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Much of /r/marriedredpill focuses on improving one's attractiveness in order increase the desire of one's wife to have sex. But I rarely see any discussion of what constitutes a good sexual initiation. Even if you have a great body, dress well, and have a rock-solid frame, if you botch the initiation, you're likely going to be going it alone that night.

IMO - and developed from a few years of trial and error, interacting with the good people on the MMSL forums, and red pill theory - I believe that there are four parts, or cornerstones, to a good sexual initiation:

  1. Dominance
  2. Playfulness
  3. Desire
  4. Outcome independence

If your initiations are lacking any of these four aspects, then there's a good chance that your initiations are falling flat more often than not. Let me define each of these four aspects and give examples of what not to do. Note that there is overlap in ideas among the four aspects.

Dominance

Obviously, it's a common theme in RP that dominance (or put another way, confidence) is attractive. Note that in this case, I'm not talking about the BDSM style dominance, but simply being sure of what you want. Having a strong frame. The man who asks his wife, "are you interested in having sex tonight?" is not exhibiting dominance. The man who paws at his wife hoping that she'll give him a green light for sex is not exhibiting dominance. Plausible deniability is not your friend when it comes to sexual initiations. However you initiate sex, it should be clear to your wife that you are initiating sex. That doesn't necessarily mean ripping off her panties (although that would certainly be a dominant move). A dominant move could also be a slow caress, as long as it's clear that you are doing it because you want to, NOT because you're hoping to butter her up for sex.

Women tend to have responsive desire. That means that you typically have to lead the sex.

As a side note, I often see men complain that their wives don't initiate more. Believe me, I get that. But in the words of the great Athol Kay, "The bull doesn't complain that the cows don't initiate". It's simply not in her nature. Instead of hoping that she will initiate, learn to see signs of desire in the fact that she follows your lead. You want desire? Give her a compliance test; tell her to do something for you (sexually). If she complies, then that's a blatant sign of her desire for you.

Playfulness

I've seen so many stories of initiations that weren't playful. Sex is supposed to be fun. Make her laugh. Make her scream in delight. Chase her around the house. Tickle her. If your initiation isn't making her feel like she's about to have fun, then why should she see sex as anything other than a chore? If you just sit in a chair and tell her to get naked, you are being dominant, but you've left out the playfulness. If you just roll over in bed and start kissing her, your intentions are clear, but there's little playfulness. You can certainly get away with being super serious in your initiations, but in my experience, playfulness is much more effective.

Desire

Women typically have responsive desire. That means that, unlike men who have much higher testosterone levels, women rarely feel horny for no reason. Rather their horniness tends to build in response to stimulation. Furthermore, many women have trouble with feeling pretty and desirable. This is especially true for wives, who are often a little older, many are past (or quickly approaching) the wall, and of course many are quite self-conscious of what child-birth and time have done to their bodies.

If a woman doesn't feel sexy, then she is typically going to be resistant to sex.

If you want your wife to want to have sex with you, then your initiation must make her feel pretty and desirable.

Actually, you need to be building responsive desire in your wife from the moment you wake up. Building responsive desire prior to the initiation can be quite difficult to get right. On the one hand, you've got to build your wife's responsive desire and make her feel wanted. On the other hand, you can't be chasing her non-stop throughout the day. There has to be a fair amount of push-pull. The pull is when you walk up to her, grab her ass, and kiss her neck because she's so hot you can't help yourself. The push is when you walk away while she's still craving more because you're a busy man and have things to do.

When it comes time for the initiation, she needs to feel uncontrollable lust from you. You need to show her that you want her so bad, you may not be able to stop if she turns you down. If your initiation has confidence and playfulness, but feels to her like you can take it or leave it, then she's most likely going to turn you down. I've had my wife reject me, only to tell me later that she really wanted sex but turned me down because she wasn't sure I really wanted it. Show her your desire!

Outcome independence

This one should be well understood by the men who frequent MRP as we talk about outcome independence quite a bit. If by chance she does turn you down, the only acceptable response at the time is to act like it's completely o.k. Go find something else to do with your time to take you mind off the rejection. Better yet, have an idea of what you are going to do if she turns you down before you initiate. If you can be outcome independent, then you will build your chances that she will say yes the next time you initiate. If you aren't outcome independent, then she's more likely to say 'no' the next time you initiate.

