as nerds or "losers" from their formative teenage years, conflating their value and status as a person with their sexual success.

Many people pointed out that I had my wife on a pedestal, but it was more than that - I'd built my entire self-identity around being "the nerd that made good and got the dream girl." I felt like I'd won at life...and having that ripped away was a direct attack on my self-image. Which is why you shouldn't build your self-image on a foundation of validation from others. Lesson learned.

This is all wrapped up in validation as well, because I don't FEEL attractive because she doesn't ACT like I think she would act if she felt I was attractive, so I give in order to get that reaction. No reaction, no validation, hurt feelings, etc. Best to stay in the comfort zone in order to avoid that.

These men often orbit their wives seeking sex more for affirmation of their self-worth than from authentic desire. This is toxic to their sexual relationship for several reasons:

  • Their neediness for validation and lack of self-confidence is unattractive.

  • Their wives sense the lack of authentic desire to be responsive to, and lose their own validation and motivation for sex.

  • The need of the husband for signs of attraction and desire from his wife makes sex tiresome emotional labor for her, in which she has to regulate or fake her emotions and response to validate him. This makes sex unappealing, inauthentic, effortful, and emotionally risky for her should her act fail to provide the validation comfort he seeks.

  • Both husband and wife are incentivized to stick to an unchanging, comfortable sexual script: he to be assured of getting the validation he needs, and she to avoid the danger of misreading a new situation and failing at her emotional labor of providing the signs he needs to feel attractive.

These issues make sex unappealing and unrewarding for the wife, so she avoids or rejects sex with her needy husband as much as possible, and strongly resists any change to their standard sexual script.

Even if she agrees to sex and performs well all desired acts, he may be unhappy if he didn't perceive her to be sufficiently attracted. Many such husbands want their wife to initiate sex as further validation.

Diagnostic: If your perception and enjoyment of a sexual encounter depends on what you imagine your wife is thinking, you have a validation problem. Stay out of your wife's head!

Good or giving lover validation

Validating their prowess or performance as a lover, or as a generous lover who takes care of his wife's "needs," is important to the self-image of many men. For example, giving his wife an orgasm often becomes a symbolic metric validating the husband's performance, so he insists on making her cum every time even when she would prefer not to. This leads to bad sex for her and makes sex an emotional labor in which she feels pressured either to fake an orgasm, or tolerate and perform a sexual act she doesn't desire then. It also objectifies the wife as a female orgasming machine that the husband "plays" like a video game to induce orgasm and thereby win his validation, making their sex impersonal rather than intimate.

Paradoxically, the more the wife cums, the worse the sex may be for her.

By all means bring your wife to orgasm if she wants one or more, but don't force it on her, or pressure or shame her about her sexuality just to meet your own unhealthy need for validation.

Special sex act / submission validation

It's quite common for an insecure beta to seek validation through the performance of specific sex acts, where the symbolic validation matters more to him than the physical sensation or the quality of the overall sexual encounter.

  • "If she really loved me she'd allow me anal sex."

  • "I'd be OK without anal if she had refused all previous boyfriends, but she let her boyfriend Chad fuck her ass, so as her husband I should get it, too."

Obsession with being validated by her submission to a specific sex act can hold the entire sexual relationship hostage to its performance, ensures resentment on at least one side, and at best deadlocks the sexual relationship into its current poor state while they struggle over that one issue.

This case often arises when the existing sexual pattern is locked into a narrow range due to the various issues discussed here, or by the man's limited range of sexual expression within his sexual comfort zone, so the desired act assumes outsize importance as the only safe way he can see to add novelty or variety to move the sexual relationship forward. In my own experience, as I've developed a richer palette of Emotion and Variety to play with, I care less and less about any specific sexual act; there's always other interesting new things to try.

Respectful good guy validation / Nice Guy covert contract

Mainstream society promotes the ideal that men be polite, respectful, and chivalrous with women, and that courteous men avoid open discussion of personal sexual matters and desires. (Nice Guys create covert contracts that such behavior should itself entitle them to sexual relationships with women, or their wives.) Many of us, including myself before MRP, have unthinkingly carried these polite social conventions over into our LTRs, and paradoxically have frank, intimate discussions with our wives about everything except sex, which should be the most intimate of all.

These public conventions of politeness and respect made me avoid dirty talk, frank sexual discussion, and uninhibited expression of Emotion as in SGM with my wife, until reading NMMNG pointed out the complete incongruity with all other aspects of my life and marital relationship. Now we speak openly about sex, and I talk with Emotion during sex with my wife.

