I would do it again.

jacktenofhearts · 2016-04-07T19:05:38+00:00

I thought about responding defensively to try and discredit some of the opinions here, since it bothers me too much when internet strangers express ideas that seemingly invalidate my fundamental life decisions.

Instead I decided to go floss.

I guess I'll still probably end up divorced raped or whatever, but at least I'll have great fucking teeth.

Sepean · 2016-04-07T15:26:02+00:00

I completely agree.

In my early 20s I was ripped, cocky, successful. I did well with the girls, had 3 girlfriends at once at one point. It wasn't really for me, I always gravitated towards LTRs and by 25 I was dodging one night stands completely. I wanted to live with a girl I loved. I've known since I was 20 that I wanted children.

There were some years in my marriage that were awful - after the children things got a bit worse, I tried to make them better but by following blue pill advice, and it turned everything to shit. Every course correction I did was based on blue pill advice, and on top the financial crisis wiped me out financially, handed me a stress-related depression and I lost 20lbs of muscle too. It just spiralled out of control until I found the red pill. I sure don't want to live through that again, but there's no reason to.

The first year of being red pill married, it gradually became fun again. I regained my faith that I liked a girl in my life.

These last months, when the dust settled after my wife found MRP and she went RPW, I've come to see marriage as a great thing. I'd definitely do it again, too. This whole nuclear family thing, for me that's the way to roll.

Part of the story is that I started out with a great girl. I was confident, rich and handsome, and I was very picky. At 35 and after 2 kids she still has visible abs, she can do 8 chinups, she's a smart girl making over $100k per year and putting in less than 40 hours, because she wants time for the children too. And she stayed with me through some tough times.

I don't get all this fear of being married, or how the wife will fuck you over. Of course they treat betas bad, but it is a completely different story when you're alpha. Just like alphas have it better on the dating market, they have it better in a marriage.

The whole discussion of marriage vs. LTR, I think it is just a legal and financial decision. I'm anti-government and I couldn't care less if the government thinks I'm officially married or not. I'd be perfectly happy to just get some rings, throw a party, tell friends and family we're married, and leave it at that. But it'd prefer marriage over just being in an LTR. It feels right.

dandar4600 · 2016-04-07T17:29:51+00:00

I also am in the camp that would do it again. Some comments though.

‘Marriage 2.0’ certainly favors women in the event of divorce

You are wrong here. It favors the person that makes less money and takes care of the kids more. That's why I shake my head every time I hear red pill aware men favor a SAHM lifestyle. If she works, your household has more money, she's not desperate for drama and change as she gets plenty of that at work, she isn't itching to get out of the house when you get there as she's actually glad to be home and is less likely to ask and win a full custody in case of a divorce. It would impact her lifestyle and career to a great degree.

True family courts do not hold women to the same standard as men, especially deadbeat moms, but the marriage contract itself doesn't favor women over men.

Agreed, hence the need for serious vetting prior to getting married.

There I fixed it for you. I vetted my wife for almost 5 years before we got married. This can not be understated. As /u/whinemoreplease stated

The average guy is a pathetic chump who does a terrible job at vetting and an ever worse job at leading.

It takes a shock to the system to actually open your eyes and consciously vet your next woman for marriage. Most men are "in love" and willing to play down everything for that Disney dream of happily ever after. I was like that too, luckily it fell apart long before we were ready for marriage.

Another reason why you and I were more likely to would have married her again is that we actually married a girl we dated early in our lives. I won't speak for you but with my wife, there are no previous exes. That's why I vehemently disagree with the notion of marrying in your 30s. That's way too late. Start in your early 20s, get a younger girl, vet her for 3-5 years, marry by mid to late 20s (early 20s for her) and get started on your family while she's still in her prime child rearing years. If you start in your 30s, your wife is very likely to have taken a ride on the cc. By then you are likely to regret putting a ring on that. Also with no prior sexual partners she is more likely to stay married and not seek a divorce.

