Wow...I just totally lost my shit.

Archwinger · 2017-05-10T14:52:51+00:00

It's okay to be angry. To want to hurt your wife for being a disrespectful cunt. But you're going about it all wrong.

If you really want to take a stab at your wife, when she says she's frustrated about something you're doing or not doing, just respond "k", then go out with your friend like you planned, come back late, try to fuck your wife, and when she turns you down, shrug and go to sleep. Doing THAT enough times will get her the message louder and clearer than explaining yourself and arguing. Now, how she responds to the message will depend on what she thinks of you -- she might divorce your ass if she thinks you're a worthless loser and she has better lined up. But if you're a badass, she'll get her act together.

Arguing with your wife and puking emotions at her will have no effect, except to make her feel better and more powerful for having gotten to you. She's not thinking "Omg, he has a point". She's thinking, "Omg, what a childish loser. Why is he acting like a baby?" Expressing your anger that way isn't effective at hurting her. If anything, it empowers her and drives her to do more because she knows she's winning.

If you're angry and want to hurt your wife to send the message and make her get her act together, do it right. Learn how to actually hurt her.

BobbyPeru · 2017-05-10T14:17:41+00:00

So you threw your temper tantrum and feel better. Was it worth it?

She's a woman. You can be 100% right in every single point on any given subject and she'll still find a way to turn it around. I've learned that arguing with females is pointless. Emotions are their realm. Do your best not to fight on their turf.

ReddJive · 2017-05-10T14:04:35+00:00

had my anger straight up therapy-ed out of me

You can't improve until you deal with this. You are angry. There is no therapy that can remove an emotion. What happened is that you got brain washed. You need to learn to deal with anger.

As for that other bullshit.

You do realize that is what it was....just bullshit. With one simple response she broke your weak frame into a thousand little pieces. You had an expectation of being awesome guy and setting something up.

I could dissect this part but it would be meaningless because you're angry. Not just at her or you, but in general. What person just goes off at this kind of thing?

It's bullshit. Remember that. You make an overture to include her. She blows it off then goes high orbit.

Just reply. OK. I'll be home at 8:30.....then come home at 10.

then don't look at the phone.

it feels so good to be MAD. It feels good to be pissed off and vocal about it. It feels good to get pissed and call her out on shit.

Because you've never allowed yourself to be. YOu've never had to deal with it.

JudgeDoom69 · 2017-05-10T14:20:51+00:00

Good self-analysis of your victim puke.

Next time you start to feel that internalized anger building up, take it out in the weight room. And go back and read NMMNG again.

You slipped up and lost your frame. It happens. Get back on that horse, cowboy.

man_in_the_world · 2017-05-11T06:38:23+00:00

For the benefit of /u/resolutions316 and the similarly frameless, let's make explicit the subtexts of this exchange, which are the important part of the communication. (Or translate from "PowerTalk" (as some here like to call it) to plain talk.) Your egos and her Anti-Bitch Defense won't let your conscious minds acknowledge the real communication that's happening subtextually here, but rest assured that both her and your subconscious minds are fully aware and are scripting this communication.

Her PowerTalk: "You never followed up with me. I didn't have a chance to think it answer when you texted. I wish you would stop assuming things. You do this a lot."

Her (PlainTalk subtext): "I have authority over your time, activity, and location. Unless you get a specific, positive, prior authorization from me to deviate, you must stick to the default schedule. I am upset with your failure to fully comply with my frame."

The correct response:

/u/weakandsensitive's PowerTalk: "You didn't respond so I made plans without you. You want to be involved, respond next time."

/u/weakandsensitive's PlainTalk: "I reject your authority over my time, activities, and location. I interpret no answer as a "no" answer, and I will continue to do so in the future. This is my frame."

This would end the discussion, with minimal conflict and in OP's frame, except possibly for STFU, Broken Record, or Fogging as refusal to negotiate it.

Let's now translate the subtext of OP's "PowerlessTalk" reply:

OP's PowerlessTalk: "how about i don’t want to text because I am soon fucking pissed at you. I texted YOU to include YOU in plans that I was making ..."

