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Read the entire article Here: http://thefamilyalpha.com/2016/01/20/pc-parenting-is-straight-garbage/

This post has been in the works for a few weeks now. The reason for this lengthy ‘write time’ is I wasn’t exactly sure how I would be able to cover the concept of ‘Politically Correct’ parenting without breaking it into a ‘series’ of sorts. I’m not a fan of series, I write about a certain topic or topics a day, and then I am off to ponder another aspect of masculinity. To write at length for multiple days on a single topic just isn’t my style. So, I had to find a way to take all of what PC parenting is and strip it down to my specific gripes and what I think parents should be doing in regards to rearing their children. I am not going to tell you how to raise your child, as a married father of two I am doing my best and giving my all, but I don’t know if my way is the ‘right’ way, I just know it’s the best way that I believe they should be raised. With that said, there may not be a ‘right’ way, but there definitely is a wrong way. Raising your children under the notion that they should be groomed for blending in with society, not making waves, and tolerating everything – thus believing in nothing is not how kids should be raised.

I have a 6 year old boy and 3 year old girl, so that is where I am coming from. For those who are ready to blast me for even suggesting parents could be doing it wrong, fire away – you’re retarded if you think there isn’t something wrong with raising a kid ‘gender neutral’.

I have had people tell me that I should enroll my daughter in football and baseball to keep her ‘well rounded’, I’m sure these people will also be sending me space camp, math prodigy, and science summer camp pamphlets for her as she gets older. My daughter loves glitter, her dolls, and all things make-up, purse, and jewelry. She is enrolled in dance/ballet and loves her tutu.

Why is that a fucking problem?

Some feminists and ‘Pro Gender-Neutral’ parents have a major issue with girls being girls. As if a female, acting in accordance with her female biology is somehow selling out the entire sex and ruining the work that was put in from millions of women before her time. These feminazis tell girls to not allow ‘men’ to dictate what clothes, degrees, and jobs they should have and instead, take it upon themselves to tell the girls what clothes, degrees, and jobs they should have.

It makes no fucking sense that I should make my daughter do and play masculine activities for the sake of ‘equality’. That isn’t raising her in accordance with her wishes, which would just be me pushing the female imperative even further.

Here’s an idea, let your kid choose. Let your girl tell you if she is in to science or glitter and support her either way. Same thing with boys, my son is into sports – if he was into the clarinet I’d support that too. But there is no way in hell I’d even consider forcing him into dance in an attempt to get him to understand that it’s okay to be feminine. I will watch him and listen to him as he grows, he’ll tell me what he is into and I will ensure he puts maximum effort into that thing. But I will not use him for my personal agendas.

Read the entire article at The Family Alpha: http://thefamilyalpha.com/2016/01/20/pc-parenting-is-straight-garbage/

Acta Non Verba, Hunter


[–][deleted] 23 points24 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

There is a difference between having a gender neutral approach to a child and pushing a child toward a different or more neutral gender role to which they are not predisposed.
 
When my son was two, he liked to play with his sister's Barbie dolls like his older sister. IDGAF. Within a few months, with no prompting or guidance from me, his play with those dolls changed. Instead of tea party, he'd pick up a Barbie, hand one to me, and say, "Wanna fight?" I didn't know he even knew the word - must've picked it up at school. No enforcement of masculine or neutral roles required.
 
When my daughter dressed up like Elsa, he wanted to dress like Anna. IDGAF. Now, when my daughter dresses like Elsa, he dresses like Spider-Man. No prompting from me. No correction when he put on the dress. He doesn't want to wear the dress now because he identifies with male characters and role models.
 
Same goes for my daughter. She loves to watch Batman shows. IDGAF. A few months into her love of Batman, she tells me that she wants a Batgirl watch, wants to be Batgirl, and wants to marry Batman.
 
My five year old daughter loves to join me in the gym when I'm lifting, imitates the moves, and loves push-ups. IDGAF. With no prompting from me or my wife, she says that she wants to be strong so she can be a ballerina on Tuesdays and Thursdays and Batgirl on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. (Saturday and Sunday are home days.)

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

My home is very similar. Both kids do their thing and I support that. As they've grown they drifted towards their gender's interests.

It's funny you brought up exercise - My daughter lifts with me too, she has her little kettlebells and foam barbell. My son, the kid is obsessed with sports and doing pushups. He is also infatuated with growing his own beard.

They will follow our example, not our advice

[–]alpha_n3rd 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

same here; my son was into wearing my girls dresses for a while but he never acted like a girl while he was wearing one. he's naturally masculine and curious. he's going to slay pussy someday, I can already tell. My daughter is really smart and loves STEM and I think that's great. I've never pushed her in that direction although some of it probably rubbed off me. But she also loves her pink princess shit. Whatever. All kids are like that.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

AKALT

Absolutely. A girl can like science at 5, art at 11, engineering at 15, and writing at 18 and should never at any point feel she must pursue a certain path or the fate of her sex is forever doomed.