Finally let's get to the important fact. Raising your kids. Marriage automatically puts you on the birth certificate. Nuclear family is the defacto standard. From there you can make your marriage great or nuke it, but at least your start off where you want to be. Not so as a single guy.

If you vetted your girl properly, both her and the kids will share your last name. You will have full parental rights. Rights to visitation in hospital and in case one of you dies. As a single guy, you're totally dependent on her and the lawyers for these things to happen. She could totally cut you off and you would have to go through courts and lawyers to just put your name on the birth certificate and have a privilege of paying child support. Never mind the right to see your child every couple of weeks. You're way ahead if you're married. She's also less likely to get emotional (I'm pregnant with his child and he won't marry me. That asshole!!!) Doctors, your girl's family and pretty much everyone else will treat you differently if you are married and the father instead of just some boyfriend who may or may not have been the sperm donor.

Realistically, the only downside to the marriage is the fact that if she makes grossly less than you, you are on the hook for alimony. You are also on the hook for equal split of assets. Again not a big deal if both of you make similar amount of money. Child support is just about same shit whether you are single or married. The access to your kids, and rights for a custody are easier on you if you were married and present in their life from the moment they were born.

Again, apart from a small financial hit due to potential but not guaranteed alimony and equal split of assets, what is this marriage risk everyone talks about? If you want to minimize the risk, do not make your wife into a desperate housewife. Otherwise you reap what you sow.

470_2_700_nm · 2016-04-07T15:24:11+00:00

Most people are missing the underlying point -

Would I advise the average guy to get married? Absolutely fucking not. The average guy is a pathetic chump who does a terrible job at vetting and an ever worse job at leading.

The counterpoint - are there points to be made for marriage, especially when it comes to getting ahead in the world? Yes.

All I'm seeing in this "discussion" is people looking for confirmation bias in their specious reasoning.

Imo, the issue here is the idea that marriage doesn't take work and effort. The other issue is people buying into the sunken cost.

Full disclosure - I got married after being involved with the manosphere. The total wedding cost was $1300. 10k was spent travelling the world.

Sepean · 2016-04-07T15:37:49+00:00

I have the utmost respect for u/thefamilyalpha as I devour his blog and appreciate his posts here.

However, I would point out that he is 28 years old and relatively young in his awesome marriage. He will face tremendous obstacles within himself and his wife over the next 10 years that no amount of MRP or TRP can fully prepare you for.

I would contend that most men don't really figure out who they really are before the age of 35 or so, though I would have vigorously argued the opposite earlier in my life. Your womans whole personality and worldview can(and probably will) change as she approaches that same age. At 28 I had the world by the balls with a very similar situation to his and would have said that I'd get married again too. At 37...Having been through some shit, I find I'm more aligned with Cad and RPS on this one.

Having kids is awesome...having a cool chick is awesome...signing a contract with the State that puts a gun to your head over your personal freedom at all times is not awesome.

athridos · 2016-04-07T18:17:46+00:00

I would do it again and am in it for the long haul.

Let's not forget marriage facilitates the optimal environment for childrearing. It also can be rewarding for husband and wife.

The first point doesn't get discussed much here. Kids fare best raised in stable, two-parent (male and female) households. The data demonstrates this unequivocally. Societies have always had marriage like institutions (today, a “piece of paper”) to a) control sexual behavior so that kids are born into marriage-like relationship and b) impose costs so that the parent’s relationship is less likely to dissolve. Those objectives haven’t changed.

Modern laws and arrangements may have put more of those costs on the man. That doesn’t make the institution valueless. It just shifts the burden. A lot of guys are probably going to say the kids are “fine” with other arrangements to avoid that burden. I think that’s bullshit, and that it’s bullshit to abdicate responsibility for providing that environment because of paranoia.

So, to the first point – environment for childrearing – nothing has changed with Marriage 2.0.

To the second – making it rewarding – the burden falls on the husband to lead, make it work and be rewarding. Isn't that why we're all here? To be a masculine man who can do that?

