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Let's have a general discussion on the subject! I'd also like to explore some specific sub questions:

  • In your opinion, what is the difference between acting to promote masculinity, and trying to make your man more alpha?

  • Where do you see the line in terms of encouragement vs manipulation?

Looking forward to the conversation :)


[–]Camille11325[S] 13 points14 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

One subtle example of not promoting masculinity: laughing at stranger's jokes when they are at the expense of/directed at your SO. I don't mean teasing that friends often do. An example would be if a waitress or cashier tried to form a Team Woman bond with you and make jokes about how all men are X, or she may make statements to your man about how he should treat you. From her perspective this is harmless, but if you agree with her and even add on to her jokes, what impression does that give your man?

When it comes to promoting masculinity vs making a man more alpha, I think the difference is that the former is about encouraging what is already within him naturally. You're getting out of the way so that he can be himself, or you're helping to create an environment where he can really shine, etc. Trying to make your man more alpha is (to me) about changing a fundamental aspect of your man (his dominance level) so that he suits your preferences better. We definitely support self improvement, but the key is that any changes have to come from within. He has to want to increase his leadership or any other traits and take the steps to do so.

[–]littlegoosegirlMid 20s, Married 1 year! 9 years total8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Trying to make your man more alpha is (to me) about changing a fundamental aspect of your man (his dominance level) so that he suits your preferences better.

I think that so many women equate dominance with being "domineering." Lots of people consider this a negative trait, I don't. But I also think a man can be just as alpha or dominant without being domineering. Men who are more introverted have more of an introverted dominance style and I think a lot of women just aren't looking for this. Obviously dominance style is nearly as important as his actual dominance level in terms of compatibility, but you can absolutely be with a high dominance man who expresses this in a style that is much more inwardly focused. I think oftentimes, women who are asking "how can I make my man act more dominant?" are actually asking for more extroverted dominance, not more altogether. I'm considering writing more about this at some point because I think that lots of people miss this distinction in personality (introversion vs. beta).

[–]Camille11325[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Absolutely! This is something /u/TempestTCup has discussed a lot as well. Overt leadership vs implicit leadership. Not every man is going to give explicit instruction or be expressive when in a bad mood. Some lead by setting boundaries and standards, others have their own style. There are definitely masculine and feminine versions of extroversion and introversion, as well as alpha and beta versions of introversion. I do think though that many men today under 35 who are introverted, are more beta and/or more feminine. Which only makes it harder to see the nuances that you're bringing up.

[–]littlegoosegirlMid 20s, Married 1 year! 9 years total5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I usually try to be as feminine as possible to create an atmosphere free of competition. That way, my husband is free to be himself and not feel judged or "bad" for being masculine. I have greatly reduced my irritation with his sense of stubbornness or pride, because I think that these traits are inherent to him and in 95% of cases they form a large part of his positive masculine influence on me and our life. The other 5% of the time when they cause slight irritation or stress are not significant enough to complain about. I apply this same principal to a lot of behaviors that may irk/upset me occasionally but actually affect my life in positive ways most of the time.

I would say that as far as encouragement vs manipulation is concerned.... I mean, the two absolutely overlap. I draw the line at "is this negatively affecting my husband (or me)?" If the answer is yes I back off. I am actually quite direct with my husband about what I really enjoy about his personality. I will tell him flat out "I really like it when you do XYZ" or "it makes me really attracted to you when you ___". He appreciates this super-direct feedback, because he doesn't have to play games to figure things out. I haven't defined "masculinity" in its entirety, but I have defined the behaviors and attributes that I find most attractive and exciting in my own husband. So, I actively encourage those and will praise them quite obviously. I also do more than say something, I will also act like I'm attracted to him lol. I think sometimes women are afraid to be direct, but men will often respond very positively to direct feedback. Is it the most "feminine" way of communicating? No. But, it is the most effective and specific. Sometimes I think "this feels stupid" when I just spell stuff out like that, but my husband is always like "this is so helpful, thanks!"

[–]Camille11325[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

an atmosphere free of competition.

This is so key! Each woman is going to have to figure out what this looks like for her but a dynamic where you and your man are on the same team usually requires that you're also in separate roles.

I have greatly reduced my irritation with his sense of stubbornness or pride, because I think that these traits are inherent to him and in 95% of cases they form a large part of his positive masculine influence on me and our life.

This is a great example of what it means to truly accept your man for who he is. Recognising that he is a separate person, whose traits are outside of your control, will reduce so much friction. Learning to move past labeling what you don't like as a "flaw" is also important. Obviously everyone is flawed, but our feelings aren't the same as an objective standard.

I haven't defined "masculinity" in its entirety, but I have defined the behaviors and attributes that I find most attractive and exciting in my own husband.