Fuck feminazis, let whomever do whatever so long as they own their shit.

You want to pursue women studies as a dude, go for it but don't fucking lose your masculine nature as a man.

[–]mrpCamper 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

A girl can like science at 5, art at 11, engineering at 15, and writing at 18

This is a great point in general. I HATE when people try to say that little Timmy is going to be a great engineer because he loves legos at age 4. This kid is going to love so many different things over the next 14 years. Let him explore and enjoy all of them without the pressure of thinking whatever he shows interest in is his calling.

[–]mrpCamper 2 points3 points  (21 children) | Copy Link

Nice write up Hunter. While I agree with you, there are some issues that creep up into the folds of this theory that I am struggling with when putting things into practice. Basically, I am asking myself this question all the time "Where is the line between encouraging and forcing?"

First of all, I have 4 girls and no boys but I will start with questions about boys. I have nephews and close neighbor boys.

When you let a boy be himself, you may have to deal with "what if he isn't a more masculine boy?" Are you letting him be himself by being more feminine. I'm not talking about wearing makeup and a dress necessarily. What if you're boy isn't into sports but you recognize the kid is a really good athlete? Where is the line between encouraging and forcing? Now, this does fuck with PC/gender norms issues because it is PC to let boys be more feminine.

For either gender, what about musical instruments? Many parents consider playing a musical instrument to be something every child should do. Maybe you think they should play an instrument but the 10 year old kid just doesn't want to. Or worse is willing to and says so. Seems to like it but doesn't practice it often enough? Do you follow their natural inclination to be lazy about it? This applies for any example where you "believe" you are doing something they'll appreciate later on in life and be glad you did it for them. Where is the line between encouraging and forcing?

What if your kid is always saying, I'm not good at math. But has an "A" in regular math and has to choose between doing regular again next year or taking honors math. She's a girl. You see her falling into "boys do math, I want to do art". Where is the line between encouraging and forcing?

Personally, I feel I am doing well navigating this but part of doing well is reflecting and seeing what others are doing better. I think the key to some things is exposure. Your kid will do anything "with you". So, have a catch if you want to encourage sports. Or build a rocket if you want to encourage STEM interest. If you are doing it from a perspective of trying to make that kid the best version of himself he can be then do it. But be careful not to do it for the wrong reasons.

[–]MRPguy 2 points3 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

What if you're boy isn't into sports but you recognize the kid is a really good athlete? Where is the line between encouraging and forcing?

Maybe he isn't into sports that all the other kids are into. Maybe he simply isn't into team sports (and has no idea that individual sports exist). Maybe he can golf. Maybe he can bowl. There is more to sports that football and basketball. Hand-eye coordination and the ability to control oneself through several planes of motion, as well as separating the upper body from the lower body, are attributes of an athlete. So in this case I would introduce him to some new sports, point out that he is really good, and then let him decide for himself.

What if your kid is always saying, I'm not good at math. But has an "A" in regular math and has to choose between doing regular again next year or taking honors math. She's a girl. You see her falling into "boys do math, I want to do art". Where is the line between encouraging and forcing?

Give her examples, show her examples, of girls that do math. Let her know through words and deeds that she is really good at it and very talented. Then let her decide.

As parents we fail if we don't help our children to understand where their talents are. Some take more fostering than others, but if they understand what they are good at and still choose other things, that is fine and wonderful.

Another excellent point would be to let our children see us trying new things and enjoying the experience whether we are successful or not. That's how life should be led.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

On that line sports aren't the only avenue, look at all of the obstacle course races out there or hunting, machete throwing, rock climbing, etc.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

machete throwing

That's a thing?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Machete Don't Throw, Machete Appear

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

We could make it a thing. Last of the Mohicans style

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Have thrown knives while drunk. Not recommended. They bounce back at you.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

first practice while sober. sheesh

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

So - ber? I'm unfamiliar with that word.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

In Canada, patient operates surgeon.

In Canada Patient helps vent Pulmnonologist ...

[–]mrpCamper 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

As parents we fail if we don't help our children to understand where their talents are. Some take more fostering than others, but if they understand what they are good at and still choose other things, that is fine and wonderful.

True!

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I hated sports as a kid, loved computers. Did great in math, great painter, good programmer, horrible physique, and no coordination.

I'm now a navy vet, lifts weights, plays squash, still loves computers, and supposedly acts like 'a man'. I even drink whiskey and can grow a mean handlebar mustache in the winter. Don't feel any manlier now than I did then.