Egalitarian validation / Reciprocity covert contract

Some guys build their self-image as a good person on being scrupulously fair and egalitarian. Many are also Nice Guys who build covert contracts expecting complete sexual reciprocity and symmetry from their wives

  • "I never deny her sex, so it's not fair that she rejects me."

  • "I give her oral, so she should give me blowjobs."

  • "Each of us should initiate half of the time."

and then resent their wives for not fulfilling these hidden expectations.

I still, even after so long, find my wife's attitude towards sex difficult. Even now, when we're having more sex than I ever really thought possible, it's always me focusing on her. She never goes down on me, doesn't focus on my pleasure outside of PIV, etc.

As with Good and Giving Lover validators, these Egalitarian validation-seekers may impose bad sex and emotional labor on their wives in the name of strict fairness and reciprocity in order to validate their self-perception as fair, egalitarian partners. The Reciprocal Covert Contractors will experience the usual disappointment, resentment, anger, and butthurt as their wives resist or reject bad sex.

Hypocrisy is common here, as the "fair" Nice Guy generally only "gives" in ways that he sexually enjoys, and then expects a second reward for his "sacrifice".

Intimacy

I'm not sure what sex without any need for external validation even looks like. At that point, is anything that produces a similar physical experience equivalent? Is having sex with a robot the same as having sex with your wife, or having sex with a stranger, provided they produce similar physical feelings?

The great advantage of LTR sex over a ONS or STR is its potential for intimacy; sex with the deep emotional and physical interplay based on profound knowledge of and raw, unfiltered interaction between each others' bodies, minds, and emotions. Validation-seeking and covert contracts prevent intimacy because they are self-focused rather than focused on open, uninhibited interplay with the other person; they make sex transactional and constrained within limiting boundaries. Great sex requires eliminating all covert contracts, and all need for validation and ego support, to create the conditions in which intimacy can emerge.

Diagnostic scenario

The following scenario may help you identify hidden needs for validation or covert contracts that are limiting your sex life:

You come to bed after a long day, shortly after your wife. You find yourself incredibly horny, so you initiate sex. Your wife says "Honey, I had a long and difficult day, and I'm totally exhausted. I don't want an orgasm, I'm not up for giving you a blowjob or handjob or riding you or even moving ... but I would enjoy just lying here passively and letting you take your pleasure with my body."

Could you embrace her offer, or would you refuse because

  • "receptive starfish" sex doesn't validate you? [Attraction validation]

  • her refusal to perform a blowjob or other acts of obedience or submission doesn't validate your ego? [Special sex act / submission validation]

  • not giving her pleasure fails to validate your sexual prowess? [Good lover validation]

  • you're profoundly uncomfortable focusing on your own pleasure rather than hers? [Giving lover, or egalitarian validation]

  • you're unable to believe her statement that she wants you to? [Attraction validation]

  • you're too uncomfortable with your own sexuality to express or expose it without the cover of pleasuring her? [Respectful validation]

Would you "accept" her offer like a Nice Guy but

  • then push for more from her during the action to try to get your validation or fulfill your covert contract?

  • not fully enjoy it because of butthurt about not getting validated?

  • not fully enjoy it because you worried about what she was thinking or feeling?

  • not do what you really desired for fear of what she might think?

Could you [overcome your need for Egalitarian validation and] fully embrace and fully enjoy her offer, by

  • turning on the lights and uninhibitedly telling her every dirty thought, feeling, and desire [Overcome need for Respectful validation] as you stare at her naked tits, stroke her hair and skin, slowly insert yourself inside her, and focus on having the perfect orgasm? [Overcome need for Good or Giving Lover validation]

  • eating her pussy entirely for your own pleasure without making her cum [Overcome need for Good or Giving Lover validation], while telling her how she tastes and feels? [Overcome need for Respectful validation]

  • climbing right on and pounding away, if that's what you really desire at that moment? [Overcome need for Good or Giving Lover validation]

You're not fully comfortable with your own sexuality or with hers, or you're hung up by validation needs or covert contracts, if you couldn't.

This post grew out of a discussion with u/resolutions316 following his most recent OYS, at the suggestion of u/weakandsensitive.


[–]SteelSharpensSteelMRP MODERATOR38 points39 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So many men need to be "told" that they are a man, either verbally, through their covert contract of sex, or otherwise. So much validation seeking.

