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Recently /u/Camille11325 shared this post on the sub and while interesting, many people on the sub and the blog seemed a bit puzzled about the overall relevance the show had to wider society. It wasn’t a topic that I had much experience with, and fortunately Camille (an avid fashion enthusiast) took the time to explain things. She pointed out the fact that fashion influences trends, priorities, and is huge social driver in many ways.

The point remains that those who are in charge of shaping the tastes of the country are pushing androgyny and the inversion of gender roles. Even if the runway versions of the looks are more extreme, the concepts trickle down into ready to wear lines and influence magazines, tv shows, and celebrity choices. All of this influences the everyday person.

Link

You can read our full exchange here - thankfully she was very patient with me. :0)

I recalled the speech from Streep’s performance in “The Devil Wears Prada” which was brilliant and very entertaining to watch. In an abstract way, I understood that things happen on the runway and at the top of the fashion world, which then trickle down and are changed to meet the demands of different clothing markets. However, when it comes to seeing the path of how fashion filters down to mainstream consumers, I simply don’t have the familiarity or background to consistently notice and understand those patterns.

Only a few days after Camille’s post, H&M announced plans to launch an entire unisex collection which is interesting (and concerning). Furthermore, the collection will include dresses for men.

For the first time in recent memory, this unisex collection includes a dress.

The article praises H&M for being so forward thinking, revolutionary, and inclusive. The author clearly thinks highly of companies that go out of their way to include the ‘marginalized.’^1

It’s really nice to have a concrete example of how a runway show directly influenced, inspired, (or maybe even just encouraged) a mainstream company to pursue a similar direction. There’s clearly a liberal, feminist, inclusivity angle to this collection, but it’s really not as innocent (or positive) as many may be inclined to believe.

So yes, one fashion show may seem like a small drop in the bucket of things that are happening, but when we pay attention to how these ideas are perpetuated, altered, and filtered for wider and wider audiences - then we can start to see larger patterns hidden in the seams.


I am very concerned about the ‘war on gender’ and the neurotic idea being pushed by so many liberals/feminists that ‘gender’ is a regressive and damaging concept that is entirely fabricated.^2

Although the realm of fashion and how it influences society is new to me, I am far more comfortable as soon as things shift to movies and TV. I have seen and continue to see how movies and television play a huge role when it comes to influencing society. Look no further than social media, and the many fans that not only love when their favorite celebs ‘speak out’ on current events, but also to the many millions of people that are confused about why actors are butting in at all. For example, Beyonce is an incredibly successful singer, but as MyNameIsJosephine points out, she isn’t pushing feminism/BLM etc for altruistic reasons - she’s being intelligent and making calculated decisions that will translate into more popularity (which in turn will allow her to make even more money). The video also touches on how the behavior of celebrities will influence and affect the fan-base/wider public. Many people dislike when celebs or the ultra rich try to ‘educate’ and ‘scold’ the bulk of Americans while they’re in the process of virtue signaling because celebrities themselves occupy a lifestyle that is completely detached from what most people experience (which means everything they say comes off as condescending).^3 For example Streep’s speech painted MMA as some regressive, racist, white sport...when it’s actually one of the most diverse..

Understandably, it can be hard to keep all these moving pieces straight because everything is connected and there are lots of overlaps - but the motivation always seems to be the same - accumulation of power and money. The pursuit of wealth and influence is not by definition evil or wrong, and there are many celebrities that I like (in that I enjoy watching them on screen). Even though these things are messy, it is important to consider the larger implications that these industries are pushing for mass consumption. It’s insidious because it can be so hard to really nail things down and see everything clearly.

When you consider feminism, most people may have problems with it, but they either won’t fully know how to articulate their concerns (remember, criticism is often pushed as ‘racist/sexist/blank-phobic’ by liberals), or they get the impression that everyone else is ‘on board’ with these things. The way liberalism operates is actually a fascinating topic and I encourage everyone to watch this interview with Jordan B Peterson and PhD student Christine Brophy)^4 because it completely changed the way I thought about both extremism in general, and much of what I see happening among feminists and liberals today.