Just let him do something, but ensure he does it well, and not half assed.

thats what men do, having to fuck shit up is a small part of a larger piece of manhood

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

These are solid questions man.

I'll try to generalize them a bit so they application can be put into practice in other areas as well as the specifics you provided.

Kids will follow your example over your advice. Telling your son to apply his skills to an athletic endeavor only works if you are doing so as well.

Having your daughter want to go into art even though she loves math forces you to show her through your own example that you need to follow your passion over the crowd.

Do you follow your passion?

As for musical instruments and practice, it comes down to everything else they do. Do they practice singing, writing, reading, playing a sport, lifting - putting in the necessary time to become great at something comes from discipline and discipline comes from directed actions that go against the immediate desire.

I've taught my kids that they have to earn their relaxation. We only watch TV if it is raining or there is a family movie and it's night time. If it is raining and my son runs out and says, "Dad, can we watch 'whatever'???" I will ask him if he has earned it. Has he done his workouts, practiced his writing, read anything, etc?

Have them practice, bring them to concerts where they can see 'the masters' perform their craft. Facilitate their development through experience and clear goals.

Don't just practice an hour a night, try to memorize and play a certain piece, or see if you can hold a certain note for x amount of time.

In regards to masculinity, I'm lucky as my boy is very sports and athletic oriented, but at the same time he is more sensitive than his sister.

Recently he's been having a complex because he is the shortest kid and the other day said, "I'm a loser". I brought him for a ride as I realized I had not been making enough 'Father & Son' time with him. We drove around and I brought up how I was the smallest ki on my football team and it blew his mind.

I then explained that I compensated by outworking the bigger guys and that even though I would come home bruised and tired, I never came home with the thought of I could have done more I always left it on the field.

Progress was made, we played at a basketball court, life is good. At the same time I force him to understand his role in the family and society. He has to help me with the trash, when I take stuff apart he has to help me put it back together (side note: my daughter is always the first to ask me for help and volunteer to help and I always let her) it isn't just a boy thing, but my son must know that I'm looking to him when it comes to certain jobs.

He helped me build a fire pit, work on the car, and move my entire gym he knows he has to do 'boy' stuff.

I try my best to be my genuine self with the family. At times I want to remain quiet but I'll speak because I want my kids to know my line of thought. It is important for our offspring to see who we are and why we operate the way we do.

They may not understand masculine & feminine, but through our actions my kids know how men and women should interact.

Again, they're always watching. They will follow the example you set over the words you say.

[–]mrpCamper 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Don't just practice an hour a night, try to memorize and play a certain piece, or see if you can hold a certain note for x amount of time.

I think this is good advice. I've tried to convey this poorly. I'll give some more concrete advice.

become great at something comes from discipline and discipline comes from directed actions that go against the immediate desire.

Great quote. i'll have to reword it a bit for the audience though. :)

Oh and my youngest daughter helped me build my fire pit this summer.

I love the shortest kid on the football team bit. I was too and it pretty much shaped the course of my life. When you have to be meaner, tougher, pay more attention to your coach's instructions and try harder than everyone else it changes you. First, it's just to keep up. Then you pass them all.

Thanks again.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No kids here... but I remember my child hood ( I played with dolls and then played with cars and tried to play the piano but sucked and didn't practice, wasn't into sports but liked wrestling)... oh and I raised two nephews.

I think you are raising two or three questions in here.

1) encouraging of gender "norming" - here I do not mean neutral, just boy and girl roles as seen in society and "expected" by a given parent : kids will do what they see as "cool" and expected at a certain age. The idea from the way I understand it, is to encourage them by showing through your own deeds and the environment you allow them to see, the behavior you would like to witness. Notice I did not say "the activities". I have a nephew who is a beautiful boy... I mean this kid is pretty. He did sambo from the time he was about 6. He also took ballroom dancing and competed locally as a teenager. He sucked at music. No problem, he still was taught to understand what he is hearing ( notes etc) and the instruments used so he can sound like he knows what the fuck he is saying if the topic comes up. I guess my point is, show them what you approve of, but do not shove it down their throat. Encourage interests from a gendered perspective -- Male Ballet dancers are strong ass mofo's.

2) what if your kid is not into something but you think he or she would be good at it? : here find out what it is they do not like about it. I hated soccer as a kid ( raised in Europe where not liking soccer was like not liking football in Texas) . Looking back on it now, I hated it because the kids I had around to play with were the runner types, a few years older, did not have a sense of team spirit and I hated being made fun of because short legs. So some way or another I got into wrestling, and loved it. Still a sport, still masculine, still has a team aspect to it. Point being, find out the core reason, fix it or help them fix it.

