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32

DEER

Defend

Explain

Excuse

Rationalize

Trouble at the DMV

For a few years now on this forum I’ve left this unexplained and relied on the Socratic method. Unfortunately there’s been an influx of noobs and I’m tired of pointing people to search the forum. Sooner or later Nooby, most likely sooner, you’re going to get told that you are DEER’ing or you DEER’ed your answer.

I grew up as a car guy, in a car guy house. I remember at 5 years old changing the jets on a carburetor with my dad. Growing up wrenching on cars taught me the first fundamentals in the scientific method. My dad told me on old cars, “If it aint running it’s either not getting gas, or not getting spark. That’s it. Nothing more complicated so start from there.” To this day, I’m a problem solver. My first metaphorical question is, “Is it getting gas or spark?” I need to know the ins and outs on something to understand it. In my own personal solipsism I’ve been known to project this on others.

That’s its curse unfortunately. Add to the fact the being a man, my primary focus in communication is information and it’s a natural instinct to want to DEER. I get it, everyone here has made the mistake of wanting to just tell someone one more bit of info, so then they’d understand, or get it.

The problem with DEER as it relates to women is they see it as confirmation that their feelings are in fact, true. A woman is a social creature, who communicates through feeling, and inference, and as such you blathering on about why you didn’t take the garbage out reinforces her social position with you. Remember, in her brain words are what she uses to wear away the problem. So she hears you “wearing away the problem.”

DEER with men can be just as detrimental also. In the hands of a beta it just another weasel tool he uses to try and manipulate those he is inferior to. How many of you have been sitting on the other side of a cashier, desk clerk, or worse, a government agent only to be told, “Well that’s not my job?”. It’s an answer for sure, but not the answer you want. Your brain goes into a seizure thinking, “Well get me the fucking asshole whose job it is instead of wasting my time!” The more they go on about how it's not their fault because they weren't trained properly or some such excuse, you just want to reach across and choke them out of existence. From the beginning if they just said, "I don't know." or "I'm sorry I don't know how to help you." you would have been in a completely different frame of mind.

 

I'm gonna lay down the law!

 

Early in my marriage I was pretty ruthless with the finances, (sprinkle a little alpha on bro.) and right after we got married I sat my wife down and gave her the budget. I was proud of my work and had every detail laid out; So much for groceries, so much for utilities, a house down payment plan, even a fun budget. I sat back ready to bask in the glory of her gratitude. Instead, the look on my wife’s face was priceless; it started with contempt then moved in anger. At that point I did the worst thing possible, I DEER’d.

I yammered on about how it was good for the future, she could stay home for a while if we had kids, we could get a house soon, etc. She exploded. She started mumbling about how she didn’t work this hard her whole life to get to a point where she had an allowance like some 13 year old, how she was a grown ass woman with her own job and her own money. Now the reality of the situation was she made roughly one third of what I did. Fully 2/3 of the budget was supported by my salary, and she couldn’t live on her own in our expensive cost of living state. So in the interest of insanity I doubled down and tried to show her the numbers i came up with. The more I tried to explain the deeper the hole I dug. In fact all I was doing was solidifying her feelings on all of it. I even told her to "just calm down, she's over reacting." You know, cause I needed to manage her feelz too. That ought to fix everything. I think there was a week of silent treatment after that one, and the budget was never spoken of again until I swallowed the pill.

Fast forward to a couple of years ago, and we hit a major financial crisis. She was a stay at home mom, and now earning nothing; luckily my income had more than increased to offset the loss of hers. But this was a catastrophe that my planning didn’t account for. So I did the right thing and cashed in some securities and we took a short term financial hit. I did it all on my own other than consulting some experts. We had a budget meeting and I sat her down and told her, “This was the decision I made.” That was it. She was floored at first, asked why I would make such a huge decision without consulting her. I kept it simple, and repeated “It was a hard decision, and it needed to be made. It was my decision.” I owned it. I didn’t try to feed her facts or data, I owned the decision. She said one last thing, “Ok, I wish you had talked to me, but I trust you.” That was it.

