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I was inspired by this and this to address the issue of discussion sex with our women.

Too many men are telling their wives they’re not getting enough sex, even doing it in frame, and finding what they think is success. Let me knock this solidly into your brain: you’re doing it wrong. You’re a pussy if you thinking discussing sex, even in frame, is going to result in anything hot, dripping, AND lasting.

Active dread and discussion can lead to higher quantity, but there is a ceiling in quality. What blasts through that ceiling like Wonka’s Elevator is passive dread, a.k.a., becoming awesome. There’s dozens of great posts on awesomeness, my favorites are here and here. This is why we broken-record the newbies to STFU and work on yourself.


Negotiating For Sex, a.k.a. Doing Dread Wrong, a.k.a. Abusing Your Newfound Power

You read a few sidebar books, enough to understand the basic theory and light a fire of righteous indignation under your fat ass. You start exercising, even lifting heavy, and go from 300 lbs to 285. You’re developing hobbies and man friends so you can check them off the Master MRP Self-Improvement List^tm. You’ve left the house a few times when she gives you the hard no, but most of the time you just go to another room and read.

So you think you’ve dropped enough beta to say something about your sexual needs. You tell her in no uncertain terms that you won’t take just her bare minimum anymore. You’re a husband who deserves sex with his wife, goddamit. You might say things like:

  • I deserve better from you

  • You should fuck me because we’re married

  • I don’t want to have sex with a woman who isn’t into it

It’s probably not a pretty conversation, but your bravado seems to leave an impact. Her beta is gaining some self-respect, she better up her game. She truly longs for an alpha husband… plus, she gets off on the drama of it all. You think, “Cool, that was easy. I’m The Man now. I communicated in my frame, and now she understands that she should fuck me more. Oh yeah. Red Pill accomplished.”

Here’s the problem. She’s still fucking you out of obligation. Sure, she might be temporarily aroused by your chest pounding, and she might even logically understand that husbands and wives should have sex. But SHE IS STILL NOT ATTRACTED TO YOU. You simply cannot negotiate that.

I once foolishly told her, “I cheated on you because you ignored my need for sex.” My wife will NEVER give me a hard no because I said that. But that doesn’t mean she can’t get enough of my cock down her throat. It’s still starfish sometimes, and ya know what, I gotta deal with it until I’m attractive in my own right. I upped my negotiating power, but it’s still fucking negotiation.


Earning Good Sex, a.k.a. Passive Dread, a.k.a. Just Being Awesome

You read. You devour both sidebars. You start lifting, and not just fucking around the gym. You’re taking your fitness and diet seriously. You actively research hobbies you want to start, then you go out and fucking start them. You STFU about problems at work. You internalize that you are alone in this world, and it comforts you because you also internalize that you’re powerful enough to accomplish anything on your own.

You don’t need a supportive, loving wife by your side. You actually don’t pay her much attention, and you’re not obsessed about your sex life because you’re too busy becoming awesome. Your desire to jack off wanes, you start to feel invigorated and free from the shackles of a sexless marriage. She denies you? Fine, you have better things to do, so you go do them silently and cheerily. You have no conversations about sex.

You dive into your hobbies, you’re out of the house often, and when you’re at home you’re working on projects and staying off the game console. You own the shit out of housework like you’re single.

You’re casual and funny. You’re busy. You’re cocky. You’re awesome.

Your wife starts to take note of your absences. She’s seeing her BB transform into an AF, and on top of that he’s not mentioning sex. “What the hell is going on?! My husband isn’t a loser anymore. What if he’s getting some on the side? What if he’s prepping to leave? He’s too valuable to lose now. Other women will want him. Plus, he’s HOT.”

Guess what? She’ll start fucking you with abandon. It won’t happen as quickly as Option 1, but the results will fucking last. Sex will come from her own desire and it will be hotter. She’ll not only indulge in your fantasies but will come up with her own. You’ll do things to her you wouldn’t be able to dream of with Option 1.


The Fucking Conclusion

Your wife won’t let you do doggystyle? You’re not attractive enough.

Wife still shit tests you regularly, especially during sex? You’re not attractive enough.

Sex is still sometimes starfish, even though she seems to want to please you? You’re not attractive enough.