When you are your own judge, you do not need anyone to tell you you are a man. You are your own judge. You are the prize. It's on you.

The problem most folks have though is the lack of going through and getting rid of your own bullshit. No one wants to look at their own bullshit.

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Timely post. I victim puked today about my wife falling asleep in one of the kids beds. No reason for it other than not feeling validation that she’s choose me over them. Hell I’ve gotten more sex the last two weeks than in the months prior. She’s warm, not as bitchy, things going great. Then I get pulled into her frame wondering if this is an act, is she truly becoming attracted to me, etc. I fucked up and this is the primary area to focus on. I got a lot of work to do. Other than the standard - lift sidebar stfu, any other suggestions for killing this validation whore in my head?

[–]man_in_the_worldMRP APPROVED[S] 7 points8 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

wondering if this is an act, is she truly becoming attracted to me, etc.

Stay out of her head! Attraction and desire are hugely complex ... not the scientists, nor the poets, nobody fully understands them, most certainly neither you nor me ... nor does she understand her own attraction and desire. (That's in part why Dread works.)

You simply can't get inside of her head; anything you imagine there is merely a phantasm, a projection of your own hopes, fears, and demons. Judge only her actions; don't judge at all, only respond. Let the real be enough and everything for you.

any other suggestions for killing this validation whore in my head?

First become aware of it, which is what this post is for; monitor your thoughts and actions for pleasure or anger, and diagnose the true underlying reason. Don't allow yourself the pleasure if it's validation, nor the anger if it's from lack thereof. (If you knew that you would refuse an honor such as a knighthood and had made that public so that it would not be offered even if you made the internal list, would your actions be affected by their potential impact on your chances of receiving the honor? Likely not.)

[–]SKRedPill8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

> Stay out of her head

This. Wisest words of outcome independence and emotional abundance ever spoken.

[–]mtwinemn2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I agree. This is a great post. I had found the proverbial "zone" for about a month with my wife..whatever she threw at me couldn't shatter my frame and our sex life and overall life was much better because of it. Then she flipped out when I came on her stomach (a day before shark week) and cracked my frame. Sometimes it doesn't bother her and other times she loses her mind. For me this "act" comes down to four things,

  1. I have done it with plenty of other girls in the past and it was never an issue.

  2. I am a grown man I shouldn't have to wear a rubber with my wife or stop from screwing to go get one...(she's not on the pill and I'm not ready for kids.) This is mostly ego driven.

  3. Seems like the "alpha" thing to do (validation).

  4. For my personal experience I like pulling out because there is no pause in the overall sexual experience it keeps everything well....fluid. without having to pause the interaction to go get a rubber which can dampen the mood/change the pace/ etc.

Again I never know which response I'm going to get. Sometimes she is cool with it (I can tell by her actions) and other times she is not (again by her actions).

So does it become a massive shit test? Am I low value? Is it ego driven and validation? Should I just go get a rubber and avoid the whole conflict? Am I putting unrealistic expectations on her? (as in other women have been fine with it and sometimes she's fine with it. ) Or do I continue to do it because that's what I prefer ? Using your criteria it seems like it's 75% ego/validation 25% preference/logistically easier.

​

[–]gringomasloco3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

(she's not on the pill and I'm not ready for kids.)

Yet you're still fucking without protection?

​

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Cum in her mouth instead?

[–]holyshocker0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Or the pooper.

[–]man_in_the_worldMRP APPROVED[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So does it become a massive shit test? Am I low value? Is it ego driven and validation? Should I just go get a rubber and avoid the whole conflict? Am I putting unrealistic expectations on her? (as in other women have been fine with it and sometimes she's fine with it. ) Or do I continue to do it because that's what I prefer ? Using your criteria it seems like it's 75% ego/validation 25% preference/logistically easier.

This is so individual to you and her that nobody but you can say; the same actions, reactions, and solutions could be validation in one case, shit test in another, leading in bed in a third, or working around a phobia in yet another. That it's become anything more than a trifling issue for which to find a convenient solution (bring a towel to bed with you?) speaks more of larger issues to me (weak frame? Low Immersion or Emotion?) than the incident itself.

[–]themerovingian010 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Maybe try cumming on her face next time?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I’m now aware and can beat that voice in my head down 60% of the time now. 30% of the time I STFU and just deal with my thoughts. The other ten percent is when I really fuck up and lose my shit with her. There is no reason or excuse for it.