I will say that I have had considerable success with my wife by hanging out with her after she rejects me for sex. If she turns me down, and I can maintain my OI while watching a show with her, or talking with her, then there's a good chance she will actually re-iniitate sex in a short time. YMMV. Also, I will point out that it took me a good year of practice before I could even stay in the same room with her and be OI after a rejection. For most guys, you're better off leaving her presence when she turns you down until you have really mastered OI following rejection.

Also note that many men believe the purpose of leaving her presence following rejection is to punish her for rejecting you. If that's your goal when you go do something else following rejection, then you aren't really being OI. Furthermore, punishing her for turning you down is passive-aggressive, manipulative, and living squarely in her frame. If you leave her presence, do it to take your mind off the fact that she rejected you for sex, or because you simply have better things to do. The fact that she will no longer get to enjoy your presence is a by-product, not the goal.

Cornerstones in action

To see how important these four aspects are to a sexual initiation, consider the following scenario. First, let's assume that you've been making drive-bys on your wife all day, building her responsive desire, and engaging in some good push-pull. The kids are in bed, the chores are all done, and you walk into the kitchen and see her leaning up against the counter playing with her phone. Now's your chance.

A bad approach would be to walk up to her, sigh, mention how rough your day was, and then ask her if she might be interested in sex. It falls flat for so many reasons. There's no confidence, there's no fun or playfulness, and you haven't done anything in that moment to make her feel pretty or desired. If you pout or get angry when she turns you down, then you've almost ensured that she's going to look at sex with you a little less positively in the future. Way to go, Romeo.

Alternatively, imagine if you clear your throat to get her attention. When she looks at you, you look at her like a piece of meat with a smirk on your face. When she shit tests you by saying something like "I know what that stare means, and I'm not interested", you ignore her comment, but slowly walk up to her and say some cheesy pick up line like, "Man I'm starving and you are the tastiest looking thing I've seen all day.". Your hands start to explore her body. When she bats them away, you persist. "You are so hot, I just can't keep my hands off you," you say while continuing to grope her. Maybe you tickle her a little bit. A big smile is on your face, and one is starting to crack on her face as well. The battle between your attempts to touch her and her attempts to push you away are escalating to wrestling. She's starting to laugh (although she's still trying to act annoyed). Finally, you pick her up and throw her over your shoulder. She gives out a screaming laugh, "put me down, you are going to hurt yourself!" You carry her into the bedroom and throw her onto the bed.

Now, that's a great initiation. She knows you are trying to initiate sex, and you are doing what you want to do with her body, even persisting against her objections. So there is dominance and confidence. The interaction is clearly playful and the way you can't keep your hands off her is making her feel desired. Even if she turns you down and gives you a hard 'no', she's had a positive interaction, especially if you can be OI to the rejection. As you walk away with a smile on your face, she's thinking, "God he's such a great guy. I'm an ass for turning him down." She may even be thinking, "I hope he doesn't go find some other woman!" With any luck, she'll come hunt you down in the near future.

Edited for grammar and spelling


[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Playfulness

This is a YMMV proposition. It depends on your frame. If you are a serious, quiet, stoic, deep voiced throbbing, piercing eyes kind of guy who is not playful this won't work. The actual answer is Frame: Develop a good, attractive one consistent with your personality and your goals and then show that to your wife- at least when she is being good.

Desire

One thing you miss is Kino. You should be touching your wife's bare skin regularly which is the best way to build responsive desire in women. Then turning this regular contact into sexual kino and hard initiation is simple and direct. No words are needed.

OI

Excellent discussion. Nothing dries up a woman faster than a man acting like a little boy denied his candy if he is denied sex.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good points!

[–]cegh8 points9 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Personally I don't recommend to other people your outcome independence strategy.

If my wife rejected sex, I would never go sit down and watch a tv show with her or talk with her. That's probably what she wanted anyway, so you just rewarded her for turning down sex.

Imagine you are single, bring a girl home you are dating, 3rd date. You want to have sex, she turns you down. You don't leave the room, you don't go watch tv and talk with her. You tell her to get out because there are other women who are willing to sleep with you. There is no such thing as last minute resistance with a wife, she knows you enough to sleep with you.

I stand by saying that if your wife refuses you sex, you withhold commitment ie hugging, kissing, talking, doing things together.

As a man, we need to have sex or release. You should act like normal as if nothing happened, because her actions don't phase you, but your actions towards her are different because she rejected you.