  • since I am not a dad, and would like input if I am wrong about what I am saying, lay it on me.

[–]Sepean 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Your kids have no understanding of the world, no capability for long term planning and very little self discipline. You have to be those things for them. Make them eat proper food, get to bed on time, do their home work, do sports, develop a masculine/feminine identity, learn how to function socially, and all sorts of other stuff. That is on us, as parents.

We have to strike a balance between developing the qualities we think are important for them, what their interests are, and what their strengths and weaknesses.

I'm not going to be bothered with trying to figure out where the line between encouraging and enforcing is. I force eating and sleeping habits on my kids. I force my eldest who is in school to get up and be on time every morning. I also force them to do sports on the days where they'd rather stay home. I'm not a particularly strict parent, but I'm consistent. And it shows. Our kids find it very easy to get going, do something, and focus for an entire lesson where so many kids their age get distracted or bored. We've seen so many of their friends try to join them in their sports activities, but they get so whiny or misbehaved that they only come once or a few times before stopping. Those kids are missing out on potentially fun and rewarding activities because their parents chickened out, not to mention the long term effects. Poor athletic performance, whiny behavior, little ability to delay gratification, and probably that will also affect their academic efforts and social status; that's going to hurt them later.

My son competes in judo, and he did so well that he got moved up a class to fight older boys. Last tournament he was 6 and faced a much larger 9 year old, and my son hit his head getting thrown and cried for 40 minutes. Even though he was crying he still fought his next two matches, and the judge paused one to ask if he really wanted to continue. He did, he kept his cool and listened to his coach's instruction and won one of them against an 8 year old, and went home with a bronze medal.

I was a weak, skinny kid who got picked on a lot. My parents failed me by not making me do sports, not giving me any backbone, and not giving me any self discipline. I figured most of it out in my teens and began lifting, doing muai thai and eventually joining the army, but I'm still struggling with that tendency for escapism and procrastinantion that a laissez faire upbringing instills in you.

There's no way I'm doing that to my kids. Don't be afraid to guide your kids on the path to becoming awesome people.

[–]mrpCamper 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

We have to strike a balance between developing the qualities we think are important for them, what their interests are, and what their strengths and weaknesses.

I agree it's a balance but sometimes with some kids it's very hard to determine whether they don't like it or are being lazy and need to be pushed. Not all kids. I have four and they're all different.

I'm not going to be bothered with trying to figure out where the line between encouraging and enforcing is. I force eating and sleeping habits on my kids. I force my eldest who is in school to get up and be on time every morning. I also force them to do sports on the days where they'd rather stay home.

Yes, this is a given for me. There is certainly a level of standards that need to be achieved in order to not be in trouble and lose privileges. brush teeth, do your homework, study for tests and an expectation that they will either get good grades or ask us for help. They basically need to own their shit. Their window of their shit is small but ever expanding.

It's probably your consistency that helped your kid in the judo matches for sure.

[–]Sepean 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

When does it matter if they don't like it or are just being lazy? Doing homework? Going to bed on time? Eating healthy? Being on time? Doing sports? Being polite? Standing up for yourself?

A lot of those things I bet that most parents would just enforce no matter what their kids thought about it. Others, they'd not dare to push their kids in the right direction to help them form solid habits.

Why this seemingly arbitrary distinction? It seems to be the same thing as the mainstream advice for men to "be themselves" or whatever, compared to the RP advice where we take a clear and informed stance on what traits get people what they want and then we tell them to man up and do that.

[–]mrpCamper 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agreed that doing homework and being polite etc. is necessary and they must do it. Must be forced if necessary but the question is with less important non mandatory items that are "enriching" and in some cases perhaps bucking gender norm situations. My example was with practicing an instrument. But the same can be with anything.

The point is that some issues (Homework, being polite) are black and white while others are grey. The grey areas are where I see some issues between pushing and encouraging.

i have 4 kids the 7 year old FAR LESS GREY. The 13 year old, yeah, it's murky.

[–]tim_rp 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

"Where is the line between encouraging and forcing?"

I think the answer to this is staring you in the face. And that's that there is no line. Like most aspects of parenting, it's a wide, grey band that shifts all the time depending on your parenting goals, your child's interests and common sense.

My 6 y/o son loves playing sports but, much like his dad, doesn't display a natural aptitude. He's obsessed with Lego, characters, fantasy and pretending (I'll be Batman, you be a Ninja Turtle), TV/movies and computer games. He's also recently taken to reading.

My parenting goals are to encourage his interests, his academic, physical and social development. My vision for that is that he performs at or above average at school, is physically active, socially confident and has the tools in place to discover his interests.