She asks for things in exchange for sex, like speaking her love language, being more romantic, doing more chores, or giving her more massages? You’re not attractive enough.

Sure, you can wrangle some decent sex out of her, and it might be good for awhile. Don’t fucking discuss these things with her. Be constantly awesome and quality, lifelong sex will follow.

When she, unprompted, offers to do that one fetish you mentioned way back in your beta years sloppy, enthusiastic blowjobs, you’ll know you’re starting to get it.


Editted a couple words


[–]FearDearg2015Married- MRP MODERATOR19 points20 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Self improvement to the grave

[–]RealEstateRockstar2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

STFU and Lift. No negotiations, ever. Monk mode if need be... NO NEGOTIATION. Great post and story.

[–]alphabeta49MRP APPROVED[S] 25 points26 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

We need to get it out of our heads that we deserve sex from our wives because we're married to them. Technicalities like that don't make them wet for us.

[–][deleted] 6 points6 points | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]FearDearg2015Married- MRP MODERATOR3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Watch what they do, not what they say. They SAY they hate the red pill.

[–]TheRealMouseRat1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Feminists hate the red pill because it actually helps men gain power over women. However, women like it because they can actually be happy with their partners. Modern feminism isn't even pro-women, it is pro consumerism, trying to transfer as much money from men (who don't spend that much) to women who buy a lot of things.

[–]rocknrollchuckMRP APPROVED8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wow!! This is straight up truth here, stated in a way that is impossible to misunderstand. You knocked it out of the park! I think this should be on the sidebar.

[–]Vzuv5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I needed this. It's spoken to me in a manner that I probably needed. Thanks!

[–]mediamole5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm glad to see someone clearly articulate beyond "dread."

Fear can be a great motivator, but it's generally works best in the short-term.

If you've ever managed employees, you can scare them with losing their jobs to get them moving, but only for so long. Same in the military. Same with wives.

Dread gets them off their asses, literally, but for the long-term, maintaining high attractiveness is mandatory.

[–]MRPguy 7 points7 points [recovered] | Copy Link

New guys (and some old ones):

The stuff mentioned in the "Earning Good Sex, a.k.a. Passive Dread, a.k.a. Just Being Awesome" section does not happen in 1 week, 1 month, or even 1 year. It takes time. It took you x years to create a disaster of a marriage and it certainly will take x months to fix yourself and improve the marriage.

EDIT: ha! A down vote. Some poor bitch of a man doesn't think that improving himself takes time. Now that's funny.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

While I understand what you're saying, it certainly can happen in a very brief amount of time.

We're all playing the 'Improve to the Grave' game so it doesn't matter how fast you get there, all that really matters is that you accept you're never going to be 'there' as the finish line does not exist.

[–]alphabeta49MRP APPROVED[S] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It depends on how well he STFUs and develops his own life apart from his wife, AND how sensitive his wife is to his withdrawal. It can happen fast, but the vast majority of the time it takes many months, and probably years, because the men have let themselves go so much.

That being said, SMV is relative. If you're 100 lbs overweight, and you drop 50, you won't have a six pack but your wife will certainly notice and things will improve before you have the body of a god.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Exactly dude, I just keep seeing the message of IT TAKES 1 MONTH FOR EVERY YEAR being thrown at people. Sure, it's a solid guideline to give yourself as a sort of 'roadmap', but after 3 weeks of owning your shit the wife may just fall in line.

It's unique to the relationship. Focus less on time and more on improvement. If you're improving at the most effective and efficient rate, then having a timeline will only serve as a negative. You'll feel, well I should be getting blowjobs by now, it's been 3 months and I was a fuck up for only a year.

Instead, be your best and do your best and remove the weaksauce behaviors.

[–]alphabeta49MRP APPROVED[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yup. The left end of the spectrum is the truly feminist wife who ain't giving up the reins to nobody. She'll put up a fight, even nuke the marriage, no matter how sly he is about his improvement. Then there's the right end of the spectrum where the wife has been begging, sometimes verbally, for the man to step up and be the leader. My wife is 95% right side, but we've all heard blood-boiling stories about 95% left siders. AWALT, as in all women are like that. Not all women do that. Important distinction for men who like throwing blanket statements around like they're laws of the universe.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Important distinction for men who like throwing blanket statements around like they're laws of the universe.

