TheRedArchive

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A quote to start us off:

Most men spend their days struggling to evade three questions, the answers to which underlie man's every thought, feeling and action, whether he is consciously aware of it or not: Where am I? How do I know it? What should I do?

By the time they are old enough to understand these questions, men believe that they know the answers. Where am I? Say, in New York City. How do I know it? It's self-evident. What should I do? Here, they are not too sure — but the usual answer is: whatever everybody does. The only trouble seems to be that they are not very active, not very confident, not very happy — and they experience, at times, a causeless fear and an undefined guilt, which they cannot explain or get rid of.

They have never discovered the fact that the trouble comes from the three unanswered questions — and that there is only one science that can answer them: philosophy.

  • Ayn Rand, Address To The Graduating Class of The United States Military Academy at West Point New York -- March 6, 1974

We've been seeing some lost seekers lately. Guys asking the Third Question Rand outlines above. Some are at a basic level of, "I get that I need to live for me, but someone needs to tell me how." Other guys are like, "I've totally transformed myself. I'm interesting, good looking, fit, but bored. Someone tell me what to do next."

Wake up boys. This is your life and it's ending one minute at a time. I'm going to guess that MRP appealed to you because it gave you a vision, a vision of how to become the person you've always wanted to be. How to become The Most Interesting Man in the World. But that's just a recipe to fake it until you make it. All Your Gains Are Belong to Us... unless you have or develop an explicit philosophy that really makes you that guy. As the man said, "Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken."

That philosophy is rational egoism; there's simply no way around it. Those of you who think you can sneak Christianity in the back door by spouting some Red Pill-esque Bible verses are doomed to either outright contradict the teachings of your faith or sink back into beta-dom by being consistent with them. Those of you carrying on about Stoicism are simply kicking the can down the road, and at some point you too will have to choose.

I'm not here to tell you that embracing Rational Egoism will be easy; on the contrary, the Altruism we were all raised on is the core of the Blue Pill and tough as fuck to undo. But you must undo it, whether you knowingly do so or not. If you don't, it's back to the Matrix with you, no exceptions. If you try to do so subconsciously or half-assedly, you will find things unnecessarily volatile in your life. Smooth sailing one day, maelstrom the next.

I personally have no stake in your religious beliefs. You can be as rational or irrational as you want. Of course I have no stake in your success or happiness either. (And I'm definitely not here to debate whether or not there is a God.) But the Truth is the Truth: you ditch the Altruism or you get eaten by it, fast or slow.

So if you find yourself wondering, "What next?" I'll give you one last hint: get your philosophical house in order.


[–]handfulofnuts9 points10 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I read something yesterday, I think on Ryan Holiday's blog, that said (paraphrasing here): We're always asking "What is the meaning of life?" The answer is that you don't get to ask that question. Life asks you the question, and you answer with your actions.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Have you read the obstacle is the way?

[–]handfulofnuts1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It's on the list.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Great book, I thought of it when reading this post and then to see your quote I had to bring it up.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I audiobooked that one...first quarter was good, but it seemed like by the end it was just an endless stream of "you can do it"s or other motivational quotes. To each his own though.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It seemed very "pop" philosophy to me. Lots of rah rah, not much epictitus, even less Zeno. A fun weekend read but not much magical. It did, however, get me to thinking the things the eventually had me google married red pill ..

[–]ChngChek4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Excellent post.

whatever everybody does

Consider great men whose legacy have stood the test of time. Say, Da Vinci. Sure, he was presumed homosexual. He didn't spend time gaming women, or whinging about doing laundry. But he kicked ass in so many fields. He became a complete polymath. Died in the 1500s and he's still talked about and admired today. Incredible.

Why do you know the name Archimedes? Igor Stravinsky or Usain Bolt? These men had a mission. Yes, they had/have talent. But they also had Discipline. Sacrifices. Self belief. Mistakes and reflections. Whether you believe Malcolm Gladwell that you need to invest 10000 hours to master a craft or not, you have to invest yourself into something and not be half assed about it. Presumably investment in the self, in what you live for, would follow the same principles as financial investment. High risk:high return. Low:low.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Solid discussion piece

Those of you carrying on about Stoicism are simply kicking the can down the road, and at some point you too will have to choose.

I'm one of those guys, could you expand on this?

If I'm reading it right, you're saying we need to embrace Rational Egoism('Intellectual Hedonism')?

How does that translate to optimal life satisfaction vice becoming a gluttonous fool?

