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We've had a few conversations over the past couple of weeks that have centered around Attractiveness.

What we've learned from those conversations are

Seriously though - attractiveness is a complex topic that hasn't received much focus. In my mind, there are three types of attractiveness:

  1. Physical
  2. Emotional
  3. Mental

Generally, we focus almost exclusively on physical attractiveness and don't delve into the other two. However, each is complex with its own nuances and subtleties worth thinking about.

Physical Attractiveness

No matter how hot she is, somewhere out there is a guy who's sick and tired of putting up with her shit.

Physical attractiveness matters.

It's the easiest thing to change. That's why lifting is such a big deal. If you're unattractive emotionally and mentally, at least you can look appealing.

You know the trope, the raging psycho bitch of a woman - even then, someone'll put up with her shit, at least for a night. You wouldn't invite her back to your place, but you'll fuck her behind the dumpster.

Lift heavy weights, don't eat like Jabba the Hut, and it doesn't take much effort to be in the top quantile of attractiveness.

Side benefit - most people feel way better about themselves when they know other people find them attractive.

Emotional Attractiveness

Act like a bitch, get treated like a bitch

We've seen it. The pouting, the butthurt, the tit-for-tat, all the reasons that men and women act and just the turnoff that ensues.

In my favorite post ever, I link to this thread where we have hordes of grown ass men commenting on a meme post that says

I take the same stance on valentines day as you do on blowjobs. We're married now. I don't have to do that shit anymore.

More challenging than being physically attractive, being emotionally attractive requires a sense of keel and self reflection.

Your emotional attractiveness comes out in your subcommunication - your reflexive behaviors. How many times have we seen a new guy say "She turned me down, but I was not butthurt at all."? Do you think that guy realized that his face drooped or that he instantly started pouting? It's the reason why women go and ask "What's wrong?" - because something in your body language is signifying discord.

Similarly - think about why a man gets turned into a beta. He'll say "I'm going to see some friends." The woman verbally says "Okay, have fun." But her emotional response is actually "I want you to stay with me." So the guy keys in and says "I guess I'll just stay home with you." /u/AustralianArm hits exactly on this important topic, and the virtues of being okay being alone..

OI is probably the most important concept relation to emotional attractiveness.

Mental Attractiveness

Frame isn't something you do, it's who you are

Who do we follow? Who do we trust? We follow the people who know where they're going and we trust people who won't get us lost.

There are many, many examples of this.

When you read through the OYS posts, have you ever noticed how many of those guys don't have a vision, don't have a plan for what they expect their lives to look like? There's no vision of what the end goal is - so there is no roadmap of how to get there. If there's no vision, then how do you know what structures to build?

The concept of frame (the reality in which your world operates - that you and you alone dictate) is probably the most important component of mental attractiveness. We are all followers. It is infinitely easier to follow than it is to lead, but we are also very, very selective in who we follow.

As my wife and her friend said to me and friend on a road trip when I why they don't pay attention when we're driving, "We don't pay attention because we trust that you'll get us there. And it's way easier." It is way easier to follow than it is to lead - but it is a lot easier to get lost when you're not the one driving. We love following people who we believe in - it makes life easier and it makes life better.

However, developing a solid frame is probably the hardest thing you can do. Many, many guys fail. The reasons guys DEER is because they want others to think they're right instead of not giving a shit whether other's think they're wrong.

When you think about yourself - do you have a clear vision of your values and your virtues? Do you have a vision for your life that you have certainty about, including certainty over the things you choose not care about? Do you possess the willpower and character to execute? In short, are you the type of person that you would follow? If you aren't, why not?

If you've ever googled "Why was George Washington an effective leader?, you'll get the same answer over and over again. It wasn't necessarily his stature or his character, it was his clarity of vision.

From George Washington, Genius in Leadership (emphasis mine)

The visionary leader, first of all, has very clear, encompassing and far-reaching vision in regard to the cause or organization involved. This vision includes ideas and goals which remain constant no matter how long it takes to realize them and regardless of the difficulties which the leader encounters. Furthermore, the leader never allows any of the means or actions along the way to violate or invalidate this vision and its constituent values.