I use his interests to align with my parenting goals. For example, I don't want him to invest much time in time sinks like computer games, so I use those as a reward for performance. I recognise that reading is central to academic development so I've recently struck a "stay up later" deal with him where he can read to himself for half an hour before bedtime. And I make sure there are plenty of books in the house which align with his interests so he has the scope to explore himself.

To further encourage his love of sport I try to do lots of outdoor activities with him. We recently bought one of those tennis-ball-tied-to-a-pole toys and we tend to play it every night. Sometimes he's into it, sometimes he's not. I don't push too hard, but try to reinforce the habit of doing stuff outside as well as inside.

I think the key is to not turn activities into chores. (Side note: I also work to turn chores into activities.) You can do this by focusing on the mutually desired outcome between you and your child and rewarding performance appropriately.

[–]mrpCamper 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

My parenting goals are to encourage his interests, his academic, physical and social development. My vision for that is that he performs at or above average at school, is physically active, socially confident and has the tools in place to discover his interests.

Sounds like a good goal.

I think the key is to not turn activities into chores.

Good point. I'll ruminate on this one a bit. thanks.

[–]adamalan 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I am asking myself this question all the time "Where is the line between encouraging and forcing?"

When it comes to something like sports or band or whatever, sure. But when it comes to gender roles we're into the realm of things like eating your vegies and not stealing; but worse.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

This is one of my favorite topics. Very glad that you posted this. There are so many people who produce children and then don't bother parenting them so the encouragement you provide is very much needed. I think especially so to men who may be having trouble in other areas of their lives.

The key is to expose your children to as many enriching experiences as you can and watch which ones THEY choose as this helps them flourish into what they are meant to be.

I find all four of my children to be things of great beauty. By this I mean that at times I was awestruck to witness their development and to participate in their journey to adulthood. All four of my children participated in sports and arts related activities and they all four developed interests which surprised me.

My super athlete son also really liked doing pottery and painting with my wife.(And by the way, we never pushed him to compete at the college, or any level, that all came from him!)

My youngest daughter, who from an early age could beat the rest of us at chess, announced one day that she wanted to be a cheerleader. My wife and I dutifully went to A LOT of high school football and basketball games to watch her cheer. Nobody was more surprised than us.

We tried to focus always on fostering in our children a sense of personal responsibilty, love of learning, and gratitude for their good fortune. This is accomplished through accountability for one's actions, encouraging intellectual inquiry, and participation in volunteer work.

In my experience, the gender issues you address were evident more for my daughters than my sons. I agree that some behaviors are innate in females. However, I told my daughters as often as I told my sons "crying is not a problem solving skill."

If you are the father of a daughter do whatever you can to develop the type of relationship with her that is necessary so that she can talk with you about anything. They will really, really need you in middle and high school.

Tell me to fuck off if you must, but I believe that there are many fathers, at least partially to blame, for the girls who turn themselves into monsters with the help of Instagram, Facebook, and Snapchat.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

As has come to be expected, your response is spot on. To the point where I believe your writing on the subject has surpassed mine as you are able to touch on levels I have yet to reach.

My kids are 6 & 3 years old, a majority of Father's on here are dealing with older kids and reading your responses would benefit them immensely.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks man. You've got so many "ages & stages" to look forward to with them. Your kids are fortunate to have a thinking man for a father.

[–]qwertyuiop111222 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

This seems relevant:

In experiments, male adolescent monkeys also prefer to play with wheeled vehicles while the females prefer dolls — and their societies say nothing on the matter.

and

"boys with more male-typical digit ratios showed greater visual interest in a ball compared to a doll...At just 3 months old, the newborn boys already fixed their eyes on the toys associated with their gender"

Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/24/gender-toys-children-toy-preferences-hormones_n_1827727.html

For those more scientifically inclined:

Sex differences in rhesus monkey toy preferences parallel those of children...Male monkeys, like boys, showed consistent and strong preferences for wheeled toys, while female monkeys, like girls, showed greater variability in preferences. Thus, the magnitude of preference for wheeled over plush toys differed significantly between males and females. The similarities to human findings demonstrate that such preferences can develop without explicit gendered socialization.

(emphasis added)

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/

I can dig out more studies if you'd like that, but IMO this is considered fairly common knowledge among biologists and anthropologists. If you have kids, treat boys like boys, and girls like girls, unless you see evidence that they have different preferences. If so, go with that.

[–]qwertyuiop111222 4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Oh, pls - someone post this to TIL.

(waits, and gets popcorn out)

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This was an excellent post and your comment on it made me laugh pretty hard.

It's like when you tell a great joke and nobody laughs, you're sitting there thinking (or saying), "Come on people, that was GOLD!!!"