[–]recklessrattler427 points8 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Not one to usually comment but this was a very well written and much needed post for me to read!

I have been red pill aware and struggling to fully convert for probably 6months now. My sex life, fitness, attire, attitude and confidence has all improved but I have recently realized the sex has always been for validation.

Thanks to your post o realize there are many different forms this validation can take and while I realized I was in the sex for validation I didn’t realize in how many ways I was seeking validation from sex. Definitely seeking attraction and good lover validation, I’m always focused on her not wanting to blow me and me having to make her cum first!

This will change how I look at sex going forward, telling myself to only initiate when I’m seriously horny and not just to see how often I can fuck her/if she’ll blow me tonight type of thoughts.

Side note, for those guys who’s wives want to cum every time, yet I’m usually only able to get her there maybe 50% of the time, what’s the thoughts on her wanting to use a vibrator during of after sex? My first thought which I can see was for validation is that she shouldn’t need that cus I should be good enough... Now I’m thinking that I shouldn’t worry about her and just keep improving myself and work through SGM and just let her either cum or not and see if it increases on its own. I know this is a deep CC for my own validation but can’t figure out how to now want to please her sexually because it turns me on so much when she cums that it’s also a source of pleasure for me.

But thanks again for a very well written post, good info for me to take into 2019

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

FWIW, my wife uses a vibrator after we have sex almost every time, regardless of how many orgasms I gave her. I personally could care less, and sometimes encourage it if she's frustrated from not getting off, but I also don't believe I seek validation from my wife either.

[–]recklessrattler421 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for the info, this has been a mental hang up for me for a long time, always felt that I failed in my part of sex if she didn’t have a screaming orgasm from me alone every single time we have sex. Good to know that other woman are similar and also helps in me removing the validation from sex.

It’s one of those society things, “good” men can outlast their women in bed, and while I can most of the time, the times she can’t cum I get a hang up that I just didn’t last long enough, gotta stop this mental jujitsu I’ve been doing for years.

[–]Amiksthrowaway1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

So my question here is,How to feel when women or plate fantasize about that screaming orgasm or tell you about a guy with a huge dick that just leaves them weak in the knees and drives them crazy. That shit just hits my ego, what to do?

[–]man_in_the_worldMRP APPROVED[S] 1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

My first thought which I can see was for validation is that she shouldn’t need that cus I should be good enough...

Yes, that's Good Lover validation bullshit.

I know this is a deep CC for my own validation but can’t figure out how to not want to please her sexually because it turns me on so much when she cums that it’s also a source of pleasure for me.

I also very much enjoy making my wife cum, but I don't force it on her when she doesn't want it.

You can drive a vibrator too, you know. Or watch and narrate/dirty talk; both are hot.

[–]recklessrattler420 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

I kinda do that already with the vibrator, she gets off on nipple play a lot so I just focus on her tits while she finishes with the vibrator.

So gonna throw this question out there and hopefully not get a typical “if Chad was fucking her...” response lol. She basically requires clit stimulation during sex, like she says it’s painful if her clit isn’t getting some attention. Could this be from a lack of attraction or are some woman just like that? I know this appears validation seeking but I’m more curious cus as long as I’ve know her, 15+ years, we’ve never fucked without her clit being rubbed.

I guess it all stems from being (and still recovering) beta for so long and now that I have been doing what I should have been doing the good sex should start now! It’s so easy to see the guys on here that are doing it right talk about great sex and their girl’s multiple dripping wet orgasms and wish mine was that good right now. Just gotta stay focused on improving myself and let the sex improve itself. Hard to remember it took years to get this bad and it’s gonna take a long time to get better.

Gonna focus on removing the validation while also brushing up on SGM again and just become the best I version of me I can be

[–]man_in_the_worldMRP APPROVED[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

She basically requires clit stimulation during sex, like she says it’s painful if her clit isn’t getting some attention.

Here on Planet Earth, scientists say that the great majority of women require clitoral stimulation to reach orgasm, and that sexual penetration is very often painful until she is sufficiently aroused, often achieved by ample clitoral stimulation before penetration. If you and your wife's body parts or sexual positions don't align to produce that stimulation during intercourse, I would hope somebody would lend a helping hand or toy.

she says it’s painful if her clit isn’t getting some attention. Could this be from a lack of attraction or are some woman just like that?