Seems worth it to me.

edit: formatting

massimoliani · 2016-04-07T21:49:19+00:00

What's the main point here? Your marriage is awesome and you'd do it again. Great.

There have been several instances where I was told that I would not get married again. Meaning if I could go back in time, I would not put that rock on my lady’s finger. Each time I have to correct whoever is saying this – because I would. So this post is to set the record straight for good.

Do those people post around here a lot? Admittedly, I don't read every conversation across these pages, so I'm not privy to your chats with everyone else, but I've yet to see anyone say this. And if they do, so fucking what?

Marriage can work? Isn't that the whole point of MRP, to get the most out of your marriage? I'm really grasping here, but the most I'm getting out of your text is, you just want to be heard.

I agree on when you say that marriage gets a shitty wrap because of shitty husbands who take their cues from Everybody loves Raymond or some other sitcom. Would I personally get married again to my wife, knowing what I know now? Probably, but I'm also quite sure I could do all the things I've done without having this particular sword above my head. Not that I consider this on a daily basis, or even monthly. Marriage for me just is.

I believe in marriage. I think it's one of the core ideals that keeps our western world going on strong, and not fall into anarchy and shit. Feminists and their agenda to break the nuclear family would probably drive me married out of pure spite. But the actual concrete benefits of marriage vs common law to me have so far been tax benefits and no need to go and declare my fatherhood at a questioning. Stability and all that jazz, I'm sure can be had even without a formal marriage. Growing up, I never doubted my parents would break up. They married when I was 15, and I'm the youngest, so they were pretty much free to go and do whatever the fuck they wanted.

2016-04-07T14:49:23+00:00

I'm with RPS and cad on this one. When you describe your marriage, I kind of want to frame it, and put it on my wall.

It's just not the experience that I have seen in my life, among friends, parents, peers, and coworkers.

A lot of miserable people, and the fact you have to be 'on' as much as you are to make it work? Kind of the exception that proves the rules.

I wouldn't do it, I don't think most should do it, but we always say, this is a toolbox, and your tools are no better or worse than anyone elses. Spouses parents have been 'engaged' for 30 years, 4 kids, and haven't left. Other than Jesus saying so, I've never personally seen the benefit for the ring and the court order.

But in your case, it works, I just hope readers understand the kind of monumental task of value in behind your marriage, and the obvious examples of you hitting wind at your back when starting also...

Persaeus · 2016-04-07T14:49:00+00:00

Here is the deal... you are happily married despite knowing you signed a contract you do not know the stipulations of... because your woman was able to be led by you.

Good job. Seriously.

When ever "we" say "never get married" or some crap like that, all it means is "the contract of marriage in our society sucks for men".

You can have ALL of the things you LOVE about a Marriage without having a contractual marriage.

What does being MARRIED get you? A break on taxes at the end of the year?

Now imagine you had the same relationship you do with your wife, but the logistics of the finances were different... meaning, you never applied for a marriage license and you did not have a marriage certificate. Are you truly saying that a Masculine Man can't lead a well vetted woman in a family life without a piece of paper??

Because all you are saying is : the piece of paper that I am willing to sign made the difference.

Is that your message?

BluepillProfessor · 2016-04-08T18:09:30+00:00

I have read through the 400+ comments which sets a new record for MRP.

We don't have to agree to generate exceptional discussion. In fact, if we all agreed there would be no discussion! Gratz to TFA on lancing this boil.

This thread should be on the wiki in order to address this issue. Does MRP support marriage? Answer: Generally not because it is so unfair to men but....some highly respected men disagree so...It depends! We are not an echo chamber and I think that is awesome.

2016-04-08T07:17:50+00:00

Everyone is so down on marriage. There's lots of value in TRP, but there are a lot of extremists here too.

Marriage is good when husband and wife go into it with realistic wants and expectations - it is simpler than everyone makes it out to be.

There are many risks for a man who gets married. Marriage's sole worthwhile purpose is the founding of a strong happy family.

If you don't want kids, don't get married.

If you cannot afford to feed, clothe, house and educate kids, don't get married.