The greater the vision, the greater the wake, the easier it will be to simply follow. Here, in this part of the world, we call it Frame - because the truth is your vision might change with new information, but your certainty in your vision shouldn't.


[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Funniest thing ever to watch when you get a plate or a new relationship where you do not have to REset anything psychological or emotional is how she reacts to you not giving a fuck. Its a turn on. Change panties type turn on.

[–]screechhaterMRP APPROVED3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Today I called an electrician I know that works for a Fortune 500 company. “Hey, can you do this and get me this ?”

His answer was pretty discouraging. Discouraging enough I lost all respect for him. Because not only was his answer evasive, it was “I don’t give a fuck enough about me, and my carreer. I’ll just will not keep up with my training ....because I really don’t have too ”

“So, Bob, what the fuck do you do all day and when an emergency happens, what do you do ?”

“Call an electrical company”.

Fuuuuuck !!!! Seriously ? I was asking him to do a basic service that he had to keep up in training to do and it’s really not that complicated.

To me, he is fucking worthless. Maybe he can change out a switch, but I could never trust him to get to root if a problem or look at the logic on some motion control. I used to use him for odds and ends, but now, I can’t trust him. He revealed his real complacent personality of fuck Offidous. Pretty fucking unattractive

Many lose sight that attractiveness is a whole of the sum of many parts. The three listed here are the key factors, but moving into a neighborhood and keeping up with the Joneses is not one of them

Complacency is your biggest enemy. It truly detracts from your ability to achieve anything in life.

In dealing with women and delving into sexual strategy we must conclude and regard the fundamentals of dread as paramount and frame as the underlying factor of true identity of who you are.

A lot of us drop into a woman’s frame by losing sight of what we, as a man before was about, and conclude from the Disney fantasy, we cannot continue down the path we were on before her. This fallacy in itself is the biggest detractor of frame, and an invitation to complete failure

Arming your self with a set of goals, that excludes begging to fuck your wife, because it’s really not attractive to be needy, a course is set to recapture that mission or sense of purpose. Frame builds, and operating in “ it”becomes habitual. Notice, the idea of giving a fuck or worrying about what others think, specifically the Joneses, has no bearing, but suddenly Mrs Jones is interested in you.

As we loom at the attractive ladder per se, physical, mental and emotional all play a symbiotic cause and effect relationship like no other.

I don’t give a fuck you won’t give me that sale, there are millions of customers out there, next.

I’m tired and I don’t want to hit the gym,but as I leave and stop at the store I realize by witness I am an in the top 5% of physically attractive men by fitness and since my gym clothes do fit, by appearance.

As my wife decides she is just to tired tonight, and tells me I need a harem, I respond with I’ll just get a blow job at the stylist tomorrow

My attractiveness takes a hit daily, but since I have so many layers of armor, I just pull that dented piece off and move on

[–]redbeaux 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

What kool-aid have you been drinking....you're comments have been on fire lately.

[–]screechhaterMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Like “mama always said, frame is, frame does”

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMRP MODERATOR0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I want some of that kool-aid as well.

[–]crimson_chris0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think after years of marriage, we forget who we were before marriage (well, some.of us). We are taught that marriage is compromise. It is, but there are certain things that can't be compromised - like your mission/goals.

Once you get past the physical, your attractiveness is based on your future benefit to your spouse. Hence, if a man is not constantly performing he is losing attraction with his mate. But, you can't make her you vision because there is no value in that for her (or you) - what is the future benefit? The only vialble option is for you to have your own mission. She can follow or not. There are plenty of other women who want a man on a mission. This leads to abundance, OI, DGAF, loss of ego and becoming the Oak.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

This is a solid post and one which hits on that key point of not only having a vision, but being a living version of that vision.

Everyone radiates towards the guy who just gets it.

Men and women aren’t sure why they like that guy, but there’s something about him, he’s going places.