I think this is great because you're looking at what is already natural to him, not inventing new traits and holding him to that standard. We all have preferences, and I'm glad you brought up how there are some things you like more in your relationship - this is totally okay. Just thinking outloud but I feel like focusing on the positive ("I really like when he does X") is what prevents this from being detrimental to the relationship. If your main thought process involved thoughts like "It's so annoying when he does X" you're probably not going to have an enjoyable time lol

Is it the most "feminine" way of communicating? No.

I don't think that communicating likes and dislikes with to your man is unfeminine. Femininity doesn't automatically equate to being shy, reserved, or otherwise withholding your true thoughts. Perhaps you're trying to say that you're not saying these things to your man in the most charming way? Since you're being so direct and to the point, there's no flirtation or coyness involved.

[–]littlegoosegirlMid 20s, Married 1 year! 9 years total1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Obviously everyone is flawed, but our feelings aren't the same as an objective standard.

This is so relevant! One of my husband's favorite sayings is "I deal in fact, not feeling." He will not listen to complaints if they deal in "what if" or "I'm afraid you will __". If I can point to concrete data of what has happened, he'll listen and generally take my words into account.

Perhaps you're trying to say that you're not saying these things to your man in the most charming way? Since you're being so direct and to the point, there's no flirtation or coyness involved.

Yes! This is what I'm trying to say. But, in the moment, I'm not trying to be flirtatious or coy. I'm just trying to convey information. It's not cute, but it's also not bad. It's just... information lol.

[–]StingrayVC5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

what is the difference between acting to promote masculinity, and trying to make your man more alpha?

The answer to this is in the question itself. One is promote. To further the progress of something. To encourage and support. The other is make. To form something. We are not here to form our husbands. We are here to encourage them to be the men they choose to be (which is why vetting is so very important).

Where do you see the line in terms of encouragement vs manipulation?

Again, encouragement is support while manipulation is a form of control.

This gets to the basis of your question in the title. We promote masculinity by encouraging it. By getting out of the way and letting our men be masculine. That means they decide what masculinity means to them. We do not get to define it. The moment we begin to define it, is the moment we hinder it.

This is an excellent discussion question, by the way.

[–]Camille11325[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

We do not get to define it. The moment we begin to define it, is the moment we hinder it.

Beautiful!

What examples/advice would you give for women who are interested in learning how to encourage masculinity without crossing any lines?

[–]StingrayVC8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Back off. We are taught today that women are the definers of what it is to be a man and this is simply not true. Understand that, while we might be able to identify masculinity when we see it, enjoy masculinity, admire and respect it, we will never truly understand what it is to be masculine. We must trust and respect our men enough to stand back and let them be masculine with only our support.

So much of what we are taught is "toxic masculinity" today, is exactly what we find so attractive in men. This masculinity drives them to be and do what men do and if we were to ever truly lose that, what a horrific world this would be.

So, my advice is this. Stand back and watch. Think. What he is doing you might find annoying, but why is he doing it? Look at it from his point of view, because with most husbands, they are doing what they think is right by their family.

[–]Camille11325[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I know I'm late to reply but this is excellent advice!

So much of what we are taught is "toxic masculinity" today, is exactly what we find so attractive in men. This masculinity drives them to be and do what men do and if we were to ever truly lose that, what a horrific world this would be.

Yes! This x 100! This could even be it's own thread. Even women who strive to be good wives have to unlearn some of what they believe about what makes a good man.

[–]littleeggwyfEarly 30s, Married, 10 years total1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

For me alpha is one kind of man, which is sort of opposed to being settled and monogamy and competitive, but masculine men can be cooperative and a strong father. Also some things aren't alpha or beta but are masculine like physical outdoorsy work?

I think showing affection for masculine things is a good way to promote it, but for alpha stuff I'd need to maybe shit test more? Show more need for dominance?

I see encouragement as when good responses are done out of real feeling maybe exaggerated a bit, but you aren't in control really.

Manipulation would be trying a different trick if praise didn't work like criticism or being negative and then positive in a planned way so you control more I feel.

I think they can overlap a bit, though

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Acting to promote masculinity vs making a man more alpha - One feels flattering and the other feels like criticism. It's one of the ways I know I'm pestering vs celebrating my partner.

As far as encouragement vs manipulation - For me, encouragement is about his feelings about his own ability to succeed but manipulation is about my feelings around his possible failure.

I think this is a great topic. It reminds me to be aware of my motivations in my relationship and to practice being softer and kinder because I am aware.

[–]Camille11325[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Love your response! I agree I appreciate the reminder to be aware for motivations and actions :)

[–]doggobotlovesyou1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

:)

I am happy that you are happy. Spread the happiness around.

This doggo demands it.

[–]jef_snow points points [recovered] | Copy Link

Holy shit stockholm syndrome in action.

This subreddit is going to be studied for years by scholars trying to figure out what the FUCK these guys did to you to remove your free will like this.

[–]Camille11325[S,M] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This comment has been removed because it is in violation of our subreddit's rules.