Just as if you were single, had 3 dates lined up. The first date didn't want to have sex, you don't care, you send her packing and on to the next date.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The way I see it, you can't negotiate attraction, and OI is sexier.

However, there are days when you are not on the top of your game, and OI will not get her horny enough to want to fuck. That shouldn't mean she just gets a pass on her marital obligations. But you'll need lube.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The way I see it, you can't negotiate attraction, and OI is sexier.

This.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I don't disagree with what you are saying in as much as the way I sometimes deal with rejection is not going to work for everyone.

I most often initiate sex last thing in the day, because that's the only time that we are both together and don't have little rugrats in our presence. So it would be nearly impossible for me to 'go do something else' if she turns me down for sex. What am I possibly going to go do; it's almost time for us to go to bed??? If I disappeared to 'go do something else', it would almost certainly come off as me pouting or being angry at her for turning me down. Furthermore, I'm not pretending to be OI. I really am OI, because I know that we'll have sex again soon (often within the next 24 hours). So if I can't have sex, my second choice for something to do would be to hang out with my wife for 20-30 minutes before we both go to bed.

Having said that, if I get rejected after an initiation first thing in the morning, or maybe in the middle of the day, then I definitely will leave. Again, not because I'm trying to punish her, but because I've got better things to do than sit around and chit-chat with my wife, especially if I'm horny - that means I've got energy to burn!

Also, if she rejects me more than 2 nights in a row without a good reason, then the next day (not immediately after rejection), I'll say something to her about how she's not meeting my expectations.

Obviously, if you read my past posts, you'll see that my wife does control the sex, and it is something I'm working on and something that is a problem for me, so it could be that you are absolutely right and I'm handling things all wrong. I'm just of the opinion that demonstrating to her that you are OI following rejection is more important than anything else.

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Initiate during the day earlier. Initiation doesn't have to lead to immediate sex. A flirty text telling her what you are going to do to her tonight will let you know whether to hard initiate later that night.

Or ignore everything I said given this:

I'm not pretending to be OI. I really am OI, because I know that we'll have sex again soon (often within the next 24 hours).

GJ

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Initiate during the day earlier. Initiation doesn't have to lead to immediate sex. A flirty text telling her what you are going to do to her tonight will let you know whether to hard initiate later that night.

Oh, I think this is part of the natural process of building responsive desire. I am frequently sending my wife dirty texts. Plus, I do have a slightly better success rate if I basically tell her that an initiation is coming later that day.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

ETA:

Imagine you are single, bring a girl home you are dating, 3rd date. You want to have sex, she turns you down. You don't leave the room, you don't go watch tv and talk with her. You tell her to get out because there are other women who are willing to sleep with you. There is no such thing as last minute resistance with a wife, she knows you enough to sleep with you.

IMO, telling her to get out blows it with this girl. That's not TRP protocol for dealing with LMR. If she's at your place, sex is going to happen. You just have to play your cards right, including appropriately dealing with LMR. A wife is really no different.

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I stand by saying that if your wife refuses you sex, you withhold commitment ie hugging, kissing, talking, doing things together.

This is my approach. I justified it rather overtly by telling my good Christian wife the Bible was clear that a wife denying sex was a sin, then when I have to jerk it another sin gets committed. This is not acceptable. I do think it is important for a man to be in tune with his wife's emotional and sexual needs and to not demand sex when she cannot be aroused. If you actually live with your wives with love and consideration it tends to help.

[–]DanG30 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

^ Agreed.

"Even if she turns you down and gives you a hard 'no', she's had a positive interaction, especially if you can be OI to the rejection. As you walk away with a smile on your face, she's thinking, "God he's such a great guy. I'm an ass for turning him down."

^ This is the Kay MMSL spin - to keep his women readers and clients happy. She controls the sex, I control the relationship. Rejection of sexual intimacy = rejection of relationship intimacy.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

IMO, OI is the most important of the four cornerstones. Every time you are anything other than OI following rejection, you decrease her desire to have sex in the future.

Sure, she may have sex with you if you bitch her out or complain, but it's not going to be because she wants to. And she's less likely to want to in the future.

The goal is to have a wife that wants to have sex with you, not one that has sex with you whenever you want it just because she's been harassed and threatened into doing so.