You can only be that guy when you truly are going places and have a vision for where your life is heading, that’s the only way you can take intentional action.

You don’t want to be the guy just bobbing up and down in the ocean of life, you want to be heading full speed towards wherever it is you want to go.

If one does not know to which port one is sailing, no wind is favorable. - know where you’re heading in life.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

in other news, hows the arm routine?

seriously though, fitted shirts.

more seriously,

create a mission incrementally if you have to. It helps.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

It hurts to scratch the beard

Shirts will be of Custom Ink quality this go 'round, I will be creating my own products once I launch 31DtM.

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMRP MODERATOR1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Use a quality beard oil, along with your workouts.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

I do, I’m also making my own.

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMRP MODERATOR1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I have a buddy of mine who makes beard oil. Don't make weird stuff - it doesn't sell.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

What’s weird stuff?

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMRP MODERATOR0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Candy.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

DaFuq lol

I’m going with natural smells

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMRP MODERATOR4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Sex Panther Beard Oil. Sixty percent of the time, it works every time.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

yeah about that.

why December? Heavy holiday time and vacation time. For instance, I will be away for like ten days.

Too late now, but just a thought

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Builds a baseline before entering 2018

Helps instill discipline during holiday times

As a Vet I liked the DoD aspect

31 Days in December

Lastly, there will never be a ‘good’ time, So I figured why not start the campaign now

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

fair enough man.

[–]PersaeusMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

fitted shirts

unless it has buttons, in which case it's tailored, is there any other kind? seriously bro

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

well, he chose a t shirt for the talk. I went with that.

Mine are semi bespoke, need more

[–]gettingmymojobackMRP APPROVED2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

TLDR: Lift, Give Less Fucks, Follow Your MAP

All kidding aside, excellent break down for the spreadsheet crowd and for those of us who struggle with putting the nuances into words.

[–]Rian_Stone 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Lift source:this morning.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

The V body is there. Now Lean and cut it.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Your pube brush REALLY needs cleaning.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You volunteering?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

What would a job like that pay?

I haven't seen pubes since the 90's.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Pay? Ladies dream of a chance to get near my pubes.

[–]Rian_Stone 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

I see ya still got it!

Takes a little time, 4 months of whiskey, sunshine and Timtams takes it's toll you know. The love handles will take a while to remove me thinks

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

If Timtams are anything like Keebler Deluxe Grahams...yeah I can relate. Put em in the fridge and they're like crack.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (13 children) | Copy Link

who is taking the images?

[–]Rian_Stone 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Chomsky, hes got the best eye for framing shots

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (11 children) | Copy Link

touche

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

This place is becoming like Facebook for dudes - look at my nice suit " fuck you look hot bro" , here I am in the gym " how many bro likes can j get " Seriously ?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

There is a difference between validation and making a point

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

More like.. put up or shut up.

Your turn............???

You have any idea how big your balls have to be to put it out there?

This whole sub is about bettering yourself - If I find out the guys I respect are really 300lb fat men, it'll kill me.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

I know exactly what the sub is about - that's my fucking point

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

So bring it....

This is me

DYEL, bro?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's funny because a ripped dude, who knows how much blood and sweat it takes to get to that level, is never going to shit on another man who posts their success. Praise? Yep. Constructive criticism? Sure. Discouragement? No, he doesn't lift.

[–]thatboyjeff0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lookin awfully pale and unjerked. Hows the bulge?

[–]weakandsensitive[S,M] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Since you're so certain, what do you think this sub is about?

If you get the answer wrong, that's a ban.

Edit: And banned for moralizing. Don't make claims about things you don't know and then not have the courage to answer.

[–]Rian_Stone 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Pathos, Ethos, Logos. There's a reason they are put in that order.

This aspect of unplugging if you're in a LTR and if you have kids is very challenging. It's for yourself not her. It's a critical light bulb moment. I've spent 6 months since my big traumatic event, my epiphany if you like, mentally getting comfortable with the idea that changing myself may not elicit the changes I want from my wife. Leaving may be the outcome. Since becoming Red Pill aware I've become much more unsettled - I want more now from my LTR and my life. I'm fucked if I'm going to be anyone's Beta Bucks anymore. Anyone else finding a similar feeling?

