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I saw it a lot when reading The Rational Male. The idea of hypergamy and how I ended up a BP explained. Why women, and people act the way they do psychologically and the cause and effect that logically leads to the modern day social dynamic. Ian Ironwood's Manosphere also does a good job of explaining how we logically got to Marriage 2.0, rampant feminism from both men and women, and the spawning of red pill men from the void their fathers left. Because it was so easily overlooked before, but now made such clear sense, I've taken to searching other areas of my life for more psychologically logical answers when I run into a problem with people and what drives them. An example follows:

 

My kids had been having a great time flying kites on the beach the few windy days we had down there. We only had one kite, a small one I bought for the 4yo last year. So I would sit there next to one of them while they flew it. I decided to buy one for myself this year so I could fly with my kid in a more father-daughter we're-both-doing-it kind of way. We were pretty excited one day when it was really windy down on the beach. We get on the sand and, in contrast to the multiple take-offs and crashes we've experienced on less windy days, this time all it took was a little toss to get the kite up into the wind. In my usual fashion I praised my 4yo holding onto the kite that she did such a great job getting the kite into the air. I told her how much of a pro she was and offered several "good jobs" and "you did its". When she let a bunch of string out and the kite got up there I continued praising "you did it you're flying your kite!" trying to elicit joy from her by overstating her accomplishments. I did the same thing with the 2yo who I let use my kite.

 

Not 2 minutes into flying they both are saying they want to go back up to the condo, much to my disappointment. I wanted to fly kites with my kids. I tried to talk them out of it but they wanted to head back. So I sent them back with their grandmother and sat there flying my damn kite by myself on the beach. I thought to myself: "Something just happened here. Something happened and it was likely my fault. What did I do wrong that made them want to leave so fast? Kids love flying kites." It could be that they're just kids and their mind changes at the snap of a finger. But possibly, I thought that there might just be some kind of logical psychologically explained trigger where the kids didn't want to, or weren't excited to fly kites anymore, and then it hit me. I had praised them so much that I basically gave them the idea that they did indeed do it. That they did what we came down here to do, that there was nothing more to master or try because I told them they were pros. They were likely thinking "I did it, now what's next?". In trying to elicit joy and fun from them I was actually taking it away because there was no further joy to work for.

 

This makes perfect sense, and has parallels with women and with the goals we set and reach for ourselves. With your woman, this is part of why you don't put her on a pedestal. This also is a part of why dread works. You don't want to give her that feeling that she is your everything, that she can do no wrong, and that you are giving all you can give of yourself to her. You want her to feel like there's a possibility you have more options, and that she could possibly have more from you. If she knows she "did it", knows she has you on lockdown or that she's getting all you have to offer, she's going to naturally think "I did it. What (or who) is next?"

We see the same things with personal goals that we set then reach. If you reach your goal to bench body weight how do you feel after that? Do you stop there? Is that what you'll bench from now on until your end of days? No, you think "I did it, what's next". You set a new goal either benching or maybe switch to focus more on squats or deadlift.

That's the same thing my kids did. I'm not saying you shouldn't praise your kids. Far from it. But I will certainly tailor the message more towards "you are doing a good job" in the future rather than "You did it." And I'll try and offer them another goal to keep them hooked: "Can you make the kite do a trick?". I encourage you to keep this in mind, and in addition next time someone acts a certain way that is confusing or unexpected, remember that nearly all actions can be traced back to a psychological purpose of "How can I make an outcome more positive for me?", "How can I make an outcome less negative for me?", or "How can I meet this or reach my next goal?".


[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Grandmom says, "wow, you two really had to pee!"

[–]Nyirripi6 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Re. the kids, reminds me of the various "don't say 'good job'" advice that has been appearing recently (opposite all late 20th century child rearing advice.) Here's one: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-power-prime/200909/parenting-dont-praise-your-children

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great find. This goes right along with that theme and ill definately have this in mind in the future.

[–]jigglydee0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for the link.

[–]lionmenden0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I try to instead say "I'm proud of you" and if it's not completely obvious why, I'll say "I'm proud of you for ...."

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Start teaching your kids to goalset in small ways.

Getting your wife to goal set in a way that aligns with your overall vision is also a good thing.

good job.

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Are you sure they didn't jump on the X-Box when they got back? Kids USED to like to fly kites. Now they get withdrawal when apart from the X-Box for more than an hour.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Luckily the X-Box is in the basement and they hardly know what it is. The IPad however...

[–]JDRoedellMRP APPROVED!1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I have kids, 4 and 6. They do crave the iPad but we put settings on them that only allows 1 hour of use a day. Then it turns into a paperweight until the next day. Now if I could only do the same thing with my wife's smart phone....

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

at 2 and 4?

( seriously, that early??)