If you have any doubts about either of your fertility, get it checked out before the wedding.

If your prospective wife is not ready for children, do not get married until she changes her mind. Once you get married, get your wife pregnant asap (our first was born 10 months after the wedding).

Related to this is age - if your prospective wife is over 30, think long and hard before pulling the trigger.

Sex is a relatively small part of a happy marriage, but still a very important one. If sex is not mutually pleasurable and mutually orgasmic before the marriage, walk away.

Laughter is also an important part of marriage. There are going to be tough times, sickness, uncertainty and fear. If you don't find occasion to see the funny side of life together on a daily basis - don't get married.

If your prospective wife wants to spend more than 3 months of your combined household income on the wedding, walk away - you are dealing with a delusional narcissist. A good wife will already be thinking ahead, wanting to build and protect your family finances. If the father of the bride is willing to foot the bill you can give some leeway here.

Heterosexual women want to look up to their man, particularly in the areas of education, intelligence and finances; if you as a man are not starting from a position of relative superiority in at least 2 of these 3 areas, you are making a suboptimal match. The key word here is relative: you don't need to be a Rhodes scholar with a 150 IQ and $10mm liquid worth. just have a bit more in the tank than your woman does.

Before and after marriage - keep yourself physically fit, pay attention to your personal hygiene and basic grooming - if you don't manifest self-respect, you can't expect it from others.

This is all simple basic advice that any man with a non-delusional perspective on life can figure out for himself. 21st century mass culture muddies the waters by constantly telling us all that consumerism is the royal road to happiness. Bullshit.

Be real with yourself, be real with your woman, and be real with your kids. A close, happy, loving family is a rare and wonderful thing.

2016-04-08T16:40:59+00:00

I've finally read through all these comments. You certainly engendered debate which is good. Obviously guys can do whatever they want but lots of the arguments seem to me like they just want a guarantee that nothing will go awry. I invest in stocks because I know that over the long term they'll make me money even though there's a possibility I might get stuck with one like worldcom. I never feared the spectre of "divorce rape" never gave it a thought and not because I'm without assets. I sure wouldn't want a woman that would let me knock her up without being married. Every man has to do what's best for himself. Only guarantee I know of is we will all die. The rest is up in the air.

dandar4600 · 2016-04-07T14:28:06+00:00

Shit post with dangerous advice

You completely ignored that marriage gives all power to women regarding YOUR children. Men have no legal rights to speak of where children concerned.

The financial implications are also enormous and I dont need to pour more gas on this fire...its been said already.

It doesnt matter if you want kids. It doesnt matter if you have game. It doesn't matter if your smv is 11.

You still took unlimited risk for....nothing.

Now, I am married and so are you. But....I am not a hamster rationiilizing a terrible deal for men. I am not a bucket crab pulling a ruse on younger men hoping they follow my stupid path so I feel better.

redpillschool · 2016-04-07T14:29:53+00:00

There seems to be this notion that ‘RedPill’ men don’t get married. Who the fuck said we were ‘redpill’ men? Choosing the ‘RedPill’ means choosing the harsh truth of reality over the comfort of the lie. Did Neo become a ‘RedPill’ when he chose the truth? Fuck no – he just embraced the reality of who he was and what he was capable of. Choosing the truth means choosing to embrace your masculine nature over remaining what you have been told to be.

The red pill simply being the term for accepting reality for what it is, it's true, red pill men don't do anything in particular.

However, handing a loaded gun to a woman and asking her to point it at you is typically something most men don't do when they realize that's what marriage is.

‘Marriage 2.0’ certainly favors women in the event of divorce, but marriage itself favors the man.

I disagree in every respect. Marriage 2.0 invokes a threatpoint, which gives the woman unilateral control over nuking a marriage with cash prizes for her while simultaneously asking her to respect the man she has this control over. Learning to master game in spite of this is a feat, and certainly an honorable notion for those who took the vows before recognizing what a bad deal it is.