The US is undeniably dominated by liberal morals, ideals, and concerns - which makes sense in many ways because the arts and liberalism seem like natural bedfellows (pushing boundaries, creativity, turning things on their head etc). Not that conservatives cannot be great performers, artists etc - but everyone that ‘plays’ (or buys into) the liberal agenda will have a far easier time (and may even benefit from unearned exposure bumps) by swimming with the current. Noam Chomsky - The 5 Filters of the Mass Media Machine is a great short video that explains how politics, media, and policy are organized into an effective process that is ‘ready made’ for mass consumption (and acceptance). I’m by no means a communist, but I do think it’s worthwhile to think critically of how society is shaped, and the tools that are used to influence, define, and distract us as a population. Basically, when the bulk of the media is dominated by one agenda (especially when that agenda is more concerned with profit than fairness or even accuracy), a continual procession of lies are distributed day in and day out. When you tell people the same lie often enough, they’ll eventually accept it as truth (I can’t remember the original quote at the moment).

I know this thread is all over the place, so I’ll attempt a TL;DR:

Fashion (and movies/TV) drive priorities and trends that are eagerly devoured by the larger public. The liberal/feminist undertones to these trends reinforce positions that continue to: (a) trap women/POC/non-straight communities as perpetual victims, (b) the most incredible humans ever to exist, (c) ranks people not by merit but by their physical appearance. The continuing war on gender and sex will inevitably make things even harder for subsequent generations to date and marry (this actually goes into a larger theory of how the left/feminists hate nuclear families and want them destroyed so that the government and other groups have the most influence/final say in a person’s life).


  1. Note: I do not mean that gay/trans etc communities do not experience discrimination, I do think the only messages liberals/feminists ever send to the wider public are: (A.) There’s a massive number of people from all these communities that are routinely made to feel inhuman and the patriarchy is the only reason they aren’t ruling the world. (B.) These people are all above and beyond fantastic simply because of their skin/orientation/gender - so any criticisms are automatically racist/sexist etc. (C.) Only more oppressed/disadvantaged people can call out other POC/women/non-straight people. It’s a system that has nothing to do with personal merit, and everything to do with evaluating how ‘legitimate’ a person is based on the number of victim boxes they can check off

  2. Link in comment because I couldn't format everything properly by keeping it in the actual post - apologies!

  3. Note: Personally, I do not hate the wealthy or the upper elite for having a life I can’t even really begin to imagine. I do take serious issue with pointless virtue signaling however, and the constant agenda of liberals and feminists to both infantilize minorities/women/non-straight communities while at the same time militantly saying those groups can only exist in certain feminist approved ways (ie if you are a conservative black person you are called an “Uncle Tom” and if you are a traditional woman you are ‘abused’, ‘brain-washed’, and too stupid for your own good).

  4. The more militant/less capable liberals (PC Authoritarians) are protected, infantilized by the less extreme (more intelligent) liberals (PC Egalitarians). A mother/child bond is established, and whenever the child (PC Auth) is unhappy - the mother (PC Egal) assumes both innocence on the part of the child and seeks to justify and defend the behavior/reactions of the child. This is a fairly long interview, but it’s so insightful and really worth taking the time to watch.


Questions

  1. What do you think of the H&M line?

  2. What are some trends or ideas you have seen taken from the media and turned into popular trends?

  3. Are you concerned about the war on gender?

  4. Do you care when celebrities/athletes/musicians step into the political realm: (A.)Within their work (example a song that deals with racial issues)?(B) Outside of their work (example going to speak to the UN, turning an award speech into a political agenda)?

  5. General thoughts?


[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is part of the post - I had to create a separate comment in order to keep all the formatting

Even if you sincerely believe that there are no ties between biological sex and gender and how those things are expressed everywhere in the world (yes, in different ways from culture to culture, but there are certain universal concepts of beauty), how does it benefit your child(ren) to teach them that these things are irrelevant? You’re encouraging them to develop a sense of self, and a personal definition of sexuality that will likely be incompatible with everyone else they meet without hours and hours of explanation. In other words, they may end up walking around with a sexual language that completely cuts them off from other potential mates (and friends, people they can quickly and easily relate to and get along with), because literally no one knows how to read, interpret, and understand their identity and sexual signals without directly (and exhaustively) having those things explained to them. Socially capable people (and everyone else) knows that it’s convenient and beneficial to be able to quickly make some broad conclusions about people upon meeting them. It isn’t sexist, racist, or primitive - it’s efficient, and makes many subsequent interactions far easier when people can more or less ‘categorize’ each other.