Solid point and articulated much better than I was able to.

[–]MRPguyMarried1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Yes, always improving ourselves. Still, there is some point where we feel we have accomplished something. For some that may be reading all the sidebar material. For others it is losing 40 pounds. For others it is sex 3x/week.

All of those outcomes takes time. And, even if we reach those outcomes our wives may not care, may not notice, or may not respond. Therein lies the rub. None of it is about them.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I understand your point and I was making the point that there really is no 'timeline' to recommend. Even the 1 month for each year is garbage in my eyes, if it helps then it helps but I think it is irrelevant.

It is similar to the point of not focusing so much on the scale as you should on your body composition and physical abilities. If you only lost 10 lbs you may feel bad. But if you recognize that you've lost 5 inches off your waist, all of your lifts have doubled, and you've dropped your 3 mile run time by 4 minutes then the picture seems a little brighter and is more accurate in displaying improvements.

[–]MRPguyMarried0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well said!

[–]thrownawaypill1 point2 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

This post was fantastic, and might be the most timely to my situation I've read so far.

If my wife is putting out starfish, would a better strategy be to go Monk Mode than to try to directly improve the starfish situation?

As you said, ceasing to talk or care about sex is generally Dread, so should I take it to an extreme and be completely apathetic while in Monk Mode? Or should I continue to be aggressive and IDGAF to whether she's into it? It seems like apathy would hit harder, since at this point jerking it is no worse than the pathetic starfish.

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

If my wife is putting out starfish, would a better strategy be to go Monk Mode than to try to directly improve the starfish situation?

Depends on what you mean by "improve." Talk to her about it? Not so much. Become awesome as suggested very subtly in the OP is the lasting way to achieve.

[–]thrownawaypill1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I agree, I was vague. I obviously want better than what I'm getting, but would my point be more heavy-hitting if I just stopped making an apparent effort for sex at all? For example, she offers duty sex every other day or so. Should I just let her do her thing, and otherwise focus solely on myself? From my view, it seems that this would be better Dread than being aggressive and making an effort for something I know will be half-assed for now.

[–]alphabeta49MRP APPROVED[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

but would my point be more heavy-hitting

This is why I posted this in the first place: you're not trying to make a point to her. Do what you want and don't give a single fuck how she might interpret it. That is 0% your concern.

[–]mrprm1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If you haven't read NMMNG yet, I suggest you do. There is a section in there that discussing saying no to bad sex. Dr. Glover also recommends a moratorium, but I had mixed feelings about it and didn't do it. I've seen various opinions on that in this sub as well. It's worth reading though and you can decide best how to apply the recommendations for your situation.

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

The problem I have with OP's analysis is that you can absolutely use duty sex to get her turned on. You can use duty sex to Sex God Method her right into wanting to fuck. Also, injecting semen is basically a testosterone (sex drive boosting) injection.

I recommend taking Starfish sex and using the opportunity to go crazy on her ass. Make it hard, make it fast and make it deep. Then give her a light kiss and get up and do something interesting. The key is to not lay their like a helpless Beta ensnared by the almighty vagina.

[–]alphabeta49MRP APPROVED[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

you can absolutely use duty sex to get her turned on...

... but it won't last in the long run if you're not simultaneously improving.

My point is that if you're a fat beta loser and she's repulsed by the idea of letting your penis enter her vagina, no amount of duty sex, however cavemanish, is going to make her attracted to you in the long run unless you're on a steady path of improvement.

TL,DR: using duty sex to turn her on should be done in tandem with improving yourself.

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

you can absolutely use duty sex to get her turned on... ... but it won't last in the long run if you're not simultaneously improving.

Let me cosign this!

[–]spexerMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

You can use duty sex to Sex God Method her right into wanting to fuck.

I am working on this. In addition to SGM, is there any other sources or advice on becoming a better married lover?

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

is there any other sources or advice on becoming a better married lover?

My next book is an extension of SGM and will be called:

"The Joy of Caveman Sex"

Until that comes out SGM is the only thing we have.

Remember the desirability cue. No-Fap is very effective because it forces you to turn all your sexual energy onto your wife, thus making her feel more desired and therefore more turned on.

[–]MRPguyMarried2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

If my wife is putting out starfish, would a better strategy be to go Monk Mode than to try to directly improve the starfish situation?