[–]SorcererKingMRP SAGE - MRP MODERATOR[S] 6 points7 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

Welcome, I've been expecting you.

Stoicism holds knowledge in high regard, to the point of it being the source of virtue. While I certainly find that admirable, it also preaches what amounts to indifference to experience, which, while a useful skill in some situations, is fundamentally at odds with the pursuit of happiness and living life on this earth. More fundamentally, to my knowledge Stoicism offers no clear guidance on the Altruism/Egoism dichotomy.

So using Stoicism to control negative emotion can be a powerful trick in the beginning when the negative emotion is inappropriate, but at some point a transition would ideally occur wherein core philosophy has shifted, one's emotional compass points true North towards his values, and that tight control is no longer needed. Until that moment using Stoicism to control emotions is using it like a crutch, whereas getting explicit about core philosophy and values is the true healing.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

More fundamentally, to my knowledge Stoicism offers no clear guidance on the Altruism/Egoism dichotomy.

Exactly. Stoicism is orthogonal to the issue you're discussing here.

I don't understand why you mentioned it to begin with. I used 10 minutes on google when I first read your post because I thought rational egoism must mean something else to the Ayn Rand crowd.

[–]SorcererKingMRP SAGE - MRP MODERATOR[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The dichotomy is the issue, and anyone who says, "I have a philosophy - Stocism," will not be consciously choosing Rational Egoism or Altruism, and thus they will likely end up in the "eaten slowly" category.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, philosophy is a wide subject. I'm a Stoic. I'm also a rational egoist. I'm mostly a consequentialist, but I'm also so pessismistic about human nature and intelligence that I think we're often better off relying on deontology.

It's not like one thing excludes the others.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm going to think on this further and get back to you

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

I'm back and I'm glad I am because this was a very good discussion.

To get right into the meat of this, I'd ask you this question.

Do you not use a hammer, screw driver, or other tool when you need it? At no point do you 'transcend' the need for that tool?

The same goes for using Stoicism as the mental tool to pursue the most optimal life. I don't think of every goal or decision being one that must align with what would a stoic do, but rather what is it that I want and how do I get there?

Along the path, life happens. Positive, negative, and indifferent alike - emotions happen and my tool for not letting myself get caught up in the swing of an emotional response is the implementation of stoic teachings.

You can see, the can isn't kicked as the issue is resolved immediately.

My football team wins the Superbowl - that's cool. I'm not losing my shit or shitfaced drunk because of it. They lose the Superbowl, that's cool too, I'm not shitfaced drunk or depressed because of it.

[–]SorcererKingMRP SAGE - MRP MODERATOR[S] 1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

As I said above, Stoicism can be a good tool, yes, but not a good life philosophy. If your goal is to not do things that are rash or impulsive because you're overrun with emotion, then Stoicism as a tool is good. Where Stoicism goes awry is when it is taken to the extreme of total emotional suppression, that is, when it is taken as a life philosophy.

Emotions reflect your assessment of your situation as measured against your values, those being the things you seek to gain and keep. Fail to achieve (or lose) some values? You'll probably feel sad or even mad, depending on circumstance. Obtain a value in a virtuous way? You deserve to feel the happiness that comes with that. Stoicism would rob you of both experiences, even when both experiences are completely valid.

I can accept that you use Stoicism as a tool, but if that's true, then riddle me this: have you consciously chosen rational egoism, or is your tongue still blue?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

This caused me to step back and really look at what was going on within myself and my approach to this life.

I have to concede this one as you are right, I have said Stoicism is my life philosophy, but it truly isn't. I've been using it as a tool, much like a Gerber, a little multi tool used often, but still just a tool.

Rational egoism, which I understand as choosing to live in a way where I pursue my goal's and take actions that lead me towards what I want, is more of the actual life philosophy I have been following.

This isn't a case where I admit I follow RE or I'm a blue pill fuck as I have no problem breaking from the 'Red Pill' label, it is simply, I live my life in a manner where I am getting everything from the world I can. I set my goals and achieve them feeling both the happiness as well as negative emotions along the way.

I guess I have found, in my case, that the most optimal way to live is by following the life philosophy of rational egoism while using stoicism as a tool along the way.

[–]SorcererKingMRP SAGE - MRP MODERATOR[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

I don't think the issue is a "RE or BP fuck" dichotomy, it's more like "Mostly Red but holding onto to subtle Blue ideas that will poison the well over time."