Dating is already far more confusing for young adults today, because the general courting structure and procession from dating to marriage has become extremely amorphous. Everything has been muddled up, but at least the vast majority of people can still easily identify men from women. I do think feminism has over complicated the world of dating and sex (to the detriment of both men and women), and the hysteria over ‘rape culture’ has definitely soured relations between the sexes in different ways. I worry that with every subsequent generation the common language of attraction/seduction/bonding etc will continue to deteriorate and become infused with so many contradicting signals and ideas that are so hyper-specialized for the individual that they have more and more difficulty identifying with other potential romantic interests.

I’ve already heard more than my fair share of dating difficulties (both among immediate peers and online). People seem less outgoing and sufficiently socialized to function, and I say that as a fairly extreme introvert that has lived the bulk of my life having to be social beyond my means of comfort. It literally never occurred to me (until I was an adult) that I could reshape my life in a way that mirrored my preferences.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

  1. It's pretty ugly. I'm not going to buy that. Most of my friends are not going to buy that. Let's see how it goes for H & M.

  2. I'm bad at trends, idk.

  3. There are differences between men and women. I think the war on gender turns in on itself so I don't think we need to be super out spoken to try to stop it. Celebrate the differences between men and women in your sphere while you wait for the war to implode.

  4. I do not like preachy. I do not go to art to have someone else's morals crammed down my throat. Even when I share the same values, that's just not what I want from art. That said, I'm willing to overlook what the artist does with their time if I enjoy their art. So, I'm not going to listen to a song that says don't be racist, but I'll listen to music by an artist who spends time speaking against racism while accepting their Grammy. I think they're full of themselves for thinking anyone really cares what they have to say.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think the war on gender turns in on itself so I don't think we need to be super out spoken to try to stop it.

I agree that many liberal/feminist groups are really only 'united' by very tenuous ties, and everyone is very quick to turn on each other and try to establish the victim pecking order (the more of a victim a person or group - the more influence, power they actually have).

This isn't a community that focuses on being a political movement, trying to recruit people, and we don't advocate for people to protest or organize (if someone is interested in that stuff, great, but that's not what the community is about).

At the same time, this is a great place to talk about, observe, and criticize things that are happening. So while I don't want anyone to necessarily pick up signs and hit the streets, I do think it's important to analyze and be aware of what happens. I also think that 'celebrating' (as you term it) is a fantastic way to quietly show people that there is an alternative. The goal doesn't have to be trying to inspire change, but that could still end up as a side-effect of being content and happy.

I do not like preachy. I do not go to art to have someone else's morals crammed down my throat. Even when I share the same values, that's just not what I want from art. That said, I'm willing to overlook what the artist does with their time if I enjoy their art. So, I'm not going to listen to a song that says don't be racist, but I'll listen to music by an artist who spends time speaking against racism while accepting their Grammy. I think they're full of themselves for thinking anyone really cares what they have to say.

I agree!

[–]StingrayVC4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Politics is downstream of culture.

  1. I couldn't load your link but I searched it. It's not unisex. It's leans feminine and it's hideous.

  2. Herp Derp, it took me a couple of days, but I just realized I completely misread this question. It's too early for me to think of anything so I just deleted this part.

  3. I don't like it, but the pendulum is swinging back. It will get crazier before it gets better, but this is just doubling down in an effort the defibrillate the dead patient. I worry about my kids finding good spouses, for sure.

  4. They can step into the political realm or not. It's up to them. I hate it when they complain about the repercussions.

  5. Good article. It's very early for me, so I might have more thoughts later.

Edit: Thought: I lament the loss of beauty; objective beauty, in both masculine and feminine forms.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah the clothes are not appealing at all!