[–]MsVerleihnix0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

free of competition

This always makes me cringe. Why does a man see his Woman as a competition at all? Why can there not be two experts in various fields? Various Masteries? Why do men need to have the last word to feel masculine? Is it there from birth ingrained into our genes or is it a societal stamp?

I have greatly reduced my irritation with his sense of stubbornness or pride, because I think that these traits are inherent to him and in 95% of cases they form a large part of his positive masculine influence on me and our life. The other 5% of the time when they cause slight irritation or stress are not significant enough to complain about.

Stubborness and Pride are a very slippery slope towards arrogance and bad decisions. I think it is sad that men rarely dress this issues in themselves. I will raise any future sons with a clear understanding of both

[–]conotocaurius5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Stubborness and Pride are a very slippery slope towards arrogance and bad decisions. I think it is sad that men rarely dress this issues in themselves. I will raise any future sons with a clear understanding of both

Stubbornness is the foundation of steadfastness, of determination, of sticking up for yourself and others, of doing the right thing even when it's the more difficult path.

Pride is the foundation of courage, of the drive to succeed, of the sense of community, of self-confidence, of resiliency and the desire to never stop trying.

[–]MsVerleihnix0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

You could also view it as two sides of a thing. Men are NOT perfect. Despite what the red pill wants us to believe. Men´s Flaws are simply converted into strength´s (Many strength´s are Flaws and vice versa) But any kind of Strength of Women gets diminished as flaw. Men seem to be unable to accept that women are way more valuable and important then they give them credit for.

[–]conotocaurius2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Men seem to be unable to accept that women are way more valuable and important then they give them credit for.

???

[–]littlegoosegirlMid 20s, Married 1 year! 9 years total2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Why does a man see his Woman as a competition at all? Why can there not be two experts in various fields?

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Separate spheres eliminate overlap and competition. My husband does not try and control every aspect of my entire life, especially the things in which I excel. He does not look over my shoulder and critique my cooking, or point out minor flaws in my writing while I'm doing it. He doesn't come into the room while I'm singing and tell me I'm doing it off key, or tell me the best way to apply my eyeliner. So why would I do that to him in his areas of expertise? We don't compete to see who can be the most feminine, just like we don't compete to see who can be the most masculine. Separate areas, separate specialties.

Stubborness and Pride are a very slippery slope towards arrogance and bad decisions.

This is quite an accusation. Perhaps you simply need a man who is less stubborn or proud, and that's fine. But I don't actually think these qualities are character flaws. This is why vetting a man is important. My husband might be too stubborn and proud for you, but he's perfect for me. I would caution against viewing these personality traits as something that needs to be "addressed." Attempting to "humble" a man out of his natural pride will only shatter him, or cause him to hate you.

[–]Camille11325[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The whole point is that NO ONE should view their spouses as competition. We focus on the woman's role here so it is more relevant to discuss ways that we can eliminate a competitive mindset in ourselves. It's also more effective for us to discuss what we can do/avoid doing to foster a competition free environment. This doesn't mean that the man isn't doing anything on his part to achieve the same end. We are all about both parties giving 100% to the relationship; this post is specifically about what WE do.

Why can there not be two experts in various fields? Various Masteries?

Yes this is the approach that most women here take. Each member of the relationship has their own sphere/domain. These often line up with traditional gender roles but that is not required in RPW e.g. the man can be the primary cook or the woman can handle the finances - whatever their strengths are!

Why do men need to have the last word to feel masculine?

It's not about trying to make him feel masculine, it's about recognising his inherent masculinity and acting accordingly. Refraining from dragging out an argument is a sign of respect. Many women have an argumentative streak or too much pride and they want to hammer home any point where they feel like they have the upper hand. Treating your relationship like a war will lead to resentment in your heart and your man won't find your company pleasant. We encourage women to let the little things go, to make their points in a way that respects their man and the relationship, and to have an "us vs the world" not a "me vs you" mentality. Not every woman needs this advice, some have no issue when it comes to fights. But for those who can't help but push buttons, say "I told you so", or other things to make their man feel small - that is not okay!

Is it there from birth ingrained into our genes or is it a societal stamp?

[–]Camille11325[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I pressed "send" too soon my bad!

Is it there from birth ingrained into our genes or is it a societal stamp?

We believe in biological differences between men and women, and we also recognise that our upbringings and the culture around us has an impact. The reality is that different communication styles are needed for different audiences. Your SO does not get treated like your friend, colleague, boss, etc. And he does not get treated like the women in your life that you love either.

Stubborness and Pride are a very slippery slope towards arrogance and bad decisions.

Every woman has different preferences when it comes to the traits she finds desirable in a man. The traits that /u/littlegoosegirl listed are not "arrogance and bad decisions" and the fact that you are warning about the "slipper slope" here is a good example of why I needed to make this post in the first place lol. To see normal characteristics and immediately equate them to a more negative version shows a huge bias against masculinity itself. You may personally have different tastes but that doesn't mean that her husband (or anyone else's man) is automatically on some horrible path.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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