I very much hope you're not confining your sexual education and research to Planet Porn and anecdotes and testimonials of unknown accuracy posted on reddit. Do some real research instead of worrying about your fucking fragile ego.

she says it’s painful if her clit isn’t getting some attention. Could this be from a lack of attraction

Validation bullshit.

I know this appears validation seeking but I’m more curious cus as long as I’ve know her, 15+ years, we’ve never fucked without her clit being rubbed.

Yes, it's validation bullshit. Fuck however feels good to you and her.

guys on here that are doing it right talk about great sex

Validation bullshit.

and their girl’s multiple dripping wet orgasms

Validation bullshit.

and wish mine was that good right now.

Validation bullshit.

Kill your stupid fragile ego, you fucking beta faggot, stop seeking validation via comparing yourself with others, and just focus on playing with your wife to figure out how to have the best fucking time fucking her. Use what you find on the internet as ideas to try to make your sex more fun with your wife, not to play some stupid validation mindgames with yourself. Who fucking cares if you only bring your wife to climax twice instead of seven times, if that's how her body works and it's what she wants? For that matter, if the actual physical intercourse is usually the most memorable part of your sexual encounters, you suck at sex. (Think about that, validation whore!)

[–]recklessrattler420 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks! Getting over this has become a serious focus for me because of this thread, I appreciate it.

[–]mtwinemn1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Going off my experience I wouldn't be worried about her using a vibrator. To me she is clearly making sure her needs are met and isn't dissatisfied with you but rather being OI and finishing her business. She's aware of her sexuality.

On the other hand, you could take it from my perspective and be completely unsure if she is satisfied or unsatisfied because my wife rarely gives any outward sign of her sexual preferences, desires or pleasure. I try not to worry about it and assume if she needed/wanted something she would make it known otherwise it's out of my control.

It's all perspective.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's just basic biology dude. Some women just need clitoral stimulation.

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Most women cannot cum at all without clitoral stimulation. If she can cum sometimes with intercourse alone it probably means you are or were Chad to her. If she can't it means nothing. See point 1.

[–]Reject444Grinding0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

So gonna throw this question out there and hopefully not get a typical “if Chad was fucking her...” response lol. She basically requires clit stimulation during sex, like she says it’s painful if her clit isn’t getting some attention. Could this be from a lack of attraction or are some woman just like that? I know this appears validation seeking but I’m more curious cus as long as I’ve know her, 15+ years, we’ve never fucked without her clit being rubbed.

Have you tried one of those vibrating cock rings with the vibrator in a holster on top so that it rubs against her clit while you're thrusting? In somewhat better times, my wife and I had decent results with some of those. You might try it.

[–]HornsOfApathyMRP MODERATOR7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Perfect timing on this post. It really highlights my validation seeking behavior in a number of ways.

After a few read throughs and listening to TWOTSM this hits home hard. Last night I chose to take everything that was written here and in the other recent posts regarding emotion and intimacy and finally internalize it during a session with my wife.

What resulted was some of the most mind blowing, dirty, slow, intimate, never before seen acts from her desire, and a feeling of intimacy. Kissing, loving, and fucking all at once.

Thanks for this post. It helped me tremendously rediscover who I am and what I truly desire. It turns out that my wife desired my desire, not my validation, and when faced with the leading that I did to have an awesome session she gave it her all without any inhibition. Fucking amazing.

I took one thing in particular to heart - making her cum. It didn't become a game of validation seeking behavior. I found myself subconciously trying to make her cum before sex and she literally called me out on it. "The mistake you're making here Hornsofapathy is that you're trying to make me get off before we have sex." Blunt speech in the middle of sex... so I simply said, "babe, you don't have to cum tonight" with true OI. Guess what? She didn't cum from me. She for the first time reached her hand down in the middle of me pounding her and made herself cum with me inside of her. First time that's EVER happened and it came out of nowhere.

That act alone right there wasn't anything I could have dreamed up about conquering another hole or act. She alone had some serious feelz and her body completely took over the pleasure she was getting from me and decided to enhance it herself. Fucking mindblowing.

[–]Reject444Grinding4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You come to bed after a long day, shortly after your wife. You find yourself incredibly horny, so you initiate sex. Your wife says "Honey, I had a long and difficult day, and I'm totally exhausted. I don't want an orgasm, I'm not up for giving you a blowjob or handjob or riding you or even moving ... but I would enjoy just lying here passively and letting you take your pleasure with my body."

Thanks for another insightful post; I learn a lot from reading your stuff.