/u/mjp31D Before WMP bans you (and he will+should) Ima share what I've learned in my time here. If you haven't remembered it from the sidebar, consider it a refresher.

  • No one cares for the plight of man. Your only value to the world writ large is what you can offer it.
  • Pathos, Ethos, Logos. They are in order of importance. Pics are there for a reason. Robert Fisher was given the public flogging because he wasn't preaching what he was praticing, and he wasn't practicing what he was preaching. We talk about owning shit, being congruent, and showing value. These photos are here as an example on how to do so. I talk about lifting, I lift. I talk about dressing, and I dress. When I give a field report about flirting with French chicks in a hot tub prior to a main event, or when I talk about bringing a date to meet my spouse in Greece last month...
    Well, you get the idea. When guys are 20 years into a deadbedroom, or otherwise in a lifelong rut, the idea that they can live a playboy lifestyle, with a modicum of effort and mindset seems impossible. Bravado, false braggards, and keyboard warriors are all over. I can imagine a few guys who didn't think getting a wake-up blowjob from their wives was possible, until they hear about other men doing it.
  • The second half of RP talks about 'in a culture lacking positive masculinity'. A big part of it is 'mess culture', or that thing that causes people to bitch about women invading male spaces. Rollo referrs to it as calling male comradare 'gay', to shame men into avoiding close male bonds. This 'no homo' shit you see? This is how men talk. They also bust each others balls, call each other out, and have the occasional fistfight (on the internet, the GLO TFA thing is as close as it gets). Consider that you're viceral reaction is because of the discomfort you feel, seeing men engage each other.

Granted, if it was validation seeking, you'd have a point. If that was what I needed, I have FR I can give you that work far better than internet high 5s... I'm not as lean as /u/gargantuablarg29 I'm not as wealthy as /u/Triadis3 I'm not as educated as /u/weakandsensitive , nor as professionally successful as /u/bogeyd6 .

I'm literally the benchmark, and if seeing me showing off a little is enough to set you into a tizzy, then you have work ahead of you my friend. I'm literally something that is 100% achievable to everyone, and I give you my roadmap, for free, because it's more fun than appies, and I get to work on one of my major deficiencies, military writing is stilted, acronym heavy, and difficult to speak with any sort of personality.

So even by you being a chode, you've provided me the value, in hopefully explaining all this.

TLDR; No homo

[–]weakandsensitive[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

TLDR; I objectively suck.

I made your tldr more accurate.

[–]redbeaux 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't really have much to add other than this is a fantastic post. I forget sometimes that you're a smart asshole, not just an asshole.

Anyhoo, I like how you ordered these in the way they should be tackled. A lot guys fail because they see something like this and try and master all at once. Lifting leads to better emotional well being, which leads to better frame...

[–]weakandsensitive[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I forget sometimes that you're a really smart asshole

ftfy.

[–]RuleZeroDADMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Humble too...Fucking kids.

[–]weakandsensitive[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Precise.

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMRP MODERATOR0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

smart asshole

That's what a PHD will do for ya.

Someday I'm planning on getting mine.

[–]BobbyPeruMRP Approved1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

How many times have we seen a new guy say "She turned me down, but I was not butthurt at all."? Do you think that guy realized that his face drooped

I’ve been thinging about how women generally pick up social cues misch quicker and naturally than men.

In a different context, I can’t tell you how many times (when I was single and much younger) I was planning on fucking one chick, and then another girl we were hanging out with (who showed no previous interest in me) suddenly sets it up where I fuck the girl I didn’t intend to fuck. So many instances where the friend intercepts the social cues I thought only the other girl and I shared and went in for the steal.

It applies to my current wife. As I swallowed the pill, I’ve become much more in tune with women putting out sexual cues. What I’ve noticed is my wife almost always picks them up before me though, and she will start positioning her body against those cues. That’s where the fun begins though.