OP's PlainTalk: "By complaining about rather than rejecting your requirement of prior positive approval of my activities, I hereby acknowledge this authority and the dominance of your frame. The particular disdain you showed for me by ignoring my request and expecting me to nag and beg for your approval deeply hurts my feelings, because your validation is very important to me. While I won't directly contest your authority to approve my activities, I will try to discourage your abuse of your authority by expressing my anger. I'm shaking and I can barely breathe, which proves that I'm not bullshitting and really am very angry, but also that you need not physically fear my anger because these are the physical reactions of an impotent little boy and not of a strong, dangerous male, so don't be scared of me."

If you think her subconscious didn't fully grasp and internalize the subtext, or that your subconscious mind didn't carefully script your subtext and calibrate your response within beta boundaries it considered sufficiently safe to challenge, you are ruled by your ego and very naive.

But, honestly...it feels so good to be MAD.

It is deeply cathartic for a dependent supplicant to get away with overtly pushing back against abuse by one's superior without getting immediately beaten back into submission, because it proves that the superior's willingness to abuse has limits or that the superior values the dependent's allegiance to at least that extent. This should not be confused with the punishing anger of an alpha disciplining a subordinate.

resolutions316 · 2017-05-10T14:15:20+00:00

Hiding your anger and punching yourself in the leg isn't really much of an improvement over being an outwardly angry child. Sounds like your therapy only changed the expression of your problem, not the problem itself.

But, honestly...it feels so good to be MAD

This is the conditioning that you've been feeding yourself for years that's led to you holding onto this need to be angry. It's a lie. Same as an alcoholic saying the drink feels so good, when it's actually giving him a headache, an upset stomach, and making him act stupid.

I typed it in, expecting to get it out and then delete it.

Yeah, I get it, but the trick is to not lose frame in the first place. Confession time: I used to be very similar, and I had this ugly fucking habit of muttering nasty shit under my breath when I was angry - didn't even realize I did it half the time, but it was passive aggressive as fuck ("What? I didn't say anything..."). It's just another symptom of unchecked anger.

bogeyd6 · 2017-05-10T14:53:47+00:00

You may not have been around in the beginning days where it was single handedly decided that if you have something important to communicate its important enough to do it by voice. Personally, I prefer face to face. There is nothing wrong with being angry and when you are angered it should inspire fear in those around you. Don't buy into the Nice Guy Concept that you have to somehow spare other people's feelings in order for them not to be mad at you. Well, fuck that.

Anyways, that goes for righteous anger. Your anger is just butthurt. Again, nice guy fallacy. Trying to please her and being upset when she doesn't reciprocate. You asked, didn't get an answer, and you made the most informed decision you could. Stand by that and own it. Want to take Friends XYZ out to have some bro time? Then do it and if she doesn't like that well thats unfortunate for her. I would have stuck with my original decision and not even bothered to answer any of that. Then when she goes on attack when you get home its A&A every single thing. Turn it sexual and bang that attitude out of her. If by chance she is a more cunning type of lady, she will ask you to change your plans after sex. That's up to you.

resolutions316 · 2017-05-10T16:21:02+00:00

Fuck, i was all ready to show you grtting mad was good for you.

Then i saw it was all over text.

Fuck, if its important, its face to face important, for you and her.

Next time dont ask, just do and inform, and put the fucking phone down.

And next time you've had enough of her shit, tell her. Raising your voice can work well when you aren't lashing out like a child.

Ive done this occasionally. It shows you aren't afraid to hurt her feelings, and that you do have boundaries.

After one or two of them, you dont get tested anymore, because she knows tigers have teeth.

But if you dont have the frame to say your piece and be done with it, don't. Turning this into a long drawn out mess isnt productive. Get mad, say your piece, then fix the problem and get over it.

Also, the sulking in tue corner thing has to go. Stop being afraid of her.

weakandsensitive · 2017-05-10T14:27:20+00:00

Why's everyone so afraid to get angry when justified? A man's anger should be fucking scary. Apparently yours isn't. You probably want to figure that out.

Losing frame

That's not something you find/lose. You have a worldview you expect or you don't.

Your fuck up, imo, was typing out a conversation which dulled your anger.

anythinginc · 2017-05-10T15:48:53+00:00

Yesterday I texted for logistics, letting her know I was making plans for this week with friend X. I asked if she'd be down to have him over the house after the kids were asleep, maybe play a board game. She has been reluctant to have people over in the past, because she feels self conscious about our house.