I get your point, and I'm often presented with a similar scenario, except that my wife often makes the offer to lie there passively not by saying she would enjoy it or wants me to, but as if she would much rather do something else (generally sleep) instead, and she is offering this in response to my initiation as a "compromise" so that she can tell herself that she never rejects me for sex. It is often said with disdain or frustration, as in "Fine; just take off my pants and do what you need to do so that I can go to sleep." I know that some of this is due to the fact that I'm not yet sufficiently attractive to her, but does this attitude alter the scenario in overcoming my need for validation? Like, I feel as though if she gave any affirmative indication that she actually desired such contact, like if she said she WANTED me to just climb on and pound her, or even that she would ENJOY doing it that way, I'd have no second thoughts and would just do what I wanted right away, as in your example. But when she presents it as if it's something she sees as a necessary nuisance to put up with, like doing the dishes, it really makes it tough for me to want to go through with it--even if I'm horny, I wonder if I'm doing more damage than good by participating in sexual activity that she seems to find unappealing. I'm certainly not expecting her to suddenly turn it into passionate lovemaking when this happens, or even to orgasm herself (that's on her at that point), but it would be nice if it seemed more like an activity she found some enjoyment in, if only for the closeness and giving me pleasure, than a distasteful chore that she needs to mark off of her checklist. Am I still seeking validation then, or are my concerns legitimate? Should I just crawl on and pound her whenever she makes the offer, no matter what her attitude in making it is?

[–]man_in_the_worldMRP APPROVED[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've never had to deal with this, so hopefully some men with personal experience will share theirs with you. FWIW, here are my thoughts.

If your SMV is much higher than hers, you escalate up the active Dread levels. By the time you reach FMOFY, with better plates lined up and begging you to pull the trigger, you can laugh and say "I don't want to burden you; maybe Stacy's feeling more energetic tonight" and start arranging a booty call in front of her as her final chance.

OK, it's fun to dream about the future on NYE. But what should you do in the meantime?

I hate hate hate being manipulated. Likely my obsession with rooting out all external validations is because manipulation by giving or withholding validation is such a powerful, effective, and often subtle tool for manipulating most people.

Your wife is "using" (surely unconsciously) a standard sales manipulation trick. They get you in the door by advertising an attractive offer, and then try to manipulate you into accepting a different deal more favorable to them. Your wife has offered you starfish sex in exchange for checking her "dutiful wife" box (the deal on the table), but she's trying to manipulate you into accepting a different deal. (She checks dutiful wife box; husband refuses sex anyway, or husband makes it quick and doesn't ask much of her.) Her manipulation tools are the subtext of distaste trying to trigger your refusal or hurry due to not getting attraction/good lover/good guy/egalitarian validation, or otherwise shame or anger you or suck you into her frame. (This is also a passive-aggressive response to your initiation.)

This is a common tactic because it often works well on frameless validation whores like you. But if you step outside of her frame, and also let go of your validation-seeking ego, you will realize that you now have two offers on the table: the original one, and also the subtextually implied offer ... and, if you have solid frame and self-validate and thus can't be manipulated by her attempts to invalidate, shame, or anger you, you get to choose which offer to accept. Her attempts to manipulate just gave you more choices; win for you!

You have to have frame and self-validate to win these, but I do, so I always win. And in doing so, I teach others not to play passive-aggressive games with me. Play straight with me, or I'll either completely ignore your passive-aggression and take your words at face value (in your case, say "I'd love to pull your pants off, you sexy bitch" and either caveman her, or start experimenting with Emotion-stimulating talk while licking her nipples or clit or whatever SGM ideas you want to try with her) or take the counter-offer by reacting to the subtext (in your case, say "I'm looking for more energetic and enthusiastic sex. I'll pass on that tonight; I'm out of here.") to my best advantage. I don't get much passive-aggression for very long from people who interact with me; they learn.

Make her give you an honest Hard No by ignoring the manipulation except when it's to your advantage; she'll quickly figure it out when you stop rewarding this behavior. As I see it, however grudgingly she agrees to sex, it's on the husband to dominate the bedroom frame and use the SGM to lead her to great sex with you. The crew may be drunk and surly but your ship is afloat, Captain; sober up, man the helm, and lead on.

A simpler way to view this is as a shit test of your frame. Her frame is that the sex will suck. What's your frame, Cap'n? Is it stronger than hers? If so, start with the foreplay and banter of your choice, and bring her into your frame of great sex. This may be all that she's waiting for.