[–]qwertyuiop111222 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

^ SOMEONE GIVE THIS MAN SOME GOLD!

:)

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It was on the Reddit front page a while back.

[–]qwertyuiop111222 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Darn it, then I missed the fun!

[–]MRPCowboy3 points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Here’s an idea, let your kid choose. Let your girl tell you if she is in to science or glitter and support her either way. Same thing with boys, my son is into sports – if he was into the clarinet I’d support that too.

You can really take that way, way too far. Gender roles are not genetic. Kids don't know things, your job is to provide them with environment and stimulation. You work to expose them to new experiences and challenge them to grow. Sometimes they don't know until they've tried, sometimes they make decisions that just mirror your approval not innate or organic desires of their own. Why science OR glitter and not science AND glitter? Sports AND clarinet? Don't be ADHD but kids thrive with challenge. Otherwise they turn into entitled twats.

Example: It makes me so damn mad that balsa wood airplanes are now painted to look so extremely like boy's only toys. All I had to do was spray paint it pink and my girls love building and flying planes.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree and hope all the men reading here understand it is implied that we are still the parents and make the call.

[–]Aechzen 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

If your son was into clarinet, teach him about Benny Goodman. That dude was awesome.

[–]NiftyDolphin 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'll be honest and say that I feel shame that my daughter has historically displayed better trigger-discipline than my son.

Kids are little learning machines. I let them get into whatever they want as long as they are having fun.

About the only time I step in is when one of my wife's social circle tries to interdict my son. Most of them only have girls, so they're not used to the behaviors of a little boy.

My wife, raised in a matriarchal household and surrounded by women, used to be freaked out, but now steps in to defend her own, "No, that's normal. Just take the matches away. That never ends well."

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

I agree with this.

As a father of 2, a boy and girl, I can't honestly think of a time when I pushed or persuaded him one way or another. But I always supported him. He wanted to buy Frozen dolls and play with make up. Why? Because I was gone on a deployment and his mother was the only model he was around. Now that I'm here, again, through no persuasion, he started liking Star Wars, the hulk, and wanting to constantly fight me hand to hand. Why? Actually, I don't really know. I am not raising my kids gender neutral. He has a penis, therefore, he is male. But his life is his, and I'm not going to strip away his fun just because I think it might be wrong. He's still a toddler. Innocent. He is, in a sense, finding hisself. And I will do my best to let him learn from his actions, and be a guiding hand, constantly disciplining his young mind. But I will not punish or strike him because he wants to ride a pink pony instead of the red one. My daughter is only 8 months. But I can't even begin to grasp what will happen as she ages. And I don't even want to think about it right now.

Edit: words

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

He had a penis

Worst time for a typo...

I can't even begin to grasp what will happen as she ages

She becomes more beautiful. My daughter is my 'helper' always following and always looking to help dad, cook with mom, fix everyone's 'booboos' etc.

Set the example of masculinity for her. Show her how relationships between men and women should work through living it with your wife.

Deployment and training exercises are hard. My biggest issue was that I put the military first as I viewed that to be my job. I volunteered for deployments, IA's, took Instructor duty over something easier, etc. You have to balance the two lives you are living and you have to be able to flip the switch.

When you're home, you're home at work, it's work time. Don't bring work home and don't bring home to work.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Thanks for the typo heads up. He still very much has a penis.

And I like the way you explained the daughter thing. Maybe I'm dreading too much. Being 25 with two kids seems to be causing me a lot of stress. I'm not using this as an excuse. I just constantly seem to get the same generic "We are here to help" but when you actually ask for it, they kind of just say "Well, handle your shit." I don't even know what that means. I've never really had a mentor, let alone someone to show me how to deal.

I found this sub, and have started reading a lot of what people are saying, using their personal experiences to learn and grow from. Only recently did I realize I have this void in my heart, and the emptiness seems to be screaming at me.

Anyway, having a, for the lack of a better term, support group to read from to get control of my life is a start. And I've made the decision to stop living like a.. Hell, what's lower on the food chain than beta? (That's how I feel) And I'm going to put forth conscious effort to alter my way of life, get my confidence, and own my life for once.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I joined the Navy in 2006 (I was 19), married in 2008 (21), son in 2009(22), daughter in 2012 (25) - I get it.

This is a solid place to reclaim your masculine nature and fatherhood/marriage is no excuse for lowered standards or subpar performance.

Read the posts, ask the questions, take the actions and you'll be fine.

[–]Archwinger 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I'd take this even one step farther:

If your child is young and asks you, in ignorance, to do something gender-abnormal (like your son wanting to play princess dress-up), it's shitty parenting to let that slide.

