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[–]sugarcrush7 points8 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I think she went from one extreme (nagging about everything) to another (no boundaries apparently?). It's possible to have reasonable boundaries and communicate them in healthy ways. For example, I would leave my husband if he wanted an open marriage, decided he no longer wanted children, became abusive, etc. Are those not boundaries? Additionally, if he were to say something extremely harsh without cause, I do think it's appropriate to say something like "That was a very hurtful thing to say. Please speak to me more respectfully." Personally, I find just saying "ouch" to be a bit childish.

I'm not really sure what she's trying to say about boundaries with the job example... to me, it reads more like she was the one crossing boundaries than an example of her setting one and it backfiring. I think that's a better example of why it's bad to be passive-aggressive than why it's bad to set boundaries.

I think Laura Doyle has some good ideas, but in my overall opinion she tends to take things too far, and this article falls into that category for me.

[–]Camille11325[S] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Agreed! And omg YES I don't get the "ouch" thing at all. It would be one thing if it was a half joke/teasing. But if you want an actual change to happen you have to be more specific. Personally I wouldn't say "That was a very hurtful thing to say. Please speak to me more respectfully" if M was angry that would just make him angrier lol. I have said things like "When you say X, it makes me feel Y, because Z". It's more in line with the idea of bringing him your problem (I feel bad) not your solution (I will dictate your language). It'll definitely vary based on the personalities and unique relationship dynamic of the couple!

[–]sugarcrush1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes that sounds much better! My husband is the most even tempered person ever so I've never really been in that situation before.

[–]TempestTcup points points [recovered] | Copy Link

I think Laura Doyle has some good ideas, but in my overall opinion she tends to take things too far, and this article falls into that category for me.

Yes, I follow her on twitter, and whereas she has some good stuff, most of it is way too passive for me; I just really don't relate that much to her. To me it seems like taking yielding and deference to her extreme would be almost demeaning my husband, like he was too fragile to withstand the slightest ill wind.

[–]Camille11325[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is a really good point!

[–]violetpiecrisis2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I feel like all of the anecdotes she sites are reactionary "boundaries". They seem closer to threats or ultimatums because they are in response to things that have already occurred.

I think healthy boundaries definitely exist! In my opinion, it's perfectly fine to say "I am not comfortable with x, y, and z." Discussion can be had in a productive way that isn't meant to chastise anyone, and compromises can be struck. The idea that it's unhealthy for my marriage for me to tell my husband that I don't like being touched a certain way, that I don't want to have certain discussions in front of our children, or that I would like personal time to engage in a relaxing activity in private seems backwards. Boundaries, in the context of my relationship and marriage, are conversations that were necessary for me to have.

[–]Camille11325[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Curious to hear what everyone thinks about this article. What parts do you agree with, where do you disagree? How does this apply to your own experiences? I'll be reflecting on these ideas myself and I look forward to discussing the angles with you all later :)

[–]cats_or_get_out points points [recovered] | Copy Link

I usually love her work, but this leaves me scratching my head.

Her example about helping him find a job is an example of having no boundaries. Having boundaries means respecting that his responsibilities are his. A large part of RPWi is about respecting the boundaries between a man and a woman. The captain and first mate dynamic is predicated on boundaries.

I agree that people misunderstand boundaries. A boundary will not get others "to straighten up," but they will help you from joining them in crazy land. For example, I can be kind and open to my relatives who are quarreling with each other because I choose not to entangle myself in their private battle with each other.

I think Doyle is on to something here, but I think her ideas in the article are not rigorously developed (yet).

[–]Camille11325[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes this mirrors my thoughts exactly. I like the concept of changing the way we think about the idea of boundaries, but not the conclusions that she reached. Women today absolutely create bad boundaries or boundaries for the wrong reasons, but is the solution to basically do away with them entirely? I don't think so.

I forget who said this but Laura Doyle's work is apparently really good for women who have issues relinquishing control. I've never read The Surrendered Wife and I've only seen a few things from her blog but a lot of it just doesn't seem applicable to me personally. Perhaps it is because I am LH, and her audience may be mostly HL.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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