 

Respect is earned

 

Whether you are a man or a woman, when you are the person standing in front of the DMV clerk what you don’t want to hear is, “Not my job buddy. You are an asshole for getting in the wrong line. What’s wrong with you?” And that’s exactly what you are saying when you DEER. It wasn’t me, it was something else, not my job buddy. In the early example with my wife, all she heard was “You need to not spend, you’re contributions are for naught.” What she needed was, “Hey this is going to be hard, it’s going to be a sacrifice, but can you trust me?” At the point she asks for more information, then it’s appropriate to give details and plans. Once she had internalized that I fully owned it then she would be ready to discuss information.

Whether it’s your boss, your wife or your customer in front of you, you need to own it.

“Hey Peter did you file your TPS reports?”

“No I did not Bob.”

“Honey did you take out the garbage?”

“No I did not.”

“Why do I have to be on a budget?”

“It’s the right thing to do.”

I think fundamentally DEER comes from a place of a lack of confidence and a fear of judgement. People who do it are afraid of the consequences of their actions or inaction. They are afraid of people judging them or their decisions. In my case I was afraid of my wife's emotions when I asked her to do a very hard thing for the future of our family. Get called out by your boss for not doing a required task? Maybe your afraid of owning the consequences like a man, or maybe your afraid to rock the boat and make changes. Why the fuck do we do TPS reports? In the end it comes down to judgement. If you are the only one who can judge your actions, why would you need to explain them to anyone else?


[–]redearththeory 11 points12 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Women intuitively understand that the real game of power is not based on the facts of the situation, its who gets to make the decisions. The most important elements of the interactions you describe are 1) who gets to make the decisions of whether the behavior is acceptable and 2) whether the behavior needs to change. By criticizing the man, a woman asserts her right to make these decision. DEERing may dispute some facts in the current situation but, by petitioning for her approval, it loses the real game by leaving unchallenged her assertion of power, dominance and that she gets to make the decisions. I think we all experienced this before we found MRP in the form of walking away from an argument after DEERing thinking "I know my facts were right but it sure feels like she made me her bitch there, why did I end up apologizing?". All shit test responses simply refuse to let her make these decisions. That's why they work.

Whether it’s your boss... you need to own it.

Work is an interesting example. The critical factor in these interactions is dominance. If I'm happy with my boss being dominant (maybe because he's a good leader and a man I trust) then there's no issue with dominance and if he asks my why I didn't finish my TPS reports, I'll just explain, and maybe apologize if the delay was due to my disorganization or something. This is a healthy and efficient subordinate relationship that well functioning organizations are built on. But in reality my boss is a asshole who leads us nowhere and produces nothing, so I refuse to let him dominate me in any way.

[–]UEMcGill[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is why I write this stuff. To get people thinking out loud and to voice their thoughts on it. Very good analysis.

[–]BobbyPeru 10 points11 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

People who do it are afraid of the consequences of their actions or inaction. They are afraid of people judging them or their decisions.

Women view this as weakness and will go into shit test turbo mode. I think this is a great concept to introduce early in RP. I myself didn't realize how much I DEERed until the concept was explained to me, and then I realized I was DEERing almost EVERYTHING. It takes a tough conscious effort not to DEER until it becomes 2nd nature.

[–]bogeyd6 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

One of the hardest things a man can do is realize he doesn't have to explain himself to anyone.

[–]drty_pr 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women view this as weakness and will go into shit test turbo mode

My wife is a ruthless shit test master. This is so true. She actually goes in for the kill on any sign of weakness. Even calls my buddies out for being pussies. Lol

[–]anonymoustrper 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm only beginning to internalize this. One year into marriage and daughter and now I've to learn this. Interestingly, it seems to have translated to some work interactions, but not yet at home.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I get the "I wish you had talked to me about it before you just decided," bit as well. But talking about it first just leads to more traps. Either you put yourself in the position of looking like you need her to decide for you or if you don't go with her recommendation, you don't listen to her. Lastly, my personal favorite, "you are just trying to convince me to do it your way, so why do you even ask my opinion." It's a good point, so I don't anymore. I would rather get shit about not consulting her than be a pussy in her eyes for having to talk before I can decide something.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My simplistic take on this well written post…..

The opposite of assertive, is DEER

+1

[–]juggle4balls 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I would assert you should not DER. Don't Defend, Don't Excuse, and Don't Rationalize. Explaining, that is where i disagree.