Hey, if your son is 16, knows what sex is, knows what sexual orientation is, knows what he likes, and understands the judgment and consequences he's going to face, but he wants to buck social gender norms anyway? Good for him.

But if your son is 4, he's not asking to wear a princess dress to explore his masculinity or his sexual orientation. He barely knows that boys and girls are different and doesn't know what sex is. It's your job at that age to tell him fuck no, and teach him the rigid, expected gender norms, rather than letting him "express himself".

If your four-year-old grows up and doesn't know what boys are supposed to do, because he made a bunch of ignorant choices as a kid that you let him make and never learned better because you never taught him, and he's unhappy for it, that's on you. You fucked up as a parent.

I'm also sick of hearing about how girls are so marginalized while young boys get all the perks. The fact is, you can put your girl in to every sport and martial art under the sun, AND have her play with dolls and learn ballet, and the world high-fives you for it. You don't have that same leeway with boys. The people who want you to put your boy in a dress as some kind of political statement that reflects their values and not your boy's don't understand that they're a radical minority. In the real world, your boy can't do girl things without getting shit on.

[–]jacktenofhearts 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The actual interesting discussion to be had is in this comment. Everyone else is just circle-jerking themselves into what brilliant parents they are because they didn't raise their boys as girls the way some strawman feminists apparently prefer.

In the real world, your boy can't do girl things without getting shit on.

Exactly.

The problem is not gender neutral PC bullshit. The problem is if your son wears a dress to 1st grade, he will be made fun of and picked on, and even the teacher will be flustered because she'll be thinking, fuck, my job would be so much easier if his parents didn't let him wear that shit.

The PC bullshit doesn't exist. I bet very few people on MRP actually have spoken to parents with this apparently relentless commit to make their boys wear dresses and make their girls wear, I don't know, groucho Marx mustaches.

If your son wears a tutu to class, he's gonna end the day with a wedgie over that tutu. That's how shit works in 1976 and how it works in 2016. Maybe the kids giving him a wedgie gets suspended because of "zero tolerance" policies, but it doesn't matter. Your kid is a social pariah and punishing his tormentors won't make him any less of one.

Real discussion is whether we should just admit our sons are judged to a different standard, and raise them accordingly, even though it does technically just ensure that standard persists.

Because feminists aren't trying to turn our sons into girls. They just don't give a shit that everyone still expects our sons to be boys, while our daughters have free reign to be as masculine and as feminine as they want.

Should we?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes. Because as I've said here before: you want to protect your children from what you perceive as the toxic effects of the world but they have to live in it, so to protect them too much handicaps them. I'm just glad to see discussion of the topic. Men who have to "babysit" their children are plentiful and I'm sure you know what I mean.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I agree on both of the main points.

To drive the point home, it is the example and precedent set by the father during these early years that set the core values from which the boy will derive his actions from.

Beating him saying, no boy of mine will wear dresses won't be conducive to masculine growth or understanding. Teaching the boy that Men do not play dress up as they have work to do would send a much deeper and 'positive' message.

The 'fake alpha' will compensate for his internal beta fears by being Mr. Tough Guy which only causes identity issues and rebellion via being a 'male feminist'.

True masculinity should be shared from the beginning with genuine desire to pass the strength, struggle, and growth on to the next generation.

As for boys vs girls. You're absolutely right, there is a war against masculinity but, less discussed, there is also a war against boys impeding into 'female territory'.

To be blunt, there is a war against masculine men and boys.

EDIT

For the sake of discussion, /u/Archwinger you said, "If your four-year-old grows up and doesn't know what boys are supposed to do" what exactly are boys 'supposed' to do?

If you're implying mow the lawn, protect, lead, be strong, and pursue his mission in life than I agree.

If you mean boys are supposed to be in business, engineers, or construction than I disagree as if your boy wants to be a dancer, then that's his call and while not being what a stereotypical boy would do if that's his passion then following his mission comes before your preconceived desires for him.

[–]Archwinger -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

If you mean boys are supposed to be in business, engineers, or construction than I disagree as if your boy wants to be a dancer, then that's his call and while not being what a stereotypical boy would do if that's his passion then following his mission comes before your preconceived desires for him.

I think we have an obligation to be realistic with our children about a future trade where they can support themselves, and eventually a family if they end up marrying. If your 13-year-old son in middle school is barely passing math but doesn't think that matters because he wants to be a painter anyway, you need to straighten him out.

But if your boy's actually an awesome painter, you definitely nurture that gift, while also seeing that he works hard, aces school, gets a reasonable education -- then pursues whatever career he wants. If he can't feed himself as a painter, which many, many good artists can't do, he can at least feed himself doing something else while he paints for fun. If you raise a kid who can't feed himself, you fucked up.