[–]dubsandrings2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Excellent post with common scenarios I can relate to. Well organized, well written.

Thank you.

A few months ago, around the time that I stumbled upon Red Pill in general, I identified my need for validation very quickly. I felt like a god damn puppet, that one AH HA moment that the light went on in my head. I was so angry with myself for playing this game... just not realizing it.

Every so often I experiment with different verbal and physical approaches to the foggy swampland of foreplay and sexual negotiation with my wife with some good results of me feeling like it was sex that we both engaged in for the right reasons. Sometimes I'm still struggling to keep myself out of that viscous cycle of having sex FOR THE WRONG REASONS, but I'm making progress to establish what is my frame, how to define it, maintain it, and let her work within its boundaries.

Maybe Ill take the training wheels off for the new year.

[–]FinancialLeopard51 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Every so often I experiment with different verbal and physical approaches to the foggy swampland of foreplay and sexual negotiation with my wife with some good results of me feeling like it was sex that we both engaged in for the right reasons. Sometimes I'm still struggling to keep myself out of that viscous cycle of having sex FOR THE WRONG REASONS, but I'm making progress to establish what is my frame, how to define it, maintain it, and let her work within its boundaries.

Thanks, dubs.
Thanks. Just thanks.

[–]man_in_the_worldMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I felt like a god damn puppet

Yes!

I hate hate hate being manipulated. Likely my obsession with rooting out all external validations is because manipulation by giving or withholding validation is such a powerful, effective, and often subtle tool for manipulating most people.

[–]reclaimgame2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This post literally changed my entire life. I finally see it so clearly. Thank you.

[–]man_in_the_worldMRP APPROVED[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're quite welcome!

[–]SKRedPill1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Stuff like this makes me think that relationships are really only about getting you to become conscious of the realities of life.

The covert contracts exist because men have an inbuilt need for logical fair play amongst their tribe - this has been properly exploited by feminism under a pretense of equality. Further, if something doesn't work out right, a man's first instinct is to think there's a genuine problem up at hand. The logic fails because it isn't grounded in reality. The trouble with BP men is that sometimes they're too logical and end up ignoring reality. You can't negotiate desire because desire is created -- through physical and emotional attraction and you need to create enough of it to bypass the logical mind.

The ideal of the Nice Guy is fundamentally a feminine one, because in hindsight I have not a goddamn idea why men would be the ones to pretend as if sex is bad and needs to be hidden and intended via covert means - men are by nature open and upfront with their sexuality and it's just that they need to learn how to positively play the game and arouse attraction in a woman to the point of getting her lusty beyond her imagination, rather than just looking at it from their instant arousal alone.

Otherwise, this whole idea must have been a feminine invention. The Nice Guy is essentially a product of too much feminine and nerd logic in a man.

There's also an element of Alpha Widowing and the impact of past sexual experiences here - women get spent in the long run. Men keep getting better with experience.

A reason why men are so obsessed with making her orgasm, apart from the social media influence, is that men's orgasms coincide with ejaculation. For men, any sex that leads to orgasm is a good one. Simple.

The part that I still don't get (because my now dead BP marriage was BS and I come from a conservative country) is that how come a man ought not to worry too much about whether she gets an orgasm or not and instead focus on his? I mean, I still have some unresolved questions as to why women complain so much about bad sex and their lovers not being able to get them aroused enough to orgasm and only focused on their own pleasure -- therefore this gets confusing. Tell that to a man, and his first reaction will be to feel there's a problem.

Now it's very clear women are dreadfully, dreadfully imprecise in pinpointing the exact problem, and you can never listen to their words but find out what exactly is the real problem by yourself. So can someone explain how chapter 10 of NMMNG works?

[–]man_in_the_worldMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

how come a man ought not to worry too much about whether she gets an orgasm or not

Because most of the r/marriedredpill readers are Good or Giving Lover validation-seekers, and worrying about her orgasm for your own validation causes bad sex for the woman for the reasons explained in that section of my OP.

and instead focus on his?

His demonstrated passion and desire for her may arouse her more than less emotional physical stimulation.

I mean, I still have some unresolved questions as to why women complain so much about bad sex and their lovers not being able to get them aroused enough to orgasm

Because good sex for women requires Emotion, but most men don't understand this and focus on physical stimulation instead.

and only focused on their own pleasure

This is not the case for most MRP readers.

therefore this gets confusing.

Read the Emotions post linked above, and the sidebar-recommended books The Sex God Method and Practical Female Psychology for the explanations and much more.