Back to your point - in and of itself, physical attractiveness will only take you so far, but it can be used as a ”point spot” if you have the other two.

Also, without the othe two, a guy can quickly go to ground level or negative. I experienced a perfect fictional example the other day. My wife and I were watching parks and recreation, which has Rob Lowe in it. Another woman we were with got excited because Rob Lowe was in it, and my wife quickly said “oh but he plays a total dork in this,” implying that his SMV was negated by his lack of emotional and mental frame (With that particular character).

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I touched briefly on the core concepts here in my AF:BB post. Basically on red pill subs we tend to focus exclusively on looks without looking at other positive traits. The reality is that looks get her into your bed, the other two traits keep her there. Esther Vilar deals with this extensively in her book. Without the emotional and mental attactiveness you cannot lead or provide resources. Given that women are a vacuum when it comes to creativity you better have emotional and mental skills or it is just a fuck party.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Every asshole has an opinion. Here's one of mine.

Physical attractiveness will never push a man past a lack of frame, or a lack of emotional maturity and self control.

I've seen some muscle bound retards that couldn't score twice on their best day, and some pudgy dad-bods that were killing it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I see this all the time. The only reason I agree with putting lifting first is that it brings an element of discipline and anger abatement in a useful way to many men. My process was the other way around. Mentality first.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I hate to use shitty language on the sub, BUT,

WHAT THE FUCK...FUCK,....FUCK...SHIT....CRAP

Looks like u/Scurvemuch deleted. :o(

[–]oak_water1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

He'll be back with another handle before long. He got too much validation out of this sub to stay away. Not that I'm judging. You can tell when guys fade away or permanently call it quits, and that's not him.

My guess is the wifey found the account.

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMRP MODERATOR0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah that sucks...

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Happens a lot. I don't think Scurvemuch was his first handle either.

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

He got doxed and is already back. Always make sure your social media accounts are seperate. If you use Your Reddit name on fb or Instagram Or You Use your Fb Or instagram On Reddit Be sure The Other Social Media doesnt Have Identifying information.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for the clarity here, I really appreciate it. I'm hoping that reading 1,000s of posts (along with the side-bar) will help cement/internalize what I am trying to do...

I'm already lifting, seeing physical improvements.

My emotional and mental improvements are lacking. In fact, I seem to be more on edge, more likely to rage at being rejected... which is not going over well. Since the MRP and lifting, my handling of rejection seems to be good for while and then every month or so seems to really blow up. I used to handle rejection much better as a beta.

Not sure if this is due to some of my increased testosterone from lifting, or if it is because I believe I should be getting laid like tile. But most likely it is because I feel trapped... I'm not willing to break up the family (with 3 young kids, plus I recognize I'm still a newbie in this MRP journey), and cheating is not something I want (yet), not to mention I don't have any potential plates even close to lined up.

From OP's post, I think I should spend a little time trying to hone in on a vision.

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMRP MODERATOR0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

First thing I thought of when I read this was this post - https://therationalmale.com/2012/02/23/looks-count/

Physical appearance is the easiest thing to change. Having a solid physical appearance gives you confidence and boosts you emotionally as well.

Mental, that is the area that people struggle with the most. To get to a vision, that often requires help. For sure it requires the first few areas under control (for the most part).

[–]thunderbeyond0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Changing your body language is a simple way to up your physical attractiveness. Can't link at the moment but I've been reading the post on MRP from about 2 yrs ago.

Perhaps the whole package is not needed if you only want to attract a certain type of person. Perhaps you can get through life being just attractive in one area. Spot on with this post - damn you're going to be killing it if you are fit, fun and well-balanced.

[–]simbarlionMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nice post. I have been enjoying the recent run of educational posts coming out. Always good to read things from a different angle

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Psychosocial dominance is very attractive to women

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Is that a covert contract ? It's full of brilliant insight and advice for self improvement - my point was it shouldn't degenerate into guys posting photos of each other for validation. They can friend up on FB and do that all day long. Isn't a key Alpha trait not giving a fuck about what others think ..

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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