ETA: Check out this post on why you MUST be OI following rejection

[–]womanwithaquestion22 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I totally agree. I'm a wife who's the HL one in my marriage, and I was in a db situation for several years, which has mostly resolved itself now, so it can get better. In my opinion, nothing in life is more soul-destroying than knowing that the person you chose to spend your life with doesn't want to have sex with you. But truly achieving OI is the only solution to protect yourself. Otherwise, you doom yourself to torture forever, even if you leave the relationship, always wondering why they don't want you, and why they can't see or don't care that they're making you miserable. OI made me feel better about myself and allowed me to give up the anger I was carrying and focus on meeting my own needs. I had to totally step back, ironically using many of the strategies of the MAP, until he was able to meet me in the middle. The more I pushed him, the more he backed away, but the more I improved myself and got on with my life independently, the more he was drawn to me again. However, having said that, I think people in a db situation are right to make an exit plan in case their partner never comes on board. Life is too short to spend it with a db. I refuse to feel guilty for wanting sex in my marriage.

[–]DanG30 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

The problem with, "D) He is going to stay calm, relax, and act as if the rejection never happened" is that "calm" OI is effective if it includes continuing normal household/roommate duties. It is ineffective AND sends the wrong message if "calm" OI includes snuggling, date nights, back rubs, hand holding, pecks, etc. That is simply taking "calm" too far.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree completely. I wouldn't under any circumstances advocate continuing affection after a rejection. That would just come off as needy and weak. I guess that wasn't clear in the OP.

If she rejects me for sex, I will hang out with her and watch TV or sit and talk with her, but I'm not going to give her any physical affection. And if she initiates physical affection, I'll escalate. Every time.

Now I will initiate physical affection the next day (or maybe later that day if I initiated in the morning). Basically any time we are apart, I treat it as resetting everything when we come back together. The only exception is if there have been multiple rejections. Then, I'll start getting more and more distant as time goes on.

[–]womanwithaquestion22 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

This would certainly be a successful strategy for me and most of the women I know. After a long day being the boss at work and bossing around the kids, I'm tired of making decisions. Once I'm asked if I want to have sex, then my mind starts going, am I tired, how early do I have to be up tomorrow, etc? I'd rather my husband just jump me. Then I'm already enjoying myself before I start to question it. Also, I think men perhaps underestimate how much their desire causes a matching response in women, when it's not presented in a beta way. Most romance novels involve the strong, silent man restraining his ardor behind an iron self control until the incredible sexiness of the woman overcomes him. I always think that women should read westerns to learn about men and men should read romances to learn about women.

[–]DanG3-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Good to see you here ... AND presenting your perspective.

[–]womanwithaquestion20 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks so much. I have three boys to raise and I'm learning a lot. It seems like RPwomen is filled with young women still looking for the right guy so I feel like the issues here are more applicable to my situation. I've been married over ten years to an alpha who I've slowly eroded into a beta by accident. Hopefully we can turn things around.

[–]ColumbusCrewFan1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for writing this. You made some good points.

However, it seems to me that Desire and Outcome Independence are mutually exclusive. At one point you are overcome with desire (uncontrollable lust as you say), and then the next minute you are not angry frustrated or bitter if she then rejects you. Wouldn't it seem to her that your uncontrollable lust was an act if you can just sit down and watch TV with her?

My problem is that I have inner anger when rejected. I try not to show it but I honestly don't think I pull it off.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Thanks for your reply. The issue you bring up is something I wanted to discuss in the original post, but it was already getting long enough.

You are absolutely right that if you give into your lust, if you build it and let it envelope you, and then show her that lust in your initiation, it makes being OI following rejection so much fucking harder. I wouldn't say they are 'mutually exclusive', but they definitely work in opposition to each other.

But that doesn't change the fact that the stronger your desire and the better your OI, the more likely she will want to have sex with you on a regular basis.

The question is, how do you accomplish both? I'm not sure I have an answer, but I will say that there have been times where following rejection I've simply had to rub one out. In fact, there are times leading up to sex that I will tell my wife that one way or another I'm going to get off that night. My favorite is, "I'm so horny, one of us is having sex with me tonight."

I'm sure there are people on TRP that would argue that masturbating is a DLV. I don't see it that way. It's something that EVERYBODY does. Hell, my wife does it sometimes when I'm not around and she needs a release.

I think that if you are not ashamed at all about masturbating, and won't allow yourself to be shamed by anyone else for masturbating, then doing so after rejection can be a plus. The way I see it (and the way my wife seems to interpret it) is that it's a demonstration that I want her, but I don't need her.