FWIW, I don't see that in you at all. A friend and I have done a fair bit of writing in this area, and honestly from what I know of you through your writings I think you get it better than most.

Cheers to you for honest self reflection.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Are your writings available, PM if you don't want it public. Always interested in reading up on stuff.

[–]SorcererKingMRP SAGE - MRP MODERATOR[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Our intent was to publish them on a blog or something similar. Let me check in with my coauthor on that score.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

What did you decide here? I'd like to read more.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Are your writings available, PM if you don't want it public. Always interested in reading up on stuff.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

The more I read about this, the more I am directed to RE critics... I can read the theory in original russian if I had the time, but the core thing I am struggling with is simply -

Which I?

I know what I know now, but do not know that which I do not know to make the best decision. I am fine with not knowing whether I am actually making the best choice for me, but going with "to the best of my knowledge"... but in the end, that seems rather short sighted.

Is there anything that you have come across that speaks to this topic / issue?

[–]SorcererKingMRP SAGE - MRP MODERATOR[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think you're talking Rumsfeld's "known unknowns" and "unknown unknowns" now. Rational Egoism does not demand you be omniscient to be moral, just that you use reason on the facts you do have. You certainly may change your mind about things, and you should if more evidence becomes available that would lead you to different conclusions. In the realm of optional values you are free to change your preferences as you like so long as your optional values are truly that - values, and not irrational pursuits.

[–]RoughknotMarried1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

To move away heavy philosophy discussion and back to the intend of the post.

Moving straight to this desired state as OP describes is fucking hard. I think it is completely valid for people trying to find their way after being unplugged to be guided rather that try and answer this question first.

I went through the motions of applying what I learnt from TRP knowing it was working but unsure of the end goal. Why? Because I lacked a sense of self, an identity. I had been the dutiful son, the good student, the faithful husband, the model employee and the super Dad.

I didn't know what I could be let alone what I wanted to be, so I couldn't answer the question of What should I do?.

So I did what others said I should do from TRP, following the advice like painting by numbers.

I've matured now and I know what I should be doing so instead of painting by numbers, I'm choosing my subjects, my methods and creating my own masterpiece.

[–]SorcererKingMRP SAGE - MRP MODERATOR[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

A nice summary, and good metaphor. Many things in life are like this. I can remember the first time all the math teachers had been forcing on me suddenly gelled and it all made sense. A true Eureka moment.

That moment is what many guys here lack and I think are looking for. They paint by the numbers, as you say, but they still aren't seeing the picture, much less moving on to blank canvas.

[–]Boesman12Unplugging1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

That moment is what many guys here lack and I think are looking for. They paint by the numbers, as you say, but they still aren't seeing the picture, much less moving on to blank canvas.

Isn't that why we get told to lift and read the whole time. That is the way to paint by numbers on MRP.

If you do it long enough. And if you keep on developing your self discipline through these methods you eventually get that eureka moment.

I keep getting smaller eureka moments as things are improving. It's like zooming out on google earth.

[–]Big_Daddy_PDX0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

isn't that why we get told to lift and read.

Sort of. The brain is really strong and it can run so many processes at once. Reading is a concentration activity and naturally idles many processes that normally run full strength. Lifting also requires just enough energy to concentrate that the brain idles some processes. If you've never tried it, meditation is really hard because it requires control long those processes you didn't know you had running. Lifting and reading will allow you to reach some level of enlightenment more efficiently; which will actually be the byproduct of knowledge, confidence and physical beauty that you normally acquire.

[–]Chump_No_MoreHard Core Nuclear Navy Red1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great post.

I'm personally a fan of 'enlightened self-interest', same-o, same-o, but at the end of the day, it's always about frame.

The burning question is, "How do you get there?"

You get there, as the OP said, by intimately knowing who you are and what you want.

What works for me...

I have developed a strong vision for what my 'perfect day' would look like... The 'passions' I'm pursuing, the people I invest my time in, lifestyle and leisure activities, etc.

When I'm fully present, I will ask myself, "How does this (activity or person) add value and does it (he/she) further my goal of having the prefect day?" Other times, I 'post mortem' the experience and endeavor to adjust my future behavior accordingly.

This is not an easy thing to do... To kill off those old, unproductive altruistic neural pathways requires a strong sense of self, a desire for self-actualization, the skill of healthy introspection, and herculean levels of discipline.