The bulk of my news consumption are highlights pulled from shows and talked about on conservative/alt-right/anti-feminist YT channels and forums. I do watch a range of TV shows online, so I do still see a lot of liberal influence there. As much as possible though, I try to avoid exposing myself to a lot of additional liberal nonsense, unfortunately I live in a very liberal area, so there's a certain level that really can't be avoided.

I think it's really unfortunate how controversial it is to simply enjoy men being men and women being women. I don't know why there's such a focus on turning women into men (adopting masculine values, mindsets, and behaviors wholesale) while also trying to turn women into men. It's horrifying and really sad, because you can see how unhappy people are even with all their 'enlightened' ideas and philosophies.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women want the "rights" that men have, but not the responsibilities. They want to free the nipple but they don't want to work in a coal mine.

[–]QueenBee1262 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Appreciate you writing this up, it's very interesting :-)

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks, it was a lot of fun! :0)

What are your answers to the questions?

[–]littlest_cat points points [recovered] | Copy Link

  1. It's not attractive.
  2. I know that trends trickle down to general public but idk
  3. Not really. Feminine traits and features are biologically attractive to males. Biology takes a LONG time to change.
  4. They are free to do what they want with their influence. It's theirs.
  5. I wonder if Instagrammers are picking this up because these days they are the ones controlling fashion(chokers etc.). Most young adults and teens look up to them for fashion advice.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Hahah I agree the clothes are not attractive!

Yes, there are certain things that are hard-wired into humans (and as a result human behavior is inevitably influenced by those things) - but facts don't really seem to interfere with certain groups trying to turn things upside down and inside out (in the case of some trans operations, that's a literal description!).

Yes, I agree that celebrities can do whatever they want with their popularity and influence - but I don't think that means they also should be free from criticism. I'm all for freedom of expression, and thinks it's critically important that people are allowed to voice their opinions (although I also think there's a time and place, for example, let guest speakers speak and then voice your disagreement during Q&A, or outside the actual event and don't shut it down).

I think instagram, twitter, FB, youtube, and personal blogs as well as forums like reddit definitely play a big role in perpetuating trends and creating interest. I'm not sure whether or not they are the ones creating new trends however, or if they are picking up on things that are happening in different areas. I honestly don't know enough about the origin of many trends to say confidently one way or the other.

I do think there's been a heavy shift to glorify and chase looks that have been mainstays in many drag and trans groups however.

[–]gingerspice999 points points [recovered] | Copy Link

Friend, I'm sorry but someone with a MAGA flair quoting Noam Chomsky is some pretty rich irony.

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/01/chomsky-warns-con-man-trump-will-drag-civilization-down-to-the-utter-depths-of-barbarism/

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

You seem to have selective reading comprehension. After I linked the video, the rest of the paragraph says:

is a great short video that explains how politics, media, and policy are organized into an effective process that is ‘ready made’ for mass consumption (and acceptance). I’m by no means a communist, but I do think it’s worthwhile to think critically of how society is shaped, and the tools that are used to influence, define, and distract us as a population. Basically, when the bulk of the media is dominated by one agenda (especially when that agenda is more concerned with profit than fairness or even accuracy), a continual procession of lies are distributed day in and day out. When you tell people the same lie often enough, they’ll eventually accept it as truth (I can’t remember the original quote at the moment).

I'm not sure why you think that someone has to be a communist to find the video interesting, provocative, or relevant. I am pro-Capitalism, but that doesn't mean I think the system is devoid of corruption, bias, and damaging agendas. Hell, many people voted for Trump because they are so tired of the obvious corruption and established system of bias. Particularly where liberals and the left are concerned, their identity politics and Victim Olympics are just convenient ways to frame their communist and fascist ideas as 'moral' and 'progressive.'

It's not ironic to examine many different ideas and refine your own ideas based on what you learn.

Do you have any productive contributions to add to the conversation, or answers to the questions I asked, or do you just like trying to be edgy?

[–]gingerspice999 points points [recovered] | Copy Link

Yeah I read all your post but I just find it pretty funny when people earnestly quote people who would be completely against all of their ideas. I just feel like it shows a certain lack of self-awareness. Kind of like when rich, liberal, capitalist celebrities walk around wearing those Che Guevara t shirts. Also Chomsky isn't a communist. He's an anarchist/libertarian socialist.