You texted her to ask her permission, she doesn't want him to come over, but doesn't want to start any shit, so figures if she doesn't respond you'll just puss out, and/or she knows how passive-aggressive you are and already knows that "asked if she'd be down" really means "this is what I want and I'm going to do it" and was mentally prepared for that, but then you changed your plans based on your desires to please her, when the whole thing isn't pleasing, she doesn't want to be third wheel under any circumstance.

I wish you would stop assuming things. You do this a lot.

Real talk here. She's used to your "asking permission" really meaning "this is what I want" and thus she just silently agrees for the past nine years or speaks up when she really disagrees. When you make assumptions and flip flop around trying to please her you upset this dynamic, or it recalls all the things you asked her permission for that you weren't really sure about and later ditched when she didn't consent. You've probably tried to actually make some decisions and follow through since you started MRP, this is in contrast to the previous dynamic too. So, when you "asked" her, it was coded in your previous "telling her" or "I'm thinking about it but probably won't follow through" medium. And then, instead of doing what you "told" her, or "not following through" you changed the plans completely. You can see how she is upset and confused.

I thought it would be nice to lead our relationship and get some group hang time in.

But you DIDN'T lead, you asked her permission. You didn't know what YOU wanted to do. If you wanted him to come by the house, you would have said that, if you wanted to go out with him, you would have said that. Instead you let her decide...that is not leading. And then you verbally assaulted her because she didn't participate and you didn't lead and you are in a stage where you are separating from your previous methods, but haven't internalized the new, correct assertive/leading/MRP methods. Hopefully your relationship survives this precarious transition, assuming you ever complete it.

She has been reluctant to have people over in the past, because she feels self conscious about our house.

Yeah, do something about your castle bro. Or take it old school and chill in the garage.

screechhater · 2017-05-10T16:04:38+00:00

Why in the FUCK are you not talking to her face to face ? This is a marriage AKA as a relationship Quit the finger fucking and confirm by voice during face to face time

Read This Book her not answering you is in this book and the sidebar is a direct insight as to why she does not answer

Pull your head straight out of your ass and make the plans. Lead her into the life you want If she does not wan't to be in it Why give 10 fucks ? You are somewhat gaining traction, and then you pull this childish shit, and get butthurt from the rejections she can tell and is fucking with you on purpose to test your resolve wake the fuck up

[deleted] · 2017-05-10T18:10:38+00:00

if shes a sahm, she needs to keep the house presentable. If she doesnt get the message, invite ppl over next time and tell them in front of your wife "don't mind the mess" or something like that. Just enough so she gets the hint. She will probably bring up your comment after they leave, and thats when you can have the discussion.

AustralianArm · 2017-05-10T17:26:44+00:00

This saved a bit early, I meant to tag ...

and

I didn't even mean to send it - [...] But of course, I hit "send" instead.

Anyone else see the universe revealing it's deep sense of amused irony here as it manifests itself through OP?

[deleted] · 2017-05-10T21:45:43+00:00

Women draw us in to their dramatic emotional level then beat us with experience. You don't need MRP to tell you what a faggot you were, you already know. Stop getting a hard on because you expressed your anger. Anger is your fucking enemy if it makes you REACT instead of ACT.

RuleZeroDAD · 2017-05-10T16:10:45+00:00

You indulged in your feelz. Rage in person is useful. Rage over text is laughable.

/u/Rollo-Tomassi needs to reiterate some "old" knowledge about how "buffers" fuck up your message (and ability to game). Important communication needs to be done face to face for maximum impact.

If you want the full extent of your rage internalized by your target, you can't put it in print. She needs to see that her lack of consideration for your time and planning has consequences, and that you are not her "Manny" or other unpaid help around the house.

If she can't understand the importance of being a girlfriend, wife, and mother, then a value assessment might need to be in order. The fact that you seldom get angry would only push home your perception of second-class priority.