I'm not there yet, but I make progress every day.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Not a Christian but the whole book of Ecclesiastes in the Bible deals with this issue well. It was supposedly written by the one of the greatest kings who ever lived and a man that could be labeled "King Alpha" if you will. His summary result is to enjoy your time under the sun and make the best of it for yourself as it will all be over soon enough and that there is no real deeper meaning. This philosophy fits within any system of belief you may prescribe to. It's quite freeing to me but maybe I'm just simple.

I also believe that the post-modern removal of violence has created a hole in modern mans life that leaves us questioning existence and purpose. Jack Donovan talks about this in the "The Way of Men".

I started training in Muay Thai and it has given me a deeper feeling of contentment and satisfaction than any other significant accomplishment in my life. I'm going harder and harder lately and I actually love the violence of it all. I don't feel like I'm expressing this well but getting the shit beat out of you and beating the shit out of someone else every day just seems to block out the trivialities of life so well for me.

[–]SorcererKingMRP SAGE - MRP MODERATOR[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

After fighting, everything else in your life got the volume turned down.

-Tyler Durdin, Fight Club

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm a huge fan of Napoleonic, or civil law for this.

Have a set of principles, goals, as vague as you want. Apply them to every situation e.g.

Never get taken advantage of:

Take every situation, any problem, any post here, with that adage in mind, whats the situation where you can maximize it?

It's a nice framework, that I can learn new things, adapt them as needed, and have an idea how to approach things I'm not experienced with.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

So, maybe my understanding is superficial... even so :

Doing what gives you the best ratio of pain to pleasure.

Which You? The you of the moment or the you of tomorrow? Arguably one does not know the other, nor does the present you care about the future you in the strict sense of the word.

What say You?

[–]SorcererKingMRP SAGE - MRP MODERATOR[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I assume this is aimed at me?

The ratio of pain to pleasure is not explicitly part of the formulation of rational egoism. The pursuit of values in a virtuous way is a better description of the ethics of rational egoism.

As such your view could be present-oriented or future-oriented. Ideally that is context-specific, drawing on the totality of your value preferences and current knowledge of and expectations about the future.

In other words, "It depends."

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Aren't you describing - at least in part - ethical egoism ?

Also - I kind of thought that's what rational egotism is-- what's good for me?

I'm still reading up. Sources usually lead to Ayn rand. So ... Eh thus far

[–]SorcererKingMRP SAGE - MRP MODERATOR[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, rational and ethical can be considered synonymous here.

[–]AechzenMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Best sentence I've ever read on this topic: "I didn't use my initiative because nobody told me to."

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I suggest dark triad, be sleightly evil, and Machiavelli.

Don't be the plow house, that wanders the field after you remove the harness.

Your mental model is fucked, get a new one.

[–]cj_aubreyMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

Altruism - the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others.

Fuck altruism. I've never been able to do it. But the thing that has worked for me is my selfish interest in helping other people. I help other people, for free, anonymously if possible, and it makes me feel connected to everything and in the flow of the universe. I have no idea why it has this effect. Volunteering, helping people here, in a few other organizations I'm a part of. I don't care if other people get a benefit, although I try to give them one. I don't care if they like me or know who I am. It works better if I don't get paid in any way. Its not to stroke my ego. There is no covert contract. Fuck their expectations. I don't owe anyone jack shit and its not about being a white knight.

I help people in order to create, to connect with something bigger, to give whatever has been built in me, back to the universe. And for some reason, when I do that, I feel like I don't need anything from anyone and I am sufficient and happy. Its the best thing I've seen in life. Right up there with my kids. That's my answer for question 3.

You mods and senior guys, that dynamic I just described, isn't that why you're here? Why you spend all these hours anonymously helping men you'll never meet for free? That's why I'm here.

[–]ReddJiveMRP APPROVED2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Altruism is actually selfish.

Alturists do things because it makes them look good, and they are upset at others because they aren't doing what the Altruist feels they should be doing.

If you are Rational and in touch with yourself you do thing because they genuinely make you feel better, add value to you, and through that then you add value to others and any situation.

While there is a danger in thinking too much I believe Red Pill makes philosophers of men. How can you not? The mere fact that this things are discussed is proof IMO. No matter which you follow, your philosophy is tested, hardened and shaped within these walls. So while Red Pill is not it surely does lead you to adopt one.

[–]cj_aubreyMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Alturists do things because it makes them look good, and they are upset at others because they aren't doing what the Altruist feels they should be doing.