Not always. Maybe she doesn't know any better? Are you leading her in the family as well as the bedroom? Starfish doesn't always = "she isn't into it," but it sure can.

I see you say she offers duty sex every other day. Many guys (and many here in this very forum!) would kill for sex 4 times a week.

[–]Nodeal_reddit4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I almost posted this exact same comment. If she's good to go every other day then maybe she just a bad lay. Enthusiastic but uninspired.

[–]Quarter_Century_Club3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Or should I continue to be aggressive and IDGAF to whether she's into it?

 

I'm brand new to RP and this is the approach I've taken. When I want sex, I initiate and see it through to completion regardless of her level of enthusiasm. The other day, I came upstairs mid-workout at 6am and initiated (we NEVER have morning sex) . Got a few soft no's but she was somewhat intrigued. Lead here into a spare bedroom and she laid there with her hands behind her head like she was sun bathing. We went through the motions, I came and went back to workout while she got ready for work. Gave no fucks about how it went.

 

My point for that story was that I want her to know I want sex when I want it and later when my SMV and her levels of dread are higher, I'll be able to withdraw attention when she's gives an apathetic effort.

[–]FearDearg2015Married- MRP MODERATOR2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

later when my SMV and her levels of dread are higher, I'll be able to naturally withdraw attention when she's gives an apathetic effort, because I will actually have better things to do.

FTFY

[–]alphabeta49MRP APPROVED[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You got it. That's a fucking fantastic strategy. Well done. Make sure to give FRs as you progress that connect the dots.

[–]alphabeta49MRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're getting some comments that maybe your wife is just bad at sex. While that can be the case, you better fucking rule out that you're just not awesome enough to make her enthusiastic. Even the worst lays will give their toothy bjs a noble effort.

I'd start by improving the shit out of my physical appearance and mastery of myself, then once you're a goddamn fitness competitor knocking shit tests out of the park, and she's still boring, you can deal with the issue verbally and directly.

Monk Mode is whatever you want it to be. Will going sexless help you focus on your improvement better? Then do that. Want to initiate like crazy while you're improving? Do it with the biggest IDGAF attitude you can pull. Pump and go, get yours and ignore her pleasure. If she says anything, tell her (supportively, not like a dick) she's responsible for her own orgasm and then STFU.

TL;DR: do what you want.

[–]Redneck001MRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is one of the best posts I've read here.

Great job, OP.

[–]calky0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well said. Thank you.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

The best thing you can do besides improve your body is use the word no. Starfish sex not pleasing you, pull out, get up and say, maybe another time.

My lady is still baffled why I go to the gym twice a day and get a lot of attention when we go out. Weird

[–]alphabeta49MRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've noticed a good 4-6 month lag between my improvement and her reaction.

[–]RocketManV0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Can it really be this easy? I feel the answer is yes.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Example # 1: Forced

Example # 2: Natural

If its feeling like sandpaper on glass - you're doing it wrong. It needs to flow naturally for it to work effectively.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

You are right in 95% of the cases.

However, once you hit the "enthusiastic sex" level some of us find that our wives still have certain sexual inhibitions, and I'm not going to settle for just whatever sex she is comfortable with and hope she'll do the fun stuff sometime in the future. I want what I want and I'm going to get it.

Look at athletes (or any other area where people achieve extraordinary results really). These people are highly motivated but few of them would push themselves to that level of performance if it wasn't necessary to get gold.

It's the same with your wife. If you're happy with a motivated performer, then ypu're good - and for girls with few inhibitions just being motivated will often be enough. But there are girls with sexual inhibitions; the girls that Rose tells us to avoid in Sex God Method. That's not so easy when she's the mother of your children, so you need to train her instead. She need to experience that if they don't perform and leave their comfort zone, there are consequences. She doesn't get the gold medal (read: get fucked) if she doesn't put in the work. I want a wife worthy of a gold medal in bed.

My experience with it is that these inhibitions and limits are actually very soft. It's pretty much cross them once or twice and they're gone.

Again, you're right 95% of the time; improving yourself is the right way to go.

[–]truchisoft0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

My little snowflake...

If you raise above her SMV like a rocket to the moon, she will lose all inhibitions, period.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

That's not possible, my wife has a solid SMV.