RedishPill · 2017-05-11T16:33:08+00:00

I saw some comments on anger in the first few messages here (and someone may have already hit on this point exactly) but a HUGE realization for me about why anger feels good is that.. you feel RIGHT! The problem? You have allowed yourself to become the victim. Why? You must be hurt in order to feel anger. How? You opened yourself up by choosing to try and include your wife in your plans, and when she ignored your attempts, you were hurt. But, fuck being hurt, right? That's for bitches. Instead, you switch almost immediately to anger (for me I'm pretty sure its a subconscious immediate event), because now she is the problem, and you were the one was wronged in this scenario. It feels good because you are RIGHT, and she is WRONG. The problem is that, at the core, you are angry because she hurt you. She hurt you because YOU LET HER hurt you. You allowed yourself to become the victim, to care to much about her words, to be drawn into her frame.

Trying not to think about her actions as being "about me" and making them "about her". ex. Think about how laughable the shit your girl says is when she is h-angry, because you know she's like a child who just needs to eat; it's not about you at all.

...now I just need to develop a strong enough frame that my go to response is laughter when she does shit like this vs. being hurt (angry). PS. This applies to all situations in life, not just your wife. Improve you.

BlackthorneSamurai · 2017-05-11T02:48:11+00:00

Dude, she manipulated you to get angry. That's the reaction she wanted. You have to recognize that shit when it's happening. Does her behavior not make logical sense? If the answer is yes then she is looking for something else I.e. Her feels to be tickled. She picked a fight and you pulled you into her frame. You have every reason to be pissed. However the only move is to act like you DGAF

BluepillProfessor · 2017-05-11T23:44:31+00:00

Really none of what you did in getting mad etc was "bad." This is where you screwed up:

I argued back every point

Aechzen · 2017-05-12T11:14:17+00:00

Here's your problem... every woman I've ever known well has some degree of decision-making disorder. My wife has it bad.

You don't ask her where she wants to eat. You tell her where you're eating.

You don't ask her to bring your friend over. You announce that you're bringing your friend over...or you announce that you're going out and an approximate time you'll be home if it's relevant to logistics.

Frame the default choice as the one you would be doing if she never responds, because apparently that's the game she's playing right now.

Everything you said in your victim puke was 100% logical, and probably correct. None of that matters to her, because you were wrong 'emotionally'. She wanted the feeling and power of deciding things for you and you following her whim. The only way to win that is to not argue, not play, and to simply announce what you're doing in the future.

FYI, I don't think your anger strategies are very useful. Deep breathing is effective for some people. Physically leaving a shitty argument is also a great idea. My favorite phrase to bail on bullshit is "I can't believe we're arguing about this" and then walk away. And decide whether she is worth keeping around... she sounds like an annoying, argumentative lady who doesn't want to have sex with you.

broccoli_Rob12 · 2017-05-13T14:03:16+00:00

Why indulge in anger? It makes men look weak and ruins your day. I am guessing your mom/dad had a temper. Now the pleasure centers in your brain light up from the epinephrine rush. It's addictive. Therapy hasn't addressed the full issue. Try meditation. 10 minutes a day completely changed my life. Guided meditations on this app make is super accessible "insight timer"

sd4c · 2017-06-06T20:16:56+00:00

Disparaging someone over text almost never works out well. Ignoring them is better. But the verbose/"vomit" aspect should never take place over text... whether praise or scolding, it speaks to too much investment and too much available time.

sven_igortsen · 2017-05-10T16:02:05+00:00

I feel you man. Yeah you slipped up and you need to do better. But 1.5 years of getting no sex, that bitch deserves whatever you dished out. But the fact she can affect you like this says you have work to do.

On working directly on your temper, I had a lot of success practicing this technique taught by Stephen Stosny. http://www.compassionpower.com/core-value-conditioning-for-anger/

[deleted] · 2017-05-10T18:04:53+00:00

Think about your text "Wow". What's the point of that? All it does is make you look defensive. All she wanted was to be validated. And that little word just ruined everything. Here's how I would have handled it.

Her:"Blah blah blah I'm a reactive bitch."

You:"Yeah I guess you're right"

Her: "I'm still a reactive bitch, what are you going to do about it?"

You: .....

Ignore her texts. Game her in person. Don't be angry around her because then she wins.

wn36 · 2017-05-11T00:33:56+00:00

This is one of the best threads I've seen on here to date. Dudes helping dudes. Excellent advice and analytics here.