Hell, many people voted for Trump because they are so tired of the obvious corruption and established system of bias.

“I have decided to stop taking offense,” she wrote, “at the suggestion that we are buying influence. Now I simply concede the point. They are right. We do expect something in return. We expect to foster a conservative governing philosophy consisting of limited government and respect for traditional American virtues. We expect a return on our investment.”-Betsy DeVos, Trump's Sec of Education

And then of course there's Rex Tillerson. This explains his corruption better than I could myself.

His Secretary of Labor is the chief executive of a fast-food company who opposes a higher minimum wage and other labor regulations.

And who could forget the illustrious Steve Bannon?

I have never understood why Americans were so bought with the Drain the Swamp hashtag deal. Politicians lie. Water is wet. Fire is hot. We should know this by now. And this case should have been even more obvious to see coming, giving his track record of lying to the American people for his own gain.

Particularly where liberals and the left are concerned, their identity politics and Victim Olympics are just convenient ways to frame their communist and fascist ideas as 'moral' and 'progressive.'

Look, I'm going to try not to sound condescending when I say this, but you need to do some basic research into what liberalism, communism, and fascism actually are before you throw them around at people. You can do this with a few simple Google searches! The Internet is truly a wonderful thing! All three of them are different ideologies, so it's not really possible for a group to all at once be liberal, communist, and fascist. You seem to just be using them all to mean "scary people who disagree with me."

Also, both sides are guilty of what you call 'identity politics', so I'm not sure what you're getting at with that.

Edit: On another note, why are you even here? Saw it linked on another sub, decided to check it out. I have the suspicion that I won't last long, though.

[–]Camille11325[M] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There is so much wrong with your comments I don't even know where to begin!

You clearly haven't read a single rule or wiki page because if you had you'd know that this is a community for likeminded women, not a debate sub. You'd also know that we do not tolerate disrespect shown towards moderators. /u/PhantomDream09 was clear about why she included something by Chomsky, there is nothing "ironic" about using a relevant source to provide further information on a subject. How arrogant of you to attempt to correct her for a perfectly valid choice. You have zero clue about her level of knowledge regarding political ideologies and yet you lecture her as if she is retarded? How on earth is that an appropriate response?

Yeah I read all your post but I just find it pretty funny when people earnestly quote people who would be completely against all of their ideas. I just feel like it shows a certain lack of self-awareness.

I don't think you know what "earnestly" means because it doesn't apply at all to this situation. You also might want to look up the definition of "self awareness" because it definitely applies to instances where a person accurately explains what they are doing and why...

Based on these comments alone you have a very shallow understanding of political ideology, especially as related to America. The fact that you chose to mock and condescend instead of ask followup questions reveals a lot about your character. Did it cross your mind that you could be wrong? Did you even consider that your opinion might not even be wanted? As if an established member of our community needs your special insight into politics! You're already banned and I know she doesn't feel the need to justify herself to someone like you but I'm in a ranty mood atm so here I am informing you that your assumptions were wrong and make you look stupid.

Idk if you have terrible social skills or it's just the fact that you're foreign (or both) but you should really work on not sounding like a tryhard teenager.

That's all from me, Happy St. Patrick's Day

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

  1. You are incredibly condescending.

  2. By your logic, people should only agree with, examine, or think about things that already agree with their point of view. That's the kind of intellectually dishonest logic I really don't care about or have time for.

  3. I don't find any issue with the Betsy DeVos quote. Conservatives and Republicans want influence and majority positions so that some of the damage that has been incurred by the left's relentless march to undermine the country, incite violence and racial tension, and demonize anyone that doesn't agree with them can be stemmed and reversed.

  4. I'm glad you have everything figured out, your thoughts, values and opinions do not reflect my own - which is fine. You start from a place of dishonesty, and as a self admitted foreigner, seem to think of yourself as superior to Americans because I don't know why.

You don't have to worry about whether or not you'll be posting here in the future - I'll show you the door. :0)

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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