But make no mistake, honor is a male trait, and women have no such understanding or desire. She will nuke the marriage well before it gets as hard for her as it got for you to get to this point. She will never operate with honor. Your sacrifices to keep the marriage together will never be recognized.

It's nice that you want to follow through on your vows, even in light of the fact that this will always be a one-sided agreement. But I think it's misleading to suggest that it's an optimal strategy for somebody knowing what you know now.

I see these weak husbands and sad wives – I’m in the ‘married man’ category so they are in a way making me look bad – fuck that.

I agree that weak men are a problem onto themselves. Marriage 2.0 made it easier for women to leave weak men once married. But weak men don't make marriage the bad deal, women will leave them married or not. Marriage is the bad deal irrespective of this.

Sepean · 2016-04-07T15:27:30+00:00

Wow. Talk about getting all the way down to the nitty gritty.

I'm with RPS, Cad and STP on this one too. And Arch has it right - in the final analysis, it's a gamble, and we're all just playing a series of hands, we're all just doing a set of bluffs and calls, all just trying to get the best hands we can.

Here's the bottom line, at least to me. Most of the men here not only improved themselves and laid down the law in their own lives and those of their marriages. What also happened was that the women these men are married to weren't stupid -- they realized that these men who started improving were the best men these women were ever going to get. These women realized that if they didnt' do something to avoid divorce, these men would end up either cheating on or divorcing them. These women realized they had a lot to lose; and decided that remaining together was more advantageous to them than taking a chance on what they could lose.

In my own marriage as an example: I went from dread level 0 to dread level 11 in less than 24 hours (something I would NOT recommend). I was really, really lucky. My wife realized she was about to lose a lot in money, status, social standing, and help with parenting two young kids. She started changing and adjusting to my changes. It would not have worked, and we would not have stayed together, had she been unable or unwilling to adjust. I'm pretty sure she stayed because she did the hard risk-benefit analysis, and concluded the benefits of staying outweighed the unknowns of leaving.

I realized I would lose either way if I didn't do something. It's fucking hard work too -- and here's the thing -- for most men, and most women, and most marriages, that hard work isnt' worth it. It's not worth it because most women aren't worth it; and the enormous risks compared to the paltry benefits make the work not worth it.

At the end of the day, keeping the marriage going today, when a woman has few incentives to stay and every incentive to detonate a thermonuclear weapon in the marriage, is partially about luck, and partially about being valuable enough. At the end of the day, marriages stay together because the risks of ending it and the unknowns are worse than the risks of remaining together.

I wouldn't do it again -- and I wouldn't because the benefits aren't worth the risks. How many men would voluntarily go to the casino Arch describes? HOw many men would play that game, knowing the house always wins in the end and knowing that he's going to have to work his ass off for the rest of his life for the privilege of paying the house?

I wouldn't.

IASGame · 2016-04-07T16:41:23+00:00

I think this thread is relevant. Features Archwinger's reply.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asktrp/comments/3h7tfs/married_red_pill_men_do_you_regret_it/

Obviously some people don't regret it because their marriage is awesome.

I personally don't regret it because I don't regret stuff, there is no point about it. If I knew then what I knew now I wouldn't have married, which is slightly different.

Archwinger · 2016-04-07T15:09:05+00:00

You can sit in a casino all day watching a dealer deal cards at a blackjack table. You can watch how she shuffles. You can count cards. You can do everything in your power to make sure that when you finally sit at that table and put some money down, you've maximized your chance of winning.

She's still the dealer. And you're still going to spend a lot of hands staring at your 10 and 6 and her face-up king and wonder if you'll ever get back all the money you've sunk into this endeavor.

Yes, some individuals might win and come out ahead. But overall, the house always wins.

sexyshoulderdevil · 2016-04-07T19:13:23+00:00

[permanently deleted]

2016-04-08T00:18:59+00:00

Love it! You are the epitome of sexy.

2016-04-09T14:59:19+00:00

Good for you! If you're proud of your choices and can manage the relationship on your terms, then go for it.