Frankly, male gymnasts have some of the strongest bodies out there, many male dancers are absolute badasses, and while cooking at home is traditionally the wife's job, the huge majority of badass master chefs are men. As long as a boy isn't ignorant regarding the expected gender norms and makes an informed decision, he can do whatever the hell he wants.

It's those parents who refuse to teach boys how to be boys and try to intentionally raise them androgynous as some kind of political statement that piss me off.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

As long as a boy isn't ignorant regarding the expected gender norms and makes an informed decision, he can do whatever the hell he wants.

Boom, exactly

It's those parents who refuse to teach boys how to be boys and try to intentionally raise them androgynous as some kind of political statement that piss me off.

That was the premise of this post.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

Thought provoking post.

Rhetorical Question: If gender Neutral is real, why does there seem to be more gay, lesbian, bi-sexual and transgender people, GLBT, than ever before?

I have no issue with GLBT, but my belief is that PC has unintended side effects.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

That is an interesting question. Impossible to know if it's an increase in actual number oF GBLT or just a greater number of GBLT willing to claim that identity. My wife had a good friend who was gay and claimed he was born that way. His partner however once told us he felt certain his grandmother "made him gay" by insisting that he carry her purse. It seems ridiculous but he wasn't joking. I guess it's the old insoluble nature vs nurture thing. One thing I will say, they both admitted to having terrible, almost non-existent relationships with their fathers.

[–]mrpCamper 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Impossible to know if it's an increase in actual number oF GBLT or just a greater number of GBLT willing to claim that identity.

This seems to be the crux of the issue. I tend to believe a greater number are willing to come out. Makes sense to me that now that the world is more accepting, more people are willing to come out. For those that never came out and are older now, they may never come out because that is the environment they were raised in but kids growing up today are far more likely to have support. So, I'd just assume more of them are willing to come out.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I believe many effeminate twit losers are finding acceptance by coming out. Acceptance that they otherwise do not have the ability to get. Just about every late in life Coming Out person that I have known, just didn't have anything going for them. They gained some stature by claiming to be GBLT. Most of them were losers before, and now they are losers with a new group of loser friends and over the top PC sympathizers.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

almost non-existent relationships with their fathers.

I'm not big on feminized society issues, but the evidence is VERY hard to deny.

[–]Aechzen 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

There aren't more of them. They just have more options than they used to, and are more 'visible'. They don't have to become priests and nuns anymore.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Probably…Yes, just more visible. Again, I agree, there are more options.

I'm thinking that although there are common threads with GLBT that link to the PC view, they are not causal. PC allows more visibility of GLBT, but did not cause the increased visibility. A primary cause is more likely to be having more options, as you said.

Still, my rant is really one of PC thinking gone amuck so often. Really not so much about GLBT.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I have found most(75%) of the GLBT people I've met are like the fat chick's with dyed hair. Instead of raising their standard to meet the status quo, they make up am 'anti-identity' which justifies their failure by allowing them to be rejected but on the basis that they wanted to be rejected.

Then they find support with other losers.

If you're gay, alright. If you're gay because you couldn't find love straight, fuck you.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

like fat chick's with dyed hair….Then they find support with other losers.

Another point so graphically made!

[–]MeatCurtainRod 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Unfortunately, feminists realize the only way to push their narrative onto young feeble minds is to literally use the iron-fist-dictator method that we have always seen from them. I can't count how many times that a 2-8 year old boy is playing in an extremely politically correct environment like a daycare or indoor playground or such, being forced to play the way the girls do, and get devastatingly reprimanded when they just want to play the way they naturally choose to. And the idea behind social or parental influence on kids identifying with a gender is complete bullshit. Only a feminist mind is weak enough to accept mass media and social media as factual data.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

accept mass media and social media as factual data.

Are you saying the internet lies and some studies are so biased that their results that were published in 'peer reviewed' journals may hold no merit?

Come now, that's blasphemy.

[–]assured_destruction -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

whats the difference between hating other genders, or races, and hating your own? Nothing that's what. They are both wrong. That's feminism. Forcing a child to do something they don't want to do shows them their thoughts are wrong and bad. A sure way to Fuck the child up.

It IS important however to encourage children to try new things, and even push them when / where they need it. But if they don't like it, they can do something else.

Children need to be shown to be tolerant and understanding, but not weak and easily intimidated. Children need to be taught to do things because they want to do them not to get approval from others. Children need to be taught to be moral and truthful, not selfish and deceitful.

Do this and your kids will be rock stars ( I have 2 adult rock stars )

[–]adamalan -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This gender neutral garbage is like all the other clap-trap they've dumped on parents the last 60 years along with feminism and all that; designed for nothing more than to destroy the family and through that, our society.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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