A good captain, with a good first mate, is a team. You explaining why you made a BIG decision teaches the first mate how to run the ship in your absence. I'm not saying you have to do that for every decision (and certainly only BIG decisions), but you should do it more often than not. It ultimately earns respect.

If you never explain, its a dictatorship. That's not a leader. A leader motivates people to move towards a common goal. The absence of why a decision is made (explaining) causes a team to disengage. The further they disengage, you have have mutiny.

I believe you can explain without defending, excusing, or rationalizing.

[–]rocknrollchuck 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think we try to explain things because we believe that once people have the information about the particulars, they will be more likely to accept what we are telling them without further challenge. The problem comes because many times when I try to explain, my "explanation" is really a defense, an excuse or a rationalization. Also, by its nature an explanation is opening up your reasoning to criticism by others.

The pattern as I see it should be establishing your authority to make the decision first, THEN the explanation of the details later to clarify if necessary - but only after your authority has been firmly established. Below is a quote from a book that made this difference clear for me:

Title, position, and authority may hold power, but influence travels through relationships and captures the heart. And in the end, influence is the fountainhead of power. The essence of influence is to win the heart and soul of another person through the strength of your own character and personhood. This is why influence is always more powerful than authority. Authority can shape what a person does, but influence shapes who a person becomes. Influence is born out of trust and finds its strength in the connection of heart and soul, when we are committed to doing what is right. Spiritual influence is not only a gift; it is a responsibility. Influence is contagious, like the flu. Through our character we pass on attitudes, values, and other life-shaping virtues. All of us pass a bit of ourselves on to others. You better like who you are and make what you give to others from yourself a gift and not a curse.

Influence can do what command can never do; it can win the hearts of people. You can pay people to do a job, but you can’t pay them to change their minds or their hearts. External power has the limitation of bringing external change. Influence is the material of internal power. Influence is born out of a person and translates to how it affects the heart of another person. Real influence changes how a person feels about something. It has direct impact not only on how a person acts, but also on what he believes and what he is committed to. We understand the difference between authority and influence when we watch our children grow up. What your children act like when they’re under your authority is very different from who they become as a result of your influence. Great parenting is all about influence. It is more about shaping values than it is about setting boundaries. As a parent, I’ve discovered that the love and respect my children have for me are far more powerful than any rules or potential punishment. There’s no more rewarding experience than when my children are motivated by their own value systems to do what is right.

[–]ChadCon3000 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

What book is this quote from?

[–]rocknrollchuck 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The book is called Chasing Daylight by Erwin McManus.

[–]Big_Daddy_PDX 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think fundamentally DEER comes from a place of a lack of confidence and a fear of judgement.

I agree. In general a Captain doesn't want to be questioned by subordinates. Your first example of filing the TPS reports is funny. I've surprised some leaders in my company that I indirectly report to by essentially saying that same response and taking accountability. It shocks them onto their ass that someone could confidently admit they failed to do something. But the moment I take responsibility, we move to the next step- solution.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

While I agree that one should not DEER a wife, I am not so sure your boss deserves same treatment.

If one of my guys simply says "No, I didnt do it" when I ask about a task I assigned then he likely should prepare for the bullet. I may not do it that second but its gonna happen.

Just because something works in ones Sexual Strategy does not mean its applicable across the board.

[–]UEMcGill[S] 6 points7 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

It still holds true. If I ask a direct employee if he has his TPS reports, and he starts to explain that so and so won't return his calls, or he was late to work and still working on it, that's DEER and unacceptable.

In your example:

If one of my guys simply says "No, I didnt do it" when I ask about a task I assigned then he likely should prepare for the bullet. I may not do it that second but its gonna happen.

If after he says, "No I didn't do it" he then goes into blame mode, well that's still DEER. But if he owns it with "Yeah I didn't do it boss, and here's what I'm going to do to fix it" or "I need input from you before I can fix it..." That's not DEER. Also you asking for more information, is not him DEER'ing either.