Agreed. That kind of Altruism is an epic blue pill covert contract and plays out as such. Things like "If I help people like a nice guy then people will like me" or "if I sacrifice for society then society will take care of me". Some of that big picture stuff might be the foundations of Blue Pill thinking in a lot of men. Covert contracts that they've invested in and don't want to abandon. I think this is what SorcererKing means when he says

Altruism we were all raised on is the core of the Blue Pill and tough as fuck to undo

But the nuance I'm trying to draw here is that when I get rid of that bluepill horseshit by helping anonymously, with no payment of any kind, and without public grandstanding, I get abundance and happiness in return. And that seems rational and valuable to me.

[–]ReddJiveMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I get that. It's a fine line really. You can easily get into a covert contract without realizing it. And I'm not saying you do just mentioning it. Because to me one test would what happens when you no?

Not saying you do just the generic all inclusive you.

I think red pill makes philosophers of us all.

[–]cj_aubreyMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Because to me one test would what happens when you no?

Whats the test? I post the idea here for scrutiny and if I have a covert contract I want to know about it and get rid of it.

[–]ReddJiveMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I was speaking generically. The collective you, or we. I didn't want to sound stuffy and use one. Like one would do this or that.

I agree with you. Just trying to carry a conversation.

[–]ParadoxThatDrivesUsMRP APPROVED-1 points0 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Per Wikipedia, "Rational egoism (also called rational selfishness) is the principle that an action is rational if and only if it maximizes one's self-interest."

I don't understand how this offers any answer to the questions you pose. How does "maximize your self interest" tell me what to do next?

[–]Sword_of_Apollo2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

It doesn't in itself. That's why Ayn Rand developed a whole ethical philosophy, including central values and virtues. See: Introduction to Objectivism

and

Ayn Rand's works, especially Atlas Shrugged and The Virtue of Selfishness.

[–]ParadoxThatDrivesUsMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

I thought the first two paragraphs of OP's post were brilliant - those are exactly the questions I'd like to have answered. But I've read a lot of Ayn Rand and I have to confess that it never did much for me.

I'm ok with maximizing my self-interest. But if there's one thing life has taught me, it's that I have no fucking idea what's in my self-interest. My observation is that most other people don't seem to know either.

[–]SorcererKingMRP SAGE - MRP MODERATOR[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Value selection can be an extremely challenging exercise. Start from the frame of "why would I want to do this?" If the answer has to do with other people instead of yourself, you're probably still in the Blue Maze.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Like you, I'm not a fan of Rand. To me, slogging through her crap = torture.

Unlike you, I've always known what was in my self-interest even though I didn't always act accordingly lol. (Hence the ass-kickings both physical and metaphorical I mentioned the other day.)

My point is that although I'm much too pedestrian to be interested in granular discussions of philosophy I can tell you this: I have several charities that I am interested in that I support with my time and my money. It would maximize my self interest to spend that time on billable hours. However, since in the early years of my life I did maximize my self interest I can now indulge in behaviors that benefit others at the expense of myself.

That's why I say in a practical, not pure way you just have to get them in the right order.

[–]SorcererKingMRP SAGE - MRP MODERATOR[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

There is a strong misconception that one's self interest is always and everywhere hedonic indulgence. That would be Hedonism, or irrational egoism.

Your doing charity work or giving money is not a bad thing, unless it becomes a sacrifice (e.g. the surrender of something you value for something you do not).

For example, giving to a charity that promotes things you value is a perfectly legitimate way to express your value preferences. Helping a neighbor feed his family in an emergency is not a bad thing, unless you starve your own family to do so.

Likewise, helping your neighbor is not necessarily a virtuous thing either. Ironically, Altruism would not declare your donation virtuous unless you helped people you don't care about or did actually starve your family to feed your neighbor. Rational Egoism would simply file it under the category of "optional values" and ascribe no moral significance to it so long as it were not sacrificial.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sounds good. I'll buy it! I'm ill equipped really to debate the topic. I try to stay focused on practicalities. I prefer my philosophy lessons delivered via literature.

[–]SorcererKingMRP SAGE - MRP MODERATOR[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wikipedia is lacking nuance in its definition.

Rational egoism (also called rational selfishness) is the principle that an action is rational moral if and only if it maximizes one's self-interest in a rational way"

I'm not answering the third question for you; anyone who tries does not have your interests in mind. Rather, I'm showing you the philosophical frame required to answer the third question successfully.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

the obstacle is the way

you would naturally apply it to a situation, which helps you see which courses of action are better than others.

think of it like your ability to weigh certain arbitrary decisions as higher than others.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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