[–]SKRedPill5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Ok. But what this suggests is that women's sexuality really is far more reactive than what anyone realizes.

And that women are exceptionally bad at cause and effect analysis.

[–]man_in_the_worldMRP APPROVED[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Another red pill for you to swallow, perhaps.

[–]SKRedPill1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The bulk of it is digested, but the devil in the details bits like this escapes me (lack of experience).

[–]scramj3t1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for the headache OP... need to consult a lawyer now to work through these contracts... oh wait, my wife is one. 🤔

[–]z2a1-90 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great post and information!

[–]C_Till0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

What a great post. Thank you

[–]RPWolfUnplugging0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Spot on man!! Have an upvote!!

[–]Amiksthrowaway0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

So how does insecurity in my manhood and her displaying a no reaction to my advances fit in this?

[–]man_in_the_worldMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sounds like (lack of) attraction validation.

There are billions of women in the world; why does this one (or any) woman's inferred opinion dominate yours?

[–]styrg0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This post blew me away. Have been slowly redpilling for a while, but more than any other post this is so relevant. I literally check every box on the diagnostic, so I need to focus on these issues.

[–]red-sfpplustells 1000 lb club pussies to fuck off0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

Even when I was 30 days away from splitting with my EX I still got the sex I wanted. I have never not gotten the sex I wanted in any relationship nor have I ever thought of sex as a tit-for-tat exercise. Oral for oral.

I eat pussy because I like to eat pussy.

Never once had a woman not put my dick in her mouth.

These things I cant emphasize with this forum on at all.

All that aside. My comment on special sex is this:

I have learned the default DOM/SUB thing is really bullshit. Most girls are not real subs. They are brats. They don’t want to fully give themselves. All a Brat wants to do is try to manipulate the man and in a effort to try and talk back or push back she is showing that she isn’t a sub nor you a DOM.

A real submissive you can choke till she is purple while she begs for it, thrusts her hips in the air and squirts all over the place.

I pity the fool who doesn’t have a rich, full filling sex life.

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Most women are not subs they are brats.

This topic needs a post. How do you deal with brats differently than subs?

I think the answer is you don't force submission. You just don't care what she does or says. All you can do is ignore it and take away time and attention when all of us know the real solution. Spankings.

[–]ChadBroChillington2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women are natural subs. Like red said, "All a Brat wants to do is try to manipulate the man and in a effort to try and talk back or push back she is showing that she isn’t a sub nor you a DOM." Her being a brat and putting up resistance is just another shit test. A DOM-test if you will.

Women want to submit, but only to a dominant male. She's not going to get off on being submissive if she doesn't see you as a man worth submitting to. The male has to prove his dominance first. That's where the brat comes in. "What are you going to do about it?" She pushes, you push back harder. This requires OI and the confidence to get past the fear of her reaction. To shatter her frame with yours. "I'm taking what I want regardless."

[–]innominating0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Agreed. This topic needs a post. I’ve done some research and need to learn more.

[–]man_in_the_worldMRP APPROVED[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

nor have I ever thought of sex as a tit-for-tat exercise. Oral for oral. I eat pussy because I like to eat pussy.

Exactly; otherwise it's for a CC or for validation, which are wrong reasons:

I also take the active role in physical pleasuring far more than my wife, but entirely because I enjoy doing so, not to earn reciprocation. In truth, I only pleasure her in ways that I enjoy, and when I'm enjoying it; doing this is already my reward. It's bullshit to "give" for your own pleasure, and then expect a second reward for your "sacrifice".

If you require anal sex (or blowjobs or true DOM/SUB or whatever really turns you on) to have a rich, fulfulling sex life because you really like anal, this should be a requirement and boundary for you in a relationship. But if you don't like shit on your dick but still insist on anal with her anyway because she did it with Chad, you have a validation problem.

[–]red-sfpplustells 1000 lb club pussies to fuck off0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah. I feel ya.

That word “require” kinda burns in my brain.

Do I require specific things from my woman?

Never thought of it like that.

Do I require her to give me oral? -or-

Would I stay with a woman who doesn’t give oral?

No. No I wouldn’t.

Might stick my head back in the sand on that line of thinking.

[–]man_in_the_worldMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Do I require specific things from my woman?

Never thought of it like that.

When you're fully congruent and live in your own frame, you don't need to think of it like that. For that matter, you don't need to think about it at all; you act correctly instinctively.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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