[–]SexistFlyingPig2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The common theme in current childhood education is to praise effort (when there is success) rather than treating the success as a characteristic. So, a "You really worked hard on this test, and it shows" versus "You're really good at this." The latter shows that the student doesn't have to try any more. In fact, trying would be bad because if they didn't experience the same success, it would show that the effort had transformed them from "good" to "bad".

It's a very demotivating thing to be told you're intrinsically good at something (without effort) and a very motivating thing to be praised for your hard work.

When I was in high school, I had a really bad 3rd quarter one year. But some things in my life changed, and I worked much harder for the 4th quarter and the final exams. My success was entirely the result of my hard work rather than my "being smart".

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

The kite insight is possible. But what you did was, in a sense, set up a covert contract. "Dad does this nice thing (new kite, walk to the beach, creates the environment). Therefore, you guys MUST reciprocate with enjoyment and a memorable fun time." Your disappointment stems from the fact that YOUR expectation of someone else's emotional response wasn't met.

And of course, there's always the possibility that they got bored, not because of some post-millenial social conditioning and unmet expectations, but because, you know, they're two and four years old.

But, crapping on that stuff aside, I see your point about setting the bar high and always working towards the end goal, which may in fact be the journey itself. True.

[–]zxDanKwan1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think you're reaching a bit far here. By your definition, every time you try to do something nice for someone else without talking to them about it, you'd be establishing a covert contract. By what you say, even getting someone a birthday gift would be a break in frame, since you'd be giving someone something you EXPECT them to like.

There was no covert contract here. OP has flown kites with his kid(s) before. He has first-hand experience with these individuals and has seen their reactions. He even notes that they were excited that day.

OP is right on the money with his assessment. He didn't provide enough direction, or any future steps, and that convinced them they achieved all they needed to, and they lost interest.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

By your definition, every time you try to do something nice for someone else without talking to them about it, you'd be establishing a covert contract.

Not quite. The "contract" term means that there's something in return. I do this, therefore you do that. You pay me $5000, I design a modified machine tool for the factory. Just doing something quietly doesn't constitute a CC; you also need the implied "consideration" in return. When the consideration is never spoken of, it's covert. When the consideration fails to materialize and then affects you emotionally.. that's where the problems arise. That's the crux of the "nice guy" problem.

I absolutely support the OP flying a kite with his kids, and his goal of making great memories with them, whether he states this to them or not. My issue is that if he ties his own emotional state, (his disappointment) to his expectations of how his kids react, he's going to be in for a rough ride as a father.

He didn't provide enough direction, or any future steps, and that convinced them they achieved all they needed to, and they lost interest.

Agreed. Having fun should be about the "having fun" part, and not about "OK, great, we successfully had fun. Now what?".

[–]zxDanKwan0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I see what you mean, and I do agree with you in principle, but, in this particular case, I think there's an extra factor in that the kid agreed to go.

There was obviously some sort of discussion about what would happen, and the kid gave all the signals that it would be enjoyed. That's what takes this beyond a covert contract in my eyes. Had his daughter said from the start "no, dad, I'm not really interested in flying kites anymore," and that's where he got butt-hurt, then yeah, you and I would be in lock-step, that would be a covert contract.

In this case, there was explicit agreement and interest to go do the kite flying established. Explicit is the opposite of covert.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I can see this. Though it seems at most to be a covert contract with myself, because I was not disappointed in them (else it would have definately been a CC with them) as theyre kids. But I did set up the expectation that I'd get enjoyment and then was disappointed when I didnt. I think it was mitigated by my disappointment turning into "ok what did I do wrong" rather than "I'm angry things ended up this way".

[–]bogeyd6MRP MODERATOR0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Love the username and great call on the covert contract spotting.

[–]rpnow0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Spotting this same thing with my kids, similar ages. I've been trying to build a competitive spirit into both of them with a lot of success, "Can you kite go as high as your sister's?", or "Can you make your brother's crash?"

It's a great observation that this leads to oneitis with women. Recently my wife asked if she could fulfill a fantasy of mine, and did a great job. Now her body isn't quite up to my specs [mines not either, leadership failure], and the environment wasn't quite the way I pictured it, but to be honest she made an amazing effort and I was pretty happy. She asked, "was that the way you wanted it?" Without thinking, wanting to praise good behavior, I said, "Perfect babe, you nailed it." I've wondered since then if I set up a ceiling that has limited that particular thing.

[–]jigglydee0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I've been trying to build a competitive spirit into both of them with a lot of success, "Can you kite go as high as your sister's?", or "Can you make your brother's crash?"

That's interesting. Why between siblings? and how are you planning on preventing sibling rivalry/jealousy between the two especially as they get older and start to drift apart or have different interests?

[–]rpnow0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Just an example, the competition is usually between then and me. Or sometimes it's like "let's see who can do the biggest _" between the three of us, or with the neighbor kid. Not worried about sibling rivalry, everything seems to be done in love and with humor. I may regret that one day though.

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