If the dream of your youth was fucking one woman who's pushed kids through her vag, then dream on you dreamer!

I'm married, and would never marry again. I don't think that makes me fucked up. I think (for me personally) I could optimize my life without a marriage contract.

And by optimize, I mean having the freedom I desire and getting the sex that I want from the women I want. It's what I value.

I'm glad to see a differing viewpoint like yours here. It's often too much of a knee jerk reaction. You've put thought into what you're after and sounds like you're on a path to manage yourself to get there.

Sadbeary · 2016-04-09T15:14:45+00:00

I have considered this question often. If I didn't take the (nearly ruinous) path I chose I would never have met my kids. I'd endure hell for them and it has felt like it at times. I'd do it all again; I'd do it better though.

BluepillProfessor · 2016-04-07T20:27:52+00:00

On my pad with limited internet but had to respond. Tfa presents a very non red pill view. The red pill is about understanding how the gender dynamics have changed against men. It is not weak mens fault that glorious feminism has failed. Of course the solution is for men to be strong but the cause of weak men is an entire generation of men raised by women, not just because all of us aren't as in charge as tfa. Tfa has never endured a deadbedroom and probably wont. He has never had his children alienated. He has never been in a marriage to ayougogirl using sexual denial. He has not had his wife weaponize sex and thinks that a big strong he man can change every wife, shape of there container and all that.

Except this is effect not cause. The cause is women having all.power in the courts, I. Child custody, in the culture in the schools. I reject that it is all mens fault.

Like the overwhelming majority on mrp I reject the idea that marriage is a good deal for men that should be encouraged. Of course staying married and avoiding divorce rape is good but marriage is not.

The only power men have is the power to walk with the clothes on our back with our money, homes and children safely with the ex wife.

Tfa is wrong encouraging men to get married, in painting this Pollyanna vision, and in blaming men for this disaster.

PLaTinuM_HaZe · 2016-04-07T20:28:30+00:00

Omfg!!! This dude just summed up my feelings about MRP better than I ever could!

red-pill-man · 2016-04-09T16:00:46+00:00

Hi. Red-Pill-Man here. 54, in 31 year LTR, no papers OR rings. Two kids in 20's, both well adjusted and are out on their own. One is in a good IT career and the other is working in the medical field going towards a degree with a great future. Relationship with "wife" is as good as ever. Not perfect, but good. There goes TFA's assertion that LTR's without a ring NEVER WORK.

Towards the topic at hand: Would I do it again? Not sure. What I do find amazing though is that TFA at the wise ole age of 28 thinks he has it all figured out. Come back here and talk about this when you're 48, son.

If I didn't know any better I'd swear TFA was leading a blue pill false flag here.

2016-04-08T10:04:28+00:00

[deleted]

What is this?

IASGame · 2016-04-07T16:05:00+00:00

Genuine question, TFA: if you didn't propose and get married, but still had kids with her and were living with her, what would you lose from not being married?

In other words - what did you actually get as a positive from being married? I can easily see what your wife gets from being married. And possibly you only got to keep her because you married her, but that is a different point (that is assuming that some women, no matter how alpha you are, will eventually reach a point where they will leave you if you don't get married, and that your wife happens to be one of those).

I suspect you would only get very minor benefits which do not make up for the major potential downsides. The benefits I can think of are some tax benefits, automatic inheritance laws so you don't need to draft wills or whatever, automatic recognition of kids as yours (in fact, the auto-recognition of kids as your own can be a tremendous downside if you had been cuckolded).

I think your position on marriage is either not being clear, or you are having trouble looking beyond your own reality.

Rollo's take on this (who is happily married) is more enlightening than what you are presenting in the top post at least.

thechariot83 · 2016-04-08T09:57:30+00:00

How come you think that marriage itself favors the man?

I'm in a 3 year LTR and we have a 6 month old girl. I'm very happy with my situation. Love the tribe/family and I love being the leader of it. Of course my girl wants to eventually get married, but I look at marriage and see 0 incentives for the groom. Any thoughts?