As a boss myself, I don't want to hear someone DEER. I want to know either how they are going to fix it, what tools they need from me, or when it will be done. If I don't understand it's my job as a leader to seek clarification.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Big difference between "No I didnt do it" and "No, I didnt do it yet, I had a major fire to put out on the XYZ account. It will be sorted by end of week"

[–]enfier1 points [recovered] (10 children) | Copy Link

I don't care why. It's irrelevant to planning for the future. Maybe his kid was sick, maybe there was some emergency, maybe he just didn't give a shit and went to the beach. If there's no overall problem with his performance than I'm not even going to ask - I just want to know when it will be done. If there is an overall problem with performance, then hearing the bullshit excuses isn't going to make it any better.

I just don't want to spend 5 minutes discussing failure when we've all got better things to do. If someone just comes out and tells me it's not done then we can move on.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

You cant manage people when you dont know the reason they didn't finish an assigned task.

Again, my point is that valuable RP tactics are not applicable universally, they are for sexual strategy.

If my summer intern asked why I came in late he gets a similar answer as my wife and plates.

My boss gets more respect. He gets approptiate communication.

This is in my interest. One needs to be appear to be a team player to get ahead.

Women? Dime a dozen and they treat you better when they know you know it too

[–]bogeyd6 0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

My background is management of large groups of employees and I can tell you that when you come up to the big corner office and sit across from me and give excuses for all the things you did not do. My respect for you is instantly gone. No, I didn't do it and I will make sure it gets done right away. That's the answer I expect to hear. An employee owning a problem and taking immediate steps to correct it. Typically we say "it's not that you failed, it's how you handle the failure". There is a big difference in what you are saying here and why you think it's not strategy to use in business life. This typically relates to management styles and just like sexual strategy YMMV. Granted I am getting more mileage out of DEER and Assertiveness than the average manager because I am at the 20000ft view and can engage in more forward thinking.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

No I didnt do it and ill do it right now is fine to tell your boss.

No i didn't do it is not fine to tell your boss and is fine to tell your woman

[–]anonymoustrper 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Meh.. I've said no I didn't do it and I won't do it (because "it" is stupid) to my boss. It has a cost, namely that I've rarely worked for more than a year and a half at any one place.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Its always best to leave a job on your terms

[–]anonymoustrper 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Yep... It has always been me initiating the termination.

[–]red_blue_and_hot 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Obviously, you can't just leave it at "No, I didn't do it." but you can still own your actions.

Usually, it's followed by "I will go do it right now." or "I will as soon as (some condition is met)." Sometimes, it's "It can't happen, because (reasons)."

That's still way better than "Ugh, no, I couldn't because (whine whine whine)."

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Absolutely. But with a bitch its better to just say "No, I didnt do it"

One case you want to establish and maintain dominance. The other case requires much more communication (not supplication).

I am highlighting that sexual strategy techniques do not perfectly translate to the business world

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great write up - thank you The budget issue hits home for me. Im middle aged and sadly never used one until now. Being self employed - I find it really tough because my salary income tends to be very inconsistent. But the importance of it very obvious to me.

[–]bangorlol 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Solid post. I can definitely empathize with the "wanting to give one more bit of information" point.

[–]Aechzen 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

There are all kinds of things to DEER on, versus just making a decision and owning it.

I'm going on a guys-only hunting trip several states away in November. I simply bought plane tickets and announced it. My wife has shit tested me about it repeatedly. It's still worth it; going to see my college friends, going to see some family, and going to have a long weekend doing my own thing. (First I confirmed that kid coverage was done.)

She wanted to be consulted, mostly so she could negotiate down how long I would be away, and find other ways to take the fun or convenience out of my travels. She has done this before, so I've entirely stopped playing that game.

The money example was a good one.

[–]playinthegame1005 -3 points-2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

The budget though )) I would have left your cheap ass. No offense dude, I am just seriously anti frugal. And counting dimes does not seem very alpha. But good points about owning stuff.

[–]UEMcGill[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

counting dimes does not seem very alpha

I see you're a visitor from other subs, so I'll take a moment to explain. Being "Alpha" is about giving yourself options; about embracing abundance. Often the first thing we tell a guy in his deadbeadroom is to get his shit straight. If you are at home wondering if the lights are going to get shut off, or if you can buy groceries and wonder why she won't suck your cock with abandon then yeah, it's not very alpha.