[–]truchisoft0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Higher than yours? Then your marriage is most probably doomed.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Maybe mine is a bit higher; I'm 39 and she's 35 and age hits girls harder. She's tough to stay ahead of though. She has a great face, great skin, natural blonde hair with extensions that make it look so thick, former athlete, can do 5 chin ups, 14% body fat, educated, makes $100k per year, has a $250k stock portfolio. If she got implants, she'd be the perfect petite.

[–]alphabeta49MRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Agree that sometimes you need to coach her, tell her what you want, manhandle her, etc. But my point still stands. Its going to be night-and-day easier to train her when she's enthusiastically awaiting your guidance, rather than negotiating sex in the first place, and then still trying to get all the fun kinky stuff you want.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah. You should be at the point where you can punish her by denying her sex before you try anything other than self improvement.

[–]alphabeta49MRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Another good metric of my RP success: if I cut off sex with my wife, is she worried/disappointed or relieved/content?

[–]chief_slap_ahoe0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Once again RP is about being the best version of yourself. Not being happy with an okay self or life. It's making the best out of what you got. Become the strong Man that everyone wants to be and people look up to. Great post.

[–]spexerMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you - great reminder of the harsh reality. I grow weary of this race, but this has added a dose of anger and determination to my steps.

I really wish sex was not on my mind so much. It would make all of this so much easier.

[–]spexerMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

You don’t need a supportive, loving wife by your side. You actually don’t pay her much attention, and you’re not obsessed about your sex life because you’re too busy becoming awesome. Your desire to jack off wanes, you start to feel invigorated and free from the shackles of a sexless marriage.

Ok - this is where I need clarification.

I would think that if I am being an awesome leader of the family an everything, and NOT continuing the constant pressure on her for sex (by hitting on her and teasing, not talking), then she would be on cloud 9, because she will have this awesome husband and low sex. (she claims low sex drive).

However if I achieve the above goal, become the awesome alpha leader of family, and I am hitting on her a lot because alpha man wants lots of sex - am I not still coming across as chasing her with her having the security that I want her?

[–]alphabeta49MRP APPROVED[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's why we harp that you must GET OUT OF THE HOUSE.

Sure, if you're awesome but she's still got you at home and you're not pushing for sex, you'd be the ultimate BB. We read stories all the time about guys who say they're fit, funny, and fabulous and their wives still hold the keys to sex. The difference is they care. If you're not getting awesome sex, and you're objectively awesome, then leave. Go hang out in circles that do appreciate you and where women show you attention.

THAT'S dread.

And if your hitting on your wife isn't getting a response, maybe stop hitting on her. Deny your needs for a moment, knowing that the reward is coming.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

My wife had low libido. We even went to see a therapist about it.

Now she gets angry if I fuck her less than every other day.

[–]spexerMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

that is my goal. Can you share a bit of your journey to accomplish this?

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I did nothing special, just read the sidebar and do what it says: lift, lead, hold frame, pass shit tests, etc.

I once wrote a recap of my first 6 months: https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/36qo8o/mission_accomplished_lessons_learned/

[–]alphabeta49MRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

My wife supposedly had "low libido"

FTFY

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Absolutely, "low libido" is code for "has an unattractive partner".

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That sure sucks! I mean, where is the Viagra for that problem? (Hint: The answer is still a little red pill).

[–]Njncguy0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Good post. Agreed. Just shut up and don't whine about sex. Even if you "win" (by whining) you'll lose because all you'll get is duty sex. Instead, make yourself as awesome as you can and increase your SMV to the point where she genuinely desires you. ... And even if you don't get the sex you want you'll at least be light years ahead in feeling better about yourself.

[–]alphabeta49MRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

...and you'll be prepared to find new pussy if she decides she won't fulfill the role of a submissive, sexy, loving wife.

[–]Sadbeary0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I am ashamed of myself for ever asking for sex. I aim never to do it again. If I want sex I will make my actions speak louder than words. Words like "kneel down" and "come here" may be acceptable as an opener, but it will never be a question.

[–]alphabeta49MRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Also, commands are only followed with enthusiasm if you're worthy of respect. I tried giving commands during sex before I started lifting or taking care of shit around the house, and was always met with a serious "don't tell me what to do, I'm your partner not your slave." Always be improving.

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