Ultimately you are going to have to figure out what works for you. Let me know if you figure anything out!

[–]ColumbusCrewFan0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Point taken about working in opposition vs mutually exclusive.

Well, one time about a year ago I said (spontaneously) that it was either her or the cat. That didn't change her mind FYI, and no, I wasn't serious.

In an ideal world, a wife would say something like, "Well I really don't want to have sex right now and I understand how men's sex drives can be very high. How about a blowjob? Or how about sex tomorrow?" Instead, in the real world, I get angry and refuse to re-initiate for days or even weeks, making me even angrier.

[–]Gogo4u1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Something about this just seems...off.

I cant directly put my finger on it but there seems to be too much reliance on betatudes and...supplication? This reads more like something a woman would try to pass off as what she expects from her man in order to 'get her into the mood' rather than a real way to build real desire. Especially with the aforementioned double-talk of 'show her uncontrollable lust but if you're rejected be outcome independent'.

IMO this comes across more like 'chase your wife around with a buffet of possible afrodisiacs and hope she likes one (but if she doesn't just hang around and try again tomorrow)'. Maybe I'm just getting the message wrong?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think that /u/TheWolfMMSL's post is aimed at couples who are already getting along at least reasonably well. His tactics are not entirely suited for couples in a dead bedroom. That situation needs more personal work and dread tactics before you get to the playful stage.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Agree completely.

ETA: although if you are going to initiate sex early in the game when you are trying to get her to see the alpha in you, I would still argue that a solid initiation is going to be important. A weak, supplicating, initiation is going to come off pretty beta....

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Is it because it's written from a fem-centric point of view? That is, it focuses on actions or behaviors that men can do to increase the chances of getting her to act a certain way, rather than focusing on what men want.

I'm not sure that's quite supplicating, but I can see why a fem-centric point of view could give off that vibe. I'm not quite sure how (if even possible) one would fix that. Ultimately, the post is about how the style of your initiation can decreases the chances of her rejection - so the topic is inherently fem-centric.

I will say, however, that with the exception of being OI, I think each of these things are naturally what men want to do when they initiate. I've come to enjoy incorporating more dominance, playfulness, and desire into my initiations. Prior to TRP, I often tempered my desire specifically because I was holding back out of fear of rejection. Similarly, my initiations weren't as confident or 'dominant' - they had more plausible deniability - for the same reason; I guess I was almost tricking myself by believing that if she rejected a weak initiation, she really wasn't rejecting me because I wasn't really putting myself out there. Also, my BP brainwashing had me believe that dominance in sexual initiations was 'bad'; that I should suggest sex and let her decide, rather than push for what I want and force her to reject if she was opposed.

Only after TRP did I have the mental and emotional stability and strength to realize that it's o.k. to put myself out there fully and go after what I really want without reservations or holding back. So, for me at least, greater dominance, playfulness, and desire in my initiations is truer to myself....

[–]Gogo4u0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for the response. Reframing this as being based on a 'fem-centric PoV' does make it more palatable. Gonna roll this one around in the ol' noggin for a while and see if any gears start to spin.

[–]ZeeyardSAUnplugging0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great Post!

[–]TheGreasyPoleMarried- MRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, this is a great post. I almost didn't comment because there is so little to add.

Regarding the responsive desire... One of the first things that really clicked with me is "Foreplay starts the moment after you come".

You just had a lot of fun, now start tickling that responsive desire for the next round, the earlier you start the more likely it will be ramped up to fever pitch by the next time you feel like a shag.

Athol's "You're Welcome" after sex is a good first move for your next round of foreplay. Why not start here ? Why wait until the burning need has built ? Why not "get out ahead of the game" so that when your desire returns... You've got a warmed up and ready to trot woman waiting for you there ? Possibly tapping her watch and saying "Jeez, I've been wet as a car wash for 24 hours now. Glad you finally got around to initiating."

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is a well written post, good on you.

Sex is supposed to be fun.

This is what I view to be the single most important part of the entire write up. This. Shit. Is. Fun - ENJOY IT!!

I can't stress it enough that we need to be enjoying the fuck out of every moment in our lives. We are Men and some Men here have recently found their masculinity, stop posting about the 'anger stage'. Embrace who you are and never revert to who you were.

Sex is fun, foreplay is fun, fucking with her hamster is fun...

Like you said OP, having her enjoy sex is more efficient than making it seem like a chore.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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