In my short statement about the budget, I challenge to to explain where you go the idea I was frugal vs being financially responsible?

[–]playinthegame1005 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

I was half joking, however I am somewhat irritated by people preoccupied by money - wether irresponsible spending or counting every fucking dime. Make "enough" money, and keep your needs below your means. That's all there is to it. This applies to both chicks and dudes. Nothing sexy about being obsessed with budget. It's just as bad as compulsive shopping.

Ps Financially responsible is don't take out insane credits on cars and mortgages. Frugal is budget for fun and groceries.

[–]UEMcGill[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

I do everything in life to meet my mission. Budgeting, career, lifting, studying; these are all tools to meet that mission. Like any tool, they are only good when used correctly and applied in the moment of need. You don't use a hammer when obviously you need a screwdriver.

When my wife became a stay at home mom, frugal was absolutely the right tool for the job. We needed to retrain our spending habits and build a new system to make it work for us. That tool box happened to have a "Fun budget" and a "Grocery" budget. The result is my wife has been a SAHM to 3 kids in one of the most expensive housing markets in the country. We have our own home, we go on vacations, and the kids are in all the activities that they need to develop into mature, responsible adults who are not reliant on mommy or daddy.

Make "enough" money, and keep your needs below your means. That's all there is to it.

That's the first step. I'm afraid if you ever want to go beyond living pay check to pay check it's limiting. It's literally a statement that "The status quo is plenty good enough!" I know people who do that, they live below their means, and make just enough. They buy used cars with financing. They get a house with 3x the salary, they go on a vacation every two years and at the end of the month, there's 10 bucks in the bank account more than there was before. Is that all there is to it? They lived below their means for sure. But they definitely weren't maximizing potential.

Why are you so afraid of maximizing potential? Why would anyone settle for 'good enough' with something that impacts your life so deeply?

[–]playinthegame1005 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

It's a difference in mentality. Money does not define me and they in itself are not my life goal or anywhere near it. If you have a career that you are dedicated to - money, at least here in US, will follow. I also never relied on SO's income in any major financial planning which helps as well. I am not knocking your lifestyle, just noting that it's pointless to live in expensive house in a high priced market if the cost involves subjecting your and your family's life to strict budget adherence. That's living for things and I believe it should be the other way around.

[–]UEMcGill[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Nope. You're mincing words and questioning the language I use to justify and defend your position; namely that its OK to be good enough with finances.

At it's core, it shouldn't be a difference in mentality. Again, career and money are tools for me. At what point did I say I was living for things? My mission is my goal in life. I want an awesome life, with intimate personal relationships.

You are either saying that money shouldn't be a tool, or it's not an important tool for your mission (whatever that is). If it's not a tool for you, then I think you are naive or a dreamer. If you are saying it is a tool, then in essence agree with me. You may not like that I chose a handsaw when an ax would do, but in the end we are still talking about tools.

I will chastise you about one point. You read too much into what's written without getting all the information, then you pass judgement.

I'm not knocking your lifestyle, [but I'm going to] just noting that it's pointless to live in expensive house in a high priced market if the cost involves subjecting your and your family's life to strict budget adherence.

This goes right to what I'm talking about, my choice was ultimately about investment. Right off the bat you say it's pointless to live in an expensive market like I do. But what would your opinion be if I told you, that I make a salary that's twice the national average? That the best path to that was to live where I do, the pharmaceutical capital of the world? I've had a career that is incredibly fulfilling, and made some money to boot. Oh, and in a year I'll sell my house and cash in on a fuckton of equity and move to a place where cost of living is much lower? Was it still pointless to be frugal and live in an expensive place? Because that was all part of the plan to focus on my mission.

Me, I'm smart and deliberate with my money. Your attitude I see as the guy who doesn't go to the doctor for 10 years and then wonders why he's got stage 4 cancer, you know, because he felt fine.

[–]playinthegame1005 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes I personally don't like the frugality tool. Not sure why the good enough statement is mentioned several times either. Placing more value on intangibles does not mean not caring.

Again not knocking your personal choices. I'm sure you have your reasons. It's simply personal view of role of tools and balance between value of tomorrow and present moment.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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